Saber Forum

So more of an opinion chat here, but upon reading the novelization of ROTS, I began to see that the council was a lot more aggressive and demeaning of Anakin than they were in the movies, along with the fact that some of the chapters involve discussions of the jedi actually suggesting that they take over the republic to protect it from corruption, and though their intentions may have been good, it was difficult to feel bad for all of them at order 66...any thoughts?

The Consensus (Even Luke says so) is that the Jedi shot themselves in the foot. Did they deserve to be nearly wiped out...no.  But their hubris and actions lead to their own demise. Especially the council's treatment of Anakin.

The Jedi of the prequels are a prime example of "Pride comes before a fall".  The same thing holds true for the Empire and the First Order.  Just another life lesson you can learn from Star Wars.

An in-depth analysis of the Jedi Order as the supposed "good guys" of Star Wars is really a fascinating one. A cursory viewing of the Prequels tends to give you the overall theme but really the more you look into it, the more it becomes super obvious that they really aren't the pillars of enlightenment and justice that we tend to associate them with. The Clone Wars series really had the time to flesh that out, to pull out an example, especially around the episodes that dealt with Anakin's brush with his past of slavery. I mean it's a practice that is banned in the Republic and yet whole planets and cartels are involved in it, meanwhile the Jedi sit in their tall towers and debate pointlessly. It just goes to highlight how the Order's traditions and norms grew to a point where few dared to point out how damaging they were (looking at you Qui-gon Jinn). It makes them MUCH more interesting characters though, in my opinion, and Star Wars is all the better because of it.

Interestingly, looking at the Darth Bane trilogy, one could argue that the Sith had betrayed their very nature as well... fascinating.

Perhaps that was a smaller note of the Grand Plan coupled with the Rule of Two. The severely diminished number of Sith gave rise to the myth that the Sith were extinct, allowing the Jedi to grow arrogant that they were unchallenged in the galaxy, and that they were the ultimate good.

I just finished the arc of Obi Wan going under cover. Along with several other arcs, the series is actually doing an exceptionally subtle and well executed show of the Jedi falling apart due to the war. Anger, fear, deception, and aggression are all coming out. For all my griping of the Filoni-ous shark jumps in TCW, this is actually being surprisingly well done.

You are referring to the Brotherhood of Darkness?

You mean the Kenobi novel? I've got that in my bookshelf but haven't gotten to it yet, sounds cool. And yeah I was referring to the Brotherhood. It isn't a perfect comparison because Sith tradition was a bit open to interpretation at times, but like I said, just goes to make the franchise better. The quote by Bane reminded me of it:

"Kaan was a traitor. He led the Brotherhood away from the teachings of the ancient Sith. He turned his back on the very essence of the dark side."
―Darth Bane

That Arc was one of the best at also showing Anakin's rage building.  For me, other than Ahsoka, that was the best part of TCW.  Fleshing out Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship and showing Anakin's descent.

No, the arc in TCW where the Jedi set up an assassin for Obi Wan's murder, and then he takes his place in order to infiltrate a Separatist plot to kidnap the chancellor.


Yes the Brotherhood was basically nothing more than a Dark Jedi Order. They were soft. I loved how he described why they no longer used the title 'Darth'; they were afraid of it.

But there have also been some major fails in that. Like OWK never tried to correct Skywalker for outburst dealing with the Zygerians. Although it was not the same level as losing his mother, slavery was one of his major buttons. The highly sensitive, like Yoda, should have had some sort tingle through the Force that Anakin was being bombarded with negative emotions, and Obi Wan was right there.

I can chalk that up to how blind and inexperienced the Order was with emotion.   Been rewatching it myself and realizing that Ahsoka leaving the order robbed Anakin not just of his friend/surrogate daughter..... but of the chance to become a Master.  By the Force Windu pisses me off.

Yeah. I too am starting to see past my love for Sam, and starting to hate the character.

Yea, Sam will always be the BMF......  But Windu just never gave Anakin an inch.  The rest of the council came to accept or at least tolerate Anakin's presence as a Jedi.  Windu...just never let it go.  He always spoke to and about Anakin as if he didn't belong.  You have to wonder...what if Windu had brought Anakin with him to arrest Palpatine instead of effectively sending him to his room or at most sent him to contact Yoda.  Anakin may not have had time to stew in his doubts.

Windu was a jerk, he was very manipulative with anakin and only showed him any respect when he wanted him to kill palpy

Windu is arrogant, and is some ways he seems jealous of Anakin's power.  He is almost not even Jedi like (or may the epitome of the Jedi downfall).  To paraphrase from another favorite franchise of mine, "It would take only a nudge to make you like a sith, to push you out of the light."  You can see the arrogance in the latest episode of TCW.  It's a very BMF moment, but very arrogant as well.  I never liked the character too much.

Nice to know I'm not alone in the "Mace Windu was an A**hole" club.   His line to Anakin "If what you have said is true you will have earned my trust....."  This pissed me off so much.  They know Anakin and Palptaine are close, they talked about how they didn't like it.  Then here comes Anakin not just telling them "Hey....Ol' Sheev has been doing some illegal things."  But that he is the Sith Lord they have been seeking for almost 20 years.  But nope...he still doesn't trust Anakin.   For those who have finished TCW...I almost threw something at the TV when Mace spoke his last words to Ahsoka.  Such an ahole.

Oh yes, that was some really good stuff.

And more evidence that Mace might very well be the most arrogant Jedi. In AOTC at the Petranaki Arena when Dooku calmly informs him that he's hopelessly outnumbered, Mace's response of "I don't think so" just reeks of arrogance. We kind of brush it off because it's just Samuel L being awesome, but really thinking of the character they were hopelessly outnumbered at first and dozens of Jedi paid the price for it. There's so much in the Prequels that Lucas worked in, it's just subtle.

Right.  He had the drop on them....On COUNT FREAKING DOOKU!! and all he did was put his saber to Jango's throat. 

Perhaps Windu sensed something that everyone else didn't/couldn't. I always liked the notion that Windu had a more....intimate understanding of the Dark Side than your typical Jedi. Maybe he was picking up on the subtle pulls to the dark.

Which would, IMO, even further illustrate their inexperience and lack of understanding about emotional states.  Ok Anakin had darker tendencies..... but by treating him with constant suspicion and disdain...that just pushed him further to the dark. 

It actually did something particularly profound: It showed that after all is said and done...the Jedi are people; fallible, biased, and pety.

And this is why although many sith are viewed as evil...their mantra actually makes more sense because its about emotion and using your emotions rather than blocking them out and ignoring your feelings, which, IRL is a pathway to depression and trama

Everyone always says "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely"   I don't believe this is a constant.....history is full of Rulers who did not fall to corruption...they just aren't as fun to read about :P      But the saying should be "Power attracts the easily corruptible."....and that is the Sith to a tee.  Especially after the Rule of Two.



Exactly.  So how did Luke respond to this?   Well lets see...In the Old Canon he struggled with how to best not make the same mistakes as the old order.  Found a way to balance Love and Attachment with the Jedi code and in the end made the Jedi stronger than they may have ever been.    But in Disney Canon...... "The Jedi must End..."    :-\   (I'll finds anyway to beat that dead horse)

It's ironic, but the Sith are actually more in touch with their feelings. ::) I always hated that exchange with Maul in the Mando throne room, Obi Wan says that the weak give in to the Dark Side. IMO, the weak hide from their emotions because they are too difficult to deal with. That is why there are those who turn to drugs and drinking to subdue what they feel. Do the Sith always get it right? No, but at least for the most part they are honest, even if they are only honest with themselves. >:D

But that still falls under the faulty logic that ONLY the corrupt seek power. And that wasn't necessarily true. Zannah was devoted not corrupt. Bane was more like a tough loving older brother to her, and she was loyal to him. She dragged her feet to find an apprentice until she was sure that she had EVERYTHING Bane had to teach. But Bane grew impatient and forced her hand. She only fulfilled the Rule of Two to honor her master's wishes.

Which one? The Disney Canon sucks dead horse ass? :P >:D Cuz I'll never let that die.

So true...the Jedi must end...now Rey...Go and restore the Jedi even though you have never even really earned your power you just got a crash course of the force and everything else was handed to you

Didn't say that....power does attract the easily corruptible.  This by no means everyone who seeks or has power is easily corruptible.   If I had said "Those who seek power are easily corruptible."  That would be faulty logic.

True. But at the same time the original saying stands firm due to that very logic. It's more in the sense that the word "can" (and the subsequent conjugation of verbs) was left out, which would have made a more encompassing statement:

Power can corrupt, and absolute power can corrupt absolutely.

However, it loses its momentum as a warning when you take away the certainty the original wording suggests. And adding a line about being vigilant just muddles things.

Difference of perception then, "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely" is an....absolute statement.  It leaves no wiggle room.  It declares those in Power will...not might....be corrupted by it.    Going by the original wording it isn't a warning but a statement of fact.    "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men..." John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton in a letter to an Anglican Bishop.  True he said "Almost always" but from what I remember about him he had a disdain for anyone in power no matter what.

I meant a moral warning. But there is also a difference between power and "authority"....I think. :-\ But on the flip side, is there such a thing as absolute power?

(https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aBgpqyA_700bwp.webp)

Yes....maybe not as much now but at one time.  Emperors, Dictators and Pope's had absolute power until they didn't. 

I could say something, but it will only break RULES.

On the other side though, all those examples only had power because people believed they had it. Case in point: when the people decided that the Tzar no longer had authority in their lives, he lost all his power. Similarly, the people stopped believing that the Jedi were the ultimate good in the galaxy, and allowed the Empire to label them as villains. So when Palps declared them enemies of the state, people were happy.

Yeah, Old Shevie created an idea that the jedi were trying to take over, and since he seemed a nice guy people believed him, and the jedi did nothing to prove him wrong when they had the chance.  Also if you read the ROTS novel, his trick with the tape was pretty clever, but also showed that the jedi just went in and were like "you're under arrest" with no proof they could give the senate.

That just goes to show how much people want to trust that the government works.

What tape?

Yeah.....that was kinda dumb.

Its a tale as old as time.  What happened to the Jedi closely mirrors what happend to the Templars.  They kept to themselves so much it was easy for the people of France to believe the accusations.  Same with the Jedi.  They kept the aspects of The Force and their history so secretive or hard to find.... the public could easily believe Papa Palps since for the last decade he had been the voice of strength and reason.  It also happened to Luke's Jedi in the last few series in the EU.  After Jacen's fall and defeat  the public turned against the Jedi.  As Daala said "To them the only difference between a Jedi and a Sith is the color of their lightsaber."

You're talking about the Fate of the Jedi series?

yep