Saber Forum

So I Played The Beta Today...  and I Realized A Few Things...

First of All... I Did Everything I Was Doing With TOR Today While Mistress Rayne Was Preparing For Christmas, and Doing Many Things That I Should Have Been Involved With... But Wasn't Because I Was To Busy Messing With TOR...

Once I Realized This... It Broke My Heart  :'( and I Realized That My Priorities Were Massively Out of Place...

Not Only Was This The Case, But My Computer Could Barely Keep Up With The Graphics and Performance of The Game... (I Spent At Least 30 Mins Alone Just Messing With The Graphical Settings, In An Attempt To Make The Game Play Correctly...)

I Had To Turn The Graphics Down To The BARE MINIMUM!!! (Turning Many Aspects Off Completely...) and Even At The Bare Minimum... I Couldn't Get The Game To Play As It Was Intended, and The Graphics Had Been Reduced To What Looked Like Worse Than XBOX (Original) Graphics...

(This Is One of The Reasons Why I Have Never Been Big Into (and Sometimes Utterly Hated) PC Gaming... Something I Always Loved About Console Gaming, Is Simply That If The Game Said XBOX On It, or Play Station... That (Guess What ;) lol) It Would Play Perfectly Fine On The System It Was Designed For...  This Has NEVER Been The Case With PC Gaming... You Always Have To Check Graphics Cards... Sound Cards... and A Multitude of Of Other Issues Before You Know For Sure If The Game Will Play On Your Computer... (The Only Way Around This Is To... Play On A MAC... Mac's Do Not Have These Same Issues... and In All Honesty, I Am Being Driven More To The "Mac Side of The Force" With Every Passing Day... (Lack of Viruses, Play of All Games With MAC On It (As Long As Your Computer Is New Enough))...

(Just So You Guys Know... I Have A Only 1 Year Old $1,000.00 HP Desktop, and Not Even That Could Keep Up With The Graphical Demands of The Game...)

In All... I Spent Around 3 to 4 Hours Fighting With The Game... I Was Angry... Disappointed... and I Had Been Ignoring The One Person That Means More Than Anything To Me In This World...

After Everything Was Said and Done, I Wondered... "Why Am I Doing This..." 

I Realized That To Truly Play This Game As I Desired, and Get What I Desired Out of It... I Would Have To Essentially Dedicate My Life To It... and This Is Something I Am Simply Not Willing To Do...

(I Now Fully Understand Why So Many Have Said That They Would Have Rather Seen KOTOR 3 Come Out Rather Than This (What Felt So Cheap In All Honesty...) MMORPG Version of KOTOR... and I Now Fully Share This Opinion...)

So In Short... I'm Sorry Swam... But I Will Most Likely Not Be Playing TOR At All (or Very Little Far In The Future)... I Love The Concept of This Game... But I Will Not Become One of These Pathetic Single Guys In Their Mom's Basement Playing WOW and Completely Ignoring The Outside World... (I'm Not Saying That You Guys Are This... I Am Simply Saying That This Is What I Would Have To Become... To Play This Game The Way I Would Want To Play It...

I Have Had Many Issues On The Job Front In The Past Several Months, and I MUST FIND AND MAINTAIN A STABLE JOB To Provide For My Family, and Preserve The Core of What Allows Me To Keep Breathing In This Screwed Up World... My Family :)  My Lora and My Two Little Pups :)!!! 

If I Played This Game The Way I Want To Play It.... I Would End Up Failing Utterly Regarding A Job, and I Would End Up Loosing My Family and All I Hold Dear, All For A ******* Video Game... I WILL NOT ALLOW THIS TO TRANSPIRE!!!!!

So, I Hope You Guys Enjoy The Game... But I Will Most Likely Cancel My Reserve For It... and Ignore It's Launch... Sorry...

(This Was NOT INTENDED As A "Rage Post"... I Am Merely Attempting To Express My Feelings Regarding TOR At The Current Time... and To Let The Community Know That I Do Not Plan On Pursuing This Game Any Further...)

This Is Goodbye To The Game That I Waited For So Long For... and Loved With Such Intensity For So Long Until Recently...

::nods solemnly::

the main reason why I don't play PC games is because of the things you mentioned,  it seems silly to me to have to  upgrade PC components every couple years to keep up.  It isn't really practical to me. 

Sorry to hear  that wraith. I feel the same way though. i would much rather see a kotor3. I go to school every day, playsoccer after school everyday and travel for soccer games/tournaments every weekend. If i really wanted to play this game i would probably end up doing bad and school, and my soccer wouldget worse. That is something i would not want because soccer is my life.

Yeah, I'm gonna make my own post about this game in my own topic.....

Sorry to hear this Wraith. I know how much you wanted to play this game.

"(I Now Fully Understand Why So Many Have Said That They Would Have Rather Seen KOTOR 3 Come Out Rather Than This (What Felt So Cheap In All Honesty...) MMORPG Version of KOTOR... and I Now Fully Share This Opinion...)"


If they had made KOTOR 3 it would have been what the new Revan novel is about.

IT would have been totally awesome.

Yes it Would!!! thats my favorite book, and kotor's are my favorite games

Makes me sad but I understand. I have to say though the difference between playing by yourself and with a group in this game is amazing. Quests fly by, story is far more amusing when competing for responses. Its really great.
There does have to be that balance between job social life and gaming though and for many its hard or impossible to do. Me I have a full time job, and a circle of friends i get together with fairly regularly. I have been badly burned by a few women in the past and am not looking for a relationship right now so I have the time to play the game.
Wraith I wish you well, wish we could have ventured into the galaxy and fought the republic together.

I completely agree with you, Wraith. I desperately wished for a KOTOR 3, and when they announced that TOR was going to be a MMORPG I was most disappointed. I am disappointed to hear that the game will be that much harder to play, due to the system requirements. Sigh... KOTOR 2, the Sith Lords, pretty much ruined video games for me. Nothing else has been as cool to me as that game. ;D Amazing story, cool options, LIGHTSABERS, Force powers, Light or Dark Side decisions, man- that game had it all.

in a way this game is kotor 3-11. each characters story line alone is over twice the length of kotor.

SWTOR is a new game, that being said it will have the latest graphics and software available. More so than WOW . I play WoW about 2 hrs each evening during the week after I get the kids to bed . I will be playing SWTOR during that time once it releases . On this or any major MMOG you have to make time for it, and not let it interfere with your life. You can enjoy it in moderation. But it is not hard for the game to overcome you so you have to be a bit careful. If your afraid it will interfere with your life don't get it. If you have a PC you can always upgrade your graphics card. SWTOR plays fine on my desktop, but on my wife's I had to lower all the settings. You also have to take in account this weekends test is a server stress test. They are maxing out the population to see how many servers they will need at release and this will make your game latent and a bit choppy as well . When I played the Beta 2 weekends ago they only had half the servers they had this weekend.i hate to hear you won't be playing the game , but you have my respect for having your priorities strait! Wife,kids,family,and job first!!

As much as I wanted to meet up with you in-game Wraith, I'm glad to hear you've made the mature decision to put the important things first.  Like you said, priorities.  I'm also frustrated with PC gaming, considering that I too need to buy a new laptop to support this game (granted mine is over 5 years old...) so I feel your pain there.

Let us know if you ever decide to join up again... we'll all welcome you back with open arms, even if you are a Sith ;)

These have always been the reasons why I have never liked playing computer games, but figured I would give this one a chance.  Maybe they will have time to fix the issues.  I know I will not upgrade my computer since it is just 3 months old.

I know you can't undue what you did, but you can now turn your attention to those that really matter;  Mistress Rayne, your babys (puppies), and the rest of your family members.  Go get that personalized photo christmas card ;D

Turns out I won't even be able to beta test.  I've run into so many problems just trying to get everything installed and now I come to find I need a little more disk space so I have to reallocate my hard drive.  Honestly I've lost my interest in this game without even playing.  I pre-ordered and frankly I'm ready to sell that too and wait until they come out with the Mac client.  Too bad i already redeemed my code.

I'll give it one more chance this weekend.

I say patience...... Just wait for things to get ironed out. Everything gets better with time, and I'm pretty sure this game will. Im going to wait a few months before I start playing.

As for what you are doing Wraith, you have a lot more self control than most men, and I applaud you for that. Feel great about your decision  ;).

I Wanted To Thank Everyone For Their Compassion and Understanding :)

Not To Get All Sappy... But I Really Love You Guys ;)!!!  I Have Loved This Community Ever Since It Was Established, and You Guys Have Become Like A Second Family and A Second Home For Me :)!!!

and I Am Truly Sorry To Swam and All The Others That I Have Disappointed With This Decision  :-\... I Promise That I Would Not Be Making This Decision If It Were Not Absolutely Critical...

Also, I Am Not Saying That I Will Never Play This Game... But Some Things Are Going To Have To Happen To Greatly Reduce The Stress and Frustration In Attempting To Play It... (It Come Out On XBOX 360, PS3, or I Get A Mac...) 

(Also, I Know The Chances of This Game Coming Out On PS3 or XBOX 360 Are Virtually 0%... But I Did Want To Say That If It Would Come Out On Those Platforms... I Might Reconsider My Decision To Some Slight Degree...)

(I Recently Played DC Universe Online On The PS3, and Though It Did Have It's Issues... It Was Fun To Play... and Because It Wasn't Like Pulling Teeth To Play It, I Was Able To Pick It Up For A Couple of Hours, and Put It Down Just As Quickly... Hopefully TOR Will Broaden It's Horizons In The Future...)

(Also... If They Do Not Fix The Problems With The Graphical Demands To Play The Game... I Promise You All, That In This Down Economy... THE GAME WILL FAIL... I Don't Say This Out of Anger, or Disappointment, I Say This Purely Out of The Factual Knowledge That PEOPLE Simply DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY TO PURCHASE THE PEAK PERFORMANCE PC THAT THIS GAME IS DEMANDING...  Our Country Is Falling Apart  :-\... People Are Worried About Feeding Their Families... Not Buying An Alienware To Play The Newest and Hottest PC Game...)

Societies always rise and fall, have pitfalls and peaks, but there are two things that can never be taken from anyone without considerable effort:  family and education.  If you are persistent enough, they cannot take your lightsaber as well.  Take care of yourself and you will that these things are true. 

To think I just ordered a laptop to play this game too... oh well.  It works ok on my brother's Dell XPS, it's pretty new (he got it in the summer for college).  Had to tweak some settings with graphics, but otherwise it's not bad.  We'll see how it goes.

Hmm, so much for their designing a game that "you didn't need to have a new computer to play on".

my computer cost me 800 about 3 years ago and I can run all settings on high with no issues.

...and so it shall be. Jammo and Dreaming will throw it down in the yard with our various sabers instead of playing TOR...

Forgive Me Swam, But I Have To Ask...

Did You Put Your Computer Together Yourself... (Choosing Custom Parts Personally, and Have Someone Put It Together For You)...

(This Is Commonly Done By Those Who Know What They Are Doing... I Know Many People Who Have Gone To Fry's Electronics and Had This Done...)

(Problem With Me Is... I Have No Idea What Parts I Need, and How They Would Go Together...)

I Have Herd That This Is A Way You Can Put A $2,000 to $3,000 Dollar Computer For Far Far Cheaper...

If This Is Not The Case, Please Forgive Me...  What Brand Did You Buy That Has Served You So Well...

I've Got A HP  :-\... It Plays KOTOR I Perfectly... Played Jedi Outcast Perfectly... and Jedi Academy... But For Whatever Reason... TOR Doesn't Agree With My Computer...

I got mine from new egg. Basically its a custom built. I cant put them together eiter so I bought all the parts from them using a template they had and they assembled it. If you want a good new pc on the cheap new egg is the way to go.

I'm Going To Join The Fringe... and Begin To Hope Against Hope That TOR Might Someday Come To The Playstation 3... or The XBOX 360...

I Know This Might Take Years...  But What If...

http://www.asggaming.com/2010/09/star-wars-old-republic-on-consoleswhy.html (http://www.asggaming.com/2010/09/star-wars-old-republic-on-consoleswhy.html)

As I Have Stated Previously... I Am Nearly Absolutely Turned Off By PC Gaming... However I Am A Proud Owner of A Xbox 360 and A PS3...

To Me It Would Make A Lot of Since To Bring The Game To The PS3... The System Already Has The Ability To Use A Mouse and Keyboard... and Is The Most Powerful System On The Market When It Comes To Graphics...

I Would Be Elated If They Did This... But I Worry That This Might Never Happen... I Would Probably Do Better Just Picking Up A Mac...

But Well... Just Check Out The Prices On Those Things and Feel My Frustration...

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac/select (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/imac/select)

I Just Payed Of My Computer, and I Simply Don't Have The Money To Spend On This...

.........

Dear Bioware... If You Ever Read This, PLEASE BRING SWTOR TO THE PS3 or XBOX 360!!!!!  It Would Make The Whole Process About 1,000,000 Times Easier!!!!! For Many Many Star Wars Fans That Don't Have The Money or Patience To Deal With The MANY MANY PC Issues...

This would be amazing!!! I would never stop playing if it came to the 360!!! it would be so much easier.
I will be making my computer soon for gaming. My dad is good at that stuff ;D I want to at least try this game out. I doubt i will like it though. I never like mmo's

Wow, sad to see people disliking the game. I've been playing all weekend and I gotta say it's the most fun I've had with any MMORPG. Steady FPS rates averaging around 120, and surprisingly good graphics (running everything on the highest settings), and no lag at all.. A couple of bugs here and there, but still very enjoyable. I think it's a blast and I'll definitely be playing it for real later on.

Nevertheless, sad to see people experiencing problems with the game. :/

I spent a considerable time playing this weekend and I rather enjoy the game. My graphics are not at the max but I was able to turn them up fairly high sometimes. When there are too many people on it seems I have to turn then down to minimum to keep up.

Anyway, I know what you mean about the time commitment to MMOs. My wife and I finally unhooked ourselves completely from WoW earlier this year, and I dread getting involved in another MMO... But it's Star Wars! Lol.

This time I will be a lot more laid back in my playtime. I do not need to max level a month into the game so I can raid with everyone. I will go at my own pace, enjoying the game; or else I will quit playing. Life and family are too important to spend all my time in the game.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on it.

Oh wait, one more thing. This is beta weekend, since you cannot play anytime other than this weekend you will want to play more than you would normally. So don't get too discouraged that you spent a lot of time in the game this weekend. Next month playing an hour a day will be possible, so you will likely naturally limit game time.

I Don't Know If It's Just Me... But There's Something About Making Something Into An MMO That Makes It Feel So... Cheap... I Feel Like It Cheapens The Experience To Make Something Into An MMO...

I Would Much Rather Play A Straight Forward RPG... (Examples) KOTOR I and II, Mass Efect I and II, Fable I (Lost Chapters) II, and III))

It's Just My Opinion...

Exactly!!!!

Glad To Know It's Not Just Me ;)

this game is kotor 3 and 4,5,6,7,8,9,10, and 11. each single player story is over twice the length of a kotor. you can play the whole story line solo

Unfortunately, I don't see this coming to console anytime in the near future. When it comes to cross-platform development, development on all platforms that it will be released needs to start at the same time. Otherwise, there are far too many things that just don't translate cleanly between platforms to start development for a new platform late in the game. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it is improbable that they would begin a port to a new platform this  close to gold status.

I played WoW for about a year, and thank god my subscription ran out.  Looking back I really was kinda addicted over a stupid game because I got caught up in the story of my character.  And like it's been previously said you constantly have to be upgrading a PC you have DEDICATED to gaming to evenhave a decent looking game and little or no lag.

I love Star Wars, I love RPG's, and I love the freedom this game offers and the player interaction...but I really don't think I'll be able to do TOR

I really enjoyed TOR, I made it to level 19 as a Jedi Knight on the most recent beta weekend.

I spent about four hours at a time over the three days playing giving me a total of 12 hours of game play. In that I did everything I could to learn how to play (This is my first MMO) I got my lightsaber at level 7 (Which sucked because I couldn't kill anything because everything else was level 10) Then I was level 12 when I was trying to defeat a Sith lord who was level 16! So I went back and did a few more side quests and killed a lot more people. Eventually I destroyed him (Just barely) and Vola! At level 16 I had my own Starship! I started exploring the Galaxy. Went to Tatooine, nothing there. Went to Hoth, nothing there either. Did some space battles, they were very fun and gave you a lot of XP for very little effort.

I will be playing TOR in the future (bring on 15th of December!) and I have read horror stories of people becoming addicted to these games. Some people even dying from not eating, drinking, sleeping! I doubt it's something I'd lose my job, girlfriend, family and friends over though!

It's just a game and I'll be playing it to emerse myself in the Star Wars universe. it isn't a bad thing, like everything in life it needs balance and moderation. I hope to see some of you guys in the game!

Wraith, yes you way overpayed for a computer that is not nearly as capable. My current desktop cost me about $500 bucks and ran everything on medium easily. I realize that there are a lot of people that are not capable of creating their own computer which is why Best buy and HP and Dell do so well and overcharge for components and complete systems that really cost half if not less of what they charge for them. I am sorry that caused you to have such issues with TOR. It is a fantastic game and I encourage you to do a little reading, build your own tower, and give it another go.

Sorry to have to be the one to break this to you, but your thousand dollar system is most likely not even running a dedicated graphics card.  (This reminds me of when I played KOTOR I on my Celeron e-Machines PC with integrated graphics way back in the day.  The day I got my first graphics card I was absolutely BLOWN AWAY the game looked so much better!)  Even a sub-$100 card would allow you to play TOR at moderate settings and nice framerates, assuming the rest of your HP's specs are reasonable for that price range.  I replaced the core of my system around 2 years ago with midgrade components and I was able to maintain playable framerates with everything maxed out.

One thing you need to understand is that PC gamers build their own systems.  It's what we do.  You can't play anything decent on a reasonably-priced (i.e. non-XPS/Alienware) laptop; the purpose-built desktop PC is a staple of this entire genre.  Engineers, IT professionals, and computer-savvy gamers love the challenge and opportunity that upgrading and optimizing presents.  And the great thing about setting up your system for an MMO is that you'll more than likely be able to run the game with the same system for at least 4-5 years (or at least until you find a more demanding game that you want to play, whichever comes first).

Console gaming (or trying to game on a laptop) is completely different.  You can't just upgrade your components when the need arises, and console games have to be crippled in order to run on the same hardware for many years in between new console releases.  Sure, it makes grabbing a new game and just PLAYING a little easier, but you pay for that ease by giving up control over your hardware specs (and using the same hardware for several years after it is obsolete).

Ironically, the only thing 'cheapened' by making TOR an MMO (imo at least) is the REDUCED graphical capabilities and requirements of the game to make it playable on a wider range of systems.  Go ahead and compare it to something like Skyrim and you'll see what I mean.  Also, like mentioned earlier in the thread, the main story arc for each character can be played through entirely solo, for a total of 16 separate and unique storylines worth of solo play.  If that's not enough to make up for the MMO setting for you, then I'm not sure what to tell you.  Seems pretty sweet to me though =D

I can definitely relate to the wife and pups thing man; I'm in the same situation there.  What I've found over the years is that playing an MMO (as long as my play time is reasonably constrained) becomes my main social outlet.  Between work and home, us family guys don't get out much, and the subscription fee for an MMO is a small price to pay to be able to have a couple drinks with friends in my own home versus having to go to a pub and pay their exorbitant prices.

I know it's hard to give up on a game you've been looking forward to for so long, but it sounds like you're doing the right thing for your family at this time.  One suggestion I can make though is that you at least look into upgrading the video card on your system.  You may not be able to actually do it right now, but going through the motions of finding out what interface you have available, determining optimal specs for the game, cross-referencing those with a cost-benefit analysis of what is available, maybe contacting a friend who can walk you through the process at some point...it's a good exercise if nothing else, and who knows?  You might find yourself a new passion that could lead to a career path that you hadn't considered.

^^ Sorry for the looong post...and I haven't even been drinking!  Hopefully there's something worthwhile in there and not too many typos...anyways, good luck Darth Wraith; I hope you can find some good employment soon and get back into the game =D

That really was a long post!  Very informative though, thanks Methyl.

I Mean No Offense By This Next Statement:

However This Is A Great Example of The Difference Between A PC Gamer and The Rest of The World...

PC Gamers Are (Without Question) Far More Illuminated To The Different Components of The PC World (Compatibility, Requirements, and Abilities)... However, I Would Guess That You Have Probably Made The Process of Obtaining This Knowledge "Your All Consuming Thought In Your Off Time" (or At Least A Hard Core Hobby) In The Last 10 to 15 Years... and Where As I Have Played Games For Just As Long (Since The Days of The SNES (Very First System I Ever Had))... I Have Never Dedicated The Amount of Time To It, That Would Enable Me To Know What You Know About PC Gaming... Because In All Honesty, Knowing What Makes A PC Run (Insert Game Here) Has Never Meant That Much To Me... Not When I Can Simply Go Pick Up An XBOX 360 or PS3, and A Game That Has That Respective Label On It... and Put It In And Not Worry About A Thing... Your Way Just Seems Like To Much of A Enormous Pain In The Ass...

As I'm Sure Pretty Much Everyone Here Can Attest... My All Consuming Thought Throughout the Years Has Been... You Guessed!!! It Star Wars ;)... lol  This Is What Has Made Me A Walking Talking Star Wars Encyclopedia  :D lol...

Whenever I Have Found Myself With A Break Between Trying To Help My Family Deal With The Many Challenges of Having A Brother That Has Been Mentally and Physically Challenged His Entire Life...  or Dealing With The MANY MANY MANY Different Issues Dealing With The Members of The Opposite Sex... or Attempting To Find A Job That Will Provide For My Family, and Everyone That Relies On Me For Their Everything...

I Would Engross Myself Into Something Star Wars... Because When I Ignite A Lightsaber (or Do Anything Star Wars Related) It Takes Me Back To When I Was 5 Years Old... and I Didn't Know What It Was To Be Hurt... All I Knew Was That I Was Watching Star Wars... On A TINY Screen Beside My Father... Who Was Always Working, and Never Had Any Time For Me... (But I Digress...)

We All Choose Our Hobbies... Our Passions... Yours Is Obviously PC's and PC Gaming...

Mine Is Star Wars, and All Those Wonderful People That I Love In My Life (and Let Us Never Forget My Little Baby Pups :)!!! Maple and Coffee)...

So Very Long Story... Short:

I Have Far Better Things To Do With My Time, Than Figure Out What Graphics Card Does What, and With What RAM, and With What Hardrive... Etc... (WHO CARES...)

I Will Continue To Love My XBOX 360, and PS3 and Study The Glorious Vision That We All Call Star Wars ;)...

wrairh, im with you buddie. I am a die hard pc gamer but know jack diddily about computers. When I got my current machine I called a friend of mine said I have 800 bucks, build me the best pc you can. almost 4 years later the thing is still a beast. If i wanted to I could learn how to build a pc myself, and for my next one I may just for fun. But for most people I say find a friend who knows what they are doing, tell them your budget, and let them go!
I used to own an xbox 360 and a ps3 and a ps2. afer a year of the ps3 and the xbox gathering dust I sold them. Its a personal preference but I love the pc style of playing.

Im building a pc soon with my dad!!! It'll be used for gaming.

I think you're jumping to conclusions a little bit here Darth Wraith - PC gaming isn't this all-consuming topic that you make it out to be.  Like most anything, there is a basic threshold of knowledge that takes some time to accumulate, but after that point it really only takes a couple of hours to be up to speed on all the latest trends (say after a break of 6 months or so).  It's kind of like having a basis of Star Wars lore to refer to versus knowing all of the intricate details of the latest novel.  It is far from my only hobby, and my family certainly gets the majority of my attention outside of working hours.

I guess I just figured that science fiction fans would have an innate technical curiosity, and I might be able to talk you into leveraging this in order to gain a deeper understanding and enjoyment of PC gaming (while perhaps even benefiting your career aspirations)...my apologies if I have offended you.

I Completely Understand and Stand With You As Well My Brother Swam :)!!!

and Hey... If I Won The Lottery Tomorrow and Had All The Time In The World To Mess With It ;)!!! I Would Be Calling Your Friend lmao... and Getting Him To Put A Beast Together For Me As Well  ;D!!!

I Can Respect Any One's Point of View and Preferences As Long As They Are Expressed With Respect To Everyone Else's Preferences In The Process... (As You Very Well Did My Brother Swam :) and I Thank You For That :) )

@ To Methyl Druius:

You and I Obviously Have A Difference of Opinion... and This Is To Be Expected With A Forum of Hundreds of Souls Expressing Themselves...

However... I Can Since A Hint of Hostility In The Air Between Us, and In Respect For These Forums (My Second Home That I Love Dearly)

I Am Going To Request That We Drop This Specific Aspect of This Conversation... So As Not To (The Both of Us) Start A Flame War... In Which We Disgrace Our Hosts and Their Home...

If You Wish To Discuss This With Me Further Methyl... Feel Free To Send Me A PM and I Will Be Happy To Respond To You There...