Fencing (and Makashi) concepts

[Master Nero Attoru]

Thanks for the input VorNach!  I have been continually interested to see these overlapping concepts between fencing and longsword (it makes sense too, considering the longsword essentially gave way to the rapier, which eventually progressed to modern fencing).

One comment on the "closed door" concept you correctly pointed out - these are the regular parries, but it's important to keep in mind that there are various circular parries as well.  For instance, many times in foil you see a parry 4 and a circle 6 (essentially making a circle starting in 6 line and ending back there) used for the same purpose, guarding that high line.  The main technical difference between the two is that one closes out another line, whereas another provides circular motion to deflect an attack.  The former is naturally better to defend against a cutting motion, whereas the latter is mainly suited for a thrust.

Love it man. I have to get that video off my phone so you can throw a link up!

Definitely!  FYI forum members - he's referring to a couple videos we took that we figured could be useful, so we'll throw them up when we get a chance.

Great job Nero! I love the comparisons and info! Definitely be sharing this with others.-Kashi

Thanks Kashi, I'm glad it helped.  Please feel free to bring up any topics you may have questions or ideas about.

[Master VorNach]

Thanks for the input VorNach!  I have been continually interested to see these overlapping concepts between fencing and longsword (it makes sense too, considering the longsword essentially gave way to the rapier, which eventually progressed to modern fencing).

Physical design changes over time modify the application of the weapon but at the most fundamental level it's a metal rod, often sharp edged, with a point designed to exsanguinate another person. It's still fascinating to see the incredible overlap of technique with different weapons from different times and places as well as where they part ways and develop application particular to their design.

For instance, many times in foil you see a parry 4 and a circle 6 (essentially making a circle starting in 6 line and ending back there) used for the same purpose, guarding that high line.  The main technical difference between the two is that one closes out another line, whereas another provides circular motion to deflect an attack.  The former is naturally better to defend against a cutting motion, whereas the latter is mainly suited for a thrust.

Counter lines with circles and circles with lines.

Great topic Master Nero.

[Master VorNach]

We've talked an awful lot about blade movement and position in relation to the body but there has been a paucity of information on footwork, some yes, but not very much.
Master Nonymous had presented some excellent footwork information in his tutorial series. I imagine this thread will at some point discuss it, as it's such an integral part of fencing training. I'll have some footwork advice in my Djem So thread in the upcoming weeks as well.

To try and get the ball rolling a bit I wanted to consider some of the historic source of modern fencing we've been talking about here. So, to get a little more "old school", I found this very nice article on "La Destreza" or the Spanish Circle.
The Spanish Circle was the foundation for the Spanish style of rapier combat for over 200 years. They really had their act together.

http://www.puckandmary.com/blog_puck/2009/08/spanish-fencing-notation-part-2-footwork-and-the-circle/

[Master Nero Attoru]

We've talked an awful lot about blade movement and position in relation to the body but there has been a paucity of information on footwork, some yes, but not very much.
Master Nonymous had presented some excellent footwork information in his tutorial series. I imagine this thread will at some point discuss it, as it's such an integral part of fencing training. I'll have some footwork advice in my Djem So thread in the upcoming weeks as well.

To try and get the ball rolling a bit I wanted to consider some of the historic source of modern fencing we've been talking about here. So, to get a little more "old school", I found this very nice article on "La Destreza" or the Spanish Circle.
The Spanish Circle was the foundation for the Spanish style of rapier combat for over 200 years. They really had their act together.

http://www.puckandmary.com/blog_puck/2009/08/spanish-fencing-notation-part-2-footwork-and-the-circle/

Nice find!  I do indeed plan on including a good deal of footwork information in here, I just haven't gotten around to taking any vids.  If I don't get to take any soon (real life tends to get in the way) I will see if I can find any good sources online I can post here, perhaps some instructional videos courtesy of Youtube.

Long story short, VorNach is correct - footwork is ESSENTIAL, especially in this Form.  It provides the ability to maneuver in an agile fashion, and allows one to manipulate the distance to one's opponent.  I can't really stress enough how useful this is for Makashi, being as it allows one to create opportunities to outwit the opponent.

Not to mention it's a powerful defensive tool - if you get too close and find yourself overwhelmed, a fast retreat makes the difference between getting hit and emerging unscathed.

[BenPass]

Nice find!  I do indeed plan on including a good deal of footwork information in here, I just haven't gotten around to taking any vids.  If I don't get to take any soon (real life tends to get in the way) I will see if I can find any good sources online I can post here, perhaps some instructional videos courtesy of Youtube.

Long story short, VorNach is correct - footwork is ESSENTIAL, especially in this Form.  It provides the ability to maneuver in an agile fashion, and allows one to manipulate the distance to one's opponent.  I can't really stress enough how useful this is for Makashi, being as it allows one to create opportunities to outwit the opponent.

Not to mention it's a powerful defensive tool - if you get too close and find yourself overwhelmed, a fast retreat makes the difference between getting hit and emerging unscathed.

That's the main thing I've been working on in my sparring. My fiancee love using my Arbiter, which has lots of reach, and I've been using the Dark Prophecy (much shorter saber). Anyway, footwork is vital. I still have a lot of work to do, but I'm getting the hang of it. It may not be pretty, but for the most part, I'm not getting hit lol. BTW neither of us have any experience so we're learning as we go.

[Master Nero Attoru]

It's good to hear you're coming along Ben!  Just let me know if you have any questions or anything, I'm trying to pass on my knowledge as best I can (though it isn't always easy via forum).

Just to help out in that regard, here is a little video I made to try and demonstrate some of the Makashi parries.  I kinda break it down to five main zones, to keep it nice and simple.  Hope it helps!

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3G-5Ad4vo" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3G-5Ad4vo</a>

Also, keep in mind this was made at a very early hour of the morning...

Artorius made one as well, he put it in the Soresu thread here if you're interested:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg104043#msg104043

[Master Artorius Vidnyl]

Video came out really nicely, again loving the lighting.

And by early hour I believe it was around 3am... Yea. We were tired, and I was cranky. But still it came out great!

PS - thanks for promoting the vids!

[Master Rel]

Lots of fun there.

I have a thought...I had a karate instructor, early on in life, who stressed the importance of not leaving a open of flailing limb out away from the body...by stressed I mean to say would smack with a bamboo cane if you left it out...that sort of thing leaves a mark, both on your body and in your head.

And before anyone gets riled up I know this was an informal get together, late at night, going through the motions...which we all appreciate...I was more thinking of this thought in general not this video or person specific.

In fencing which drives the person in video thus...there is a need for the opposite arm to be up and out...counter balance, helps with lateral facing, and more finer details that my limited sport fencing brain does not contain...but for the ideal of weightless or near weightless sabers this same may not be needed...but we simulate the same in LED sabering.

My thought goes back to the way to prevent the wayward limb hanging out and getting smacked...hold it tight to the body in ready to strike mode or grasp the gi/belt to keep it close (which also acts as a counter balance).

You see this sort of thing sometimes in spinning videos, where the saberist holds their hand/arm close to center mass...it is normal instinct to protect the limb from knuckle cracking and such with the spinning action...this protective logic is where I am going with the thought.

The idea of an off hand saber makes more and more sense with this in mind.

For me personally I would most likely go straight to a shorter version like a Florentine style or Parisian main-gauche or Japanese ko-wakizashi (short blade) which I am more familiar with.

The point being that the slowed down version in the video above caught my eye from experience before, instantly drawing my eye the whole time...protect your hand and maybe an offhand short sword would be useful.

The main reason for the offhand sword in my experience has been to deal with the unexpected loss of footing or trip allowing the opponent to close the distance maintained with the main sword arm or as result of a technique that allowed the opponent to do the same...for whatever the other guy is in your face about to deliver the coup de grâce.

An off hand short blade can move in a different way than a full size blade, quicker, shorter arc, circle of response, etc.

Just a thought.

Great video by the way, showing a concept and application that makes sense and is clearly repeatable by anyone...a sign that the person demonstrating has a grasp of instruction.

[BenPass]

It's good to hear you're coming along Ben!  Just let me know if you have any questions or anything, I'm trying to pass on my knowledge as best I can (though it isn't always easy via forum).

Just to help out in that regard, here is a little video I made to try and demonstrate some of the Makashi parries.  I kinda break it down to five main zones, to keep it nice and simple.  Hope it helps!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3G-5Ad4vo#ws

Also, keep in mind this was made at a very early hour of the morning...

Artorius made one as well, he put it in the Soresu thread here if you're interested:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6061.msg104043#msg104043

I just saw this, and that looks really helpful. I'll have to try that next time I'm out!

[KashiAtaru]

Thanks for the input VorNach!  I have been continually interested to see these overlapping concepts between fencing and longsword (it makes sense too, considering the longsword essentially gave way to the rapier, which eventually progressed to modern fencing).

One comment on the "closed door" concept you correctly pointed out - these are the regular parries, but it's important to keep in mind that there are various circular parries as well.  For instance, many times in foil you see a parry 4 and a circle 6 (essentially making a circle starting in 6 line and ending back there) used for the same purpose, guarding that high line.  The main technical difference between the two is that one closes out another line, whereas another provides circular motion to deflect an attack.  The former is naturally better to defend against a cutting motion, whereas the latter is mainly suited for a thrust.

Definitely!  FYI forum members - he's referring to a couple videos we took that we figured could be useful, so we'll throw them up when we get a chance.

Thanks Kashi, I'm glad it helped.  Please feel free to bring up any topics you may have questions or ideas about.

Thanks I will, if I have any. Actually I do. Any elaborations on parry interceptions in lightsaber combat?

[Master Nero Attoru]

Thanks I will, if I have any. Actually I do. Any elaborations on parry interceptions in lightsaber combat?

I probably could elaborate on that, but I'm not 100% on what you mean there (still getting my fencing terminology converted over).  If you could give me a bit of an explanation on it I'd be happy to comment!

@Relmeob - thanks for the input!  The thing about the hand is, part of the reason it's even held back there is to keep it out of the way.  I can definitely see where you're coming from in martial arts, but for the more linear style of combat fencing employs it makes a certain amount of sense to hold the hand back there.  The idea with fencing (and consequently my brand of Makashi) is that you're using footwork to remain at a measured distance from your opponent, retreating when necessary.  It's basically taking the strengths of distance you get out of the linear fencing style and applying it to a three dimensional combat scenario... which is something I'm trying to work on for sure!  I am liking the idea of an off hand weapon though, and in fact I've seriously considered implementing a sort of "rapier and dagger" variant of Jar'Kai.  I'll let you know if I make any headway on that front.

[Master Lucien Kane]

I probably could elaborate on that, but I'm not 100% on what you mean there (still getting my fencing terminology converted over).  If you could give me a bit of an explanation on it I'd be happy to comment!

@Relmeob - thanks for the input!  The thing about the hand is, part of the reason it's even held back there is to keep it out of the way.  I can definitely see where you're coming from in martial arts, but for the more linear style of combat fencing employs it makes a certain amount of sense to hold the hand back there.  The idea with fencing (and consequently my brand of Makashi) is that you're using footwork to remain at a measured distance from your opponent, retreating when necessary.  It's basically taking the strengths of distance you get out of the linear fencing style and applying it to a three dimensional combat scenario... which is something I'm trying to work on for sure!  I am liking the idea of an off hand weapon though, and in fact I've seriously considered implementing a sort of "rapier and dagger" variant of Jar'Kai.  I'll let you know if I make any headway on that front.

There needs to be a Jar'Kai, and a double bladed variant for each form if you ask me... I really like the idea of a shoto being employed with Makashi though... Very practical.

[KashiAtaru]

I probably could elaborate on that, but I'm not 100% on what you mean there (still getting my fencing terminology converted over).  If you could give me a bit of an explanation on it I'd be happy to comment!

My coach has taught me interceptions for some time, he describes them as making a half parry such as parry four, then as the opponent disengages making a second opposite parry in this case parry six during a lunge to the chest/arm. Others are parries 4-8, 6-8, 6-8-6, 6-6-8, etc. I don't know if this describes them well enough, I wonder if I should make a video. Any way, Id love your input!-Kashi

[Master Nero Attoru]

My coach has taught me interceptions for some time, he describes them as making a half parry such as parry four, then as the opponent disengages making a second opposite parry in this case parry six during a lunge to the chest/arm. Others are parries 4-8, 6-8, 6-8-6, 6-6-8, etc. I don't know if this describes them well enough, I wonder if I should make a video. Any way, Id love your input!-Kashi

Ah, thanks for that... I think I'm getting what you're laying down here.  You're referring to a double parry in anticipation of a feint disengage by the enemy.  I've done many such things in private lessons, so I'll address my thoughts on that right now.

Something I've learned over many private lessons is that the exercises taught aren't necessarily all specific techniques to use in situations, but rather an attempt to build muscle memory.  Anticipation of an attack isn't really a habit that you should get into, as it sets you up for missed and/or failed parries.  The double parries that you referred to as "interceptions" are more for burning the physical motion of a second parry into your mind... so that if you miss the first parry, you will automatically execute the second to keep yourself safe.  For example, I might practice a parry 4 to parry 6 "interception" so that if my opponent parries around my initial parry 4, I can instantly move back to 6 line without having to think about it.  The more of these automated responses you can set up, the more prepared you will be to react without having a thought process interfering... if that makes any sense.

Of course, you wouldn't be taught them if they didn't have merit!  I don't mean to discount these exercises at all, I just wanted to make it clear that they don't act so much as a technique as they do a training exercise.  In a real fencing bout you want to parry as late as humanly possible, in order to prevent your opponent from using deception against you.  If you get in the habit of parrying earlier and relying on a second parry, you run the risk of unintentionally slaving yourself to your opponent's feints, which makes you incredibly predictable.

Again, if that makes no sense feel free to let me know... I realize sometimes I start blabbing and not everyone is on the same page, so I'd be happy to re-explain anything.

Oh, and thanks for the suggestion... I'll be sure to add it to any instructional exercise I put together!

[KashiAtaru]

Ah, thanks for that... I think I'm getting what you're laying down here.  You're referring to a double parry in anticipation of a feint disengage by the enemy.  I've done many such things in private lessons, so I'll address my thoughts on that right now.

Something I've learned over many private lessons is that the exercises taught aren't necessarily all specific techniques to use in situations, but rather an attempt to build muscle memory.  Anticipation of an attack isn't really a habit that you should get into, as it sets you up for missed and/or failed parries.  The double parries that you referred to as "interceptions" are more for burning the physical motion of a second parry into your mind... so that if you miss the first parry, you will automatically execute the second to keep yourself safe.  For example, I might practice a parry 4 to parry 6 "interception" so that if my opponent parries around my initial parry 4, I can instantly move back to 6 line without having to think about it.  The more of these automated responses you can set up, the more prepared you will be to react without having a thought process interfering... if that makes any sense.

Of course, you wouldn't be taught them if they didn't have merit!  I don't mean to discount these exercises at all, I just wanted to make it clear that they don't act so much as a technique as they do a training exercise.  In a real fencing bout you want to parry as late as humanly possible, in order to prevent your opponent from using deception against you.  If you get in the habit of parrying earlier and relying on a second parry, you run the risk of unintentionally slaving yourself to your opponent's feints, which makes you incredibly predictable.

Again, if that makes no sense feel free to let me know... I realize sometimes I start blabbing and not everyone is on the same page, so I'd be happy to re-explain anything.

Oh, and thanks for the suggestion... I'll be sure to add it to any instructional exercise I put together!

Thanks Nero! I like your thoughts on this subject. It answers a couple good questions!-Kashi