Rogue one.

[Darth Logos]

So, we are still left to wonder the fate of Kanan and Ezra (and Ahsoka).  Since Vader and the Inquisitors whole job were to hunt them down.  I wonder how they wil explain that in the new canon...was Tarkin just not privy to that mission

There's one word that was accidentally omitted from Tarkin's quote that changes the level of "extinction"

"The Jedi are all but extinct..." I took this to mean that there are still some, but not enough to pose a major threat to the Empire.

But also considering the second half of that quote, "...You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." suggests that the original concept of the Emperor was not Force sensitive. Then by the time ROTJ was done, we all find out that Vader is just a tool of one with real power.

[Master Seblaise]

There's one word that was accidentally omitted from Tarkin's quote that changes the level of "extinction"

"The Jedi are all but extinct..." I took this to mean that there are still some, but not enough to pose a major threat to the Empire.

But also considering the second half of that quote, "...You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." suggests that the original concept of the Emperor was not Force sensitive. Then by the time ROTJ was done, we all find out that Vader is just a tool of one with real power.

I took the quote on IMDB website ... The french version of "A New Hope" is just awful so i can not rely on it to discuss that point lol

So if there is a "but", you should be right

[scifidude79]

But also considering the second half of that quote, "...You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." suggests that the original concept of the Emperor was not Force sensitive. Then by the time ROTJ was done, we all find out that Vader is just a tool of one with real power.

Yeah, it's possible they hadn't decided to make the Emperor a Sith at that time.  However, it was easily explained in later stories that he hid his power, thus nobody but a select few knew he was the Sith Master.  Obviously, Tarkin wasn't part of the inner circle that knew of Palpatine's true power.

In the Prologue for the original novel, which is based on near final screenplays of the film, they give a brief synopsis of events so far.  In that version, Palpatine is a recluse who doesn't really rule the Empire.  Instead, those closest to him wield the real power and Palpatine is more or less powerless.  That, of course, is not how it wound up being, but it gives you an idea of the type of character that George originally planned Palpatine to be.  Obviously, when he did The Empire Strikes Back, he changed all of that and made Palpatine Vader's master.  (though, according to him, the had the trilogy "all mapped out ahead of time." )

[Lord Sidious]

There's one word that was accidentally omitted from Tarkin's quote that changes the level of "extinction"

"The Jedi are all but extinct..." I took this to mean that there are still some, but not enough to pose a major threat to the Empire.

But also considering the second half of that quote, "...You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." suggests that the original concept of the Emperor was not Force sensitive. Then by the time ROTJ was done, we all find out that Vader is just a tool of one with real power.

Sorry, I disagree. It does not suggest the Emperor was not Force sensitive in E4. Reading it literally suggests just that - the Emperor considered him as the last of the Jedi, "of their religion". The key word I would underline instead is "their" - meaning the Jedi order, not the Force in general. Sith hates the Jedi, it is always "them versus us". It makes perfect sense for the Emperor to consider Vader as the last of the Jedi's old order.

[Darth Logos]

Sorry, I disagree. It does not suggest the Emperor was not Force sensitive in E4. Reading it literally suggests just that - the Emperor considered him as the last of the Jedi, "of their religion". The key word I would underline instead is "their" - meaning the Jedi order, not the Force in general. Sith hates the Jedi, it is always "them versus us". It makes perfect sense for the Emperor to consider Vader as the last of the Jedi's old order.

A) The Emperor views weren't even on the table for this movie conversation
B) I think it's safe to assume that neither the Emperor nor Tarkin revere Vader as Jedi.

ANH was made before the concept of the Sith was ever dreamed up. This is evident when Obi-Wan calls Vader "Darth" during their duel. "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." This suggests that Darth is a first name, and not a title. He further demonstrates this point when recanting the "demise" of Anakin Skywalker. "A young Jedi named Darth Vader...yada yada yada." At this point in the SW universe, we know that anyone called Darth Whatever is no Jedi.

[Obese Wan Kenobese]

What each one said was true from a certain point of view.

[Darth Tepes]

A) The Emperor views weren't even on the table for this movie conversation
B) I think it's safe to assume that neither the Emperor nor Tarkin revere Vader as Jedi.

ANH was made before the concept of the Sith was ever dreamed up. This is evident when Obi-Wan calls Vader "Darth" during their duel. "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." This suggests that Darth is a first name, and not a title. He further demonstrates this point when recanting the "demise" of Anakin Skywalker. "A young Jedi named Darth Vader...yada yada yada." At this point in the SW universe, we know that anyone called Darth Whatever is no Jedi.

The novelization of ANH identifies Vader as a Dark Lord of the Sith.  So the concept was there from the beggining, just not fleshed out as it would become.

[Obese Wan Kenobese]

Names, titles, language. What if it were Captain Vader?

"You can't win, Captain."

"Now, I am the master...and don't call me Shirley." 

[Lord Sidious]

Obi-wan could call Vader "Darth" if he wished to, it doesn't logically imply anything. Just the same Obi-wan became known as "Ben". Indeed, you could even argue one step further, the very opposite in fact, that Obi-wan was calling Vader "Darth" deliberately to say "you are a Sith" because all Siths have the "Darth" title!

It may well be the case that it was not fleshed out by Lucas, but from a plot's point of view, purely in context of what we see in the movies, there is nothing concrete to suggest there was no Sith idea or that the Emperor was not Force sensitive in Episode 4. So the continuity of the idea of Sith and force sensitive Emperor/Palpatine remained in the background when viewed from Episodes 1 to 6.

[Darth Logos]

The novelization of ANH identifies Vader as a Dark Lord of the Sith.  So the concept was there from the beggining, just not fleshed out as it would become.

What is the copyright on the novelization?

Names, titles, language. What if it were Captain Vader?

"You can't win, Captain."

"Now, I am the master...and don't call me Shirley." 

You raise a valid point. One that I've thought of before. (+1 for laugh, too) However, I cannot remember any other instances of this happening in the movies, and my readings of the OEU are limited. To the best of my recollection, the only other time the word Darth is spoken outside of the 3rd person is when Yoda says "...or should I call you Darth Sidious?"

[scifidude79]

What is the copyright on the novelization?

1976.  So, it came out before the film.  Alan Dean Foster ghost wrote it based on near final versions of the filming script, as well as notes and whatnot from George Lucas.  So, yes, Darth Vader was a Dark Lord of the Sith even in the original film.  Though, what a Dark Lord of the Sith is was never explained.

[Darth Logos]

Obi-wan could call Vader "Darth" if he wished to, it doesn't logically imply anything. Just the same Obi-wan became known as "Ben". Indeed, you could even argue one step further, the very opposite in fact, that Obi-wan was calling Vader "Darth" deliberately to say "you are a Sith" because all Siths have the "Darth" title!

It may well be the case that it was not fleshed out by Lucas, but from a plot's point of view, purely in context of what we see in the movies, there is nothing concrete to suggest there was no Sith idea or that the Emperor was not Force sensitive in Episode 4. So the continuity of the idea of Sith and force sensitive Emperor/Palpatine remained in the background when viewed from Episodes 1 to 6.

Actually, the so-called "Sith" of the Brotherhood of Darkness did not use the Darth Title. They only ever went by "Lord _____". (Not sure if the women were referred to as "Lady".) According to Bane, they were to afraid of the power associated with it. When Bane assumed his position as the Sith-ari he brought the title back into use.

As for Obi-wan being called Ben. Let's see...Obi-wan, hero of the Clone Wars vs. Ben, desert hermit of the Jundland Wastes. Which name would you use if you were the target of the Empire's Purge?

1976.  So, it came out before the film.  Alan Dean Foster ghost wrote it based on near final versions of the filming script, as well as notes and whatnot from George Lucas.  So, yes, Darth Vader was a Dark Lord of the Sith even in the original film.  Though, what a Dark Lord of the Sith is was never explained.

Hmmm....

[Lord Sidious]

So it's open ended. Essentially nothing concrete to suggest from the movie that no Sith existed per se.

Vader and Palpatine were the only Sith in Episode 1. Obi-wan's recognition of it by greeting Vader as "Darth" was the first time that they physically made contact after he nearly killed Anakin on Mustafar. Now it is a fight to the death in the Death Star. Well of course Obi-wan would likely recognize Vader as a Sith and probably greet him as one - "Darth" makes perfect sense. Even Vader said to himself that he felt something "not since ....". So it makes perfect sense to me for Obi-wan to call Vader "Darth" - you are a Sith!!!!

[Darth Logos]

So it's open ended. Essentially nothing concrete to suggest from the movie that no Sith existed per se.

Vader and Palpatine were the only Sith in Episode 1. Obi-wan's recognition of it by greeting Vader as "Darth" was the first time that they physically made contact after he nearly killed Anakin on Mustafar. Now it is a fight to the death in the Death Star. Well of course Obi-wan would likely recognize Vader as a Sith and probably greet him as one - "Darth" makes perfect sense. Even Vader said to himself that he felt something "not since ....". So it makes perfect sense to me for Obi-wan to call Vader "Darth" - you are a Sith!!!!

Just out of morbid curiosity, how old are you? I only ask because their may be a generational gap between our views.

I'll give you a minute to correct your mistake.

I've also given credit to the notion that part of the character of Kenobi developed in the prequels & TCW to be cheeky. Almost a Jedi form of Don Mach. Calling him Darth irreverently may have been a dig. But I really just think the everyone thought Vader's first name was Darth. Similar to how speculation has begun to appear questioning if Kylo is a name or title.

[Obese Wan Kenobese]

Vader and Palpatine in episode 4. Episode 1 had Maul.

I was a child of the first three films. I never really thought about Darth as name or a title, exclusively. I suppose everyone referred to him as Darth or Vader or Darth Vader, but I didn't fully realize Darth was specifically a surname until Darth Maul. Thus, I was uncomfortable when Kylo Ren came along without Darth. I had to read about the Knights of Ren. So, is he even a Sith? Now, I'm getting more into the books and more details than what I learned from KOTOR, the game.

We lose ideology, I think, with all our forms and stages of Sith and Jedi and grey Jedi and so on. Knights doesn't fit Sith as seen before with the dark side representing power hungry evil.