Saber Forum

Hey all!

So grab your popcorn and kevlar vests cause I wanna talk about The Last Jedi.

Ive talked about it here and there on different threads but I've never put all of my thoughts in one cohesive place. Not really a review...more of just thoughts and feelings. Wanted to discuss with you guys. Since this is gonna be fairly comprehensive on my feelings this will be on the longer side.

And just to be clear this is all my opinion, and a somewhat unpopular one. Not saying any of this is hard and fast truths, just my thoughts.

So, the easiest and most basic summary is; I like TLJ. A good bit actually. Its not my favorite but by no means do i dislike it.

But I'm pretty sure everybody here knows this. If youve talked to me you know im somewhat upbeat on the newer stuff, so im going to start with the three major things that do bug me.

1) Hux. He was just so....disappointing here. My major things in movies is i really like dynamic characters. I really like watching character's emotional and mental journey throughout a story. Its why I do like Kylo Ren so much - but Hux? I was looking forward to his character in this trilogy. Something that SWTOR did excellently was the Imperial Agent story. It showed how amidst the Darths and Sith and Force, there were people there who were more primarily tasked with simply running a government. This is what I was looking forward to from Hux; this powerfully evil ruler, this tyrant that wasnt magic or mystical. He was a despicable man and one who would rule with an iron fist. TFA did him excellently and got me excited for his character arc. Only his arc decided that he had more use as the butt of a joke. That in a universe of magical beings that can project their will through thought alone, Hux was severely outclassed and taken trivially. I get why, it even makes logical sense, I was just very disappointed in this turn of character.

2) Phasma. This ones a little shorter to explain because its much of the same as problem 1. Phasma is effing cool and no-one can tell me different. Not just visually, but a character who was less obsessed with being eeeevil and to just be so focused on their own survival and preservation makes for a dynamic and interesting character who could potentially be on anyones side depending on the right circumstance. And then she got yeeted into an explosion. RIP. (Honestly if they just kept the scene of her killing her own troops it would probably be much better for it).

3) Canto Bight. Whats to say here. It was a stupid B-plot, as many SW movies have, and went on for a few minutes too long. DJ was cool though.

Okay so now that the salts out of the way lets get to what I like about TLJ (minor gush incoming).

1) Everything with Rey and Kylo. I could write a whole essay on why i find Kylo's character so well-realized, but this post is long enough as is. Suffice to say, we get good backstory on Kylo here and it explains why hes so unstable by the end of the movie. He felt betrayed by the Jedi, betrayed by Snoke, and even betrayed by Rey, the last person he really tried reaching out to. Their connection brought up some interesting lore possibilities from KOTOR which is always a plus, and the Praetorian Guard and subsequent struggle over the saber is a huge highlight for me.

2) Old Man Luke. Alright im gonna duck and cover when i say this cause ive ruffled a few feather with this one before. I think EU Luke was really stupid. Seriously I did not like Luke's progression, he felt like he would always win no matter what. He kinda fell into Goku syndrome a little where he'd have something terrible happen (MJ getting fridged comes to mind) and then he gets stronk and wins anyway. Felt like every time. I didnt read every book, so there may be some examples to the contrary im unaware of. Im getting sidetracked though; Old-Man Luke was brilliant imo. What happens to a Luke Skywalker who sees everything unravel before him? A Jedi, a Skywalker defying the knowledge and teachings of the Jedi and killing so many innocents, leaving the New Order to burn? When he has the knowledge that this has happened before? That he could have prevented it? He does what any sane human would do. If you saw children under your protection die because of your mistake and your hubris making the exact same mistake as the people you based your order on? His reaction was not only logical but painfully emotional. This broken Luke was so much more interesting and provided not only a way for him to redeem himself in one of the coolest displays of force power and power moves ever seen in the series, but also gave him in what my mind was a much more fitting conclusion to Luke's story. Seriously. The doppelganger was awesome and you know it.

3)The Space Battles. This ones really subjective and i dont have much here other than my personal preference, but I already mentioned thats kinda what this post is sooo. So I'm a bit of a war-history nut. I especially love tributes and anecdotes of the first world war, and the space battles here really exemplified this. High-risk bombing runs, where go figure, ordnance will explode when shot, but the payoff of carpet bombing a star destroyer. This brought so many thoughts to my head of the first aviators, flying about in wood and fabric planes, knowing that a single shell or god forbid anything on fire hit them it was all over. But knowing that if they succeeded, there would be nothing left but smoldering ruin. Those pilots deserve to be remembered even in mundane ways like modelling a sci-fi space battle after their struggles. Snoke's flagship exuded power and the massive turbolaser batteries shelling their fleeing target just have such a feeling of pressure and panic. Intermittent attacks from fighter squadrons ensuring the defenselessness of their target. And the cherry on top; War Has No Rules. Honor and chivalry has no use for the dead and dying. Holdo's maneuver was not only visually spectacular, but opened the door for future showcases of unorthodox and creative space battle tactics other than fighters and cruiser exchanging fire until one wins. It was in many ways reminiscent of the Death Star I's destruction. The little fish using the last trick it had against the shark. Beautifully executed.

So yeah. those sum up the big story beats for me and I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts. I have so much to say about this movie if nothing else it started some of the most in-depth discussions ive seen out of the fandom, for better or worse.

For me, there's the OT and everything past that is Elseworlds.

TLJ was the movie that made me realize this was my deal because I liked it but I also didn't like it. What they are doing with Luke struck me as being kind of like the difference between Superman and Superman as he is in the Elseworlds story called Kingdom Come.

For the purposes of the story being told, I get it. Just like the new trilogy depends on Luke failing and leaving everything behind Kingdom Come kind of depends on a Superman whose spirit gets broken and he exiles himself before the main events of the story take place. As a story unto itself it's fine but it's not what I would really want to be the final fate of those characters either individually or collectively (for example Billy Batson spending the entirety of his adult life under mind control only to have to die once freed.) So in a sense, for me TLJ is kind of a glimpse of what would happen if DC suddenly declared Kingdom Come THE canonical fate of Superman and his generation of fellow heroes.

The EU is Elseworlds for me to just in different ways for different reasons. But one aspect of it that I do enjoy is that Luke got to reach so much more of his potential and have more adventures and more of an actual life. Even getting to marry and have a family (at least for awhile).  I have zero problems with Luke being an awesomely powerful and naturally talented Force user who is primarily self-taught aside from lessons with Obi-wan and Yoda who reaches his a level such that he might be the greatest of all time but I also don't think he needs to be moving black holes around either. Powerful characters like Superman aren't bad on principle but it depends that much more greatly on the actual writing. It can't just be about the big fight.

This is the only part I will comment on as this was the pivotal part that sent my feelings towards TLJ from irritation...to hatred.  I can see how someone could make the comparison to Goku...but it could also be attributed to Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Thor...etc.  Its the "curse" of these characters who endure for decades or longer.  Every story they are in we know in the end they will be victorious one way or another...because you can't just kill them off forever.  Now to be fair when the writers of the Vong series wanted to kill a main character they had to go through Lucas himself.  He gave them a list of who could NOT be killed off.  Apparently Chewie wasn't on the list.  I digress.  So yes, Luke would go through an event, deal with his grief or anger then pull himself out of it or be helped.  Like any character in a long running series.  But in the case of Mara, I don't consider Mara's death to be a Woman in the Refrigerator example.   While it was a plot point it wasn't used to really further Luke's story...but Jacen's fall.  He was willing to kill his own family by using her son's face, as well Luke wasn't even the one who took Jacen out...Jaina was.  
       Now to the meat and potatoes.  I've said before that many of the ideas presented in TLJ I was not 100% against...they were just executed poorly in my opinion.  Luke being a reluctant teacher or even a bit cynical when it came to Jedi teachings I could get behind, but that's going to take a lot more than a short flashback scene to make me believe it.  Luke refused to kill his father, a man with the blood of literally hundreds on his hands...including women and children.  Yet Luke sensed a small spark of Anakin in him...and refused to end his life for the small chance he could be redeemed.  Yet sensing a bit of Darkness in his nephew makes him contemplate murder?  Again, I could even get behind this...if the presentation had been better crafted.  Lets say instead of Luke hovering over a sleeping Ben, unclipping his saber, igniting it, then continuing to stand there....the scene went differently.  Lets say its a saber sparring match with a fellow Padawan.  Ben becomes enteirly too aggressive and his unfocus results in his opponent landing a strike.  Enraged he begins to batter his opponent necessitating Luke's intervention.  Ben, enraged, presses the attack on Luke...Luke gives ground out of shock at first but begins falling into his memory of fighting Vader and almost kills Ben.  This would cause Ben's revolt and Luke's despair...and I feel would have been more widely accepted.
        So, Luke's reluctance to continue the Jedi after his failure is not a bad story arc and one that could have worked...with a better writer.  But the main thing many of us will never accept...is Luke's refusal to help the Universe and especially his family.  This was a man who only saw a image of a pretty girl who was in trouble and wanted to help.  He almost didn't leave with Obi-Wan...not out of fear..but obligation to help his family.  He left his training because he saw that his friends were in trouble.  After all he went through at the end of ESB he retreated to Obi-Wan's hut to heal and meditate...but was also planning the rescue of his friend.  Then after being the image of serenity...his friends dying sparked him into action against the Emperor.   So, its not something I can accept, ever, that he would completely abandon the Galaxy and especially if someone shows up saying "Your sister is in danger." that he would just say "Get off my lawn".    Had say Luke been hitting the FO himself, Vigilante style, that would have been a better way to show this I think.  But that is the crux of it.  Luke was an inspiration to many of us...the face he did not let his failures define him or hinder him.  Perseverance, loyalty and honor....These were words that could describe EU Luke...but not TLJ Luke (or Jake Skywalker as Mark Hamill calls him).  Many of us don't want to see our Heroes deconstructed then barely built back up.  Honestly I always knew in the back of my mind this would become an issue.  I said from the beginning that they should either make the films with Luke, Han and Leia as the main characters or base it so far in the future they are long gone.  Can't expect us to focus on the new when we are not done with the old yet.  There is my take.

Well PS, as a friend & fellow saber enthusiast, I certainly respect your point of view, not to mention your courage in presenting an admittedly unpopular perspective.  And--I'm sure that I can speak for both of us--we as SW fans enjoy discussing the movies, ad infinitum.  SO, with that in mind, allow me to comment/share my own opinion  :)
_{disclaimer: these are my personal impressions; they are in no way, shape, or form superior/inferior to anyone nor should anyone presume such}

I really, REALLY, REALLY disliked TLJ.  Point of fact, it was my least favorite SW movie (and ranks amongst the worst SW stories).  Unfortunately, I feel that this movie is the culmination of the problems since Disney took over: unoriginal plots with absolutely no respect for established characters (and, arguably, fans).  That said, let's talk specifics:

1) Hux. No argument here; he really is the straw antagonist, spittle flying from his rage-twisted mouth.  Villains don't have to be one-dimensional to be evil and frankly I feel that the only thing that would've made him worse is if he really did start twisting on an oily mustache whilst laughing maniacally & EVILY.  You're not wrong: dynamic characters really make these movies memorable.
Hux isn't so much memorable as a character but rather a punchline.

2) Phasma. What could have been a potentially interesting antagonist ended up yet another wasted straw villain.

3) Canto Bight. Utterly pointless.  A series of contrived events that happened just because the story needed (well...not REALLY but you get the point...) something to lead to...where it led the characters.  But Benicio del Toro is a great actor (just not in this movie).

I agree completely with PS: these three points ARE bothersome.

NOW the part where I respectfully disagree with my fellow critic  :)

1) Rey and Kylo. I will admit that what we got about Kylo did interest me: consider the motive(s) behind him turning to the Dark Side.  Was it strictly as a result of Luke's threatening actions?  Was Ben cursed to follow in his grandfather's footsteps?  The fact that it could be both (and more) makes for excellent pathos.  Plus: Kylo trying to recruit Rey to his side, even betraying Snoke was compelling.  Add in Rey's questionable past and the unknown...VERY interesting.  However...
This ultimately led to nowhere.  Rey's lineage...they were no one, at least according to Kylo.  Could he be lying?  There really aren't compelling stakes to learn whether or not he was.  Consider the reveal in TESB where Vader tells Luke that he's his father.  Now THAT was shocking...and significant.  And I blame Rian Johnson's poor writing for that debacle.

2) Old Man Luke. This was the most egregious transgression of TLJ.  WHAT.  A.  WASTE.  Many of us had waited since '83 to see what had become of Luke.  Not only did he have INCREDIBLE potential BUT he proved what an indomitable spirit he had DESPITE encountering the power of the Emperor AND the fact that his father had fallen, betrayed the entire galaxy, and aligned himself with the Dark Side...yet STILL believed that Anakin was redeemable.  And he was willing to die to prove that.  THAT is the character that I couldn't wait to see again on the big screen.
As far as EU Luke...I admit that he could be "hit-and-miss" depending upon the author.  Who wants to read about/watch a "boring invincible hero?"  And if you do, I'll direct you to almost ALL of Steven Seagal's movies.  But the rest: part of the "Hero's Journey" IS the adversity that he/she encounters and how they react to such.  One of the reasons that TESB is considered the best of the SW movies (and I'm inclined to agree) is that the heroes are being harried on all sides, the only "victory" that they can claim is that they were able to escape without FURTHER losses.  AND it sets up the final act of the trilogy.  OR, in the case of the books, Luke's continuing journey where he transitions into a powerful Master.  I always felt that Luke represented the best of what the Jedi were supposed to be and had the potential to become the most powerful Jedi ever.  I have to admit that THAT is a character that I wanted to know more: a truly powerful Jedi Master that embodied the best of what the Order WAS to become.
Old Man Luke was a shell of a man.  Sure, I could understand that...IF it hadn't already been established that he was the personification of HOPE.  Again: what a waste.

3) The Space Battles. Like PS, I'm a history nut and especially the history of war.  Space battle SHOULD be awesome in these movies; it's in the title for goodness sakes!  I like seeing the dogfights, the pummeling of capital ships, and the backdrop of space as turbolasers and proton torpedoes produce explosions that look great in the movies  :)  
What I do NOT like are the absolutely useless tactics and strategies that insult the collective intelligence of anyone who hoped to see dynamic SPACE warfare.  PS does bring up a good point that the carpet bombing of a Star Destroyer could look incredible...but, once again, so many contrivances really take me out of the drama of the scene.  The Resistance's war objectives come straight from Hollywood Strategies 101.  Even Admiral Hoda's super-DUPER secret plan was ultimately pointless and incredibly stupid besides.  Why keep Poe in the dark when bringing him into her confidences would help save people...certainly A LOT more than the 20-30 who escaped on the Falcon at the end.
I TRY to remember the Mystery Science Theater 3000 Mantra: "It's just a show; I should really just relax."  But things like the above just detracts from my enjoyment enough that I can no longer suspend disbelief...or convince myself that a movie like TLJ isn't anything else than what it was for me: an utter, colossal disappointment.

Once again I want to reiterate: not only do I consider PS a friend, one that I've had the incredible privilege of sharing creativity with in the Fan Fiction section (a thread that I HIGHLY recommend that you check out to see his inspired saber designs!), but also a fellow saber enthusiast and--most importantly--Star Wars fan.  And while I have many disparate opinions, I respect *PS's point of view and look forward to hearing more on this point.

*_{No matter how wrong he is}   I am of course just kidding  ;D

Excellent points, and I can see how it didnt work for you, let me explain why it did for me,

With the Luke and Ben incident, I would have liked a little more build-up to be sure but i didnt have a particular issue with how its set up. Reason being when he was dealing with Vader the difference between the two was largely ideological. It wasnt as much about their personal relationship as much as it was about specifically Vaders allegiance. About his heart and about his redemption. Vader didnt really betray Luke as Vader was already evil by time Luke knew him.

Ben though was different, Luke no doubt saw this as a betrayal in some aspect, his own kin falling to the darkside with him feeling powerless to stop it - mostly. There was one drastic option he could take. Would he take that risk? Sure. An older guy whos built up a new order from ashes only to have it threatened by a brewing evil in your own family? Imagine that fear. Fear breeds poor choices, and even if he regretted it, he did so too late.

As for not helping his friends and family, honestly they never said it outright but i always suspect by this point Luke had some form of PTSD and depression. I mean dead kids will probably do that to you. As someone familiar with both illnesses combined with isolation...yeah. It wouldve weighed on him, he wouldnt want to help. Why help? Theyre all doomed anyway in his mind. Hed just have to watch people die all over again and i dont think he had the strength to face that.

Thats just all my take though.




Also as I was typing this i saw and read your response Dutchman, and those are all pretty valid criticisms. Ive always held that in a good story no character should be "sacred" per se (i really, really enjoy seeing more human and flawed sides to heroes) and Luke's issues which i mentioned above really gave him a depth i had never seen in Luke's character before, which is why i appreciated it so much.
 As for the space battles, i stopped taking SW space battles seriously years ago. The amount wrong with even the best of them is staggering from a logical view (ive always held an issue with the destruction of the SSD in ROTJ) so at this point i just want to see what they do with the medium of the battle. The space portion is less relevant for me nowadays. Great to hear your thoughts!

That's a good point concerning Luke's character arc and I think that in the hands of a better writer, that trajectory could've been better explored and executed. 
But between you and me, I still would have preferred the Luke who epitomized hope and not the husk of a broken man that we were given.

Heh, that's an excellent example, one that I concede that I enjoyed (and still do).  But you're right: these movies are just FILLED with Hollywood tactics  :)

Great topic PS!  Point  ;D

Sorry i didn respond sooner! Didnt see this comment at first.

The comparison to Elseworlds is pretty relevant, TLJ (alot of the new stuff in general) seems to be going for a different theme than the OT or the PT.


And a point in return to everyone for contributing to the discussion :D

Will get back to you on this when I get time to respond.

Cant wait to hear your input!

Really enjoying people's perspectives here with pros and cons alike.

The movie as a whole I found boring and a touch uninteresting. There was a lot to get excited about that was strung through each movie in the OT and on through the Prequels. I didn't get that sense with TLJ which was my let down with it.

Luke - "Your over confidence is your weakness."

Emperor - "Your faith and your friends is yours." ... well, this was actually a major strength for Luke. Finding something inside and outside of himself to fight(struggle) for truth, justice and peace.

You guys have already said it ... I was looking fwd to the further realization of Luke's character and potential. To take things in the opposite direction from all that the OT worked towards was a mis-step IMHO. Like others, for me this was the main hiccup to TLJ. His continence while in his Force Ghost form facing Kylo was a sneak peek into what could have been.

Im already looking fwd to watching it again keeping in mind a lot that's been shared so far.

Great to hear your thoughts! Where i disagree on the mis-step i do agree the "version" of Luke in his doppelganger stunt is probably what he was like before the Temple business. It was really cool to see him so confident in not only his ability but what he was there to do:

"Did you come back to say you forgive me? To save my soul?"

"No."


That every so simple two letter words hit hard in that scene. Because Luke wasnt there to save Kylo, he was there to save his sister and friends. Underrated line, imo

Yeah, there's a lot of years between ROTJ and the Temple. That's an expanse of time new movies or an animated series could cover that might help balance the new canon just a bit? Maybe during that time Luke was as awesome as you could want him to be but then later as he was approaching older age the school was going to be kind of him settling down and doing his retirement plan, passing on what he had learned and that's when things went south because of the trouble with Ben.

From what little has been said it doesn't seem as if Luke did much, in terms of being in the thick of things, in the years after ROTJ.  A few incidents here and there but for the most part it seems he traveled the Galaxy trying to study different cultures of the Force.

Alrighty, I already started watching it last night. Sheesh ... thanks a lot you guys  :P. I had forgotten that the sit down scene with Yoda and Luke is my favourite part. I quite enjoy how Yoda brings a perspective that helps Luke attain some mental and emotional freedom to move forward in a few areas.

It's because so little has been said that I think they would still have room to work in. Unless Episode 9 just confirms Luke didn't do much after ROTJ which would be a waste IMO.

Yea it looks as if he didn't even pick up any Students until 10 years or so before TFA.

Well, my thought (and if there's some dialog or something I'm forgetting about feel free to correct me) was that he wouldn't have started taking on students right away since his own experience would still be fairly limited and both his teachers are gone (still around as Force ghosts I know..). But there could be a time period after ROTJ where he'd be acting as basically the only Jedi around and he would hone his skills through his adventures and learning how to teach through his experience with helping Leia understand her powers, eventually reaching the point later in life when he felt he was ready to start the Temple.

My problems with the movie were less about the movie itself, but how Disney and the director handled criticism and lashed out at fans. If you criticize the film now you're just a nerd with nostalgia goggles on who is living in the past. What a lazy dismissal of the flaws with your movies.
There were many things I didn't like about the film though. Comedic timing seemed off and they couldn't pick what mood they wanted for the film. Rose made me cringe. Space flying Leia made me cringe.
While the part with Hodo hyper spacing through the fleet looked stunning from a visual standpoint, it kind of rendered every space battle in every other Star Wars film kind of pointless.  Why weren't they autopiloting ships through the death star or at the very least capital ships in the other movies?

There is very little of what Luke did after ROTJ in new canon.   There is a comic that takes place a week or so after ROTJ where Luke and Shara Bey (Poe Dameron's Mother) go on a mission to retrieve an artifact from one of Palpatine's labs.  It was the tree that stood in the Jedi Temple and Palps was growing another one from a clipping.  Luke gave the sapling to Shara and Poe grew up playing under that tree.  Then Battlefront II (the new one) had a Level where you play as Luke retrieving a compass from one of Palpatine's vaults.  Inidently, if anyone hasn't played it or seen it on youtube I urge those like me, who were not happy with Luke in TLJ, to watch it.  It gives us the Luke we wanted to see.  Kind, Fair, powerful.  He decimated a group of soldiers and then saved their leader who was trapped.  Later when the Leader says something about it Luke apologizes for it.  When asked by the imperial why he spared him luke responds "They gave me no choice, you did."  
      Rambling, sorry.  Next is the book "The Legends of Luke Skywalker"  basically a bunch of stories from other people across the universe about Luke popping up post ROTJ.  No training anyone mostly retrieving artifacts and or learning the different ways of the Force.   While I don't mind Luke taking time before training Students, it does seem like he took more than 10 years.  Going by dialogue both in books and the film Ben burned the temple 4 or 5 years before TFA.  Luke says he took his nephew and some students and began the temple.  So lets give it 2 years of training...if right Luke only began training students at least 27-28 ABY.   In the EU he began taking students in 11 ABY.   Also going by the books, including Bloodline (the book in which the galaxy finds out Luke and Leia are Darth Vader's children) Luke seems to have retreated from the galaxy already.  No one knows where he is or what he is doing.  While in the EU Luke is acting like a Jedi.  Letting the Galaxy know he's there...of course not in a arrogant way of course.  But he was also still learning as well.




That is a really big issue as well.  It is truly what has made many, including myself, so angry.  To be labeled a sexist, misogynist or a racist simply because you have criticism.  Now I know there were trolls who did spout that crap...but to immediately shut down any criticism because of those few comments is becoming all too common.

I did see the comic with Shara Bey, awesome art on that one! Also had the pleasure of seeing the Battlefront 2 scenes and really enjoyed those as well.  That’s the kind of thing I was thinking of, basically using those years before the temple to showcase him on adventures like that and with the original cast of characters. An animated series would seem to be the best way to go because I’m not sure who you could get to be a worthy successor to Mark Hamill in live action. Though it would be fun to have Mark himself do the voice.

Also I’ll confess, we’ve had a ton of Star Wars cartoons but it always bothered me we never got one featuring the original full cast of characters.

Same

Yup.

Yup.


I always think of capital ships as a limited resource, especially for the Rebellion. They wouldn't or couldn't really be able to just waste an aircraft carrier size fleet equivalent of corvettes, frigates etc, on a kamikaze style attack. My understanding was they massed most of thier fleet at Yavin IV for the DS1 engagement, so any ship is valued. Of course it seems like the Resistance had even fewer ships at thier disposal in TLJ, but it was some cool cinematography.

But aren't X-Wings capable of slipspace jumps? If a capital ship could take out a whole fleet surely an xwing could split at least one capital ship in half. Set a handful up with autopilot droids and wipe out all their big ships. You lose more fighters than that trying to take them out conventionally anyway

You get a well-earned point for substituting "slipspace" for hyperspace, just brilliant. You are correct, X-wings do have the capability as do a massive plethora of ships big and small in the Star Wars universe. I bring this major plot hole up to my friend all the time who happens to really like TLJ and his response is usually a weak "well, probably nobody thought to do this before Holdo had the bright idea." Personally I think it's ridiculous. Forget using ships at all, why not hyperspace-enabled warheads? Maybe it wouldn't have destroyed the entire Death Star but an aimed shot right down the laser array would have turned the station into a massive yet harmless piece of space junk. This is really a major issue with the movie in that Rian Johnson seemed content with making his own movie like it was a standalone film and not part of a greater universe. In that sense, I don't think he really cared in how it affected the rest of the franchise, and that is something I find impossible to tolerate.

I do agree overall with Darth Tepes in that a lot of fans hated not necessarily what happened in the movie but the way it happened. The plot points just fall apart under even superficial examination. Why doesn't the First Order just use a few other ships to blink out of hyperspace to stop the Rebels? Because: plot. How can Rey become Jedi Master-level with the Force despite TLJ happening literally a day after TFA? Because: plot. Why does Rose prevent Finn from sacrificing himself so they can all die together instead of having a shot at surviving (she has no idea Luke is going to show up and save the day). Because (you guessed it): plot.

But it's really sad that even with JJ coming back to direct 9, his hands are tied in many ways by the crazy plot decisions that were made in TLJ. There is no possible way to scale back Rey's powers now, Kylo doesn't stand a snowball's chance on Mustafar. There is, however, an old character involved that would seem to be a match for Rey, we'll see...

I'd defend a few of these.

The hyperspace ram has a few explanations, the most "canon" is from the novelization where its mentioned the Raddus had high-strength experimental shielding, allowing it to survive the collision for just long enough into the impact to cause NLS shrapnel, personally I also think with the EU's explanation for how weird hyperspace gets, my headcanon is if a person tried this theyd have just a big of a chance hitting the ship as being tunneled into an alternate dimension with a rapid unplanned jump such as that. We've even heard Han say how much prep needs to go in a single jump, so even weaponizing it via "point and shoot" is probably not terribly reliable.

As for Rey, I still maintain we dont really know what she is. Hopefully RoS can clear up her deal because its shown from the getgo she is unnaturally strong in the force, even being so significant for Snoke to refer to her abilities as "an awakening".

As for Rose, an emotional character in a dire situation with the only character she made an emotional connection with about to kill himself, I reall dont think that logic and reason was at the forefront of her mind at that moment. People make weird/bad decisions when emotional.

Interesting outlook! I'm one of those fans who's a 'hater' of TLJ, but I thought this forum could get me looking at other people's differing opinions, and yours is definitely valid, probably the best opinion I've seen from someone who actually likes TLJ. I especially agree with you about Hux. My mother and I were impressed by him when he stood up to Kylo Ren in TFA. That guy has guts! I dunno who the guy in TLJ was, but he sure wasn't the Hux from TFA. Probably a warped clone... and Phasma, I wish she had more character building. I think the problem with the sequels is character arcs, and barely any character has an arc besides Kylo Ren, and pardon me for saying so, but his arc hasn't really intrigued me yet, maybe TROS will change my mind, but I think things would've been cooler if Rey took Kylo's hand in the end and joined him.

I think the only thing I can really disagree with you on is Luke's portrayal. I admire EU Luke because, honestly, he's as human as it gets even with powers such as his own. Not to mention, he still needs help fighting evil, he couldn't even defeat his Dark Side tendency til the Diamala outright rejected him and Mara Jade so bluntly pointed out everything Luke was doing wrong in his life all because of the Darkness ruling his path since The Dark Empire fiasco. But Luke has grown into a Jedi Master, often he is well equipped to actually take on higher threats. Though even then he needs help destroying an evil doer like Abeloth. That monster even Jedi Master Skywalker could not take out without his Jedi order, and even recruited the help of a Sith if I remember correctly. Anyways, point is EU Luke definitely had his struggles and flaws, defeats and victories.

But I digress, reading your thoughts was insightful and I'm glad to have gotten to read them! Much love and may the Force be with you!

Appreciate the thoughts!

My whole thing with EU Luke is where he had high's and low's it always felt very obvious he would overcome them. How couldnt he? He's LUKE SKYWALKER, DEFENDER OF THE GALAXY >insert Ginyu Force pose<. Abeloth I love as a lovecraft fan, but the fact they had to pull out something one step away from godhood to one-up Luke kinda shows my irritation with the power scaling.

My whole opinion on EU Luke was summed up by TLJ Luke funnily enough (quote might not be exact here but its darn close;

"What do you expect me to do? Face down the whole First Order with a lightsaber?"

Does sound kinda silly when he puts it like that.

Point for discussion!

That's where many of us differ.  To you it sounds silly...for me it is exactly what I was hoping for.  Like we've discussed before its the way characters like that will always be.  If every Superman story was him stopping bank robbers and petty criminals it would get boring.  But break out Doomsday or Darkseid and you got a story.  Same with Luke.  He was the son of the chosen one, he fulfilled a Destiny 1000's of years coming. He was connected to the Force like no other.  NOT having his power grow would be a disservice.  There are threats that the average Jedi can take on...then there are the Luke Level Threats.  But just like Superman...the interest comes from this Powerful character with an insane amount of responsibility trying to live a normal life.  Both Luke and Superman would love nothing more than to spend their time with their families. 

And thats perfectly understandable. Something i often forget to mention once i get rolling is I really do understand why this version of Luke failed to resonate with so many fans. It was a different character entirely not the culmination or exemplification of any EU material. I know many people put Luke in that bracket of superheroes, and he deserves to be included in it. My "moment" i guess that won me over was indeed that line, but not because my brain said "YES! That IS what I'd expect you to do!" But because that line brought me out of the movie in a good, yet unexpected way. It grounded the movie in this kind of emotional realism for me. It all at once hit me like this is Luke admitting he's not strong enough. It's that moment where I began to really take Kylo and the FO seriously. All of a sudden I realized that Luke's traditional plot armor wasnt valid. In that moment to me he felt like a real person with real consequences to his heroics. It wasn't about a superhero anymore. It wasnt about Batman, it was about the damaged and scared Bruce Wayne having to face his actual demons not just punching the bad guys. It was about Clark Kent and his struggle not to hurt those around him.

In that moment for me, Luke transcended being just a movie character. He became a real person. With his flaws, and regrets, and guilt. He wasnt going to swing a light sword and save the day battling evil doers to a trumpeting symphony; he was a man who at his very core felt afraid, who felt anger, who even felt hate, but most of all.

He felt suffering.

Oh Force, love that. Doesn't convince me it's the real Luke but that's truly a nicer thought than what others have said. For me Luke's real, humanizing moment was hanging from Cloud City, his hand cut off, his father revealed to be a monster, and he is all alone, frightened and begging for help. The other would have to be Luke writhing under Sidious and his Force Lightning. Those two moments have always reminded Luke isn't all powerful even half the time. But your thoughts are well thought out and not condescending or deflections. Sorry I'm just so happy there's sane people who don't bash EU Luke just for the sake of bashing him. I think they could've done better with a 'given up' Luke though. I've written a few fanfics where Luke does give up at some point, but I think why people like myself really don't like Luke's portrayal in TLJ is because of him attempting to kill Ben in his SLEEP! That really broke everything for lots of people, and the main reason I reject him as being my Luke Skywalker. There's a huge difference between Luke attacking Darth Vader for threatening his sister, and Luke freaking out because his nephew just might be a bit evil or is being manipulated by Goll- I mean Snoke.
I think that's the main and probably only reason for a lot of people that this portrayal is just downright hurtful and disrespectful to what Luke went through with other Dark Siders, especially when Luke was able to redeem a man like Vader, but had no thought of hope to save his nephew from the same evil.

I'm so sorry for the ramble!

It's fine! I'm Italian, I love the ramble! And yeah, I see how the killing Ben in his sleep could be considered jumping the shark...over a car. However, what saved it in my eyes was the last second where he realized what he was doing. He realized he let fear control him, that he made the same mistake of his father, and the Jedi Order he served. And here's a little Hamill appreciation to drive my point:

(https://i.imgur.com/eXP1aZx.png)

Took that screenshot from the exact moment Luke realized what he was actually doing. Props to Mark here, but looks at his eyes. He was DESTROYED by the realization of the depravity of his actions. This was arguably what made him make the decision to forsake his friends. He lost himself here, and realized it. He no longer felt like he even was Luke Skywalker. That right there is what did that scene in for me. Again mad props to Mark Hamill and his incredible acting!

Mark Hamill is DEFINITELY one of the best actors ever, in the moment I too could understand and feel that brokenness, I have a lot of empathy towards Luke and felt like crying too during that gut wrenching moment. And I tell you what, I spent months trying to love TLJ, I wanted to love it as much as I love all six movies that came before it. But alas, I still can't buy Luke's instincts telling him to murder a child,  much less, the child of his sister and best friend. He was supposed to be better than Anakin, above most atrocities, especially killing kids. (Darn you Anakin) but I can understand your logical thinking! Anyways, I had had other thoughts for why Luke was hiding or had given up. In fact I was just waiting for him to tell Rey that Kylo Ren killed his son, or killed Mara in the assault on the Temple. I can get Luke grieving for a dead family because of his inaction to help Ben Solo, but what happened is still a far cry from what I believe Luke is.
XD I cope by believing Luke Skywalker in TLJ was actually a Clone running the Temple for Original Luke, got a little saber happy and sent Ben Solo to the dark side. And the real Luke has been off in the Unknown Regions exploring it with a couple of Jedi and a Thrawn clone! Yes, my coping is strange.

I'll concede that. Characterization here wasn't perfect, felt it was good enough to be justified though.

Indeed it is. I'm glad we got to talk about this and I got to see stuff from a different point of view! Usually people are less than polite. Thank you for the civilized conversation! :D

Again that goes into the "Like the idea not the execution".   Luke abandoning the Fight is one thing...abandoning his family is another.  That is where the crux of the dislike of "Jake Skywalker" comes from.  I think a better way to have shown all this would have been to have been for Han and Leia to have already passed.  Luke abandoning everything would have felt more natural to me in that instance, same for Rey having to convince him.  I might just upload my version of TFA at some point...

Not a problem! No sense in getting angry at people over a movie - besides i enjoy debates / discourse.  :)


I get that, the execution of the movie in general is quite divisive, sadly.

Here is another aspect that can be controversial.  As much flak as the fandom gave Lucas for some of his ideas.... he still got a pass for them.  Because for the majority of Us...we didn't feel he owed us anything.  This was his world...his ideas.  He owned them in everyway one could own something like this.  His responsibility, and we all knew and agreed with this, was to his vision.  Not once during discussions on the Prequels or Special Editions (for me at least) did it not end with "Well, its his story."  But Disney does not and will not get the same slack.  Unlike Uncle George, Their responsibility IS to the fans.  They needed to show us they respected this golden franchise and the fandom that came along with it.  Now I don't mean they have to pay heed to every little fan theory or fan fic.  But get out of their own head and bubbles and think "What will be a good story and not divide the fandom."  Disney thought they could just slap Star Wars on something it would sell...they learned the hard way that isn't true. 

And that boils down to a difference in what fans want. For me, Lucas created a great universe but got very carried away. True, it was his baby, but the more got released i felt my interest starting to wane. With Disney at the helm, I feel like they have a focus on what they want to achieve with the franchise beyond CGI meandering so my interest rose substantially when TFA came out, and I'm still enjoying the new stuff. I just wish people didnt get so overly nasty with the new stuff. I can understand not liking it - i can even understand it impacting your enjoyment of the series (what happened to me the first few seasons of TCW!) But it irks me when the rage and attacking other fans start flying. Star Wars should be a series for everyone but on occasion it feels like some fans feel like it belongs exclusively to them. Not meanin to rant I've just got in some ugly bouts for saying stuff like "I liked this scene" or "I enjoy this character"

Fans attacking fans is not something I condone.  I think Logos and I are two of the biggest opponents of Disney's direction...but we've never attacked anyone for their position.  We don't even attack the actors.  But the Powers that Be at Disney and Lucasfilm...especially KK and RJ.  That is also one the biggest reasons many of us are so angry....the people in charge of Lucasfilm...attacked the fans.  To be labeled a racist, misogynist, basement dwelling man-baby because I don't like their movie doesn't lead to me respecting them. As well they seemed to try everything they could to push old fans out...     We also differ on them having a direction...by all accounts I don't think they had anything more than a passing idea and now are trying to play damaged control.

It's why I pretty much keep my SW discussions here at the forum, people are generally pretty decent here and even the angriest of us are pretty respectful. I remember the last time I spoke of TLJ on reddit....that was not pretty.

THIS SO MUCH^^

And I have to say: that almost EVERYONE here in the Forums have been NOTHING if not congenial, helpful, and pleasant.  Point of fact: I may disagree with much of PS's points on TLJ BUT I admit that whenever he gives his opinion it is always accompanied with an excellent reason/qualifier as to why I shouldn't outright dismiss many of the decisions done in TLJ story (indeed, it is because of PS that I've made certain concessions regarding some of the characterization surrounding the characters; THAT is called good debating).  Furthermore, we can both have a polite, even cordial disagreement concerning our diametrically opposite views but still respect one another, especially given our shared enthusiasm for SW  :)

As for Rian Johnson...I do not consider him to be a good writer/director nor does he truly appreciate SW and the attendant fandom surrounding it (anyone who succumbs to such verbal attacks and juvenile actions just because people disagree and have some valid arguments really needs to grow thicker skin and take a LONG hard reflective look at themselves).

Again: I REALLY like this thread  :)

So I re-watched the movie last night since it had been a hot minute and I've conjured up a few more positive/negative anecdotes. Ill start with the negatives like last time.

1) Finn. I like Finn as a character in these movies overall but his dialogue struck me as even more whiny in this viewing. Kinda gave me some ANH Luke vibes. Seems like everytime he talks hes complaining about something.

2) Hux, again. Everytime I watch this movie, much as I enjoy it, it always hurts to see this potentially really cool character used a ragdoll.

3) The Caretakers. I feel like they were originally supposed to be more important and do something other than scream at Rey twice.

Things I liked this time around:

1) Luke's Death. Never caught this before, but Luke's death was slightly foreshadowed. During the first scene where Rey and Kylo are linked Kylo comments that Rey cant be doing this, as the effort would kill her. Interesting, since she is an unnaturally strong force-user in her prime and actively training. Seeing as that would kill her, I imagine the strain for a Doppelganger technique on a 70 year old out of practice Jedi would be similarly lethal.

2) Kylo's Strength. Kylo gets a bad rep for his outbursts, but TLJ does show his prowess in a subtle way. During the Praetorian fight, Rey and Kylo fight 3 and 5 of the Praetorian Guard, respectively. Where that doesnt sound like a large difference, its how they fight them that shows Kylo's power. Rey fights her three one after the other, staggered so she's rarely dealing with more than one opponent and sustains light injury during her struggle. By comparison Kylo fights his first three at the same time, then the next two simultaneously again, and ultimately receives no injuries. A nice contrast considering a common complaint is that of why Rey could hold her own against Kylo, who has much more training.

3) Rey and Kylo's Connection. This was already a treat for KotoR fans, by re-introducing Force Bonds. In the movie Snoke claims to have bridged the minds of Kylo and Rey, however, we still get one last scene where their minds bridge (while Rey enters the Falcon at the end of the movie), despite this being quite awhile after Snoke's death. I see three possibilities with this. ONE: similair to KotoR, Force Bonds are semi-permanent, which will be very interesting for ep9. TWO: Snoke is alive, not sure how I feel about this one, I don't really see it being true but who knows? THREE: Snoke didnt make the Bond, which lets face it, leaves one very tantalizing option. Epi9 would be very interesting if the good ol' Papa was the one to initiate that.

Neither positive or negative things just anecdotes:

-We only see Phasma go into a fireball, but nothing following, given her reputation for surviving at all costs I have to wonder.
-Rey in the darkside cave sees herself in a vision where she hoped to see her parents. Similar to Luke's vision on Dagobah, which served to foreshadow that Luke's father was Vader. It is again canon that Palpatine influenced the force to create Anakin, so perhaps this could be the force expressing that she was born of the force itself, hinting at a relation to Palpatine,who might have done something similar with Rey, which is obviously a popular theory at the moment.
-I know its been mentioned before but I love Yoda's foreshadowing that Rey took the texts. "That place did not contain anything the girl Rey did not already possess." What a little savage.
-Regarding our earlier conversation with Luke, I drew some mental parallels this viewing with Darth Caedus of the EU, who was convinced what he was doing would prevent suffering and "save the galaxy", which was remarkably close to Luke's justification of "in a moment of hubris I thought I could stop it". Interesting Skywalker family trait I think, to be momentarily overcome by fear leading to bad decisions.

Nice! For me all the characters were OOC in TLJ, Finn especially disappointed me. I recently watched a YouTube video by Thor Skywalker talking about Finn and how he could have been the most dynamic character of all these new characters. Personally, while Finn used to be a favorite of mine it always struck me odd that a little boy taken from his family (as he says in TFA to Rey) and conditioned and brainwashed to be a soldier, would have a sense of humor, had no trouble leaving the FO and would open fire on his former allies even though on his first mission his free will was apparently triggered when he saw a fellow trooper get killed, by Poe no less XD. He would have been a cooler character if his arc was learning to be human again, learning to love, trust, accept others. And Rey's arc could have been almost the same. These two characters lived alone, forgotten, unappreciated by the galaxy. It would have been a more beautiful friendship if they had been learning to entrust their lives to eachother instead of immediately clicking. Finn in TLJ was definitely an underwhelming character, although I did start to cry when he obviously had plans to blow up the battering ram to save the Resistance and sacrifice himself, proving he was a hero (darn you Rose! She's obviously an FO spy I know it!). But yeah I agree, Finn deserved a better character arc, especially since most fans keep crying out for the POV of a stormtrooper, Finn would've been a near perfect candidate.

As for Rey and Kylo's Force Bond, bonds were introduced in TESB when Vader and Luke's dormant bond was awakened via the parental reveal. There was also a deleted scene in ROTJ where Vader calls out to Luke in hopes of seducing him to his side, and Luke hears him despite being lightyears away. All because of this I had hope Rey and Kylo were somehow related by blood. Because it has already been established Rey is superior to Kylo Ren (or Kylo Ren never fully committed to beating the crap out of her) I think a familial dynamic would have been super cool and climatic. Personally I've always thought that Rey was a toddler at the Jedi school when Ben went crazy, but he didn't want to kill his sister so he rearranged her memories and left her on Jakku for a secured apprentice, he could have had plans to go to Jakku again to pick her up, tell her he was her long lost brother and began indoctrinating innocent, naive and needy Rey with the ways of the Dark Side. It would explain why Kylo got so angry upon hearing about the droid and Finn picking up 'the girl' during their escape. Meanwhile Han and Leia would have thought their daughter was dead, explaining why they never mention her because it's just too painful.

Still hate Luke's death, it was too early. Yes I am stubborn.  Nice review! :)