Saber Forum

Is this real?
Just came across this article:
http://epicstream.com/news/Lucasfilm-Sues-Jedi-Club-and-Lightsaber-Academy-Over-Trademark-Infringement

If it is (and I didn't notice any hints that it shouldn't be), then this will be catastrophic to the whole fandom! I don't want to imagine what happens if the courts really agree with Lucasfilm/Disney....

Better start stockpiling now, before the whole thing gets shut down.  ;)

It should be interesting to see how the details work out, whether or not this is a hoax, etc. I'd be afraid if I was one of the other guys with a certain Sith lord's name in my business name.   ;)

I think the size of the businesses and fandom will cause this to not get so big. I think they're going after one particular group for a specific set of reasons. I'm not too worried.

I didn't realize that LucasArts has also trademarked the phrase "May the 4th be will be with you.^tm"

I think it's the official wording they used, not so much that it was a saber training class. Like Ultrasabers never uses the term Lightsabers. Don't use Jedi or Sith. All the other companies don't use the names by their true Lucas names. It's the wording

When I first found out about all these stunt sabers, I thought it would be against copyrights. However, they don't seem to be trying to make anything like this officially. If there had been official duel worthy replicas, I'd have bought them. I've got a couple ForceFX, but it didn't satisfy, as I can't duel without fear of likely breaking it. I'm glad someone has stepped in to fill the gap. With prices as they are among custom sabers, no one seems to be making these really mainstream. And the official copyrighted sources with Hasbro and Master Replicas aren't trying to make what we want, so it's not really mainstream either. We remain the nerds with lightsaber 'toys' on the edge of mainstream with popularity that Disney wanted to exploit. A class in a big city accidently used common place words and couldn't figure out the jargon needed to skirt the rules. But Disney isn't teaching a class or making dueling sabers. What's the beef here?

And what about these people who are actually treating Jedi as a religion? Are they calling themselves Zhedi and using the flarss? The flarss will be within reach, usually.

These things are basically detailed flashlights with tubes. I'm not apologizing for all the times I swung a flashlight and hummed as a kid. That was each of our childhood idea. Where are my royalties from when they did that in their commercial last year?  Why don't I get rights to my own nostalgia?

Um, go to the main Ultra Sabers site home page.  At the top.  Where it says "THE COMBAT LIGHTSABER SPECIALISTS" (note that I put it in all caps because it's in all caps on the website, not because I'm yelling at Majobu).

Now, Ultra Sabers is also a supplier to Disney for sabers used at the Disney parks, so that might get them some leeway when it comes to what wording they can use and how close to the actual movie prop designs they get in their designs.  But, wisely, even though we can tell what saber they're based on, US never says what sabers their designs are based on.

So yes, wording use is key, but there are a lot of light saber clubs/groups out there.  I'm not sure how this is going to play out in the long term.

And talking of nostalgia, who's gonna take Lucasfilm to court for stealing the design of Ulysses31's glowing space sword and giving it to that rebel Bridger?

(Anyone remember that cartoon?)

I think this thing has more to do with the group supposedly claiming they'd train you like a Jedi or a Sith than using lightsabers or people dressing up in costumes. If that was the case, entire industries and half the GDP of China would be forced to shutdown.

As stated it is the wording.  There are clubs out there that don't use the terms Lightsaber or Jedi/Sith that operate without hassle.  From what I have read he was given a chance to avoid all this by simple rewording is adverts.  He decided to ignore that though.

Didn't recognize that, but true! Could have leeway if Disney approves of them. Makes sense.

AND DONT YOU EVER YELL AT ME VIV!!!!! 😁

The big issues seem to be the uses of the name Lightsaber Academy (with a little TM next to it) and their use of a logo that greatly resembles the Jedi Order emblem.  I don't see where they used the word Jedi on their site, but I only skimmed through it.

By comparison, other companies are not so brazen.  UltraSabers, for example, does not us the word Lightsaber in its official business name, nor do they have a logo that resembles anything LucasFilm owns.  They use the word Lightsaber on their website, but so do hundreds of sites.  Other companies, such as TPLA don't use Lightsaber in their name either.  TPLA stands for Terra Prime Light Armory.  Though, TPLA can also be used for Terra Prime Lightsaber Academy, which is on their website and is the name of their Facebook page.

Either way, this case is troublesome and is one anybody in the Lightsaber biz (in any form) should watch.  While many of US's hilts don't bear close enough resemblance to be actionable, there are a few that are really close.

Though, Disney/LucasFilm could issue a C&D for US to stop using the word Lightsaber, they can't make US stop selling combat sabers that are their own design.  Certainly, hilts like the Initiate, Apprentice, Aeon/Dominix, Sentinel, Standard Issue, Prophecy, Liberator and several others don't bear enough resemblance to any of the hilts used in Star Wars films for them to be able to halt US from making and selling them.  The Graflex, Chosen One and Archon all bear similarities to hilts that were made from found parts, so Lucas never had any copyright or trademark claim to those.  That's why it's perfectly legal to make dead on replicas of Anakin's, Vader's and Ovi-Wan's original trilogy hilts, they were made from parts that were readily available.  So, it's not like US could be totally shut down by a case like this.  They could simply change to calling them just sabers or laser swords.  Even light saber would be OK, because those are two common English words.

Lots of correct statements here.  I can't comment on the effect this is going to have on Ultrasabers, because I don't see the "behind the scenes" stuff they do to keep everything in order.  I'm sure they're smart enough to anticipate whether they will have to make any changes, and do what's necessary to continue production.  I'm not too worried about it!

In regards to the topic itself, again, not a point of concern yet.  This was an issue that culminated over years of events, and a couple Cease and Desist notices from Lucasfilm.  I do, however, recommend that any group avoid the use of copyrighted terms in their titles.  There are many ways to do this without having to resort to silly terms like "laser sword."  Terms like "knight", for instance, are not under their jurisdiction, and still can be made to indicate the association with the Jedi Order.  As the above quote indicates, TPLA actually stands for "Terra Prime Light Armory" - the potential for an issue like this was anticipated, and our use of "lightsaber academy" was dropped to prepare.  We still use it informally, of course, under fair use.

Our own Master Uilos is a longstanding member of the New York Jedi, so we're all hoping that they can avoid the backlash of this issue.  Until we know the results, let's just minimize speculation and judgments if possible.

Yes, this is real. We have many friends in NYJ and know the player in this personally. Unfortunately, it looks like LFLs hand was forced when he applied for a trademark for Lightsaber Academy. He also ripped off their logo fairly directly. I agree with Nero in this matter. Not yet the time for panic, but time for house keeping.

Thank you Master Nero Attoru and Darth Nonymous for these updates.  We wish everyone involved the best and most fair resolutions and outcomes.  MTFBWY   :)

If nothing else good comes of this, at least the fine line that separates "Allowable" from "infringing" will be more clearly delineated.
Assuming of course Lucasfilm dont decide to move said line in light of these events....

Indeed.  I'm sure Emory and his people know exactly what they're doing and where they stand legally.  After all, UltraSabers has been in business for over a decade.

My concern is that Disney (the new owner) will want every dollar they can get on their investment. They may be wanting to sue, acquire or replace every saber company that they can. The guy who owns this training group may end up working for Disney, if they offer him such a settlement that they own it, and he operates it. Someone in a suit made this decision. Not a fan. Not a reasonable owner like Lucas or his people. A suit that saw dollar signs filed some paperwork.

There's only so much even Disney can do.  They can take the guy to court over the use of the name and the logo and they will likely win.  The logo is an almost dead on copy.  Apple has won suits with less resemblance.  The court fees and penalties will probably force the guy to shut down.  Beyond that, it's hard to say what may happen.

Moral of the story: don't ignore C&D orders from major corporations.

I mean, they can do pretty much whatever they want, it just becomes a question of whether or not it's worth their time.  In most cases, they don't bother... because it really isn't.  Court costs and diverting resources to address these issues can get costly!  It's this case and a couple others, where there's potential for more trouble, that they step in (thus far).  Saber companies are pretty savvy about sidestepping such touchy areas.

Absolutely right. My next topic was going to be the court costs. Too pricy, and really; they aren't gonna drag every company through the mud. It's a novelty item, the supporters behind them would be outraged, and the companies have done a good job of making their products similar to, but not saying "Luke's saber" "Vader's saber". More like fancy sparring weapons, with lights

And court costs, fines, judgements, etc. aren't always recovered. A company can be ordered to pay $10 million, but if it doesn't have that and closes up shop, then whoever successfully sued them can't recover that entire judgement, which is why it's an issue of whether or not it's worth it the time and money.

I'm just waiting for one of these contractors to make fun of my weight. I'm not gonna go down quietly. This particular company sues everyone for feeble things. There's so much dirt on them, and the superintendent made a comment a few weeks ago that the ladder was gonna need to be reinforced soon. Huge company, trying to make everyone do things their way

I really think they are planning to take over and do something similar themselves. Disney will have an exclusive academy at Disney World or something for kids and adults. They'll finally start making 'dueling' sabers, but then Disney will get sued by people hurting themselves, and we'll have to hide our bootleg sabers in the underground dueling clubs. The mainstream folks don't know what I'm doing when they see my saber. There are issues that currently have not been addressed in the saber community of people who know they aren't buying from a conglomerate that can pay when we choose our own risks of injury. When less devoted people grab an official saber, they won't think about injury until they want Disney to pay.

I woder how busy the court rooms are nowadays... have you ever drunk Johnnie Worker Red Labial?

http://www.boredpanda.com/funny-brand-imitations-knock-offs-china/?page_numb=1

Also, keep in mind, this is Lucasfilm, NOT Disney. While LFL is now owned by them this is a situation that goes well before Disney's involvement. LFL is the plaintiff in this case, not Disney.

True, of course.  They could start cracking down on anybody making anything even resembling a lightsaber, which toy companies have been doing unlicensed since the '70s.  Though, like many UltraSabers designs, they avoid direct copies to fit into that area of "yeah, it's lightsaber-ish, but it's not your lightsaber design."  And, should Lucas Film start going that far, they too would start losing cases.  And, as you say, that's money out of their pockets.

Anybody remember in the late '90s when Paramount tried issuing C&D orders to every website using the Star Trek logo?  That was a mess.  Fortunately, they almost immediately rescinded those orders, as they realized just how many there were and how huge the scope was.  So, they decided it fell under Fair Use.  However, it is within the rights of an IP owner to ban all unlicensed use of their IP.  It's just that most let (harmless) stuff go.  The problem, again, with this guy in NY is that he tried not only using stuff they didn't want him using in his official business name, but that he also tried trademarking it, despite Lucas Film/Disney already owning trademarks.  That's taking it to a whole different level and sure isn't Fair Use.


Indeed, an important distinction.  Just because a company is a parent company of another doesn't mean they have direct control over the actions of the child company.

All good points, especially about the guy wanting to trademark his stuff. That could have been what triggered the suit, but I'd like to add one thing.

You can delegate authority, but you can't delegate responsibility. LA had the power and authority to do what it's doing, but Disney still holds all of the responsibility for anything that company does. This is why bosses get fired if something illegal happens, even if they have no knowledge or involvement.

If this does get out of hand and start to resemble the Star Trek fiasco you mentioned, Disney could end up with a big black eye at the end of this. And, since their stock has been on a bit of a roller coaster the last few years, and the SW franchise looking like a potential financial savior, they better keep a close eye on this and monitor how far it goes. If only to save face.

From what I've read, the application for the trademark was indeed the final straw.  It was a response to several C&D letters issued for various uses of trademarked content.

So we've all learned, when LFL issues you a C&D, don't try to trademark their terms in response ;)

Seems like common sense to me, but I guess you never know, right?  ::)

Another important lesson: It's their playground, we're all just playing in it.

I don't know. I think i stand a good chance of taking on a company with the financial resources to spend $4,000,000,000 on intellectual property.

*loud noise*

Huh? What? Oh, hi. I was in fantasy dreamland for a minute. What'd I miss?  ;)

This guy was either oblivious, or ignorant. If you're receiving cease and desist notices, why go and try to trademark.
It's like going after someone's wife, you keep getting told to go away, leave her alone, or else; and then proposing to the girl!

My only regret is that I was eating lunch when I read that.  Not the best time to start laughing, with the mouthful of food and all.

Lucas likely doesn't want to have to litigate, but trying to trademark the term "New York Jedi" forced their hand.

Disney and LucasFilm have always been very reasonable in our dealings with them. They asked us to change our original logo and we changed it to what you see today. They had no problem with our products, just that our logo looked too much like theirs. They didn't want to put us out of business, they just didn't want customers to confuse us for them. Very reasonable.

I am sure NYJ and Lucas will come to an agreement before this goes to trial. For every other saber class, I would highly suggest you stop selling "Lightsaber Classes" and/or "Jedi Training". Call them something else. And if you have either of those words in your business name, I suggest you change it.

Excellent advice, Ultra, and thanks for the clarification!  We're all glad that you guys have your ducks in a row.

Just as we thought, the wording. Thanks for the clear up.

Actually, the offending trademark application was for "Lightsaber Academy". The inclusion of the trademarked term "Lightsaber" and the completely ripped off logo are what LFL needed to respond to in order to keep their TM.