Saber Forum

Is Vaapad more about using Djem So with Ataru, Soresu, Makashi, and Shii Cho while maintaing minimal defense and giving a lot more attack? And if so, would Juyo use Shien mainly for the Form V aspect? Plus I heard it's a lot more hybrid and a part of all forms like Form VI Niman.

I also think that form VII alters the moves slightly to make it more effective and seamless. Is there anyone who practices these forms on the saber forums?

You can ask the resident Masters (for example Master Nero Attoru) from TPLA for an "official" statement, but here's my thought of Juyo/Vapaad:

Vapaad/Juyo as Form VII are relatively new compared to the "early" ages of the Jedi Order. Both are more likely outside the actual progression, as Juyo and Vapaad heavily rely on emotions, making them very dangerous. To enemies and the user itself, as it brings you to the edge of the Dark Side. That's why it's not officially taught by the Jedi Order and that's why it's outside the other six Forms and not really comparable to them.

Form VII is all about attack, but in a different way than Ataru and Djem So/Shien. IIRC, Form VII uses staccato-like attacks, always altering the directions so that the enemy can't work out a strategy how to break through the barrage, it's almost unpredictable. And every strike is fueled by emotions, especially the emotion that is described as "accepting and actually loving the fight". Since this relies on emotions and actively attacking the enemy, you can see why the Jedi are so eager not to teach it - it's actually against the Codex.

Correct me if I'm wrong :)

There's a great treatise on the seven forms written by one of the resident masters, and unfortunately the link to it doesn't work. I've messaged him and hopefully he will get back to me and get me a copy.


The answer to all the questions asked here is "No." There's so much wrong/misunderstood here that I'm not even quite sure where to begin...

But I'll start here: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/11/15/form-vii-juyo/
and here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Form_VII
and here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Form_VII/Legends

I think the basic misunderstanding here is how the forms work. While they are built on each form before them, they are unique and independent of each other. One form doesn't use the techniques of other forms, they have their own set of unique ones. I guess another way to put it is that, in learning a form, you're learning how to learn the next form. Fundamentals, basics in footwork, movement, mentality, etc. from one form are built on in learning the next one.

That's a pretty decent summation. The only thing I would add is that, while I normally refer to Master Nero as he's probably the most active TPLA member on the site, it is (or at least was) Master Artorius who was working on developing Form VII for TPLA. But contacting Master Nero would probably be better as he's here much more often.

The only Jedi authorized to teach Vaapad was Mace Windu, and he only taught it to one student, who, depending on which lore you're reading, didn't cope too well with it. There were other Jedi with knowledge of Form VII, such as Yoda and Cin Drallig. But, as Yoda said, "Six there were for generations of Jedi. The seventh, is not well-known. Powerful form it is. Deadliest of all. But dangerous it is, for its master as well as its opponent. Few have studied. One student alone, to mastery has risen."

In most martial arts systems their related forms are stepping stones to more advance techniques. Not all students go beyond the physical aspect of the art and there are those that embrace the mental aspects any more in this area would break forum rules. In my many years teaching i always looked for student who had a passion for the art i did not care about if they had a high physical skill if they had both that was a rare bonus  I always said " Give me a student with true passion over a passionless athlete any time "

So Juyo and Vaapad are virtually the same, Vaapad was just Windu's take on the form. So I should just learn Juyo if I really want to know the form? I did find a place to learn a created version of it.

http://thenewjedaiiorder.yolasite.com/resources/lightsaber%20training%20book.pdf (http://thenewjedaiiorder.yolasite.com/resources/lightsaber%20training%20book.pdf)

I'd like to know if it is precise enough to compare to the true form.

No, you need to learn Forms I - VI first. Trying to learn it without learning everything before it means that everything else can and will beat you.

If you try to take a shortcut up a mountain, you will fall off a cliff instead of making it to the top.



That...I....it.... there's so much there that's good entangled with so much there that would get you killed in very short order in a lightsaber/sword duel that I think it would take me months to separate it all.

And more than a few things that are flat out wrong.

Nethendol check your in box

Woohoo, Master Uilos came through!

Read this: https://www.terraprimelightarmory.com/terra-prime-lightsaber-academy/LightsaberAcademy/7-forms-of-lightsaber-combat-a-discourse (https://www.terraprimelightarmory.com/terra-prime-lightsaber-academy/LightsaberAcademy/7-forms-of-lightsaber-combat-a-discourse)

^ Definitely this! That's essential reading for anyone who wants to start with lightsaber combat. I'd say a masterpiece of writing :P

Oh, please. All that "forms" have sence only when discussing the lore of Star Wars Universe, they have absolutely zero sence if we speak about real combat. So if you want to do stage performace and look like some fictional characters you can absolutely read that "manuals" on the "forms of lightsaber combat" but if you want to spar and win tournaments you better froget about that fiction once and for all. Lear kenjutsu, Leightenauer or European military saber and fight.

We're not talking about real combat, we're talking about Star Wars lightsaber combat in our universe ;) And in that case, we have actual manifestations of the ideas behind any Form in RL. No one will strictly use one Form or another, it's always a mixture, but you can quickly figure out the "core" Form. But to do so (and counter it) you need to know the advantages and disadvantages of all seven Forms. And for this, Uilos' writing is good stuff for anyone who's interested in that material.

When I tell "real" I mean that you really want to hit your opponent with your weapon (for example, one from Ultrasabers) while he actively opposes you and tries to hit you as well. In this circumstances that "Forms" are absolute nonsence. if you'll try to use any of them against me in the tourrnament I would be absolutely happy because it will give me the easiest victory I can hope for.

Well, yeah...

...if you're doing stage fighting moves using the performance art styles of fighting shown in the movies and games.

But people don't do that. The "real" (as in real-world combat style) lightsaber forms take the lore and the philosophy/theme of each style and build a set of techniques, derived from real-world martial arts, based on those ideals. They are designed with functionality in mind and someone who trains in such methods can be realistically expected to fight well if they learn the form well, much like any other real-world style.

As for the original question though, there are two very distinct answers because of the dividing line I referenced above. Canon/lore-based lightsaber forms, and real-world practical renditions of lightsaber forms are by necessity quite distinct from one another. I don't know a lot about the specifics of the real versions of the forms, but I do know a fair bit about real-world fighting in general, as well as the lore behind Star Wars and its lightsaber forms. With that in mind, I'll add my voice to the comments about canon/lore related stuff primarily, with references to how they are adapted to the real world rather than a focus on the real-world adaptations themselves.

Form 1 is a singular and very specific "beginner" style, and the starting point for any aspiring Jedi or Sith in most eras of Star Wars where there are lightsabers and where there is any lore about their use. It's the most easily codified into a real-world fighting system because it's the only style with more than just aesthetic or philosophical basis on which to be defined. The next 4 forms (2 to 5) are distinct in lore, but less clearly-definable in terms of real world combat techniques. Most lightsaber users typically learn a little of each, but focus their efforts on a particular style from 1 to 5 which suits their body and/or their preferred method of resolving conflict. A special note needs to be made about form 5, since it has 2 sub-forms within it, both of which are form 5, but each of which is distinct from the other and will often be relied on by specific users to the exclusion or near-exclusion of the other. The sub-forms of form 5 have the same core philosophy to a point, but have enough differences to be easily argued to be separate forms. Form 6 in Star Wars lore is less of its own independent style and more of an informal title for the way a lightsaber user will fight if they refuse to focus on any particular "base" form and instead seamlessly blend elements of all the forms with little to no bias toward any given form of a lower number. The lore behind form 7 defines it as being almost entirely focused on aggression and unpredictability (even to Force users who can see the future and read minds) rather than actual "form" in a lot of ways. As such, forms 6 and 7 are the hardest to properly codify into any specific techniques, since form 6 is the use of aspects from all prior forms equally and form 7's defining attributes aren't actually things which translate to a codified fighting style.

Given that form 6 is often referred to as the "moderation" form, or the "diplomat's" form, it's got strong associations with the light side, but there are known wielders of the form among dark siders as well. Similarly, form 7 is explicitly stated to be fueled by emotion, which Jedi are trained to suppress, and is directly referenced as a primarily dark side lightsaber form, with very few practitioners in the light side. This leads me, personally. to consider it fair to treat forms 6 and 7 both as "mastery" forms incorporating the central philosophy of the opposing aspects of the Force into lightsaber combat using the relevant elements of all the prior forms. This is a personal perspective based less strictly on the lore and it can be very easily argued that canon contradicts my view in some ways.

May be you can show me an example of such technique?

Wow, this was a fun read:

So, a few points I picked up while reading:

- Just to clarify from the way I'm reading the post, but not one single Form is hard coded to any real life martial art, nor were they ever meant to by the original writers. They are all these literary archetypes that kinda-sorta match certain concepts to help flesh out badly fleshed out character in the prequels. Makashi's the easiest one to peg because it's every fencing/straight sword style under the sun. Shii-Cho is the foundational basics of all swordwork, which is such a broad statement as to be kinda dizzying in its definition.  There has, as far as I can tell, only one Martial Art in the SW canon that was based off of a real world martial art by the writer that created it: Teras Kasi, which was based off of Silat. (Yes, I marked out when it got name dropped in Solo, thank you for asking). This means...

- It's still all so damn interpretive. And it should be, for a fictional martial art for a fictional weapon. Each Form, as written, has some landmarks that should be in each interpretation, but no answer is nor should be definitive. Your schools-groups-academies can all have their own interpretations. Some of you are probably right, none of them are wrong. Because there are no hard answers to this.

- The 7 Forms, as I interpret them, based off of everything written about them by SW writers are individual Forms developed in response to one another in a lineage, that deal with blind-spots and preference and necessity. Shii-Cho was taught to learn the blade and how to use it in the battlefield, Makashi was how to use it against each other. From there, Soresu and Ataru were developed around the same time to address the need for defense and aggression, Form V saw a refining of those abilities, adding more and discarding the rest.. Form VI, Niman, is a blending of those ideas and wasn't designed for victory--it was designed for survival and improvisation using all tools available. If you want to look at a Niman master, look at Jackie Chan.

- There is definite overlap in Forms in regards to 'Technique' (heavy quotes there)

- Form VII, Juyo, is about Victory, absolute and total. It is utilizing all you understand of combat and coming to a definitive conclusion that will make sure that the opposition does not have the ability to ever come back for a rematch. The best example of this in a movie is the pridefight scene in the Robert Downey Jr fight in the first sherlock holmes fight. A guy spit at the back of his head, and he used a series of--to the people watching--random moves to break his jaw and screw him up so thoroughly that not only would he not be able to spit, but he'd be so mentally screwed up as to not do it ever again.

- Final Point: Forms VI and VII, in my opinion, are presented as  graduate course level Forms to learn. You need to get a working understanding of the others as a means of developing a toolbox to be able to improvise on the spot in an effective manner to acheive the goal you are looking for. By the time you get to learn them, you should have a working relationship with most or all of the others, because at that point you're learning the esoterics, the philosophy, more than you are learning 'technique'. Which, I should point out, has made conceptualizing those two in to the martial equivalent of nailing jell-o to the wall. They are the esoteric endcap to an already esoteric field of study for a weapon that--lest we forget, friends--does not exist in real life.

Love these conversations, thank you for keeping it going.

It's 100% the best description of any "Lightsaber Combat Forms" discussion I've ever read! :)

Honestly I can't tell the difference between the forms the characters use. Its all just kendo and fencing to me.