Saber Forum

Welcome to the Sith Academy. This is a place to learn about all things Dark Side (and maybe a few things that aren't so much).

Feel free to ask and answer questions as your knowledge base allows.

As previously stated, this is a thread for learning, for Sith and Jedi alike, who seek to know more about the Dark Side. There will be NO FEUDING.



The inspiration of this idea came from another thread, by a newbie that was unfamiliar with the term "Dark Jedi." So to get the ball rolling....


Many don't know the difference between a Sith and a Dark Jedi. For me, the first defining encounter was found in the book Legacy of Evil (the conclusion of the Darth Bane trilogy). Where the Sith are the mortal enemies of the Jedi. They are Dark Side adept but serve a higher order. A Dark Jedi is a Jedi that has left the order, has a vague understanding of the Dark Side and aren't afraid to use it. But mainly they just seek to benefit themselves and the attainment of power to further that end. They are not terribly in to following orders, so becoming a Sith is not high on their priority list, either.

Another noted instance is in The Force Unleashed, when Maris Brood turns to the Dark Side. Despite the convenient use of red blades, she was not Sith, but merely Dark Jedi.

Hope this answers your question, Layana.

Yes, pretty much, thank you :)

Alright. Seeking a non-biased answer to this question: "Is the Dark Side more powerful than the Light Side?"




Yes, I consider Yoda to be biased, lol

It depends. My stance is that the power, or rather strength, of the Dark Side comes from the emotions one draws from when using it. Anger, Fear, Hatred. These are very strong negative emotions, which might explain why the Dark Side takes such a toll on its followers. Just as stress can manifest itself physically in the body, so too can these emotions reek havoc from being sustained for long periods. There have been cases of people actually "dying of a broken heart." They are emotionally wounded so badly that they have no to live and the body simply shuts down. Case in point: Padme Skywalker.

I have theorized though, that powerful positive emotions (Joy, Hope, Love) could be drawn from with similar effective strength. It was stated that Darth Plagueis had the ability to "prevent death" in others, but it is also noted that the Dark Side cannot be used to heal. For me this raises the question, did Darth Plagueis draw off these positive emotions despite being a Sith Lord?

Since the Jedi strive to remove emotion from their respective equation, I believe it limits the strength they get from the Force. Yes there are some Jedi of noted strength in the Force, Yoda for example. But think about how powerful he might be if he drew on his emotions. :o

I was wondering about the positive emotional aspect of the Dark Side. It seems as though emotions like Joy, Exhilaration, Love, or even Righteous Anger (as opposed to Hatred) are not embraced by Darkside users.


Perhaps because there is no Willpower to dominate the Force behind those emotions? The Darkside is, unless I"m mistaken, based on the foundation of capturing the Force and bending it to the user's will, right?



And enslaving something, perhaps, cannot be done with positive emotions. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Positive emotions are generally non-selfish.

While positive emotions aren't part of enslaving, they can be part of *convincing*--winning another over to one's point of view to then hopefully do as you would like them to do.  I get the impression the Jedi are so passive in their approach that they see even convincing the Force to their will as wrong.

Yes, indeed if the success criteria is a high level of emotional burst and altering the physical world around in a short period of time.
- I guess everyone experienced this is some sort: if you need to lift heavy weight or run quickly without being tired, the more fear/anger/hatred you have in mind the more appropriate the effect will be.
- It's very hard to lift off a car from your child out of love: it's the fear of loosing which helps.

No, if the success criterias are binded to a certain condition of harmony and weightlessness.
- it's always love (it's not an emotion!!), the forgiveness, the "let things to be as they are"-attitude which helps to be independent from anything not PRESENT in a given moment.
- this requires constant control over the mind and constant focus on letting things go without being attached to any of them. However this focus can widen the awareness (how paradoxical it sounds) while the Dark Side distracts and let the emotions build judgements which can fuel the emotion further on the term "what's right or wrong".

So it really depends :)
Mace Windu is an excellent character in the book of Ep3 (written by Matthew Stover) showing how the two can contaminate and with some strong control be utilized to overcome certain situations one or the other way could not resolve alone. Also not a coincidence that it was Mace developing a saber style (Vapaad) around this very unique and hard approach.

Certainly the way of the Dark Side is smoother and easier - it is actually automatic, that's why it's easy. You have unconscious concepts supported and covered by emotions which are the automatic chemical resonses of your body to the mind. You just have to let it express itself repeatedly and there you go, power comes. However it's the very same thing limiting it to only a few narrow ways of use - from a dark jedi to become a sith it's a huge leap forward and requires the user to revaluate a lot of things. Which means getting out of the comfort zone and change. Only a few can do that ;)

It's interesting to compare the "magic" of the Force to the magic of other fictional universes.


For example, a certain emotional magic of Harry Potter's universe, conjuring a Patronus, requires intense focus on a *very* positive memory/emotion.



Would that work with the Force? It's a question I can't answer. But I can guess.


And my guess is, no, it wouldn't work. Because the Force can't be dominated by a happy memory.



I don't even think it would work on the Light side, because using the Light side is, to my understanding, making a request and stepping aside to allow the Force to act on that request.

Jedi Mind Trick ring any bells?


If you are spouting rhetorical movie lines, you will be mistaken. Read any book that references Dark Side training regimens. (Shadow Hunter, Path of Destruction, Darth Plagueis) The Dark Side is not easy. Sacrificing one's beliefs in the heat of the moment for a tactical advantage? That's easy. Succumbing to the temptation of greater power? Easy too. Mastery of the Dark Side? Not so much. You are correct though, it is easier to rely upon emotion rather than logic in matters of instinct. And in times of crisis, fear is an exceptionally powerful motivator. Example: Young Galen Marek, when he disarmed Vader.

Vapaad, according to my sources, is merely the Sith name for Juyo. Juyo is the seventh form of lightsaber cambat. Although I'm not entirely clear on the particulars, Juyo utilizes controlled use of emotion to amplify ones powers in battle. Effectively it's justified use of the Dark Side, depending how you look at it. But its secrets are carefully governed as to who it is taught to use it since it represents the silken thin line that separates Light and Dark.

The Jedi Mind Trick is a power I have never understood why it isn't classed as Dark Side in the majority of cases--especially now that we have seen its ultimate expression onscreen in TFA.  It looks like coercion rather than convincing.  I still laugh at "I want to go home and rethink my life," but yeah, if I were in universe that would probably be the power that would scare me the most.

In my view, the very use of the Force is a manipulation against nature. If you levitate something, you are defying the natural law of gravity. Mind tricks circumvent an individual's will. Healing staves off the result of death. It is becoming a more common ideal that the Force just is, and the motives of the user determine what shade it falls under.

For Light Side related matters, you might be better served by the sister-thread Jedi Academy. http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=28154.0



That is why it supposedly only works on the weak minded.

I just spoke of the Force in the exact same way; it just is  :D +1

Great minds I guess. Ditto.

Well, from the books I've read so far I found only the Darth Bane trilogy and now the Plagueis which stands out and shows some exciting intelligence behind the Dark Side. Others seemed to be one dimensional and they couldn't really elevate to a level beyond simple arrogancy to even remembering them so my memories are vague here and there :)

On the other hand the whole Lucas universe is a complete mess if we want to dig deeper than the surface. As it was mentioned before, the mind trick is pretty much one point where the concept is bleeding and force push is the other for jedis (however in the D20 RPG it was somewhat regulated in use and wouldn't cause any interference using it on non-living creatures like droids. But everywhere else it's being used with a great smile.)
All seem to go back to the good and bad opposition.
It's my very personal opinion but if the jedi order also has the concept in mind about good and bad and it's just somehow different to the others' approach, then they are not really legitim to "guard the galaxy" :)
In my theoretical jedi order there's no good and bad but things as they are. Guarding means intervention and needs a concept to back it up. The Dark Side is also just a label to another concept which is different and - how funny - the whole "light" and "dark" names are established by those who claim to be the light :)

So I agree to move away a bit from the core of the movie-line when it comes to research and contemplation. Certainly and interesting discussion. Can't wait for the jedi academy to be set up too :)

That has already been done.

Also there is another thread aptly named "The Force" in which people discuss their views on it. As fascinating as the subject is however, I would prefer to keep this thread more for information rather than personal ideologies.

Is there any reason a Sith/Darkside user couldn't be heroic? Selfless even?



Righteous anger can be a powerful emotion. Like batman, for example. He's an anger driven hero.


But, as far as I know, that's not something we see in the Star Wars universe. Why not?

It seems to be uncommon but not impossible if we take the options offered by SWTOR seriously.  Take Darth Imperius for example--the "Light Side" Inquisitor who shows a very different side to him when not being watched by those who could have him executed. There is also an example in one of the novels (the rather poorly named "Darth Gravid").

I will admit that most DS users act for selfish reasons, but the selfishness comes at varying levels. One of the reasons I love Starkiller (Galen Marek, not that cheesy Death Star wannabe), is because although he was trained in the dark side, he was a true believer. He felt that his service to Vader was a righteous cause. This "purity" allowed him to eventually find his own path, which inexorably led to Juno. Because of his love and/or attachment to Juno, his actions are strongly influenced by selfish motives.

When he stormed the Death Star to rescue the Rebel leaders, I feel it was more out of a need for revenge, either to directly be able to confront Vader or by releasing the Emperor's enemies. In either case, part of his motive was selfish, and he didn't care how many people were going to have a really bad day for trying to stop him. This is known as an "anti-hero" mentality. You do bad things for all the right reasons.

Another example was Bane's purge of the Brotherhood of Darkness in order to restructure the Sith Order. Again, this is a case of the true believer. Bane believed that the New Sith had grown weak with their rejection of the old ways. So he tricked Lord Kaan into using a thought bomb to wipe out the Jedi on Ruusan. It merely destroyed all Force sensitives within the blast. So in his act of treachery, Bane ended the New Sith Wars and "eliminated" the Sith, which some would consider to be a good thing, but he did so for his own ends.

Vaapad was actually the Form VII variant created by Mace Windu to channel his own emotions in combat into something that wouldn't actually lead him to the Dark Side.

See here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII/Legends



No, there isn't any reason, it just tends not to happen.  There are quite a number of examples throughout the Extended Universe of people doing the wrong things for the right reasons.

We don't see it because it tends to get swallowed up in bigger events, and the eventual results tend to outweigh the original motives.

Anakin turned to Palpatine for help, and ultimately to the Dark Side, because he wanted to save his wife.  I could argue that this was selfish on his part, but it's also done out of love.  But that motivation was lost to most of the galaxy to the terror of Darth Vader.

Also, we don't see it because George Lucas wanted good and evil to be in black and white.

That it was

Opinion question for all, but particularly Darth Logos:  Do you agree with what Bane did and why he did it at Ruusan?

Also, I believe Windu was one of the only people who could use Vaapad without turning to the dark side.



I agree with Bane, the Sith were being weakened, so it needed to be fixed. When all the Sith Masters were "equal", it didn't let the strongest be in charge or reach their full potential. The weaker needed to be culled from the Sith, so he did that, and then went back to using the "true" weapons of the Sith.

Mace was the only practitioner of Vapaad that did not turn to the Dark Side (although I almost phrased that "fall to the Dark Side" but then he did...hehe).  Sora Bulq turned to the Dark Side seduced by Dooku, and Depa Billaba went nuts, fell to the Dark Side, fell into a coma, and depending on the source, was still in the coma on the roof of the jedi temple when Ani-Vader razed the temple during Operation Knightfall.  See here for more on her, including mention that her Lightsaber skills surpassed even Master Windu's:  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Depa_Billaba/Legends (note this is no longer canon.  Canonically, she favored Form III.  Also note that current canon is stupid, and the Legends article is much more interesting.).

Hey! that's not cool ;) mace was my fav

That's why I qualified it with "according to my sources." I've actually heard both versions. One that Mace created the form, the other that Vapaad is the Sith name for Juyo. Similarly how Djem So and Shien are both form 5.



I do. The Brotherhood of Darkness effectively became the Dark Side Jedi Order. Kaan decreed that all were equals, and because of that the so-called Sith began to stagnate. They had also abandon the old ways of the Sith, even to the point that the title Darth was no longer being used. When Darth Bane realized what the Sith could be and what they had been, he set out to reestablish the power of the Sith by taking on the role of the Sith'ari; the one that would strengthen the Sith by destroying them. He had also theorized that by condensing the number of "vessels" the Dark Side resided in, the fuller each would be and have greater potency. Effectively two Sith would be more powerful as individuals than 1000, and similarly the Jedi would be weaker still because their numbers were so great. (I personally disagree with this because I believe the Force to be infinite, and therefore no bounds as to what can be achieved though it.) However, the radical shift in power led to an imbalance in the Force throughout the galaxy, since the number of Lightsiders grossly outnumbered the Dark. This ultimately led back to balance with the destruction of the Jedi, and the Sith of Bane's legacy knew this.

Darth Bane IMO represents the pinnacle of what it means to be Sith. Weakness must be culled in order to breed strength, and he accomplished this through any means necessary. He knew that if the Sith remained in force, the Jedi would actively oppose them. But with only two in the entire galaxy, they could be nothing more than rumor and legend; operating from the shadows, and completely unopposed.



Again, according to my sources, Windu is quite familiar with the Dark Side. Part of his achieving the rank of Master was his return from it (same as Revan). It has also become canon (I believe) that purple blades are used by those that have come back. Seeing as how the traditional Jedi blade is blue and Sith/DS blade is red, when you combine both sides you'd get purple. (The real story however is that Sam Jackson's favorite color is purple, and he wanted to easily pick himself out of the crowd during the battle of Geonosis. ;))

Speaking on colors, is Red really just traditional for Sith and the color of their synthetic crystals?


Or is there some deeper reason for the use of Red? (In lore, of course. I'm sure the real reason is just that Red looks evil-er :P )

Red is the "natural" color of a synthetic crystal, which the Sith prefer. The Jedi view synth crystals as a means of quick power, and therefore advocate the use of naturally occurring crystals.

It is also just makes better sense that the Sith attain their crystals from a source uncommon with the Jedi as it would make for an uncomfortable situation when constructing a saber. I envision a parallel to the cartoon with the sheep dog and the coyote clocking in to play their respective roles.

Jedi: "Hey Darth."
Sith: "Hey Jed."
Jedi: "Whatcha up to?"
Sith: "Looking for a crystal for my new saber, so I can start killing Jedi. You?"
Jedi: "The same. Only I plan on killing Sith."
Sith: "Yeah. Well, good luck."

It's just not going to happen.

However, due to the Empire's outlawing of lightsabers and the classification of crystal producing worlds, Luke (somehow) managed to create a green synth crystal for his new saber in ROTJ. Apparently color can be infused into a synth crystal, but the Sith generally just don't take the time to do so.

To piggy back off of Logos:

(This is all "Legends")

"The synthetic crystals, favored by users of the dark side for their offensive properties, were impregnated with the negative energies of their creators which gave to the crystals their red color."

(Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_crystal#Significance_of_colors)

"The Jedi Order had an advanced technique that allowed, in case of need, the cleaning of synthetic crystals made by Dark Side users from the hate of their former owners. In 41 ABY, Jaden Korr, who had lost his lightsaber, used the Force to banish the Dark Side from the red crystal of a Dark Jedi he had killed. Through meditation, he was able to remove all traces of the Dark Side and imbue the crystal with the Light Side, turning the Dark Jedi's lightsaber into a yellow-bladed Jedi weapon."

(Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_crystal#Preparation)
________________

I would assume that since Luke's crystal is synthetic, but made from the opposite end of the force spectrum, that is why his turned out green.

Apparently the source references have changed since I last read it.

Regarding Darth Bane...bear in mind before I answer that I approach things from a perspective that could be described as an unconventional Sith, so my answer probably manages to not represent the majority of the Sith Order AND still run counter to anything the Jedi would advocate.

On one hand, from a pragmatic standpoint I can see where Darth Bane was going with the Rule of Two, and yes, it did stop the infighting sufficiently to allow for a kind of long-range planning that prior to that point had not been possible for the Sith Order.

On the other, I think that Bane's actions destroyed the useful side of Sith independence, creating a rigidity of thought that now equaled that of the Jedi.  The Sith code notes that through victory one's chains should be broken and that the Force should set one free.  The degree of ideological conformity created by bringing the entire Sith Order down to the relationship between two individuals alone (which I have to figure is extremely stifling to say the least) in my mind abrogates that part of the code.

As some of you might have noticed from another thread or two, I would have considered the failed reforms of Darth Imperius (SWTOR Inquisitor storyline, non-canon "light side" version of Darth Nox) a solution more in keeping with the Sith Code.  It was individual agency that allowed Imperius (AND Bane!) to think outside the box and identify what was wrong with the Sith Order and attempt their solutions to varying degrees of success.  We have to assume that in the timeline where Imperius existed that his solution of trying to rein in Sith excesses and institute a more pragmatic version of the Order that does not...well, brutalize for the lulz, or ignore the usefulness of establishing a bit of actual trustworthiness, and takes its mission as Empire defense rather than totally one of personal power.  

(This by NO means indicates being like the Jedi, and it's even more striking when you watch these cutscenes that enmity would likely always remain on grounds that the Jedi will not accept any use of the dark side or any harsher tactics ever, nor be willing to accept the Sith philosophy allowing the full range of sentient experience...there are even clear instances seen in an LS V run with the Inquisitor of Jedi knee-jerk reacting to the Inquisitor even when they have already detected evidence that there is something different, and he has presented them with a chance to get out of his way.)

Obviously Imperius failed in his timeline, either because he was cut down at some point by a Darth who was more brutal than pragmatic and his followers killed as well, or because anything he did manage to introduce during his lifetime gets undone at the soonest opportunity. (Dialogue with Ashara Zavros suggests to me that this version of Lord Kallig may not have been expecting to live to old age, making me think it would have been the former.)

Anyway, just my thoughts.

I agree with your take on Bane, to a point.

With the Rule of Two the concept states "a Master to hold the power, and an apprentice to crave it." Basically, when you become Master, you are then capable of letting your individuality out.

Likewise, in Darth Plagueis, Sidious did what he was instructed to do without question until the moment when he seized power for himself. Then he was able to do things his way.

When Bane dictated that Zannah would master Soresu, it was because years of combat experience told him that her slight frame would not be able to launch an effective assault in saber combat. But being able to put up a nigh impenetrable wall of defense to wear her opponent down would best suit her.

That and a double bladed Lightsaber, despite what the jedi thought, is ideally suited to the defensive nature of Form III.

I believe it goes: "One to embody the power, the other to crave it." I could be wrong though. :)

tomāto  tomäto

Huh? ???

Two different ways to say the same thing.

You might not be able to see it, but the fist tomato has a long "A" sound, while the second tomato has an umlaut over the a, changing the pronunciation to "ah."  Toe-may-toe vs. toe-mah-toe.

points. Exactly that.

@ Calon,

It's an old expression that means exactly what Viv said.

Thank you. It all makes sense now.


It all means the same, I was merely quoting the " official" saying. :)  Are you one to use things (for lack of better word) that people don't understand, or have I just not heard of them 'cause of my young age? (does that make sense?)

For Logos, it's both.  In this case it's probably your young age though.  :)

It is. The tomato reference is well older than I am.

Anyway, we're getting off course.

*clears throat*
 So....

Sorry, dude. This isn't a chat thread. It was designed solely to discuss and distribute knowledge of the Dark Side to those not as well versed in the EU.

Why does the Dark Side make its users Fugly? lol

Probably for a similar reason that stress and worry can manifest themselves physically in the body. The brain is a very powerful organ, and strong negative emotions take their toll.

However, this is not always the case. I've heard of a Sith technique to negate these disfiguring effects. Supposedly Sidious used it. It's part of the Force Concealment, but when he fried himself with lightning the effects quickly faded, revealing the toll the Dark Side had taken on him.

My personal theory, based on more empirical evidence throughout the EU, is that DS users have a tendency to be more confrontational, and therefore take more asswhoopins.
Zannah remained a hottie. Talon was left unscathed, but I think that was nerd-boys being nerd-boys. Malgus was pretty handsome (outside the grey skin) until he tried to stop a missile with his face, and then had a thermal detonator go off by his head, and then got Force slammed so hard into a mountain it left a hole.

According to what I've read in Revan, older members of the Sith Order do show the "fugly" effects of the Dark Side. Darth Nyriss was supposed to have shown these ravages to such a degree that even her smile made Lord Scourge want to cringe. (Yikes)

Lol Malgus is awesome.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Anakin-Jedi.jpg)

It's also worth noting that there was a near immediate change in Anakin's looks (most noticeable in his eyes)  after he fell to the dark side.


(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/nHNbXfbjI2k/maxresdefault.jpg)


(http://i.stack.imgur.com/Ex5Pa.png)


And if you'll notice, In ROTS Vader didn't have the typical gray skin look commonly associated with the Sith,

(http://images-cdn.moviepilot.com/image/upload/c_fill,h_816,t_mp_quality,w_1918/-c2fbf51c-a445-4a4a-983b-326111584b35.jpg)

Whereas he did in ROTJ -- obviously the result of years of DS use.

I think Vader's skin coloration change was due mostly lack of exposure to any natural light source for years.  Fairly certain that his meditation chamber where he could remove his mask for a short time probably didn't have a sun lamp.

And I liked that Satel had to hit Malgus twice to shove him through the mountain.  Then he goes and hunts down two more jedi, one of whom drops a building on him, before Malgus literally incinerate him with Force Lightning.  Then he goes and gets medical attention.

I believe this change in the eyes was due to being "in the moment" of channeling the Dark Side, because after he's done killin' his eyes revert back to their normal color.


It's also also worth noting, that Vader didn't have any skin left after the Battle of Mustifar.


Vader still has pigment in his skin in ESB, and apparently it is just the lighting in the docking bay that gives him the grey coloring. Also, the Emperor in ROTJ was pale, but not grey. I feel that they kind of screwed up the continuity in ROTS by making his skin too grey.


From what little I've managed to read about Malgus, he is not one to be underestimated. According to the Book of the Sith, his rage was so substantial that after he is told of a comrade's death that his scream was enough to make the ears of the bridge crew bleed. Also while this was going on, the Force was literally shredding Republic battle ships. Whether or not this effect was conscious, I cannot say. But it does go to further prove that Malgus had serious anger issues. ;)

Thank you both, Logos and Viv, and sorry for going off topic.

When you roll with me it's bound to happen.

Yes, now that you mention it, I realize it's very true. ;)


Hey! You set me up for another completely off topic post. :P

Technically they were just space superiority fighters, and he just over loaded their fuel cells so they exploded, but yes, he was grumpy at the time.

I don't think I'd say he had anger issues, since most of the time he was able to channel his rage into something useful.  I don't know if you've seen th cinematic of him getting blasted into the mountain, but he's clearly using his anger and rage to fight against Satel's force push and until she Hadooken's him with the second blast, he's actually winning, pulling himself away from the mountain.

Here's the Wookieepedia article on him, and it's a very good read: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Malgus

Seen it many times. I wasn't being serious about having issues, but one has to admit that his anger is palpable. You can see it in how he fights; in the expressions on his face.

Kham-ryn described to me from his study of the character that Malgus was a being of pure anger/hatred (can't remember the exact term he used). I gathered from that, that Eleena was the only being he truly had any other feelings for.

Stickied this topic per the request of others - its counterpart the Jedi Academy also got a sticky so make sure to visit it too.
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=28154.0

(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w405/seanhewer/datacron_zpskvvxkvcs.jpg)

Cool holocron...I LOVE the colors in it...where did that come from?

Many google searches, and lots of boredom...lol

dang! that is bad ass! i always thought the sith holocron was cooler looking...ill looking into making my own maybe :) and a jedi holocron

That is really cool. I would love to get one made where it was my character's holocron.


The sith holocrons are cooler looking. They are shaped like pyramids instead of stupid cubes. It is said in the Book of Sith that the sith holocrons are designed to incorporate great power.

Alright, I hate to be "that guy", but this thread was intended solely for educational purposes, and not for general chitchat.

These are some good Sith hangouts:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=26429.0
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=11019.0
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=23475.0

Apologies my Lord. Right you are.

A point, then, for pointing that out.  :)

Very well, some educational materials on various Sith Holocrons: 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Holocron
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_holocron/Legends

And my personal favorite, a Holocron like no other:

(http://i722.photobucket.com/albums/ww221/William_Fruit/image_zpsf1wxgvms.jpeg) (http://s722.photobucket.com/user/William_Fruit/media/image_zpsf1wxgvms.jpeg.html)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telos_Holocron

Does anyone recall what the etymology of "Darth" is?

This is from Wookiepedia:

Darth is often thought to be a combination of letters from the title Dark Lord of the Sith, a theory which is alluded to in Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force. Darth may also be a portmanteau of dark and death.

Is that what dar'ta was? I remember reading something that Darth descended from that.

From the Legends section on the "Darth" title:

Some historians suggest that "Darth" is actually a corruption of the Rakata word Daritha, meaning "emperor". Others note another Rakatan connection: the words for "triumph" or "conquest" in Rakatan is darr, and the word for "death" is tah, leading to the theory that "Darth" is derived from darr tah and therefore means "triumph over death" or "immortal". Given the Sith obsession with discovering the means to achieve immortality, this idea is not entirely without merit, at least on the surface. But others point out that the true meaning of darr tah is "conquest through death," meaning the conquest of one's enemies.[1]

Ultimately, the flaw in such theories involving a Rakatan origin is that, even if they are accurate, they cannot spring specifically from Revan or Malak's re-discovery of the Rakata and the Star Forge. Five years prior to their emergence as Sith Lords (3964 BBY), the title "Darth" was already well known by the Jedi in connection to the Sith, which is why Padawan Zayne Carrick could call Jarael "Darth Sunshine". In addition, Haazen claimed that if he were to take a name like the Sith of old, it would be "Darth Hayze," all but asserting that the title Darth was around prior to Revan and Malak's discovery.[2] There is still the possibility that one of the Rakatan theories could be correct, since the ancient Sith homeworld of Korriban had once been occupied by the Rakata (circa 28,000 BBY), which is one way either the Daritha or darr tah term could have entered the ancient Sith language. Darth Andeddu lived during the time of the old Sith Empire (6900 BBY to 5000 BBY), early enough for his holocron to come into the possession of the fallen Jedi Freedon Nadd.[3] He was known for experiments into eternal life, a possible link to the Rakatan term.
But even if the Rakatan connection proves to have some validity, numerous other cultures make similar claims to the etymology of the title, so for the present, there is no definitive answer as to what the term "Darth" truly means.

Full reading, which also contains a fairly comprehensive list to notable Darths, can be found here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth/Legends

While a cursory search online provides no more info than Vivectius gave (-1), and it makes perfect sense that "Darth" is a portmanteau of the words "dark" and "sith", and there are even numerous quotes from Lucas himself saying just that, I always considered "Darth" to be an honorary reserved for the extreme elite like "professor" or "doctor".

The main reason I didn't use that title in my own forum handle, is that, to me, in order to earn the title of Darth, one must kill a Darth.  I have not done so in any sense.

Also, I didn't want it to seem like I already knew a lot, when I so don't. :)

Actually, at one point I read that there was an actual initiation/rite of passage/test to earn the Darth title, but that was a while ago and has been superseded even in non-canon writing.

[Note: The following is said "in character" and is NOT meant to be a personal insult or criticism in the real world.  If you decide to take it that way, it's your own fault because that's NOT how I mean it.]
 I don't use a title because I don't need one.  To me, titles are for those who are unsure of who they are or what their place in the universe is.  Their insecurity in themselves forces them to try to define who they are by their title, whether it be "Master" Jedi, "Darth" Sith, "Count" Wannabe, or "Lord" Cyborg. Their actions fail to inspire fear or respect, so they seek to demand it by being addressed by their title.  Bane would be disgusted by everyone running around with the Darth or Lord title here.  And the really confusing people with a title from one order but affiliation to another. 

I have known a lot of scary men. And they all have one thing in common. They don't talk about how scary they are.

Awesome work. -1

Currently reading Lost Tribe of the Sith. I'm a little confused about the Force dissemination in it.

The story begins in 5000 BBY. The Sith involved in the story all seem to have some command of the Force, but are not Lords, nor are any called Darth. Is this before the Sith started using the title? Or were there lesser Force sensatives within the Empire that had more menial positions, like captaining a mining transport? Would these individuals be more in line with Acolytes?

Sith ways and force uses vary at different stages in history. Book of Sith suggests that the Darth title was overused at one point. It was originally a very respected and difficult title to earn before everyone started calling themselves Darth.

I'm not certain of the timing of Lost Tribe of the Sith, but Sith were a species of force capable who mostly utilized alchemy and the like at one time rather than what we see of Jedi and Palpatine. Later, dark Jedi came and took control, as they knew more about using the force directly and could overpower Sith leaders. They learned the dark side arts of alchemy from the Sith and used alchemy to cross breed with Pureblood Sith. Later, the Sith had more actually using the force during the time of the Emperor and Revan. In a book called Revan, Darth Scourge is surprised at Revan's power and learns from him.

From what I'm reading of older days, I suspect the Sith are so competitive and dominated by rage, their actual force use is somewhat limited. The Sith rulers will have it. But the underlings are fighting for scraps of knowledge. They're more likely to have items and weapons that increase strength via alchemy than actually know a great deal about the force. Scourge didn't know much about force visions. Most Sith didn't.

Eventually, the Sith fell apart. Defeated by Jedi and fighting amongst themselves, Bane made the rule of two. This greatly changes how we see the Sith. Generations of Sith using the title Darth and following the rule of two with a master passing on a lot of knowledge until the student kills the master and takes an apprentice. Times of many Sith leave each fending for his/her own knowledge and rank.

5000 BBY is right around the time the Sith began to fall apart under defeat by Jedi, and The Sith Emperor (Valkorion) came to rule for over 1000 years.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth/Legends
The earliest use of the title that can be pinned down to a specific year was by Naga Sadow,[4] last of the original Dark Lords of the Sith that ruled the old Sith Empire. The expatriate Lord Vitiate renewed usage of the title in his reformed Empire. There, the "Darth" title was used by high-ranking Sith Lords, including members of the Dark Council.[5][6] Later Sith Lords of the Jedi Civil War era also used the title Darth, as did the founding Sith Lord of the Light and Darkness War, Darth Ruin, though there were few later Sith bearing the title until the rise of Darth Rivan and Darth Bane.[1] During the Draggulch Period, Lord Kaan discouraged the usage of the term within the Brotherhood of Darkness, claiming that it promoted rivalry among the Sith. Darth Bane, believing that the reason was merely fear, revived the use of the title in the last days of the Brotherhood.[7] Bane, as the only survivor of the Sith Order after the Seventh Battle of Ruusan, was largely able to reshape the Sith in his own image, instituting such reforms as the Sith of his lineage adopted the Darth title as he did, generally coupling it with a new Sith name (e.g. Sidious, Tyranus, Vader), which appears to have been chosen for the apprentice by the master at the time the apprentice swore allegiance to the Sith.[8][9] Not all usages of the term "Darth" during this time, however, preceded a Sith name, as Darth Maul's name had the title of "Darth" preceding his birth name.[10]

Excellent source. Maul was not the only notable instance of using his birth name as his Sith name as well. The first in the Bane lineage was his apprentice Zannah. Although Zannah was her birth name, those closest to her called her Rain. When she swore allegiance to the Sith, she reverted back to the name she never used.

I absolutely love this thread kudos & DS points Darth Logos. I have read pretty much every Star wars novel apart from some of the latest releases(I'm not bragging when I say this. It only proves Im a total SWnerd lol). but my recall is not great(medical thing) so every few years I get to read them again as if for the first time lol. Love reading this thread as it makes me think "oh yeah I should read that again"
Where my knowledge really falls down is where the graphic novel/Comics come in . I look forward to reading more here :)

I just found out about the character the Son. I saw images of him putting out red lightning. Is the red color of any significance?

As far as is known, color does not denote any special significance.

From Force Lightning/Legends:

While most Force Lightning manifested itself as blue, it could appear in several hues, though whether or not the color is distinctive was unclear. For example, Palpatine, Darth Bane and Darth Nox had all used purple lightning. The Hidden One used white. Talzin and Mother were seen using green. Dark side users like Darth Desolous, Darth Tenebrous, Son and Luke Skywalker were seen wielding red. Jaina Solo also used a highly unusual color variant, in the form of black.[55]

Full article can be found here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning/Legends

Hmmm.... I know the predominant color of Sith lightning is purple/blue, but I've also heard of instances of Jedi using a variant of the ability that manifests in green.

Thanks. -1

http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Lightning

It drains the Force from the user. It's heat is from cosmic energy instead of electrical.

Green lightning is mentioned as a forbidden technique in Jedi Path. It is based on an emotional sense of justice. It is not known if it could kill, like blue/purple Sith lightning.

It drains the Force from the user or the target?

Target. Oops. Point taken...errr, given in this case.  ;)

Hmm.....

And I didn't read that it gives force to the user. It's not a force drain thing, from what I read. Though, I do remember something like that in a game. Jedi Academy maybe?

Oh. I highly doubt that survived the Purge.

We know almost nothing about red lightning post purge. The Son uses it. I think that's all we know. With the new singing Kyber crystals canon, I think they'll do anything they want. It feels like the wands that pick their owner in Harry Potter. I won't be surprised if we get Jedi polyjuice potion and Sithsbane repellant. Jedi and Sith are not Slytherin and Hufflepuff!!! Rant complete.

Are there any non-Sith dark side user examples?

I'm wondering about these Knights of Ren. I expect examples in Original canon will be borrowed from to make these Knights of Ren. Knights has such an honorable association. It should be more than just self serving.

Are there old Sith origin groups or non-Sith groups that use the dark side for some other higher purpose?

I know there are those who think Jedi should eventually train to be able to use the dark side without falling to it completely.

Yes, quite a few, although most of them are before the Sith species was discovered.

Probably the most well known example would be the Nightsisters.

Going way back in history, you have the Legions of Lettow: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Legions_of_Lettow

For the love of Skywalker, tell me this is not seriously a thing.

This leads me to another question that pertains more to the Jedi, that I will ask in the other thread.


From my research in the Book of the Sith, the Sith were simply a species that had intimate knowledge of the Dark Side, but (from what I understood) not much knowledge of the Force. The Dark Side was regarded more as a form of sorcery. After (I believe) the first Great Schism of the Jedi Order, a group of outcast Dark Jedi found their way to Korriban, where they subjugated the Sith species (later to become known as Sith Purebloods). The conquering Dark Jedi then became referred to as Dark Lords of the Sith, as in they lorded over them. As the two societies mingled, the whole simply became known as the Sith, and the title of Dark Lord became that of a high ranking Dark Side adept.

Later on, in the Bane trilogy, the "Sith" known as the Brotherhood of Darkness were little more than a pale shadow of what the name used to represent. During his academic exile, Bane discovered what the Sith used to be. He concluded that the Brotherhood was nothing more than a shadowy reflection of the Jedi Order, and set out to destroy both. By doing so, he fulfilled the prophecy of the Sith'ari: the one who would bring new strength to the order by destroying it. By reducing the purported number of Sith in the galaxy to 2, he made the order all but invisible and regarded as nothing more than rumor for more than a millennium. During the events of Legacy of Evil, Zannah decided to make her play for the mantel or Master. She encountered a dark Jedi who had been seeking Dark Side artifacts. He proved to be nothing more than a coward. Seeking only to enrich his own life, he believed in nothing. However, as her first candidate escaped, she encountered another in the form of a Force sensitive bounty hunter known as the Huntress. After her seeming defeat of Darth Bane, Zannah took the Huntress as her new apprentice, Darth Cognis.

The Nightsisters of Dathomir were another such organization that utilized the Dark Side as a form of sorcery. And according to the story of Lost Tribe of the Sith, a population of Sith still exist on the planet of Kesh. But due to atmospheric issues, as well as a lack of natural resources, they were unable to get off-world until events in the Fate of the Jedi series.

I've read Book of Sith. I don't consider Dathomir's Nightsisters real force users. They don't consider themselves that either. Though they'd compare to old Sith before the dark Jedi came. I wanted to know of Sith with higher purpose besides power and self preservation, like Bane who found a new way to preserve Sith teachings with rule of 2 but still just serves himself. Knights just doesn't fit a self serving group in our modern use of the word. Although, reality was knights were soldiers serving the king and his lords within a class system of dominance. We've come to expect an honorable association from the word knight.

I also wanted to know of other groups not connected to the Sith knowledge path that might be comparable to what we're expecting of Knights of Ren who can defeat Jedi. I would be disappointed to find it's just another Sith offshoot besides Darth.

That is the whole point behind the Sith. The ultimate authority is self. Bane destroyed the Brotherhood for his own ideals. However, he did establish the Grand Plan, which was the eventual destruction of the Jedi and the take over of the Republic, which culminated in Darth Sidious. Bane's motives were less selfish than most Sith, but his quest for more power was no less insatiable. Bane believed the truth that power is a means to an end, not the end itself. As far as what was divulged in the trilogy, it is unclear what Bane had in mind for the galaxy once the Grand Plan reached fruition.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the bounty hunter known as the Huntress was a very capable assassin, that good resourcefully dispatch your average Jedi knight. Once she learned that her power could grow, she accepted Zannah's "invitation" to become the Sith Apprentice.

[Side note: It would have made an interesting read had someone continued writing stories surrounding the Bane line of succession up to Darth Plagueis.]

I fear however that the Knights of Ren will be nothing more than Force sensitive thugs that work for Snoke, in a similar fashion to SWR's Inquisitors.


Darth Tepes, do you know of any parallels in the OC to the KoR?

I'm sure this is written somewhere, but I have not read many SW books sadly :'(  But my question is who was Darth Plagueis' master, and was Plagueis actually Sidious's master?  I am also wondering where Snoke came from, but since Episode VIII has not yet come out, I don't think anyone can give me a true answer to this question.

In EU canon, Plagueis was Sidious' master. Tenebrous appeared in Luceno's 2012 novel, Darth Plagueis, as the Master of Darth Plagueis.

Snoke is not EU canon. He's Disney canon. Origin not yet defined. It is confirmed that he is very old, as is Maz Kanata.

My sources have no confirmed identity of Snoke. Many believe he is a blast from the past. It is a common thread that Dark Siders often end up mangled and deformed in their quests for greater power. IE:

Vader - loss of limbs and skin requiring full body iso-suit
Bane - covered in orbalisks
Malak - loss of lower jaw
Malgus - half his face blown off by a thermal detonator
Sidious - ravaged by his own lightning
Plagueis - can't remember specifics, but recall a scene depicting him having to drink through his nose. (even though I have mixed info on whether Muuns even have noses.)

But a true testament of "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger", just not necessarily very pretty. ;) (Apologies for the circuitous explanation) My personal theory on Snoke is that he is the same species as Maz, and is pulling a Wizard of Oz technique to make himself more imposing.

(https://aiguillemedia.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/snoke-head.jpg?w=768)(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/e/e6/Maz_Kanata_HS.png/revision/latest?cb=20160416223126)

After leaving Bal'Demnic (Battle of BalDemnic) Plagueis went on to Naboo where he met Shreeve Palpatine. During this time Plagueis was the victim of an assassination attempt. He survived but had to have mechanical breathing apparatus. Later when Palpatine was elected Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, Plagueis celebrated with Palpatine but drank too much and Palpatine took advantage of his Master's drunken state and killed him.

Your recollection of drinking through his "nose" may be correct. In the Plagueis novel when Palpatine is checking his Master to ensure he was dead, Plagueis is described as having a very flat deformed nose,"the tip of which almost touched his top lip." And with the breathing apparatus there may have been a tube attached for drinking.
Hope this is of interest.

But looking here at, who I believe is Larsh Hill, Muuns don't seem to have noses to begin with.

(http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwarsmush/images/f/f9/Alien_snp_Muun.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090214195755)

This is also corroborated by an interpretation of Darth Plagueis
(http://pm1.narvii.com/6070/b047450fa1f300e360175477bba18f11a00c794a_hq.jpg)

But then is countered by
(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/5/5d/Darth_Plagueis.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111214192141)


Also of potential interest, Darth Tenebrous is a Bith
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/f2/DarthTenebrous-SWI130.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111215024512)

Hello Darth Logos,

I see what you mean, I just imagined the nose to be flat (similar to a Bulldog type dog) from the description that's all. (If I read everything correctly, Darth Plagueis killed Tenebrous in the mines of Bal'Demnic by crushing him in a cave-in then snapping his neck to make sure)

You mean like the Klatooians?
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/e/e4/Klatooinian_NEGAS.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20061205191555)



Yes, I can't remember what they were mining for, cortosis or frick, but Plagueis sensed his moment and claimed the mantel of Master.

Hi again,

Similar to Klatooians or Neimoidians (Nute "Is it legal?" Guunray).

The mines on BalDemnic had Cortosis in them. I know, I fought alongside Halagad Ventor and Sha Koon during the Battle of Bal'Demnic in my backstory.
The CIS wanted control of the ore for their war efforts but the Kon'me, the planet's natives fought back but also turned on the the two Jedi and their troops who had been sent to help them. (A very messy affair, I got badly injured!)

Yes but the incident involving Plagueis was long before even the events of Ep. I. But that was what I loved about the Bane trilogy, Darth Plagueis, and Cloak of Deception; the intricacy with which the Grand Plan unfolded, and how deeply it grew behind the scenes.

If Plagueis celebrated when Palpatine became Supreme Chancellor, Maul was Palpatine's apprentice while Palpatine was still Plagueis' apprentice. Similar to Ventress being under Dooku while Dooku was under Palpatine or Savage Opress under Dooku or Opress under Maul. The rule of two just wasn't followed at all. It's more like an idea for keeping Sith leaders hidden rather than an actual rule. So much knowledge must've been lost while the Jedi archives would just keep stock piling what most Jedi would never take the time to review.

When did Palpatine kill Plagueis?

Apparently around the same time Maul was dueling Obi-wan and Qui-gon.  So after Padme left for Naboo, but before Palpatine joined them on Naboo after the battle to mourn the loss of Qui-gon.

ithekro said what I was about to. My laptop just locked up on me while I was checking my facts or I'd haved posted sooner.

point to ithekro

Thanks guys, clears it up.  But I always thought that because of the story Sidious tells Anakin in ROTS that Plagueis before the Ep. I.

The Sith have a rather noted habit of bending the truth to suit there needs. Sidious needed to bend Anakin's ear without tipping his hand as a Sith Lord. The book played off this "legend" beautifully, and also lends to how Sidious knew the story so well. Other than the inconsistency that Plagueis was murdered in his sleep. In the book (mild SPOILER ALERT!) Sidious felt he had learned all he could and revealed his true power (significantly greater than Plagueus') and brought the roof down on him, literally.


Yes, according to the book, Sidious was still the Apprentice throughout the events of TPM. He masqueraded as the Master so that those serving him would not question his authority of the operation. Maul was kept in the dark as well, and trained merely as an assassin, not a true Sith Apprentice. Sidious did not make his play for power until after the battle of Naboo.

Also of interest, Sidious had delusions of the line of Bane ending with himself permanently seated on the throne. According to my sources, Sidious never properly trained an Apprentice to follow and continue the line of succession. But as we all know, his greed did result in the end of the Sith. At least according to the accepted canon. The book Lost Tribe of the Sith depicts a lost tribe on a planet that no one knows of until the book Omen, from the Fate of the Jedi series.

In TCW Maul says that he was once apprenticed to the most powerful being in the galaxy, I'm assuming this is because he did not know that Sidious was not an actual master?

Correct. The same ploy was also utilized in dealing with the Trade Federation. It is difficult to inspire that much raw fear if your subordinates believe they can appeal to a higher power. However, if you are the highest power, they will not question your absolute authority.

One thing that has always confounded me; what exactly is the difference between Sith Sorcery and Dark Side force powers?

Sorcery usually deals with power over the mind. It is common to manifest visions of an opponent's worst fears to such a degree that they are crippled by panic. Depending on the severity of the attack, the victim can be simply left in a state of hysteria, and no longer a threat. It's difficult to master, and not everyone is capable of it. Darth Zannah was noted as being particularly gifted with it. So much so that Darth Bane threatened to kill her if she ever attempted to use it on him while serving as his apprentice.

Sith Sorcery usually affects objects or imbues talismans which affect a user. Some sorcery uses blood. The Sith species was using sorcery for a long time before Dark Jedi came to make them into what they became. The Dark Jedi were Jedi that had fallen, so they knew more about direct Force use, which is how they defeated them and became Sith rulers. They used Sith Sorcery to be able to hybridize with them.

A nice example can be seen in the last season of The Clone Wars, either the last episode or the one before that.  Darth Sidious and Darth Tyrannus use it against Yoda. 

I think you mean Lords of the Sith. ;)

Ahh, thank you. That makes some more sense.

We aim to please.......and take over the universe. ;D

Not all of us: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vectivus

Then he was clearly NOT Sith.

Is it possible to control the colour of Sith Lightning? Bane had violet, Dooku had blue, The son (TCW) had red, Palpatine used blue in the OT and a mix of blue and purple in the PT.

I think the idea is that red is different. Blue and purple are essentially the same. Writers in books describe purple. Special effects of OT were mixed, but blue dominant.

http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Lightning

I think it falls under the artist's vision. Real lightning is white but often depicted with a blue aura. Sith Lightning is often pictured or described as being purple in color. I've asked about the Son's red lightning already but was told that its color depicted no significance. Sidious and Bane were also characterized as exceptionally powerful in the Dark Side. Dooku's "blue" lightning may signify a general lack of strength in the technique. In Rule of Two, a wannabe DS user tried to challenge Bane with disastrous results. Having never come across a true Sith, he fancied himself badass because he could generate lightning. It was so laughably weak that it came out as a single tendril of electricity. His final moments were spent being utterly destroyed by Bane's reciprocation.

I have theorized that lightning could go hand in hand with a tweak to the DC crystal canon, in which its color is derived from the emotion drawn on to generate it. According to the book of the Jedi, an LS technique exists that produces green lightning which is conjured from feelings of supreme righteousness/justice.

I always thought that the Son had red lightning because he was the Sith 'balancing point', so to speak, and therefore was extremely powerful, causing his lightning to turn red.

No, he was the embodiment of the Dark Side. I was left with questions after the Mortis arc. Was it all just a mass hallucination, or were they actually transported there? I question this as I would have assumed that since the Son should have been the pinnacle of Dark Side ability that his lightning would have had a far more destructive effect, that nothing could withstand.

Like the Phoenix vs. Prof. X level destruction.
(http://jarviscity.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/X-Men-The-Last-Stand-Xavier-Dies.jpg)

Yeah, embodiment is the phrase I was looking for. I think that they were transported to another dimension that time did not pass the same in, sort of like going to Narnia, time is messed up in the real world. but it wasn't a hallucination. I think his lightning is as you say, and it has a far more destructive effect. I like your analogy of Pheonix and Prof. X.

If this were the case, those hit with it would have been killed at the very least. Sidious' and Bane's lightning were reportedly capable of killing. If the Son's was that much more potent, why didn't anyone die? (beyond the fact that it was a kids' show)

So from what I have read and been told there are different types of jedi. light, dark, grey etc. and different bad/evil jedi most of which are Sith but as far as I know Sith is only one order of the dark side so could someone please clarify the different types of jedi both good and bad and how they tend to operate, what they do and what there tendencies are if that makes sense?

The Sith are the ultimate in DS. It isn't just a state of mind, it's a way of life. The full title is Dark Lord of the Sith which came from the original Dark Jedi that conquered the Sith species (later known as Sith purebloods) on Korriban after being exiled from the Old Republic. As time passed, the Sith Empire fell. The name eventually became synonymous with DS opposition to the Jedi. Even the Brotherhood of Darkness referred to themselves as Sith, but were really not much more than a Dark Jedi Order. With Darth Bane assuming his role as the Sith'ari, and restructuring (;)) the organization, the duo of master and apprentice reverted to titles like Dark Lords of the Sith or Sith Lords.

Dark Jedi are more self serving than the Sith. They usually have no designs on attaining absolute power or galactic domination, but aren't afraid to bully their way through life by means of the DS, and ultimately seek only to acuire....stuff (for lack of a better word), mainly riches.

Light Jedi are simply the goody-two-shoe Jedi we've all come to despise. >:D :P

Grey Jedi come in shades, based on what their personal beliefs are of "going too far." I would classify Mace Windu as a Light Grey: not afraid to pull out some Juyo/Vapaad every now and then, but for the most part sticks to the Jedi Code. Towards the end of TCW, Anakin was beginning to demonstrate darker levels of grey when no one was looking.

Did he ever actually hit somebody with it other than the Father? Or did they always deflect it?

thanks very helpful I need to do some reading on some of the stories not covered in the films

All good info about Lightning, but nothing I didn't already know.  :)

My question being: if there was a Sith who had mastered Force Lightning, does that individual have any control over the colour? I would think no, you can either produce lightning or not. The colour is not your choice. Is that right?

Every good Force user has personal settings for their lightning. Mine are R:125 G:0 B:255

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning
"Force lightning first appeared in Star Wars: Episode VI Return of the Jedi, the final film of the original Star Wars trilogy. In the Expanded Universe, now re-branded as Star Wars Legends, Force lightning had a number of useful variants and could be summoned even by Jedi. These uses, however, are no longer considered canon and in canon media only practitioners of the dark side of the Force have been observed using the skill. "

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning/Legends
At it's core, it is electricity.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment
Emerald Lightning

Well, if the color is based on how powerful you are with lightning, then I would say that you do have control over the color; as long as you are powerful enough to achieve that color lightning. If it's not based on how strong you are, then I would agree with you and say that you do not get to chose, but the Force chooses for you. Probably doesn't help, but that's what I'm here for. ;D

That's exactly what I was wondering. Thanks and +1.

Mine would be red. I would train to the extent that I can do anything from cause physical pain to vaporization on contact. 8)


@TR, makes sense, even though it's wrong. So not unhelpful.

Like I said, that's what I'm here for.

Will watch again, but I thought at least one of our heroes got nailed with it.

Clear your schedule for the next few years. There is much to read.

That's the thing. I haven't come across anything that denotes and significance to the lightning's color. Most times it just comes across "Holy $#!%, that dude can shoot lightning from his fingertips." is usually enough. ;)

We'll just have to start writing some good DS stories that dive into the subject of lightning color.

Not to help?

But this is just the point. Bane and Sidious were no chumps when it came to the power of the Dark Side. Agreed? Yet their respective lightnings have traditionally been purple. Sith Lightning is traditionally characterized as being a manifestation of one's hatred. I'm of a belief that many of the manifestations of the Force are (should be) related to the emotional state of the wielder. Hatred = Purple Lightning. But who is to say that excitement could not also be drawn on to produce.....yellow lightning. Granted it probably would serve a more utilitarian purpose instead of offensive, but still. I interpreted the Son's lightning to be just raw fury, which may explain the red color.

What do you suggest I start with reading wise?

For the best understanding of (what should be) the history of the 'modern' Sith, I advocate the Darth Bane Trilogy.

Revan and Deceived offer a good look into Sith society and social structure of TOR. Lost Tribe also kind of paints a good societal image, but they sort of branched off from the norm. (Still a good read.)

Darth Plagueis, Cloak of Deception, and Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter do a good job of depicting events leading to Palpatine's ascension to power.

Thanks I'll give them a look

Very true.

I'd be up for that.


Certainly agreed.

I like the emotion theory. If it was me I'd want to be able to choose, but it's not, and never will be.

Patience, my young apprentice. When the galaxy is under my rule, I shall rewrite it to a state that pleases me, and many other fans. >:D

You wish.

You are not acquainted with the particulars of my Grand Plan, and therefore have no idea. You might actually enjoy what I have in mind.


I must also point out that this thread is not a place for random discourse, but rather one for academic discussion of the Sith and all things Dark Side.

So what's Taegin doing in here? He has no knowledge. ;)


Okay, different kind of question. Which Sith had the greatest lightsaber skills?

From watching them fight in the movies, I'd say Darth Vader before he was chopped up and burned, or else Darth Sidious. I don't know about any of the Sith that aren't officially canon. Logos will come in a second, and tell me why I am wrong, but that is my opinion based on what I have seen.

Probably Vader before Mustafar.

Assuming Vader didn't exist, would Sidious beat Maul in a straight out lightsaber duel, the Force not being allowed? I don't think so.

This is also movie only characters, we haven't even got into Legends (::)) and new canon yet. Bane was more than formidable, but that's because of his substantial command of the Force too. Zannah (Bane's apprentice) was also good.

Would Maul hinder himself with a double sided saber again?

From reading, Sidious was skilled. I don't know his physical capacity without the Force. He's older experience. Maul's acrobatics expend energy. How much did he depend on the Force to keep it going?

Hinder?

Sidious is certainly skilled, but I imagine he's used to the Force as his first line of defence, and I imagine it's usually enough.

Maul was trained specifically as a warrior, and he's also super fit.

Sidious already beat Maul. We see it in TCW. Maul and Savage get owned by Sidious. Mace Windu barely beats him, in ROTS, and before that, Sidious killed 3 of the other Council members, all of whom were supposedly great warriors with Both the force and a Lightsaber. But that duel between Obi-Wan and Vader in ROTS makes me think that it might be Vader, not to mention his R1 scene. Also Anakin was supposedly almost as good if not better than Yoda was with a Lightsaber, so I think that it is between those two, and there are no other canon Sith that are better fighters than one of them. I don't know if there is ever a battle between Vader and Sidious, but if there was, I half expect that Vader would come out on top. Bane is shown once in TCW, but it is only a manifestation of him, we never see him fight.

Real life weapon specialists have been saying the weapon Maul used would add difficulty. The flare and confusion of two blades attached wears off quickly for experienced swordsman. In a book, Maul was in prison where he couldn't use the Force, so he basically became Riddick. The story felt like it was supposed to be about Riddick, and someone modified it for Maul. So, I know Maul is still a slick son of Dathomir. I just don't know a Forceless Sidious without making assumptions without demonstration. Ray Park could kick Ian McDiarmid's butt. My assumptions didn't write the characters. Maul lost against Sidious in TCW. But, that was sabers and Force.

@TR,  I'm using what I know of Bane from his book trilogy. Also, this can be a Legends character.

@OWK, I fight better with a saber staff than one saber. But I am in no way a weapon specialist.

As mentioned, Sid would crush Maul with the Force allowed, but I still think Maul would win without.

Also, are you talking about Maul: Lockdown?

I haven't read enough books with other Sith, canon or not, so I don't know anything about how good of fighters they are. I am just basing my assumptions off of the movies and TV shows. How much did Sidious actually use the Force in his battle against Maul and Savage? I know he Force pushed them a couple of times, but other than that, I don't think he used it that much.

Just a question that doesn't really belong here, but does anybody else want a live action SW TV series?

Bane, Kas'im, Malgus, Sidious pretty much in that order.  There were other bright spots here and there in Sith history, but they were consistently the best.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kas%27im

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Bane/Legends

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Malgus

And for a bit more Malgus:

http://youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_3146492083&feature=iv&src_vid=NuNvCOUy1Ts&v=RjG61DoDzN8

Remember who trained Maul....Sidious did.  Sidious is a master of ALL forms of lightsaber combat.

In his fight against Maul and Savage...Sidious is laughing.  He is having fun.  Maul is being serious and even attempting to use his rage, but that does nothing against Sidious even before he puts the sabers away and ragdolls Maul around before using the lightning.

If the force isn't allowed at all and it is just a straight up lightsaber fight would a lot of his jumps and acrobatics not have to stop as a lot of it will be using the force to help him get greater hight and that sort of thing? Maul to me is the most skilled however that is based on the films and the actor was a martial artist not and actor like the other sith lords so that might make him look better than the character was suppose to be. Not sure what your thoughts on this are.

Read first post


That is a loaded question. As a Sith Lord, one is already a formidable opponent. Different Sith had varying degrees of saber aptitude.

I'm not certain what form Revan preferred, but he was apparently no slouch with a blade.

Bane, and perhaps Malgus, were skilled in Djem So. Despite their hulking frames, both were exceptionally quick and delivered equal strength in their strikes. From reading the Bane trilogy, I have characterized a defense against Bane's technique as almost futile, as he would bounce you off the floor then knock you across the room. Mad power.
(Also note worthy: despite being comparatively weak in the Force, Bane's saber master at the acadomy was a force to be reckoned with.)

I'm a little shocked that nobody has mentioned Zannah yet. Due to her slight build, Bane knew that she would be ill suited to his strong style. He instead equipped her with a staff and focused her training in fast style, primarily soresu. It was said that Zannah's skills offered her a nigh impenetrable defense that could be maintained for extended periods. This would allow her to wear her opponent down while conserving her own energy, and simply wait for a prime opportunity to strike.

For what little literature there is with the Sith of Bane's lineage, it might be assumed that all in that line were exceptional with a saber.

And let us not forget Tyrannus.  :'(

And we certainly can't forget Exar Kun. Of what little I know of this Jedi gone dark, his saber skills are supposedly legendary. He modified his saber to be double bladed (not a staff)
(http://pm1.narvii.com/6014/a9a5a964bc9e6b408bff79f7b7bb39a41fa5deba_hq.jpg)
It also had a dual-phase modification that allowed instant blade length change mid-combat. This feature combined with the option of single or double blades easily confounds.

I don't recall much of what is about Darth Plagueis' ability in the book of the same name. But as has been depicted in that book, as well as Ep3, and even TCW, Sidious was a madman with a saber. I honestly think he would have been a match for Bane and Zannah combined. But that might be pushing it. ;)


I can't discount Vader from this line-up as (despite showcasing Kenobi's skills was an after thought) Vader was capable of contending with Kenobi pre and post Mustafar. I always viewed certain events as painting the far extent of Obi Wan's saber skills: Defeating Darth Maul when his master could not, and taking on Grievous time and again, when most Jedi, even masters, could not hold their ground against the cyborg. From what I've been told of events depicted in Lords of the Sith, Sidious intentionally sabotaged Vader by equipping him with sub-par prosthetics in order to limit his powers and saber effectiveness to a level that he (Sidious) could easily control.


Maul was also not fully trained. According to Darth Plagueis, Maul was the equivalent of Ventress...an assassin. Sidious had no plans to continue the Sith line. He wanted power to end with him for all time, so he never trained an apprentice to any level that he would be able to be challenged. So despite being the pinnacle of physical fitness, Maul never stood a chance against Sidious.


Different variants offer different strengths and liabilities. I have experienced it first hand. Even the variation between a straight hilt and curved is easily evident. The greatest advantage of a staff is that it take literally half the time to bring a blade around to face your opponent. This advantage is furthered by utilizing Exar Kun's inovations. One notable hindrance in using a staff is a lack of a defensible center because of the way the weapon is held, resulting in a lot of this...

(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/d/d2/Sundjem_Doublelightsaber.png/revision/latest?cb=20121119193540)

Choose your weapon wisely.


Sidious uses the Force to fight the same way that Yoda does. Neither actually has the physical strength anymore to perform their individual maneuvers. I've always deemed they saber skills as an extension of their control of the Force to move their bodies instead of actually relying on their muscles, resulting in faster reflexes and greater dexterity and agility.


Only if it doesn't suck for the sake of ratings and tells a worthy story. ;D


Thanks, I was drawing a blank on his name. Kas'im was Bane's sabermaster. Sadly(-ish) the student quickly usurps the master.

I didn't forget about Tyrannus (Dooku), I purposely left him out because of how bad he lost to Anakin in ROTS. This is not to say that he didn't have some mean saber skills. He beat Obi-Wan twice in the movies, and multiple times in TCW. But Anakin still killed him in the end. That is why I think it is Vader from ROTS. That battle between him and Obi-Wan totally showed of both their saber prowess. They were both exceptional fighters, and if not for Obi-Wan gaining the high ground, I don't know if he would have won.

And as I pointed out earlier, beating Kenobi is no small feat. Although I thought the end of ROTS was a bit contrived. Ok, so he has the high ground. Just move on downriver a bit more than get off. Or nail him with a Force blast, then jump. As far as I know, high ground only counts for anything when using ranged weapons. And don't say a saber throw makes it a ranged weapon.

It was choreographed, but it still looked amazing. And the ground was actually not that much higher than the droid Vader was floating on was.

FYI.....they were all choreographed. :o

Yes, but that one actually looked good. You can't say that about all the other ones.

Okay, so Bane and Sidious seem to be the consistent winners. Out of the two I would choose Bane. I'm still not entirely convinced Sid would beat Maul with no Force, but that's my love of Maul showing through.

@Logos, I did mention Zannah.


So, Ani v Obi, final swing. Obi- Wan gets both legs and one arm in a single swing. How?

First off, it is Vader v. Obi, and second, Vader is flipping trough the air, and Obi swings in an arc. because of the trajectory of both, it causes Obi-Wan's expert swing to cut through all three.

It also avoids the potential of a Monty Python joke by having Vader lose a limb at a time to Obi-wan.

"Your arm's off."

"No it isn't."

"What's that then?"

"Tis but a flesh wound. Have at you!!!"


Purely on combat styles, Sidious would beat Maul due to the massive advantage a skilled Jar'Kai user has over pretty much everyone. There's a reason Kas'im withheld Jar'Kai from all of his students for his own use.  While Bane did defeat him, it was more Bane's skill with the Force, rather than saber skills, that won him the duel (Logos can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Bane dropped at least two walls of a room on him. And then the rest of the room to make sure.)

Jar'Kai, used by someone who knows how to use it correctly, will slaughter someone using either a single saber (only one blade) or a saberstaff (only one blade).

And I completely agree with Logos, Zannah is the absolute best example of how a saberstaff should be used.  Maul is probably the worst I can think of.  The saberstaff is best used as a defensive weapon, not an offensive one.

Duel of the Fates was pretty good. Not as good, but pretty good.

So you did.

Bad writing. ;)

So he manages to sever only Vader's remaining natural limbs and completely miss his previously damaged right arm? ô¿o

Don't remember the particulars of that fight too much beyond its location. TBH, a skilled duelist utilizes what tools he has. NTM both Sith and Jedi utilize the Force to anticipate their opponents' next move. So a duel is never fought without the use of the Force.

At least Bane had some respect for his old blade master. Qordis on the other hand went out like a bitch. Bane crushed him bodily with the Force. Popped him like a zit. >:D Awesome.

It is still a lightsaber, despite being a variant, and still has offensive capabilities as Darth Maul displayed. However its true strength lies in defense.

Yes, definitely one of the better battles. I can't wait to see what the battles look like in Episode VIII


Like I said, expert swing.

Riiiiigggghhhtttt.

Why couldn't he have be knocked over by a volcanic blast and had liquid hot magma sloshed on the limbs-to-be-removed. That would have taken care of the need for burns as well as his new status as a gimp.

It's called convenience.

It's called contrivance.

Which is odd, I would imagine Maul is a very offensive fighter.


Duel of the Fates is my second favourite lightsaber duel so far. Too bad Maul didn't win. Always wondered how the prequels would have played out if he killed Obi-Wan.

He didn't want to make it too hard on Palpatine's droids. ;)

That made me think of this:

*droid voices*

"We're almost done connecting Vader's suit to his remains."

"We've encountered a problem, he lost his right hand again."

"Oh come on. Stupid Jedi."

He is.  Which is why he lost. Too many people forget that a saberstaff is, in functional terms, really a single bladed weapon.  Which, other than choreography reasons, is why Maul had to keep separating Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.  He didn't know how to use the staff defensively, and couldn't cope with more than one opponent at a time.  Fighting cooperatively, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon should have beaten him.  Unfortunately, jedi had long discarded the saberstaff (with a few exceptions, like Krell), so they didn't know how to effectively fight around it. In Universe, the jedi came to consider the saberstaff as "too offensive" a weapon, which is ironic given that it's put to best use defensively.

I will give Maul credit for using the "terrain" to separate and keep separated Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon.  If you cannot beat them together, try fighting them separately.

Useless Maul trivia:  the only time we see Maul blink in the entire movie is when Obi-Wan cuts him in half.

Last thing to consider regarding the Obi-Wan/Vader Mustafar duel, in a comparison to the Obi-Wan/Maul duel: having the high ground doesn't help if you don't remember to cut your opponent.  Vader tries to jump, gets cut down.  Obi-Wan jumps over Maul, doesn't get cut down.  And he didn't go that high over him either.  Seriously, all Maul had to do was stick out his Lightsaber, and Obi-Wan would have bisected himself vertically as he jumped.  So the high ground is only an advantage if you use it.

No he didn't, he was jumping with his arm strength.

You're making good sense. :)


Yeah, but the "good guys" have to win, so of course Maul won't think if that. ::)


Um, no. The Force was heavily involved in that "jump".

Maul used a staff because his Master commanded it. So he would have had to be proficient with it in all cases. The difference in technique between him and Zannah could easily been accounted for by the mere fact that he is built stronger.


(http://cdn.quotesgram.com/img/10/70/234865481-large.jpg)

From what I remember, Maul used a staff because he kept getting beated by a reclusive Jedi with a staff when he was still using only a one bladed weapon.  He then forged a duplicated of his on weapon and merged them into this double bladed lightsaber and was able to catch the Jedi offguard and kill him.    To reflect on the 4,000 years gone Sith Lord  Exar Kun.

Yes I know, but you still wouldn't have as much power in your jump if you were using your arms as you would with your legs.

Uh.........................<_<

What generic discount store are you shopping for EU?

Star Wars Tales #10 (Dark Horse Comics)
Story:  Nameless
December 2001

Yeah......no. I give comics as much credit for having convincing storylines as I do the cartoons.

Read Shadow Hunter.

Does it matter when the Force is involved?


I really want to, but haven't yet. Have you read Maul: Lockdown?

No.

and No

Currently reading the Fate of the Jedi series. Looking forward to getting to Omen which involves the Sith from Lost Tribe. ;D ;D ;D

Does Sith Lightning last for durations beyond the wielder's control?

Referring to the Emperor cooking himself twice; once against Windu and the other during Vader's coup.

Also referencing Darth Bane's self-toasting at the end of Rule of Two.

I think it does, but not for very long. When Sidious zaps Luke in ROTJ, after he stops, there is still electricity flowing through Luke. I don't think it is for very long though.

Not what I'm asking

What are you asking then?

Like why, when the Emperor realized that Vader had picked him up, (or was in the process of falling) didn't he turn off the lightning?

People often don't do the most rational thing when falling to their doom

Okay, well in that case, I think it is more of like when you are tased. Your muscles all seize up and you cant stop doing what you are doing. Probably doesn't make since with the Force, but not much does.

Vader grabbed him in his tickle spots?

More likely that Palpatine was surprised and doing the Sith Lightning equivalent of flailing around trying to fry Vader before he got tossed.  And after he got tossed he was just angry about it and lashing out.

He was zapping Vader, who resisted/endured long enough to finish tossin' Palpatine down the hole. Palpatine just didn't reach around behind him to get direct aim.

So, there you are, soaking up your delicious victory as you focus all your hate into a little brat that's just insulted you for the last time, when the only man you've ever trusted steps in close behind you, placing his hands on you with firm grip on your shoulder and your left buttock. You're feeling more than one kind of electricity spark tonight. He lifts you into the air as you begin to recall the romantic scene when Patrick Swayze lifts Jennifer Grey. Before you can say, "Not now, my Lord Vader," he tosses you into the reactor of your own galactic conquering device. Now, that'll de-ignite your lightsaber real fast.

  ;) :o  :D  ::)

Did the Sith Knights under Revan's Sith Empire have the title of Darth, or did they simply use their real names?


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One would naturally assume that falling might be a good focus breaker, and that the lightning would have ceased. But he continues firing aaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllllllll the way down.

-1 for the laugh.

:-\ But Sidious is a survivor. I doubt he would waste time pitching a fit. That's Vader's shtick. Maybe it's just that good ol' Sith tenacity. I'm not going to stop my attack from a mere hiccup.

I like your thinking on the first part. However, Sidious trusted no one. Especially Vader. The Emperor ruled through fear. So the less you had to fear from him, the greater the liability you were. Vader would have had the greatest chances at direct resistance, ergo he was the greatest threat to Sidious' reign. Haven't read, but I've heard that Lords of the Sith highlights their relationship, and how Sidious gave him sub-par prosthetics so that he would be more easily managed.

I don't believe the title of Darth was ever freely handed out (until Saber Forum ::)). It designated a certain level of skill as well as dedication. Similar to the Sith Acolytes not being at the same level as a Sith Lord.

In the Bane trilogy, Darth Bane reasoned that the Brotherhood of Darkness was actually afraid of the title, and what kind of power it represented. When Bane embraced his destiny as the Sith'ari, he reinstated the title's use, as he would make sure it was bestowed only upon the worthy.

Much appreciated Lord Logos. My character that I cosplay as is a Sith Knight and I needed to know if I needed a Darth title as well.


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Won't make much difference. People will see a red saber and immediately call you Darth. :P

However, I'm not as up to snuff on Revan-era TOR.

They weren't even Sith. Revan and Malak were the only Sith in the known galaxy at that time. The "Sith" under their command were Dark Jedi.

Not so. The Sith existed in what was then called the Unknown Regions; areas of the galaxy previously uncharted by the Republic. Revan and Malak's wills were usurped by the most powerful evil the galaxy had ever known: Emperor Vitiate. Revan's forces were then used as a litmus test to gauge the strength of the Republic and the Jedi. Almost 300 years later, the Sith Empire showed its face and declared war against the Republic. (SWTOR)

The Sith go back at least 20,000 BBY. Revan didn't show up until roughly 3500 BBY.

Fair enough. Same point though really, just different names.


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Republic didn't know about the Sith in the Unknown Regions. Hence my saying "known galaxy".

Who was involved in the Stark Hyperspace War?

What I'm saying is that the Republic and Jedi thought that Revan and Malak were the only Sith. Traya, Sion and Nihilus proved them wrong as did the Sith Empire when it retook Korriban.

Probably not Tony. ;D

The Republic versus the Stark Commercial Combine.  The war lasted only a year (44 BBY), and you'll be shocked to learn that it was orchestrated by Darth Sidious as part of his plan to take over the Galaxy.  Notable events from the war include Nute Gunray becoming Vicroy of the Trade Federation, and Finis Valorum becoming chancellor.

See here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Stark_Hyperspace_War

Shut up


Did some research last night. Found out 2 things.

1) There is a difference between the Stark HS Conflict and the HSWar.
2) The Stark Conflict took place 44 BBY, while the Hyperspace War took place in 5000 BBY, between the Republic and the Sith Empire. This was back in the time of Naga Sadow, roughly 1500yrs before Revan. The defeat of Sadow resulted in his self-imposed exile to Yavin 4.


Don't know where/if the mix up came from (might just be me), but from reading Cloak of deception, I can't remember whether that was when he was made viceroy, or simply the Neimoidians were left in control of the Federation. I'm inclined to the latter, but the memory is foggy today.

The way Twi'leks ought to always look:

(http://i.imgur.com/vghqXte.jpg)

As much as I approve, this thread is more for information and discussion rather than random awesome.

I know.  My apologies.

Plagueis is a stand-alone classic for any Star Wars fanatic. It is the one novel in the canon(or non-canon or legends or whatever) that draws me back time after time & never disappoints.
It can chill you to the bone with its emotional depth in a way no other SW book does.

Not saying I have read them all (but I have read a great deal of em lol)

The Lucas universe & beyond is a mess!  But its our mess & I love it.  ;D

Edit: Ahh, I seem to have commented on something from about a year ago. Apologies. My very late comment stands though. ;D

So then, I've been thinking on something brought up in a conversation with Logos and I.  Why has the force been so under-utilized, especially on the dark side of things.  So much potential for just plain visceral pain, violence, and destruction, but yet it keeps being nerfed, overall.  Is it just the writers not wanting to be that brutal?  A perception that audiences in the wider sense won't accept it?  Small minds and short sightedness? 

Sure, force choke is great for dramatic effect in punishing underlings who fail, but what about force crushing someone's heart?  Ripping the skin from their body?  Sending a force push THROUGH the aorta and causing cascading brain aneurysms...

Such potential lost... Thats ok, gives us creative thinkers an advantage over our adversaries >:D

In Path of Destruction, Darth Bane  [SPOILER ALERTS]

1) crushed a "superior" lord bodily, leaving a mangled heap that once resembled a human. >:D
2) stopped his father's heart before he knew he was a Force sensitive.
3) scared the piss out of a hungry rancor just from his DS aura, and then subsequently broke its will and subjugated it into being his ride to the temple of Darth Revan (I believe)

The bigger issues in using the Force against an opponent arise when that foe is Force sensitive as well. One of the first things taught by both Sith and Jedi is to guard against subtle Force attacks.

---

On a side note, I can't believe this thread has been dead for a year.

Thanks for the spoilers, now send me the trilogy so I can read it.

We need to get it up and running again

I gave you plenty of warning.

And I ignored it  :P

Still need to borrow the books

Ja ja

So, at the risk of asking for <SPOILERS>, does it talk about HOW he stopped the heart?

Also, I wasn't previously aware that Rancors could sense force auras...

So I'm not the only one who hasn't read the Bane trilogy. That makes me feel better.

Me either.  There is a LOT on my to read list.  An overwhelming lot...

Nature itself has an aversion to the Dark Side. All around the temple, nothing grew in a radius of like 30m. All the animals avoided the area. When Bane touched down, the rancor initially came after him thinking "food", but quickly sensed that this potential prey had a similar vibe to the temple. One of those cases when an animal can sense a badder attitude than their's. >:D

Yes, it explains how. I can spoil or just let you be surprised when you read.

Take your butts the B&N and for like $20 you can walk out with the whole thing.

I don't like going in to B&N, but Amazon works too.

So thats why all my roses died off. My Dark aura choked them out  ::)

Whatever. Back when chairs were plentiful, I use to love to go get lost in B&N for hours.

Possibly.

I always preferred Borders over B&N. Been a while since I just went to one to sit and read.

More like working 20 hours a day killed my roses. Hybrid teas do not like to be ignored. But I will continue to tell people it was my Dark aura  ;D

Shut up, Chicago. I don't have a Borders. >:(

No excuses. If Plagueis could sustain life when someone was inches from death, you should be able to maintain roses.

I will try, though like TR, it might have to be Amazon, though in my case, I don't know of a B&N nearby that I can get to.  And then having to have the money free.  Things are tight right now.


I too loved Borders more, are there even still Borders around, I thought they went out of business...

We don't either, they got bought out by B&N and all closed >.<

Bite me. I kriffing raise Orchids and am attempting to hybridize a waterlily. I can sustain life just fine. One just can't ignore hybrid teas.

We might all be a bit off topic.


So, Dark Side, is it really inherently "Dark", or is it really the path of passions and emotions, and just called dark by the Jedi because they hide from their feelings, and the Sith embrace the moniker because it serves our purposes?

It's all that hippy Jedi dogma. The darkness merely comes from within. Using negative emotions to draw strength from. As Yoda said "Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side are they. Easily they flow." I interpret this as they are easily generated, but also produce adrenaline. Adrenaline fuels instinct and usually negates rational thought. And as Uncle Ben Parker said "With great power comes great responsibility." The Jedi of course would frown on the potential to lose control, so naturally they shun the use of these emotions, and any emotional states that could lead to negative emotional states.

What of the rest of the emotional range?  I am curious where they fall, since the fools turn their backs on all emotion.  Anger, fear, aggression all dump adrenaline, as you said.  The other emotions, can produce drive, incite, inspiration, creativity in their own ways, which can add a wealth to the aims and goals of the practicioner.

Unfortunately, the dogma of either side is limiting in it's understanding, leading to an imbalanced person. The Jedi make an effort toward self control, though fall short of it. The Sith promise many things to lure others into their grasp/service, though it is ultimately a lie. As this is all a parallel analogy for psychology and morality, a more complete understanding of emotions and their cause brings wisdom to a Jedi or Sith. A more complete understanding of the emotion to Force influence brings wisdom as well. The Jedi understand the harm that comes from using anger to tap in to the Force pushes back to fuel the anger more. They teach methods in an effort to limit this. However, they limit natural experiences that are essential to understanding oneself and others. The Sith rarely have a very complete understanding. Most are just violent cogs in the Sith machine. Even the most successful and self controlled Sith individuals ultimately fall to their own over confidence, paranoia over losing power or loss of self control by which they destroy what they wanted. Use your anger, don't let it use you. Ultimately, this over simplifies the promise of power, while at least recognizing a potential pit fall. But, this doesn't provide complete experience and wisdom. Usually, the Jedi get more time to share experiences. The Sith hide their knowledge from each other, except when it suits them. A more complete understanding leads to the most powerful and prominent of Sith and Jedi.

While you are not wrong in your overall analysis of the two specific philosophic opposing orders, it's not quite what I am getting at.  If we look past the dogma, past the truth that one would understand more completely to explore it all, the question becomes, neither set of views addresses what of tapping the force with the emotions not considered negative?  As I said, the Jedi in their vain quest for control of self and to play the saints, disavow all passions and emotional connection to the force.  The Sith code would seem to embrace all emotional exploration, but unless I have missed something, there are only provided examples of using the adrenal stimulating emotions, the so called "negative" emotions.  So stepping beyond the dogma and examples (unless there are some that I do not know of, if so, please, enlighten me), is the force thus also accessible and useful as tools of ALL the range of emotion, and if so, does that bring the "sides" of the force down to emotionally accessed vs. access via the Jedi's stunted grasping?

I've seen Force methods as emotional tapping or concentration access. Love can be a powerful motivator, but it's usually fear of losing a loved one that taps the Force. Luke, motivated by love, will still use concentration and training to access the Force. Anakin, used anger, which blinded him and drove him to harm the one he loved. Perhaps love, not fear of losing it, plays some part in the rare ability of healing others.

I'm reminded of the Blackest Night storyline of Green Lantern. Each ring on the spectrum is a metaphor for emotions and how they interact. Perhaps there are base emotions which viscerally link one to the Force, and there is concentration and practice to access the Force. The more complex emotions, other than fear and anger, may have unseen effects on any experienced Force user. Palpatine sure did seem to enjoy other's anger. He was tickled grey as he tapped into his own anger while casting lightning. In truth, people experience mixed emotions. The Jedi are not truly without emotion. Concentration and using ones feelings...which ones?

It's either not explored in the canon writings, or I'd put it in Jedi 'feelings'. Though Sith can also use them, if trained.

I'd say Heir to the Jedi is a good read with at least one example of how emotionally tapping the Force can let one's emotions run out of control. I even think there's something of a sad/happy memory that Luke uses in his meditation that helps him. The Jedi, when trained, are having emotion, but they are urged to stay aware and focused. The Sith are told to use their anger, but how? You've got to know what makes you angry. You've got to obsess over it. Relive the torture. Turn it against any opponent, even one you've just met. It's practicing insanity.

This kinda relates to the current conversation, but in all the stories over in the Fan Fiction section, there are many different ways of viewing and seeing the Force that you may be interested in. One great example is in the stories by Karmack, where he uses the Force to separate the vertebrae, instantly killing the person. There are a few others, like memory stealing, and teleportation and stuff. Kind of some cool ways of applying the Force.

I agree with most of this. The dogma of both sides limits the fullest extents of their abilities. The Jedi shun even having emotions, in order to avoid the negative aspects of having them. Sith mistakenly focus on the quick power of negative emotions. A true Grey (Sith or Jedi) would actually be more powerful than their purist compatriots. Emotions are natural, and serve a purpose in life, so why deny it?

This has been a major complaint of mine with any of the established Sith organizations; the Code is not inherently evil. Power is not an evil thing. The unfortunate aspect comes from the fact that evil people generally seek out power or ways to attain it. Darth Bane premised that power was a means to an end, not the end itself. In his Grand Plan, the acquisition of power/influence in the galaxy was a means to eventually destroy the Jedi.

 WOW! this is awesome deep stuff. I feel I have found my home in this forum. Thanks Darth Logos. I'm now questioning everything I thought about where I stand in all of this. Could you help me determine for sure if I am in fact a Dark Jedi or something else? I have identified as purely Jedi for the last 20 years and recently thought maybe I was a Grey Jedi, but now I don't know. I have way too much emotion, passion and anger to just be a Jedi. I dislike authority in general, I do wish to serve others, and although I don't consider myself to be selfish, I'm far from selfless. I read this a few days ago and have been thinking about it nonstop. I love that my philosophy is being challenged. This is great!     

That's a bit of a loaded question. Have you ever considered Grey Sith?

Is that like Social Justice Sith?

Get out.

Nope. Good point. I will now. Could you expand on what exactly that would be? Thanks.
This is truly intriguing.

Think about what it means to be a Grey Jedi and then reverse it. Envision a Sith that is not bent on galactic domination, doesn't sew fear and loathing everywhere they go, and actually can muster some compassion.

Yep. I think that's me. Interesting. What do you consider yourself? Pure Sith?

Dark Grey Sith.

That sounds about right. Iv'e got to get the books you recommended. I have been a Star Wars fan since 1978 but never got into the E.U. except for The force Unleashed 1 and 2 and KOTOR 1 on the Xbox. I just picked up KOTOR ! and 2 for my computer. I get the feeling I will have a completely different experience now. Thanks. 

It's diminished a bit, but I'm still in the minority that would recommend avoiding anything that doesn't have the "Legends" stamp on it.

In my view, the books open up a world that cannot be contained by the movies.

Joking and distaste of all the various use of "grey Jedi/Sith" so prevalent elsewhere to say "I am a Jedi that can do dark stuff, but I'm still of the light, durp";  the concept is far more fitting, speaking of "grey Sith" as Logos describes it, for most people I know, especially who claim to be Sith, dark Jedi, or the like, than most realize.  It's very hard to not have at least a core of wanting/trying to advance one's own interests, desires, needs first, to give into ad use emotions and emotional states more often than not, and to at least while in the heat of the emotion, wish ill of those who wrong us, even if only in perception.

I could see where it's applying the concepts of self mastery of the Sith, and the concepts of domination and conquest, but toning it down to a very straight forward drive to master one's environment, to forge one's life to the image they will it to be.  Which is a perspective that our culture outwardly nay says, but yet it propogates as what is needed to survive and especially succeed.

Just found this thread, can't believe I missed it...

Logos, the idea of "Gray Sith" is intriguing.  I'm seriously considering trying to figure out some way of referring to force-users who are not followers of the Jedi or Sith religions/codes.  I am thinking as an example of the different martial traditions.  Compare, for example, the concept of the Chivalric Knight to, say, the Samurai.  Both are warrior traditions based on honor and service and the protection of those in your charge.  And they are very, very different.

A Knight who meets a Samurai in battle might think the Samurai evil, particularly when he killed wounded enemies or "assisted" the losing general in performing ritual suicide.  While the Samurai would see the Knight as evil because they deny an honorable death to their enemies, keeping them alive to live on in perpetual shame...

And in between who knows how many warrior traditions.  :-) 

Force users could be similar.  But how would you handle a warrior-sect of force users, maybe even wielding lightsabers, who did NOT adhere to either Jedi or Sith code?  And what do you call them?

In our story universe we're building in the fan fiction board we tend to call light-siders who are not formal Jedi "Gray".  Mainly because they don't hold to the emotional restrictions of the Jedi order.  The ones that I've created, whom I call the Mak'Tor, are more of a religious sect.  They have a strict code of right and wrong that they believe was given to them by the Maker Himself, and they follow that.  Think Old Testament Judaism and you'd be close to my concept, just without the animal sacrifice aspect.  :-)

But other groups are based on other things.

So why not Gray Sith, too? 

Exactly. It's something I started conceiving of trying to understand Sith culture. Do the Sith appreciate fine art or scenic landscapes. Do they have any concept of morality or do they simply live by the ideal of "take what you can"?


You call them Force sensitives/adepts/wielders. Those are what I've come across in my literary travels.


You might be on the fringe of plagiarizing:

http://galaxyquest.wikia.com/wiki/Dr._Lazarus
http://ratchetandclank.wikia.com/wiki/Maktar_Resort


Why not? If there are Jedi who fall away from "the path" why not Sith? Even though, what I have planned with this concept, a Grey Sith is still far more dangerous than a Dark Jedi.

However, according to the Book of Sith, the Sith species was not the origination of the Order we know today. It was actually the Dark(fallen) Jedi that were exiled after the first Great Schism. When they discovered Korriban (I believe) they quickly used their mastery of the Force to conquer the Sith, making them Lords of the Sith. Hence where the modern formal title descends.

I agree, I have often though of what a "Light Sith" rather than a "Dark Jedi" would look like, and the same goes with the "Gray Sith". I really think the best example I can give would be the Mortis gods. They are Force Wielders, and have no allegiance. While not truly gods, they are extremely powerful beings. One who uses the Dark Side of the Force (The Son), one who uses the Light Side of the Force (The Daughter), and one who sits somewhere in the middle (The Father). Even though they wield a certain "side" of the Force, they are not, nor do they consider to be anything close to, a Jedi or a Sith. Another lesser example is the Bendu. Bendu is not afraid of the Dark Side, but nor will he align himself with it. in his own words "I'm the one in the middle".


It is only plagiarism if the creator specifically took it from those things. I know for a fact that Karm did not. He probably didn't even realize those things existed. Plus, different universes.

UGH! I will continue to view the Mortis arc as an intricate Force vision. It's the only way I can keep from hating it. Father, Son, and Daughter were merely representations. Best indication of this is that Son, although thoroughly diametrically opposed to his sister, did not hate her. In fact, he loved her, and mourned her death.

Read, boy. I said "fringe". Karm spells his order with an O.

I never said anyone had to like it, just that it was a good example.


I never said that you did say anything other than "fringe". I was just pointing out why it is not.

Light Sith would be Jedi.  Wasn't there a Sith Lord who tried blending light in with the Sith ways, in with the dark side, and it failed, miserably?

 Well after the last 24 hours, plus 39 miserable years on this planet, I pledge myself to the Dark Side! Its interesting that I came here and was drawn to learn more about the ways of The Sith rather than the equivalent thread on the jedi.
 Thank you Master Logos. I do not seek power, nor to rule. I just seek my own happiness before all others. I can't help other people be happy or at peace if I am not. Most human beings are mentally unstable at best. I seek my own personal balance first and foremost. I will always help people with less than I have when I can. But not at my own expense. I will be no ones pupil but my own. I will serve nothing but what I feel because I understand my emotions and that they are real, and I know I am right.
This thread has been more than interesting, It has become life defining for me. Now i just wish I could make my damned blue saber red!

Fallen Jedi Gar-Wi-Musan
AKA Lord Musan Grawlix 

 Just to be sure, I am fairly drunk right now. I have chronic nerve and joint pain I have been trying to deal with for the last 25 years, and training 3 hours a day with my new saber has me in so much pain (despite the incredible gains), I have not slept for three days. That is why I am drinking. If i change my mind about this later, well I'm an idiot. But I'm fairly certain this is the truth. If I haven't said otherwise 24 hours from now, It is what it is. Not so sure about pledging myself to the Dark Side, That might be too much. For now I pledge my self to myself.

Thanks for listening.

 Sorry about the triple post.

I join the discussion lately but it is a very interesting one ;)

To me, Siths (as a group who has his own civilisation, philosophy, arts ...) are very similar to the Michael Moorcock’s Melnibonéans. I do not know if Lucas and Moorcock know each other but there are a lot of similarity.

Moorcock describes his Melnbonéans as powerful knights and sorcerers who use their power for their pleasure and they enslave/corrupt other kingdoms ...

I would not be surprised if the Elric saga wasn't at least an influence on Lucas.

Yes ... and considering Elric himself, i saw a clear influence on the Darth Bane character ...

I just had a thought on this. Son and Daughter represent a parallel to the Freudian constructs of the Id (Son) and the Superego (Daughter). One represents raw emotion and desire, and looks only upon itself. The other represents control, and learned behaviors accepted as good by "civilized society". The individual Ego (Father) makes the conscious decision of how to regulate and balance each within themselves.

The death of Father represented Anakin's impending crisis of faith, and offered up a glimpse of the consequences of his choice. But it also showed the consequence of favoring one side over balance. By dogmatically favoring Daughter over Son, the Jedi sought the weapon that could end Son's influence. But by retrieving it, allowed Son access to the weapon that could free him of Father's ruling influence over both, and ultimately destroying everything that opposed him. In similar fashion, it is believed by some that Bane's reduction of the Sith to 2 tipped the balance of the Force so far to the "light" that the impending decimation of the Jedi was inevitable in order to properly bring balance to the Force.

I have maintained for ages that the balancing required the reduction of the Jedi, with their 10,000 + vs. 2 Sith (and probably a fairly equivalent number of non Sith dark side users as Jedi who escaped order 66 and the Purge).  Which is why I always felt that after RotJ, a rise from the dark side had to happen, to balance it back out.  The Force isn't light or dark, in and of itself, and balance in most cases is more of a pendulum, back and forth between points, as perpetual, equal balance would be stagnation, and when dealing with life, stagnation is death, or worse, oblivion.  Besides, in so many ways, how long would Sith be content with total victory, no one to fight?

Exactly why I believe that conquest is pointless. Even Darth Bane knew that power was simply a means to an end. That is why power is not the end of the Sith Code. What does one do after they have conquered the known universe?

Reforge it in their image?

Exactly why i made a parallel between Bane and Elric ...

Don't know Elric.

Great fantasy character and series by Moorcock. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elric_of_Melnibon%C3%A9 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elric_of_Melnibon%C3%A9)

If one day you have time to start a new book ... you should try ... Moorcock has a very interesting point of view about Law vs Chaos, Good vs Evil and Balance ... Also, the universe of Elric the Necromancer is very cool (IMO) : the most powerful guys that follow the path of the Chaos are the Melnibonean ... and their society is very close to my vision of the Sith Society ...



"In 2014, The Ruby Throne, the first volume of a new four-volume adaptation of Elric of Melniboné written by Julien Blondel and illustrated by Didier Poli, Jean Bastide, and Robin Recht, was published by Titan Comics. Stormbringer, the second volume was published in March 2015 by the same team and publisher. Moorcock states that this is his favorite comic adaptation of his Elric stories to date and praises the subtle changes to the original story, saying that he wishes he had made them himself.[21] The third volume, entitled 'The White Wolf', will be released in September 2017.[22]"


I have the 3 first of this collection ... very great :)

 Thank You Darth Logos. I have been avoiding the Star Wars books for years, afraid I would go to deep and they would change what was canon.
I just picked up DARTH PLAGUEIS because you recommended it. I think you also said stay away from anything that is not marked LEGENDS, So I also Picked up DAWN OF THE JEDI- INTO THE VOID. Thanks, I needed more addictions and things to spend money on! So, are the LEGENDS books the new canon or what the hell? And like I recently saw you say "YOU TAKE THAT BACK TFU IS CANON" couldn't agree more. What about K.O.T.O.R. ! AND !!? Any non Legends books worth picking up? Much appreciated Dark Lord. ;)

Legends is what they are now calling what was the Expanded Universe, and is no longer "canon" according to Lucasfilms/Disney.  Wookiepedia has a good article explaining it, here,

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Legends (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Legends)

Thank You Kind Sir.

There are (though I don't think I've read any yet) some good books that are not LEGENDS, however, there are quite a few of them that aren't great (or so I've heard).

There is no such thing as "too deep". There was only two things about Plagueis that I didn't like, but I won't get into them without spoilers. I haven't read any DOTJ yet. I've mainly been focused on stories with good Sith aspects for research purposes.

On the bright side, paperbacks are cheap. No, "Legends" is what the original canon Extended Universe (stories that weren't put on the big screen) have been relegated to. IMO, they were the superior stories because although some tried to be edgy, and some even achieved it, most of the narratives were held together with good characters and good plots instead of a bunch of hocus pocus woooooo crap.

As far as OCEU stories that I enjoyed, I cannot stress the Darth Bane trilogy enough. I was pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed Lost Tribe of the Sith. One of the prequel stories I also found to be immensely fun was Cloak of Deception. Like Darth Plagueis and the Bane trilogy, it expands on the depth of planning  the Sith took in overthrowing the Republic.

Considering what I've seen in movies and SW Rebels, I am thoroughly disenchanted by the prospect of reading anything of the Disney Canon. But you're welcome to find out for yourself if you enjoy them.

I'm not much of a duelist or spinner, but I dabble from time to time. I would classify my style as.......treacherous. ;)

HAHA!!! I DIG IT! Your an awesome Dark Lord! Points all the time but especially for that one.

Thanks, I try.

So is the term Sith Lord and the title Darth the same thing. I know Sidious was a Sith lord and also known as Darth Sidious. But for example, would Darth Maul or Darth Vader also be Sith Lords even though they were an apprentice to Sidious? Drop some knowledge on me.

From what I could tell Darth and Sith Lord were interchangeable.  But, then there is the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, this was the title granted to the most powerful in the order and after Lord bane instituted the Rule of Two it was given to the Master while the Apprentice was a Sith Lord.  Palpatine shirked this tradition when he became Emperor by granting the title of Dark Lord to Vader.

Sith Lord and Dark Lord of the Sith are interchangeable; that is what someone is. Darth, however is a title.

Darth (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth/Legends)

Wow, very good points here Darth Logos. I've been enjoying this thread a lot, thanks for sharing. And I agree.

Thanks. I have long held the opinion that the true nature of the Force has never really been explored.

WHICH...Is where I thought the new films were headed....

Whoops ;)

Agreed! Especially since in these new films, it seems like the force is a dying "idea", many think of it as not even real. Rey thinking Skywalker was a myth in the force awakens, then having to be convinced by Han when he explains that the jedi.. the force.. its all real. It seems like many people have dispelled the force, and made it sound as if it was all imaginary. I hope it is reiterated and expanded on in films to come. Just a thought...

I would very much like something to expand upon the idea of Sith magic. I feel we only got a small taste so far.

Oh....that shell is just horrible writing.

You're referring to what the Nightsisters practice?

As well as Darth Zannah. More so Zannah's version of it.

Well........The Nightsisters refer to it as Magik (I think that's how they spell it), but it is really just use of the Force in a ritualistic manner. Zannah's abilities fall under the realm of Sith Sorcery. Being able to tap into someone's greatest fears and manipulating their perception. It's not an ability that is simply learned. But I highly doubt that Disney will incorporate it since it only ever appeared in the OCEU.

Yea...I get they wanted to maybe make Luke a Legend...but they could have easily done that with him retired as the Grandmaster and a new generation of Jedi have to seek him out after their temple is attacked.

See thats a headcanon i hope they explore in ROS.

Ive had this thought for awhile since the idea of the Living Force has become so prevalent in canon lately what if the constant war and killing has made the force weaker by nature. If the force is in and made up by all living things it stands to reason the less living things the weaker the force is. My headcanon for awhile is the force doesnt give a crap about the Jedi or Sith, and " balance" just refers to "stop blowing up planets you ding dongs"

You are correct in assuming that the Force does not recognize light and dark....mostly. Life & death, light and dark, good and evil. The positive cannot exist without the negative. Death feeds life, only light creates shadows, and only evil can show why good is good. The Force ebbs and flows, but eventually balances out.

'Im all pretty aware of this - my main point was I've wondered for awhile (especially with the ANH line from Obi-Wan after Alderaan) if large losses of life not only affect the force but directly weaken it. If the force is an energy field made up of all living beings that it stands to reason that the loss of life is akin to cellular death. Sure naturally many cells in your body die every day but if a lot die all at once it becomes an issue. I almost wonder if the whole of the chosen one prophecy is referring to a being that will not "balance" the sides or eradicate one side over the other, but stop the warring between light/dark factions.

I think the mass loss of life is felt by Force sensetives, but doesn't necessarily diminish its potency. You have to think of the untold trillions, if not quadrillions of organisms in a galaxy whose life forces make up the Force. So when you compare that to a body, the loss of Alderaan is comparable to skinned knee. It's felt, but won't cripple. Remember in ROTS, Yoda felt the results of Order 66, and that was only tens of thousands, a paper cut at best.

However I misspoke. One thing that I do feel is balanced, in matters of Light and Dark sides, was ultimately the lynch pin in Darth Bane's Grand Plan. After fulfilling the prophecy of the Sith Ari, Darth Bane took his apprentice Zannah, and instituted the Rule of Two. This reorganized the Sith into the strict Master/Apprentice partnership that too many regard as "the way it's always been." <barf> It is however the way it was for 1,000 years, ultimately culminating in Order 66. It has been supposed that the staggering imbalance between the number of Jedi and the Sith, their strongest opposition, that aided the the Grand Plan. Since the Force couldn't spontaneously spawn Sith, it allowed a mass culling of Jedi to even out the playing field. Going off the visual of the movies, this resulted in two Jedi, Obi Wan and Yoda, to counter our boys in black.

With Luke as the wild card..so to speak

Just to clarify Im about to be referring strictly to current canon,

See I've never been quite so sure. Because sure losing Alderaan in the grand scheme of things might not have been devastating to the force as a whole it would have been noticeable. Think about it, theres been a slowly escalating war for thousands of years that everytime one side "wins" the other side comes back twice as strong and kills a whole lot of life in the process. For a loooooong time. When we have now the First Order coming out and wiping out entire star systems in one fell swoop, whats the next step? I really dont think the force is trying to "balance" by equivocating the sides of the war-in fact I dont believe Anakin is/was even the chosen one. I think the chosen one is going to end the war between light and dark. Stop the cycle in its tracks. No more continuing escalation of genocide. It's only a theory, but I like to think thats how it all works :)

I've heard a few people bandy around the theory that Anakin isn't really the Chosen one...but The Clone Wars verified that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One.

George has always said that Anakin is the Chosen One. Not Luke, not Rey. Yes, people can help him along the way, but ultimately it is Anakin that is the Chosen One. The Skywalker saga has always been about Anakin, and always will be.

Indeed.  I see It as Luke/Leia being the Force's tools for Anakin's salvation. 

Well I'm also a fan of TFU, so more than a handful of Jedi survived the Purge. But their presence was now closer to balance than it was previously.

<Puke> Even looking at the current flaming pile of dog crap they call canon, we know the FO is going to fall. Once that happens, a period of regrowth will follow in which life will replenish what was lost. As I said, ebb and flow. The thing with the Sith is that they almost always ensure conflict and destruction to later be countered by times of peace and growth.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTe-lpxgxZ-7wrSQgqRKJMZoNmdyxxcDFS7fwlQG-Zbjitr-UkYN2kfrlky1KWDIM2Ro0VAX92zfNCZzf2yJ6oMfAdv3AwBC7Oyobu9SDOP3JDhD30QJEOCAA&usqp=CAE)

He most certainly was the "chosen one". Yoda even said it: "A prophecy that misread may be." His choices led to the fulfillment of the Grand Plan and brought the Force closer to balance. Leave to the dogmatic Jedi to think balance is everything to one side. Doesn't work like that.

Which is why if little Miss Mary Rey Sue isn't a Skywalker even I'll join that riot.

NTM, <gags> Leia's son and Luke's daughter being the strongest and opposing Force wielders would "bring balance to the Force."

Well certainly wasn't trying to offend with an armchair theory. Im in the rare camp that I like the new stuff. to each their own I guess.

Armchair theory?

Also, I doubt you could offer better offence than the cesspool that is the current canon. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, c'est la vie. Some people enjoyed the Christmas special.

Okay, I like the current canon and all, but i dont partake in   H E R E S Y

Also, to clarify, I was being a touch literal. Theory was had while sitting in purple armchair, can confirm.

I'm still unclear on armchair theory.

Made theory while sitting in armchair = armchair theory.

Just making a literal twist. Mostly when people call something an armchair profession is to say its an amatuer pretending to be a pro, I was just appropriating for a joke.

Oh. Yeah, I wasn't offended by the theory. I simply countered it. There is a great example of the Force being affected by massive loss of life. In the book Revan, it is revealed that Emperor Vitiate's phenomenally OP strength in the Force came from a ritual he performed in his youth that allowed him to absorb the life force of every living organism, not just creatures, on his home world. The world was left completely dead; not even microbes survived. Sith Imperial records were purged of this information, and investigation of it was punishable by death. The result of this ritual actually left a void in the Force. It is described that while on this world, a Force wielder.....well, had nothing to wield. There was no life generating the Force in the sphere of the planet's influence.

Sorry, i hadnt meant to be defensive was just a long day. Theres also a good chunk of examples in KOTOR 2 with Kreia/Traya actively attempting to wound the force by exacerbating events such as malachor through the Exile. Theres more here to dive into, Im just throwing ideas around trying to find what sticks honestly.

As for canon, in TCW  weve seen more than enough proof to know were working on the Living Force theory (especially with Yoda's last arc, and the Father, Son, and Daughter). Ive just always felt the the theory of the chosen one has more to it - and it does strike me as odd as weve just now received more canonical info on it right before ep9. Perhaps theres reincarnation shenanigans going on but thats a shot in the dark if ive ever taken one.

I've just wanted for a long time the true nature of the dark side to be fleshed out. Sure we have our standard "evil" sith such as Vitiate, Sheev, etc, but I always found the more even tempered sith to be fascinating, the ones that dont necessarily draw on malicious passions to fight, but more wholesome ones. I reall want to see a full-on SITH LORD that fights for his love of life. That would be really interesting to watch I think. Ive seen a lot of discourse as to whether or not emotions like love would be a reliable or powerful enough emotion for them to draw on but its something that would be interesting to see.

I initially wanted to hate the Mortis arc, but couldn't. One inconsistency from the OC that I'm actually glad is gone (it had better be gone) is that the Mortis arc actually took place in the physical realm. Although it would be in line with Filioni habitually jumping sharks, there is one unspoken aspect that points that it was nothing more than a vision: Son never reappears. One would think that the "living" embodiment of the Dark Side would spread death and disaster without hesitation across the galaxy making a common foe for Republic, CIS, Jedi & Sith alike.

Working on it, but it'll never be canon because it doesn't follow the current bs narrative.

I felt very similarly with Mortis. Though I could never quite rectify them being pure manifestations of the forces' will since that would make them...well...Whills. Ive wondered if maybe they *believed* themselves to be manifestations of the force but in reality simply force-beings? Like they are made up of the force but dont quite *represent* it. Probably not but fun to think about.


I like the direction things are going in, but i do admit that i want to see more on this side of things. Maybe one of the new trilogies will go into it.

I viewed it as a representation. Basically, it was to warn Anakin that his indecision between love and duty would unleash the Dark Side onto the galaxy.

<grumbles> I highly doubt the current crop of writers is that creative.

From the limited info given about them, it seems as if they are Physical embodiments of the Force...but became that and were not born to it.  Ascended beings basically....kind of like Q. 

Hmm...well that would almost back that up even more. They dont represent the forces consciousness so much as embody its' power. Or i could be crazy, valid point; its in my name after all

Also Also, I do like the idea of it being a vision to warn Anakin but didnt his memory get wiped of the whole Vader vision stuff? (legit question, been ages since i last saw that arc)

Yes, All three of their memories were erased

Yes, this is closest to my understanding as well. They never claimed to be the literal "embodiment" of the Force, but rather they claimed to be Force Wielders. Basically beings that are so powerful in the Force that they have transcended (through the Force) that which most people could ever possibly do. Anakin being the exception. Also, part of their power came from completely allying themselves with one single aspect of the Force, which allowed them to become more powerful (again) than any other being.

Exactly.  Which at the time lead me to believe maybe The Chosen One is an ongoing prophecy.  Like how The One in the Matrix was cyclical.  The Anchorites were needed for the Balance and every time one of them was about to perish a new Chosen One would be born and drawn to Mortis.  When Anakin rejected the role of The Father and all three died...The Balance was thrown into disarray.  I was hoping Ep. 7,8,9 were going to be about the Balance being rebuilt...with Luke as the Father, Rey as the Daughter and Kylo as the Son.   Of course....I was wayyyy off.

Then what was the point? Crap, now I need to see it again. I thought they were still aware that something had taken place, and they still had the residual memories similar to those of dream. Feelings experienced in the dream continue to be felt despite not really remembering what happened. I've had those types of dreams. I remembered being euphorically happy, but that turned to sorrow when I realized it was a dream, but I couldn't remember what happened in the dream. (Not a great morning.) I viewed it like the residual was what Anakin was supposed to take away; to be careful when balancing his feelings and his choices. But like in Endgame, (NONSPOILER) if you know the future, how can you really make a choice?

But Father was not completely aligned yet controlled both masterfully. That was why he wanted Anakin to take his place. This is why I feel that the arc works best as an interpretive vision.

As the Architect described, the One was a statistical likelihood of an anomaly, not the fulfillment of prophecy. The One was someone that would spell certain doom for the established order if not kept in check. There is a biblical parallel to this, but I'm not sure if the rules would allow me to elaborate on it. But in a similar fashion, the machines offered the One the same choice: fulfill your duty to the greater good, or serve yourself and doom everyone.

HA! This I do remember. Son killed Daughter in the attempt to kill Father. He later killed Father, but ultimately escaped Mortis. This is why I felt it was interpretive. Anakin's inability to sacrifice what he loved ultimately allowed the Dark Side to be unleashed on the galaxy. His fear to lose Padme pushed him to align with his enemies, and destroy his true allies, ushering in an era of darkness. I know, not edgy enough for rating, but makes a whole lot more sense. ;)

The son escaped?  I don't remember him escaping

Oh yeah. That's why I said earlier that a malevolent entity such as that would not stay hidden and would eventually be a common enemy to ALL.

I was under the impression Anakin killed the son.....


www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApmSQhohzig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApmSQhohzig#)

Can't view the clip, and it's been a while since I've seen it, but I remember Son transforming and flying away from Mortis.

In the scene the Father hugs the Son and Anakin stabs the Son through the back killing the Father as well.   

Yes, but they have the ship fixed by then and they chase Son down. He does not end up escaping, and all three of the Force Wielders die, once again leaving the Force in a balanced state, though because they all died, it left it balanced in such a way that the rest of the galaxy would be affected by those deaths, and more death would continue. Specifically through the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War, and I would assume, the second Galactic Civil War (First Order vs. Resistance).


They're memories were not erased (other than Anakin's specifically about the Vader dream). If you remember at the very end of the episode when they get back out of Mortis, they talk to Rex and he says something along the lines of "we lost you there for a second, what happened?" (speaking about losing contact), to which Anakin replies with something like "You wouldn't believe us if we told you". At least that is how I remember it. Haven't watched it in a while, and I don't have access to it anymore.


Quite the opposite. Father was completely aligned to balance. Or Gray if you'd like. He chose neither, and yet he chose both. It could be said that Father was the only true Neutral, that is how he could control both, but at the same time was not as powerful as either. Confusing, as all good storytelling should be.

When did this happen?

This sounds like new season.

Vaguely remember. But that could have also been referring to just a radio silence. If all three were conked out, they would have been able to respond, and therefore would have raised red flags.

50/50 is not completely aligned. It is half aligned with both sides, thusly BALANCED. Also NO. Good story telling makes sense, that's why it's good.

You need to rewatch the Mortis Arc.


That's the thing though, he wasn't aligned 50/50. As to my "good storytelling" comment, it isn't confusing as in it doesn't make sense, it is confusing in that there is so much going on and so many different threads that are all weaving together in a complex story. I should have used 'complex' rather than 'confusing'. It makes sense once you have all the pieces, but before then, you can really only guess.

Well 100% neutral has no pull against 100% extreme on either side. At best all it can do is dilute.

Nope, it was in the Mortis Arc

I'll have to make an occasion to watch this weekend.

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It is impossible to use the Force for any kind of evil. Anyone who doesn't fully understand and accept this doesn't understand what the Force is. It is Love.

Even though I respectfully disagree, you bring up an interesting perspective  :)

Wu-Dan for example, that Jade Fox learned the "secrets" of to eventually kill Li Moo Bai in the movie Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was not her using the Force, but it looked similar. That Spiritual and Martial Art technique was manipulated by her with her witchcraft. Wu-Dan in it's pure form is also an art of Pure Love much like The Force is, just like anything that is done with Love. But when Wu-Dan teachings are twisted it is not an entirely Jedi Art as fallen practitioners can mislead others in ways that are not fully of pure Love-Spirit, much like in Tai-Chi there are ways one can kill an opponent using a form of Tai-Chi called Dim-Mak, translated to "Death Touch", but only as a last resort. But if such tactics aren't used morally, they can be infiltrated by demons and cause painful and murderous deaths in very rare and extreme cases, especially if the proponent of the martial art isn't taught it properly and has received a twisted teaching of violence and not self defence. But Dim-Mak is an honest Tai-Chi practice, and rarely kills, and even the brightest form of Tai-Chi combat can take the life of an opponent and send them to their next life, but that is not the purpose of fighting, the purpose of fighting is to preserve life, and Dim-Mak Spiritual Masters are taught to do that as well, and Dim-Mak is a safe and powerful form of Tai-Chi that was not created to kill, although one may be permitted when facing an extremely lethal or demonic opponent.


The Sith are Force practitioners, and whenever they use the Force they are Loving, if they are not Dark Jedi, and have a learning to do any level of negativity then that is not the Force. It is difficult for many people to understand what a Lightsaber is, how Darth Vader has never been the cause of physical pain or harm to anyone, and how their positions in the Empire helped save the Galaxy and stop and end a very dangerous conflict. Ren, as well, is not evil and he had a very difficult position in controlling the First Order, and those beams as well as Death Star rays never destroyed planets, they just used the Force to take them to other universes, times, and places. Lightsabers have the same capacity as well, as they are also powered by Kyber Crystals, which are powered by the Force, which is powered by Love, which is what you truly and Only are if you are a Jedi.

Intriguing premise, I admit, but as I said I do not believe such.  Neither do I look at the Force, the galaxy, the actions of those involved in those terms nor do I have such Olympian views.  And while I am not a Nominalist, I feel that the abstractions that you describe are incorrect.  Again: these are my opinions.

To each their own  :)

I'm going to have to disagree as well, although I do not believe that the Force has sides or that the Sith are inherently evil. If the Force has sides and will, then it is schizophrenic. And I challenge anyone to cite one tenet of the Sith Code that is "evil".

As to your argument of "love" this is easily countered: Sith Lightning. The traditional manifestation of lightning is derived from one's hatred; the exact opposite of love.

Good and evil are merely constructs of the mind. "Every villain is the hero in their own mind." - Tom Hiddleston. Evil is an adopted mentality, making it easier to demonize forces that oppose one's goals. To many Western civilizations, ISIS is evil. But have you ever stopped to think about how they view us? A corrupt and decadent nation of infidels. In the book Dune, the Harkonnen are characterized as such, and vicariously depicted as the "bad guys". Conversely, good is ascribed to forces that merely align with one's beliefs.

It's definitely a creative theory and I can even see some of the ideas behind it, but Im also going to have to respectfully disagree.

For me the Force has always been represented as a will of the natural world. It's a flow of energy betwixt and in all living things. It's something that can be used or misused. The evil is not inherent to the Force, but in the context of its' use. I think it can be used for evil, and people such as Palpatine serve as excellent examples, but can also be used for great good.

The atom held no evil, but was there evil in breaking it? I think there's some interesting arguments for the true nature of the force here. Good to hear from a creative theorycrafter though!

Torturing The Force does not give one any ability to wield its Energy. In fact, it gives none. Evil is the worst fault anyone can have. The Force is a beautiful rainbow of connection to all of existence, but like a rainbow, it causes no harm though containing many shades and colors. For the Darkness, look up into the night sky for what you need. The Dark Side is used to work the Dark Jedi throughout the Darkness to save the Light, and the Light to help shine one through the Darkness. Neither Side is meant to overtake the other, and imbalance in The Force comes from a lack of Love for it, which comes from evil from those who hate The Force, not from The Force itself.

Anyone can Truly and Fully Love, even the most fallen person, so anyone can use The Force and remember their entire training as an Aspirant in an instant and do away with any evil in their life. But to use the Force, one must Love. Anything less than Love is not The Force, and when one tries to imitate The Force as if it were evil then it is not The Force but fallen witchcraft or sorcery, evil technology or wrongdoing on how to hurt the Universe (But these are not the ways of The Sith, The Sith are secretive users of both Light and Dark aspects of The Force). Do not go with the "All One" theory on The Force when it comes to good and evil. That is a sad and false path that leads to a dead end. Respect The Force for what it truly is, True Love, which is the Only thing that is "All One." May The Force be with you, and may you be The Force.

Did the Sith have any rituals or philosophies that dealt with how to endure pain? I don’t follow the extended universe lore so I thought someone here might know.

Not a specific ritual, but the Sith believe pain can amplify their emotional response to a situation. This all comes back to the Sith code:

Peace is a lie there is only passion,
Through passion I gain strength
Through strength I gain power
Through power I gain victory
Through victory my chains are broken
The force will set me free

Basically they welcome pain as pain is a great emotional motivator, something that can produce passion, thereby granting strength. Its something they can draw from. In fact to dilute or lessen pain to ones' self would run contradictory with their beliefs, unless not in combat or so extreme they are incapable of fighting. This is why in episode VII, kylo repeatedly strikes himself on his fresh wound.

Pain is usually something to be dealt with in order to attain greater strength/power. As PS spoke of, your passion (desire for results) drives your ability to endure.

When Darth Bane was exposed to an orbalisk infestation, which ultimately resulted in 90% coverage of his body, he endured the pain of them in order to have a saber-proof suit of armor grafted to his flesh. Orbalisks feed on dark side energy, so they are drawn to its practitioners. Once latched on, they secrete a venom that simultaneously heals the host but inflames the nerves. The burning pain elicits emotional surges that manifest rises in dark side energy from the host, allowing the orbalisks to feed. This became counterproductive when he was endeavoring to create a holocron, and needed to remain calm in order to meditate. The orbalisks would increase his pain level until he had no choice but to unleash his anger, ultimately feeding them.

In another instance, the Sith Emperor, Darth Vitiate, granted his new Emperor's Wrath, Lord Scourge, to undergo a Sith ritual for eternal life. At the end of the ritual, the battle hardened Lord Scourge was nothing more than a quivering and whimpering fetal ball on the floor. He asked Vitiate when the unbearable pain would end. Vitiate replied that it never ends, you "simply" learn to ignore it.

What exactly goes into making a kyber crystal bleed? I could be wrong, but would Anakin's crystal not have bled after "Master Skywalker, there are too many of them! What are we going to do?" *Insert Beat Saber meme here*

(https://media.giphy.com/media/I4UhtUMzOrQSQ/giphy.gif)

To answer your question, in new canon crystals are alive within the force to an extent. To bleed a crystal is not to commit dark side acts yourself, but while in a trance transmit your memories and thoughts of pain, suffering, malice, and hate to the crystal itself. Your projecting your pain onto it.


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Which is why Kylo's saber is like it is.  He was bleeding his crystal and because of his unhinged explosive nature he overloaded the crystal and cracked it.  Which is why he had to rig the side ports to vent the excess energy.

I simultaneously love and hate this.

When  I can I will send you screen grabs of his Comic.  They show him doing this.... It also showed Luke kicking the Knights of Ren's asses without breaking a sweat.

Which then only begs the question: How the hell were the KoR EVER considered a threat?

Before the dark times, before Disney, in legends Luke was a very powerful Jedi.  In the Darth Cadeus series, Luke crushes Cadeus' chair out from under him by merely tapping his finger.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/Ll2fajzk9DgaY/giphy.gif)



And later on he Cut a Sith lord into 5 pieces in Zero G.  Then during another fight used One Sith as a club to smack down another one....

-1

But that's too violent. We can't teach kids that a hero can be badass....unless it's a girl that never has to try in order to gain ability.

Too Right. 

If I ever get MY SW story produced, it will require an R rating for violence.

Going back to the whole "bleeding crystal" thing, there was a comic that showed when Darth Vader bled the crystal that went into his lightsaber shortly after his fall to the Dark Side.  Won't spoil it, but it's an interesting story.

But then they go on to reveal that obsidian...the material that most of Vader's castle is made of...can be used to produce a blade. (A black crystal produces a red blade no less.) But we still have to show that the Sith are big mean bad guys....so crystal bleeding. Grrr.

And people wonder why I think the Disney canon is such garbage.

Well to be fair at the point they show this its mere days after EP III.  He hasn't gone back to Mustafar yet.

That was something I couldn't understand or maybe my brain just doesn't want to comprehend it.

I mean, why would you build a castle on the very place that you not only suffered a defeat at the hands of your mentor/brother, you were mutilated and horribly burned as well?  I mean, if it had been me, I wouldn't have wanted to be anywhere near that place.  Unless this is one of those Sith things of, "If I live or whatever it is I do in the very place where all this stuff happened to me, I will be constantly reminded of it and it will keep me angry and more Sithy."

Something about Sidious keeping him chained to his pain to strengthen him in the dark side. Blah blah blah. Big mean bad guys do mean things. Not like it'd be the first time KK's regime was painfully stereotypical.

I think it's exactly for the reason you stated x)
It's a reminder of his weakness, and the pain and rage and anger from that defeat are supposed to make him stronger =)

Point of fact...there is a whole Arc in the comics that explains why his castle is on Mustafar.
*Spoilers For the Comics *

Palpatine decided to give Vader a planet to rule of his own.  He offered him Naboo (really as a jab) but Vader chose Mustafar...as he associated it with his true turn to the Dark Side.  So Palpatine sent Imperial architects as well as a gift...the Mask of Darth Momin...a Sith from the Old Republic.  The Mask actually held the essence of the Sith Lord...who considered himself an artist, and he could take control of anyone who put the helmet on.  He revelead to Vader there actually was an ancient Sith Temple under the Volcano and he could build a structure that would allow them to pierce the veil of time.  So vader allowed Momin to control member of his party to design the temple...it took 7 attempts.  During the ritual Vader became distracted by an uprising my the Locals.....which he dealt with  in his usual fashion.  But it gave Momin time to send his spirit into his body from the past and come forward.  He and Vader fought with Vader winning the Duel....but not easily.
     Vader then sent his spirit into the void looking for Padme...he didn't find her.  So he destroyed the portal.
       

I read some article about the castle being some sort of attempt to bring Padme back, and honestly, I've heard worse.

Yep.  Like I've said before...The Vader comics were the shining star in the darkness from all this.

I could give them a read, but comics have never blown my cape. Too often, they are concerned with continued publication instead of telling a believable story. Lot of shark-jumps to generate oohs and ahhs and OMGs.

Well that is the name of the game in Comics.  Which is why they always have some kind of "Event" to kind of "Cleanse the Palate".  With the SW comics though they are a bit different since they have to fit into a particular time frame.  The Star Wars and Vader comics for instance began in 2015 to 2019 and covered the gap between ANH and ESB with Vader having a separate Arc taking place after EP III.  Before the Pandemic kind of destroyed the comic industry they had just begun the new stories taking place after ESB.  The Star Wars stories were hit or miss  (more miss) but the Vader comics never disappointed IMO.

One of the best topics to stumble upon, must be the will of the Force. Great choice to start a dedicated thread... May the Force Serve you well in your quest for a greater understanding of the Dark Side.

In regards to Light Vs Dark Side in terms of power, it's more a view of the application. What is power? Great references previously, Vitiate's devouring an entire planet = immortality, Starkiller Force pulling a Stardestroyer, Plagueis stopping or reversing death, the Thought Bomb killing vaporizing force sensitives and absorbing/trapping their essence for all time... that is pure power. Often unchecked, irresponsible, self-serving but power all the same. Best Light Side comparisons are battle meditation, impenetrable barriers, collectively foreseeing events. That's a huge disparity of power, Yoda doesn't pack it up and run from Sidious in Episode III because he has something else important to do, he knows he's outgunned and it's a tactical retreat having faith the Force will show a path eventually. Sith power has the distinct advantage but leads to madness and arrogance in that power. They destroy themselves more often than not or think losing is impossible and overlook the instrument(s) of their destruction. But power being in their favor is undeniable, since that is a main lure of the Dark Side.

This is explained by several Sith Lords in books, most memorable to me are both Plagueis and Bane. Basically, to sum it up compassion is viewed in Sith ideology as a weakness. Something to be trained out of you before achieving the title of Sith Lord. Burning away and discarding emotions that can breed weakness. Especially in death battles where a moments hesitation means death, mercy to an enemy or former ally can result in future danger, not being willing to sacrifice lives for power or a plan means failure; not just in that moment/plan but as a Sith who lacked the strength of conviction to do what was necessary to attain power.

Now this doesn't mean everything is off the table with "positive emotions" Plagueis "loves" his research, Bane shows some mercy if it serves an ultimate purpose, Vader is initially driven by love to do anything to save his wife. But, in theory they are supposed to use their emotions to their advantage, not be enslaved by them. Easier in theory than practice (much like the Jedi) but choosing to be selfless is paradoxical to the training and general goals of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Darth Maul could be argued to be closest to self sacrificing early on, but also likely because he was trained to be such, an imperfect tool. Perfect blunt instrument of his master's will and disposable, trained from birth (like Jedi) brainwashing him into accepting death at Sidious command. Also as mentioned Starkiller's heroic efforts I agree to be self serving, but he was also trained as a tool not a potential successor to the mantle of Dark Lord.

In regards to Bane's idea of the Rule of Two shackling the apprentice, yea it does to an extent. To ensure enough of a degree of submissiveness to be trained. In essence you are "freed" from your former life/self and reborn as a Sith. No longer bound by societal constraints/norms, mediocrity, or mundane levels of influence. Free to learn to bend the Dark Side to your will, and use whatever powers you can achieve without your master calling it evil/bad. And one day (if you can) when you surpass your master and kill them you fulfill the second to the last line "Through Victory, My Chains Are Broken". Thus shaping your destiny and that of the order. For better or worse in any case, but free. Which is one of the defining freedoms of the Sith over the Jedi, seeking to use and dominate the Force, not be simply guided by it and trusting it to just do whatever is the "will of the Force". Hence the destruction of the Jedi temple & 99.9% of their Order. That's like the Force slapping Yoda in the face for and with the advice he gave Anakin. Learn to accept loss and move on meditating about it, yea doubt he enjoyed savoring that particular kernel of wisdom in exile for the rest of his life...

This is addressed in both the Darth Plagueis and Revan books. Yellow eyes, withering/aging of the body, Darth Nihilus and Scion's appearances in KOTOR 2, certain powers of the Dark Side corrupt the user's body over time. Most prevalent in high levels of Sith Sorcery (possibly because the Sith race could resist this effect longer due to some natural evolved resistance to the degradation as it's original practitioners) but it's never fully explained. Many are simply maimed in combat, but most simply choose the pursuit of power as a priority over personal appearances. Especially when, as mentioned, they can learn to disguise their true appearance.

With regards to who was the most epic of Sith Lord's with a lightsaber I think people miss exactly how good Kas'im was! It's partially covered on pg 11 of this topic but not done true justice. Like Sidious, Kas'im is a master of all the Forms to the point he can teach them. He also, as stated is not as strongly oriented toward Force powered combat, he's called blademaster. His master taught him everything he knew, then was killed by him. Ultimately to test himself, to see if he really was that good; plus this is a Sith surrounded by war like infighting of older Sith culture. So he was kind of "the best of the best" of his day. On top of this, at his best Bane stood no chance of victory in lightsaber combat against him. Seeing Sidious death battle Kas'im with only relying on the Force to guide their blade combat, I doubt the Emperor would stand a chance unless you shave off some decades of age without diminishing skills he gained in that time. Note that Kas'im was rightly confident of defeating any foe wielding a single blade (even if horrifyingly powerful in the Force). He's got my bet for the Pure Duelist Award. If the Brotherhood of Darkness, in the middle of a war, says you're the best of the best (especially with the egos in that crowd) that's gotta mean something.

This is interesting because based off what I know I believed I had the answer, but I looked to verify just to be sure. I'm using a non professional understanding, rooted in science, and trying not to make it too dry/hard to understand. Force lightning is for our purposes fueled by hate/anger in this case. We also accept that these Sith Lords while trained to command/control such things could (and do) lose control due to outside influences. Not a simple "combat high" but orbalisks for Bane in his past. Though, in this instance I want to reference the pain trigger. Think of it this way I hate my opponent, using hate as fuel I call upon the Force to generate lightning, now the unexpected/unusual circumstance happens (it being deflected back to it's source somehow), this creates a closed loop so no more discharging of lightning it's getting fed back to the source in a closed loop. So if you're still following me here, I'm getting fried by my own lightning! Pain is produced adding to anger/hate "throwing more fuel on the fire" overriding conscious control and feeding subconsciously into the Dark Side of the Force. This in turn generates more lightning (like it or not) in addition to the electricity being channeled back into me. It's now a "positive" feedback loop, meaning it doesn't need me purposively pouring in fuel because it's out of control and feeding itself! This is triggering oscillation (getting locked in to the highest or lowest point of output) in this case extremely high frequency. Summing it up, the switch is thrown to the on position and the guy who did it is electrified in the process. But unlike a normal human he's also the generator to an extent not just a conduit. Kicking out his max power of lightning and trapped by it till something breaks the circuit. It's really a testament to the power of these Dark Lords of the Sith to have survived the lightning at all in these cases. Especially since their intent was to kill. Anyone who has experienced or witnessed someone accidentally coming into contact with a live wire above a certain voltage understands this. Like the taser example, you lock up and can't disconnect till the ride is over or someone breaks the circuit. This should essentially state why IMO no matter how great their degree of control, they literally couldn't help themselves in these situations. The Dark Side has it's dangers in pursuit/use of power. Often casually accepted as cost of doing business or ignored out of arrogance in one's ability. But combat throws the unexpected at us, and sometimes there is no immediate counter... you take the hit. Possibly part of why these moments are so iconic. If you have "absolute power" what else can destroy you but your own power? Not that that stops a Sith Lord from seeking it anyway. Guilty as charged.

Sadly to this point I'd have to argue that the Dark Side of the Force is inherently "Dark". I would say this for many reasons throughout EU lore and Darth Traya's insights in games as well. Heck, even the movies back it up to an extent. It's like the saying "the proof is in the pudding" meaning the result speaks for itself, in this case. The Dark Side can corrupt/control it's followers. Also corrupting/tainting parts of the environment, entire planets, or locally destroying the Force itself on occasion. Meaning something that is everywhere at once, and in all of us, when used in this manner by someone with a high enough level of mastery can actually purposefully (or even unintentionally) destroy the Force itself or everyone attached to it within a radius. Take that in for a moment, a seemingly infinite, eternal, and potentially conscious/sentient, nigh all powerful, energy that dictates all life and death, (but also moving everyone around like chess pieces or puppets) CAN be wounded or possibly killed on a large enough scale! The Dark Side can be used to accomplish this, basically wielded to kill itself in a way. If that isn't inherently dark I don't quite know what to call it. We term being self destructive as dark. Call it being in a "dark place" or so many other examples from psychology. That aside it drives its users to madness more often than not. Returning to the part about corruption it can turn a lake into poison. Though notably that was Jedi seeking to contain large scale Dark Side energy on a planet in a single location since they couldn't "cleanse" it. One of my favorite examples is Darth Zannah using Sith Sorcery to channel/manifest pure Dark Side energy. It instantly destroyed anything it came into contact with, that's pretty dang "dark". Vitiate knew how dark his mastery of the Dark Side was in attempting to hide it even from other Sith for all of time, many of which calling it a "crime" but still it is the Dark Side that allows this to even be possible. When Nihilus learns a similar technique he can't even control it eventually, subconsciously killing everything that gets close enough basically. Don't get me wrong, I love and try to embrace the Dark Side but the inherent risks can't all be contributed to user errors. Jedi and Grey Jedi/Sith must keep away from the deepest depths of the dark for a more profound reason. So I leave you with a quote from Nietzsche, "...if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

I remember hearing that was the original intent of the original trilogy. Before Disney threw the concept "out the window" to keep the war going in new creative directions. Vader's sacrifice and Luke's reinvented order being meant to de-escalate it by holding a more middle ground. I could be wrong, because I was young then and not as into reading the books after Episode VI. But I remember that being the warm fuzzy feeling/ moral to the story (before even Lucas got mesmerized by the money to be made perpetually) and note that instead of going forward chronologically he initially went backward. Seeming to imply less road in front of us, the end is nigh, so lets go back to the beginning and tell how this war came to be instead. In truth this is more so just my opinion, and not as based in what I've learned. And with new canon I could care less about being right on this point. It seems like a moot point now that is purely academic.

Darth Jar Jar was supposed to be the one to bring about true balance, but everyone shamed him into obscurity. So he didn't get the character development he deserved and faded into mediocrity.  ::)

New Information:
Intent on expanding learning here, and following the spirit of the generation of this topic, I offer this to the Sith Academy.
https://issuu.com/brandodimichele/docs/book_of_sith_-_secrets_from_the_dar
To the best of my knowledge (and as of this date/time) this is a link to the "collection" Book of Sith. While I plan on (and suggest) acquiring a physical copy of Star Wars-Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side by Daniel Wallace, I also understand these are trying times. Overcoming obstacles builds strength, thus if this provides a greater understanding of the Dark Side so be it. Indeed this preview should inspire a craving to add a copy to your personal archives all the more, since the internet can be a shifting sea of information. For websites, links, and servers all come and go, but a physical copy has to be relinquished or pried from one's hands. Until such a time, happy reading; I plan on burning through as much of it as I can in the mean time. May the Force serve you well.

Do you think that Namman Cha from the Star Wars Galaxies card game was a good Sith. They were a user of Jar'kai and I really admire them. I am new to the Sith for I started as a Gray Jedi hiding my powers and training on my own. This order showed me the light and it's history is legendary. I do not prefer double shoto blades. (Shoto blade: 24 inch blades A.K.A Initiate blades, 16 inch blades A.K.A mini blades) I like 32 inch blades. A one handed reverse grip user leads to disadvantages. We found I way to avoid those problems buy giving those Sith, Gray, or Jedi 2 reverse grip shoto lightsabers. I've read the holocrons message on Jar'Kai many times. I still don't understand. I have an Initiate v4 lightsaber. I hold it with my defense hand (right) and reverse it (check the holocron) I have learned and nearly mastered the reverse grip form. I just need guidance from a higher rank. For I'm a Sith Assassin (Inquisitor) Apprentice. Nothing of your likes.

From what I've read on Namman Cha, I like his style and skills. He appears to be a worthy Sith indeed, as good a role model as any to base your personal fighting style off of.

From my own experience and what I've read, I also wouldn't advise Jar'Kai with dual shotos. For the most part, the most commonly used style I've heard used (and tend to practice myself) is one shoto style blade and a more traditional "standard" length blade combination. Standard placed in your dominant hand and shoto in your off hand. There are many variations ofcourse based off user preference, and how you plan to fight. There is even a style of Jar'Kai created by one of the Masters using a double bladed lightsaber in one hand and a standard blade in the other (which I am attempting to learn/improve at because of how cool and versatile this combination is.)
I personally use much longer blades when dual wielding for several reasons, sacrificing some maneuverability/speed in preference of reach added from extra length is one of these reasons. Also simply the equipment I have on hand dictates what I'm practicing with, 31-32" actual exposed blade length on my "short" saber & 34" from emitter to tip on the other. I also own an Initiate v4 (the longer saber) and my shorter one is a Dark Apprentice v4 (with a twin and QR "quick release" Coupler to form a saberstaff). So obviously I on occasion use the 2 DA sabers in each hand, basically using two 32" blades for Jar'Kai practice as well. So I share your view, and appreciate a bit longer lightsaber in combat.

  When it comes down to mentorship I can only offer advice to you. I can tell you "how I do things, or in my opinion what works for me"; but since I do not have the rank of Master on this forum, when it comes down to actual definitive instruction I'm not permitted to do so here. Especially since I can't "see" what you're doing, to be able to offer corrective actions. Also although you chose to come to a great location for Sith instruction, this particular place is not ideal for lightsaber instruction. What I can do is give you guidance on where you may seek out the knowledge and technique you crave:
On the main page, scroll down to Way of the Saber and click on Saber Combat, somewhere within are the answers you seek and qualified combat Masters who may very likely be willing to guide you, answer questions, and point you toward instructional videos. It should be pretty easy to find Cang Snow, he is quite helpful and has a whole host of videos (although I am unsure if any are Jar'Kai) so it may be a good starting point/point of contact.

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=23125.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=23125.0)  Is a post by Darth Cephalus on Non-Combat saber spinning, with a Jar'Kai section that may at least be helpful for building
                                                                                 flexibility and getting your arms used to some of the movements/comfortable switching between normal and reverse grip.
https://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber (https://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber)  Was posted by Racona Nova, suggesting TPLA's videos. I just looked quickly and they had a "coordinating two lightsabers at once, introductory Jar'Kai" video posted there.
https://www.youtube.com/user/venturous1v/featured (https://www.youtube.com/user/venturous1v/featured) Is the link to the youtube page of Master Venturous, one of the listed Resident Masters on Saber Combat. His page had 6-8 videos dedicated to using dual lightsabers as well.

These are some links I've provided you for ease of access and to start you off. Although I highly suggest scrolling through the many pages of the Saber Combat section to further your learning, you never know who/what you might find digging there. I find it a worthwhile endeavor, much as Darth Bane chose to expand upon his own instruction with older hidden lessons. I applaud your efforts to become the best duelist you can be, and your dedication to training and learning is what will provide results. Keep working at it, and do so in a way that avoids unnecessary injuries to yourself or others... Being careful helps avoid delays in training, or potentially damaging your lightsabers.

ALSO I suggest joining or starting a Topic within the Saber Combat section for further discussions along this line... Since this place is dedicated to all Sith studies, not solely lightsaber forms. I do eagerly await your further development, and the results of your training. It would be great if you feel comfortable posting videos within a topic you create, then others may be able to help advise you more specifically. As long as we all continue to train, the Sith are eternal. So may the Force serve you well in your quest to master lightsaber combat.

The truth behind the Jedi:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUrWyPJqeSk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUrWyPJqeSk#)


And the best description of why humans tend towards Sith ideology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZfwW3EcIDo# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZfwW3EcIDo#)

Love me some Star Wars Theory.

That's technically Super Carlin Bros, not Star Wars Theory. Personally I find their Harry Potter stuff better than their Star Wars.

Even Sith don’t kill.

Sith means Healer in all languages.

I Love You.

Tell that to Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin...

.....Qui-Gon Jin, Assaj Ventress, Savage Opress, The Younglings...

And all the others

No it doesn't. In English, it at best traces to an archaic meaning as "since."

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sith (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/sith)

Neither does it mean this in french

From my understanding, for reference, Count Dooku would be considered a Dark Jedi bc he left the order but he never had yellow eyes which indicate he wasnt a full pledged sith, and I think I'm right when I say he wasnt a Sith nor Jedi, but merely a Dark Jedi. Hope I'm right, correct me if I'm not.
Sincere Most, DC

I agree. Afaik, he's a dark jedi, he uses dark side powers such as force lightning but does not have sith eyes.
Still... He refered to sidious as his Master.

I don't buy that.

He was a Jedi. He went bad.  He joined Team Sith, directly working for Darth Sidious. He recruited is own apprentice (twice!).

He's as Sithy as can be. Calling him a Dark Jedi is like trying to make up words when there's literally a word for it already.

WE NEED A TIE BREAKER. Its either he is a sith and not a Dark Jedi, or its that he isnt a Sith and is a Dark Jedi. I personally believe that he is a Dark Jedi, and not trying to talk trash, but if you truly vote for neutrality, then you should have a white blade, bc that means you are neither a Sith nor Jedi, just saying.
Sincere Most, DC

you seem to have mistaken my profile pic and my quote and my position here as all being related.

The pic is because I made a cool steampunked pic with my first saber
the quote is because I want a zero for my force points

My position here is because of the material presented in the movies and Clone Wars cartoon.

Jedi is both a club and a mindset. Ahsoka got kicked out.  Dooku quit. They are not Jedi in the club sense of the word.

Ahsoka appears to still act as we imagine a Jedi to be. Dooku acts like a Sith Lord. Dooku knowingly serves a Sith Lord. He does not act like a Jedi.

Now perhaps if Dooku had left the order and truly worked for himself, still doing Jedi-like things but let's say darker, you'd have a case.

But the canon says he's a Sith. His actions and employer says he's a Sith. He is literally Palpatine's apprentice as a replacement for Maul. Not just some guy working for Palpy.

It's all here on the wookiepedia:
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Dooku

It's on you to provide evidence that he is NOT a Sith for him to be a Dark Jedi.  Maybe call up Dave Filoni.

I agree.  Dooku was Sith.  But he never gave fully into hate because it would give him Sith Eyes and he had to keep up his appearance in the Separatist Senate.

Ok, so I just had my molar tooth pulled, so I need to relax, but how bout this. As I looked up Dooku, he was labeled as a Sith, BUT (so this doesnt escalate) he can also be considered a Dark Jedi. So you and yourself, Mr. Steampunk Man, can agree on something.
Sincere Most, DC

Not all Sith show their Sith eyes all the time. Senator Palpatine would have a real difficult rubbing elbows with Jedi during his terms if his eyes betrayed him. Darth Zannah was actually able to mask her dark side aura and walked right into the temple to use the library. They welcomed her as a fellow Jedi, so the eyes weren't apparent. Even Ventress, though not full Sith, was no less in the Dark Side, and her eyes never changed, even in the heat of battle. Tyrannus was measured and calm. We never actually see him give himself over to the Darkside (which would be unbelievably epic) as we did with Vader and notable others. In a similar way, Sidious didn't show his eyes until after having his lightning turned on him.

Dark Jedi are a completely different animal. For the most part, they still operate like a Jedi, only corrupt. Their abilities are still relatively similar. But abilities like lightning, sorcery, essence drain, and the like, require far more depth within the Dark Side.

I think the line is also blurred because a lot of the old EU used "dark jedi" and "Sith" almost interchangeably. Especially in earlier sources. Even the latter ones didn't actually concern themselves with the difference.

I'm going to refute this. In the Darth Bane trilogy this distinction is made 2-fold. In Path of Destruction, Bane felt that Lord Kahn's Brotherhood of Darkness was little more than a dark Jedi Order, and unworthy to call themselves Sith, after what he had researched in the archives (which no one studied) about what ancient Sith were capable of achieving. The Sith use to live up the idea of "a living nightmare." He resurrected the Darth title as he believed the BoD was afraid of it and what it meant to earn it. In Dynasty of Evil, Zannah attempted to recruit a dark Jedi to become her apprentice. If I remember correctly, he didn't have the stomach for Sith-ing.

Let us not forget that Dooku has the title of DARTH…Not something handed out like PEZ! This must be earned

Well.....it depends on your objective. Maul was given the title Darth, even he was little more than a disciple, much like Ventress {however Darth Ventress has a beautiful ring to it}, and not an actual apprentice. Those that have read, or at least know the story of Darth Plagueis know that during the events of TPM, Sidious was still the apprentice. But when the master chooses to remain completely hidden, you lie, so that your underlings can't go over your head to the real boss. So, to cement the ruse, Sidious named Maul 'Darth' and sold the lie to the Trade Federation (at least the Neimoidians) that he was the master.

This is also important since taking an apprentice is the "gauntlet throw" that signals the apprentice's intent to take the mantel of master. Zannah took her time taking an apprentice, because she wanted to make sure she had tapped everything she could from Bane. Tyrannus wanted galactic reform. He felt a greater connection as an ally, so he had no intent on ascending to master......yet. It was also probable that since he was older (80) than Sidious (63), he would not have made it long enough to train an apprentice if he ascended. And therefore contented himself to remain an obedient apprentice as long as his political goals were achieved.