The 27 pushup Jedi challenge

[Master Lucien Kane]

As you can see, it is not a military thing. It is a guy thing.


And I totally get it. This is the single most common methodology of exercise out there. Give it all you got, no pain no gain. Maximize effort and you will get more effort when you aren't maximizing. I just have lots evidence and experience that this is a very inefficient and problematic way of approaching training.  I have ample evidence that links this type of methodology with increased incidences of injury, poor performance, and bad movement mechanics.

But, I also know all the evidence in the world doesn't sway anyone. But It think we have all had and have our plateaus. to overcome them, there are far better ways.

So, I wouldn't say this stuff is subjective as much as I would say it is personal. No human has the same issue, which is why I am against one size fits all programs (and they all are, don't let the adds fool you).

Much of what we "knew" 10 years ago is wrong now. Take volume loading: the act of starting out strength training by finding a weight the person can lift a certain amount of times (10-20) and increasing the weight or the reps when that becomes easy. Sounds good. Problem, it only works for a certain % of the population. others bodies do not respond in the same way. The effect is thousands of people working out and "feeling" they have had a good workout, when all they have done is exhaust themselves and slowly injure their joints and connective tissue.

As I said, this is my profession, so I have a bit of a highhanded stance with it. I also base it in science which gives it a certain confidence.

We can all do the training where we "leave it on the floor" when we are relatively young and strong, but as we get older (like myself) we simply can't do it without risking pretty big injuries. It horrifying how many 'fit' people get multiple back surges and knee replacements before the age of 60. Arthritis and other overuse injuries common in advanced age are starting to show up in young athletes in their prime. The US military did a huge thing (which one of my mentors was a part of) examining the high incidents of debilitating back pain in veterans: the conclusion after examining the Armies training methods? Overtraining; sit ups, crunches, just making them do stuff until they drop. It was all contributing to problems after their service. They were essentially injuring our forces BEFORE combat.

Since I am doing this mainly to get inactive people active, I want to make sure everyone is safe. And since the bog target is kids, I want to make sure this information is at least floating around. One perfect rep a is more valuable then all the crappy ones ever performed.

Yeah, I've experienced this first hand... Do you know what about the worst thing for your knees are? Umm running with weight... Do you know what the Marine Corps loves to do? Make their Marines run with weight. I've had to run 6 miles in 45 minutes with full gear and a pack weighing in at 80lbs... This wasn't the worst run I ever did.

I've seen people doing stupid things to get strong... a lot. A stupid exercise is stupid, an improperly executed exercise will either not give results, or injure the student. Running is great... Running while bearing a really heavy load isn't so great for your knees. Unfortunately tradition trumps common sense here and we continue to do it.

So don't get me wrong, training in a dumb fashion is not what I am suggesting here, and I'm quite against it to be honest. However a few pushups in your day are hardly bang your head against the wall type exercises.

[Darth Nonymous]

Yeah, I've experienced this first hand... Do you know what about the worst thing for your knees are? Umm running with weight... Do you know what the Marine Corps loves to do? Make their Marines run with weight. I've had to run 6 miles in 45 minutes with full gear and a pack weighing in at 80lbs... This wasn't the worst run I ever did.

I've seen people doing stupid things to get strong... a lot. A stupid exercise is stupid, an improperly executed exercise will either not give results, or injure the student. Running is great... Running while bearing a really heavy load isn't so great for your knees. Unfortunately tradition trumps common sense here and we continue to do it.

So don't get me wrong, training in a dumb fashion is not what I am suggesting here, and I'm quite against it to be honest. However a few pushups in your day are hardly bang your head against the wall type exercises.

Right, its not the push ups, I am a big proponent of the push-ups. Do as many in a day as you can, best whole body exercise there is. I think we were focusing on the dropping the weapon and then the general idea about making such things harder and harder.

And yes, I have had a lot of ex-marines as clients. The horror stories of what they put you guys through because they think it will make you tougher. Yikes. One told me about how his whole unit had to do sit ups with a log across their chest, he was a big guy and ended up baring most of the weight and screwed up his back something awful.

Unfortunately, they didn't listen to the experts they hired. For that, I do apologize to all of those in the armed forces for what they are doing to your body. I usually treat vets with this kind of stuff free because that's just cruel.

[Master Lucien Kane]

I came out stronger for it honestly. My knees are still in tact... I was as smart about things as I could be without being overly belligerent. I was often minorly belligerent lol.

Anyways, the point is, is there's smart training, and there's dumb training. We as instructors want to encourage smart training as much as possible.

I feel that if I do pushups for dropping my lightsaber, and other students like it and want to do it as well it isn't a big deal. As long as the student is healthy, and does their pushups properly, we should have no problem. The issue is when it becomes hazing... I.E. you do the pushups because you're nothing but a low down dirty padawan, while I sit her watching and laughing.

If I'm doing the pushups along with them, then it wouldn't be considered a punishment as much as it is an exercise.

Problem as usual, frequently a military problem, but as Master Nonymous said, more of a guy thing than anything is the age old controversy. Hazing vs. Training... Hazing is detrimental, destructive, and dangerous. Training builds character, strength, and unity. Anytime you start to see something detrimental destructive or dangerous, it's not training, it's hazing.

This is important to know because even some martial arts schools miss the mark here.

[Solinus]

I came out stronger for it honestly. My knees are still in tact... I was as smart about things as I could be without being overly belligerent. I was often minorly belligerent lol.

Just wait until you're my age Lucien. If I recall, you are still a good 10 years younger than me? I'm now 35. Because of all of the stupid stuff the Army did have me do for 13 years, there ARE days that my back is so messed up that I can't move. One time, about a year ago, I twisted awkwardly to move out of the way of my son who was running at me. I don't know what I did to my back, but I literally couldn't move for 3 days. It took weeks for me to get back to a normal state.

I feel it in my body. I'm still very active, and my body is strong, and I am lucky. But I do feel the effects of those runs, the forced 25 mile road marches, the heavy burdens. When I first joined the Army, I weighed only 124lbs. I was 5' 6" tall. They made me the AG (Assistant Gunner) for the M60 machine gun. Not only did I have my equipment to carry, but the extra spare barrel, extra ammo, and the tripod for the M60. We would weigh our gear. Mine ended up being 140lbs. I still feel it today.

I am exercising on my own. So learning how to do so properly is hard. I just kind of do what I was taught, hence the "leaving all I have on the gym floor".

[Master Lucien Kane]

Just wait until you're my age Lucien. If I recall, you are still a good 10 years younger than me? I'm now 35. Because of all of the stupid stuff the Army did have me do for 13 years, there ARE days that my back is so messed up that I can't move. One time, about a year ago, I twisted awkwardly to move out of the way of my son who was running at me. I don't know what I did to my back, but I literally couldn't move for 3 days. It took weeks for me to get back to a normal state.

I feel it in my body. I'm still very active, and my body is strong, and I am lucky. But I do feel the effects of those runs, the forced 25 mile road marches, the heavy burdens. When I first joined the Army, I weighed only 124lbs. I was 5' 6" tall. They made me the AG (Assistant Gunner) for the M60 machine gun. Not only did I have my equipment to carry, but the extra spare barrel, extra ammo, and the tripod for the M60. We would weigh our gear. Mine ended up being 140lbs. I still feel it today.

I am exercising on my own. So learning how to do so properly is hard. I just kind of do what I was taught, hence the "leaving all I have on the gym floor".

Dude I feel your pain, I was a Machine gunner as well. So 240B .50 cals, the MK 19 I've ran with or hiked with them all. I was smart about it though, since I knew it was incredibly bad for me, I started going to the chiropractor at an early age... It's definitely helped. Not to mention yoga, and other stretching based disciplines.

[Solinus]

Dude I feel your pain, I was a Machine gunner as well. So 240B .50 cals, the MK 19 I've ran with or hiked with them all. I was smart about it though, since I knew it was incredibly bad for me, I started going to the chiropractor at an early age... It's definitely helped. Not to mention yoga, and other stretching based disciplines.

Yeah, my company pays 100% for all chiropractic visits I need. I should probably take advantage of that, huh? That, and acupuncture.

[Master Rel]

My first tour I was an 0341...boom boom...M-252 81mm system at 91+lbs...then the ammo...and our regular stuff...fun times fun times...fortunately even at 46yrs old I have no back issues...after throwing and being thrown by other heavyweights around on Judo mats most of my adult life, I would think there would be issues but not yet (knock on wood)...

[Master Lucien Kane]

My first tour I was an 0341...boom boom...M-252 81mm system at 91+lbs...then the ammo...and our regular stuff...fun times fun times...fortunately even at 46yrs old I have no back issues...after throwing and being thrown by other heavyweights around on Judo mats most of my adult life, I would think there would be issues but not yet (knock on wood)...

Woo Woo!!! Man I love 41's.... You guys are awesome.

[Solinus]

Woo Woo!!! Man I love 41's.... You guys are awesome.

Guessing that's mortars right? We helped our mortar team hump their equipment for the 60mm.. that base plate is NO JOKE! In the Army, we call them 11C (Eleven Charlie's). The Infantry is broken down into the 11 series: Bravo for Infantryman (me), Charlie for Mortars, Mike for Mechanized, and X-Ray for "Needs of the Army".

I got to hang a round once.. for the 60s... man, that was a pretty amazing time..

"HANG IT!"

"FIRE!"

[Master Rel]

60's and 81's mortars were a highlight of fun for me to be sure...I did many a pushup for not meeting our drill times...how long it takes to run 25' set the base plate, insert the tube, drop the bipod, lock the sight...all in a set time...don't meet it and push up city.

While in Cuba I got to compete for super squad, we ended up winning East Coast 1st place, and during the live fire portion I used a 60mm to drop three shells on a school bus (target bus) at a thousand yards while crossing a mile in under 10 minutes...run 1/4mi drop a round, run another 1/4mi drop a round, run another 1/4mi drop a round, finish the run carrying the mortar and regular gear.

They were fun.

[Solinus]

I remember watching our mortar teams do competitions like this. I did NOT envy them.

I'm sorry.. this thread has become derailed! Partly my fault. Back on topic!

I am going to go on record as to say that for each time that I drop my saber, I will do 10 push ups. When I mean drop it, I mean, if I am careless and set it against the wall and it falls over, or something like that.

I need to see a personal trainer to come up with some sort of workout plan for me..

[Darth Nonymous]

I remember watching our mortar teams do competitions like this. I did NOT envy them.

I'm sorry.. this thread has become derailed! Partly my fault. Back on topic!

I am going to go on record as to say that for each time that I drop my saber, I will do 10 push ups. When I mean drop it, I mean, if I am careless and set it against the wall and it falls over, or something like that.

I need to see a personal trainer to come up with some sort of workout plan for me..

Let me see if any of my colleagues out your way are accepting people.

[Jammo]

Jammo was but a Stinger gunner. We didn't hike with them as often as grunts hauling around all that crazy gear, but when we did, it blew...