Saber Forum

Hi guys, my name's Craig Page. I am longstanding member of Stage Combat group NY Jedi. A year ago, I had begun working on a primer and discourse on the Seven Forms of Lightsaber combat. The paper focused on the historical (in canon) and psychological context of each form while also discussing it's strengths, weaknesses and possible analogues in real world martial arts. It also included mentions of examples from some of the Lightsaber Stage Combat groups I had been in contact with, as well as different types of lightsaber designs and other concerns.

I would like to present it here to the saber community at large to get their opinion, comments , editions and additions. The idea is to develop this further in a bid to help the community create and develop forms and fights that best represent the Seven.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111310/7%20Forms%20of%20Lightsaber%20Combat.pdf (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111310/7%20Forms%20of%20Lightsaber%20Combat.pdf)

PS: While it says it in the document. I would like to point out that this document does not necessarily reflect the opinions of NY Jedi, SaberWars.com, LIJedi, or any other entity within and without the Star Wars community. This is my own opinion.

Topic stickied. Great info here.

Woa.  Very impressive and informative...do you mind if I print it out??

by all means, man

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for making your first post so informative.  If our own Master Caine thought this topic worthy of prominence in this hall, that is great praise indeed.

Craig,

I know I said this tons of times with the group I'm with in Texas: The New York Jedi is the group that got me into the whole Saber thing. I've looked up to you guys a great deal. (The Tuesday Night fight between Omar and Jester is -Still- one of my favorite choreographed fights to date. :) ) Thank you soooo much for posting this. I have spent a few nights reading it over and I must say that the information presented made me review how even I approach the saber. I know for a fact I will be studying this, then going back and review the NCSCS system and seeing how I can make practical application using your paper and the NovaCaine system. (Shameless plug for the DVD. I know. But it's good! :) )

Thanks again Craig for putting up that wonderful paper. Hopefully one day I'll get back home to New York and do the clash, rebound, follow through, 6's and 8's with you all.

Novastar, Caine...keep doing what you do. You both inspire me to inspire others in my saber group.

Last but certainly not least: Ultra...thank you for making one of the most durable, rock solid (and feared due to the bullet tip) saber I've ever owned. The Counsular.

I'll stop here before I start huggin' everyone.

@Talon... you're welcome!  Caine & I are glad to inspire even a single person, so it's always good news to hear when someone's enjoyed our 1st DVD.

Speaking of which, Mark & and met regarding DVD#2 on Friday morning... and my new HD cam is comin' soon, so... ... progress!!  :)

Outstanding.

I Fully agree, i now know my next saber will be a curved hilt hopfully custom built by Ultra ;)

but for now which form would i use with a staff\duel sabers i need to figure out........

The thing I noticed with Staff and Dual Sabers(Jar'kai) is that the other forms could be plugged into the weapons with some modifications, especially Dual. SaberStaff could be used with any form but Makashi, which is what the Saber Pike ( http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_pike (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_pike)) seems to excel at due to it's use of stabbing

Thank you guys for the kind words. They mean alot. I started my sabering with a Blue PVC Dominix, recommended to me by NYJ. I'd still have that saber but it died of Pneumonia (Halloween Parade during torrential downpour. The Wiring was drowned and shorted out) .

My posting this here is a way of saying "thank you"

And please, comments, critiques and questions are welcome. I want to make this thing work as best as possible

I agree with you on this.  I was just telling Elzanith on another thread that I couldn't see Makashi being utilized with a staff - it relies on fine blade control and manipulation.  Glad to see my theory validated!

Great writing man, very extensive and informative.  I agree with much of it, and some has given me new ideas about the Forms.  Thanks for sharing!

I would have to disagree a bit on the staff "not" being used for thrusting--most certainly it could be used as such.  Granted, the way the "double lightsaber staff" was designed when they made Episode I... it's not exactly the "true" kind of staff most martial artists are used to... but you could certainly make thrusting actions with it.

As it is... I have plans to show that (at least in Caine and my system of NCSCS) the staff or dual sabers can be used for Forms I & II, and probably even III & IV.

Later on, there will be a staff form (it has been planned since the start), along with a dual saber form (it has been planned from the start).  Again, these come from a more combative perspective where they actually MATCH UP to a defense form, so that you know:

* What action is meant to be an attack
* What action is meant to be a defense
* What specific targets are being addressed
* What action (if any) is meant to be a saberspin
* Etc.

Personally, I've found that a lot of forms out there end up just being "movements in the air", sort of losing the core purpose of what forms were all about in martial arts.  It's another reason I chose to have them "pair up", so that the feeling of 1 & 0... light & dark... up & down... give & take... is there.  In my eyes... a lightsaber "form" without a countering form--is somewhat useless.  My opinion.

I guess with the exception of "saberspin" forms, where... it's just for glitz + finger/wrist manipulation/strengthening.  :)

Awesome document! Great and informative reading material right there!!  ;D

Sadly I've never delved deeply into the different forms and never had any practice or training apart from 15 years of LARP-fighting. Never found a school in my country (Holland) that teaches Lightsaber combat either. That, and I suck at doing kata (which showed during my brief period of Karate and Ninjitsu training) :(

But I guess that I could always create a mock-saber out of wood or PVC (or use my LARPsaber) and look for similarities in my combat stance and routines. Maybe I've even adapted certain rudimentary elements from one of the 7 Forms on a subconcious level already; who knows!  :)

Agreed with most said, and a few points. Shii Cho, as done by General Sun, works on it's own because it works if you imagine it as a straight line through a line of enemies. It was a mook-killer, a bulldozer meant to go through a straight line. The other forms kinda feel...a little flat. I tried working on a Djem So form that uses the principles Jiu-Jitsu and Tonfa deflections, but it felt flat. Then I added a second person to the mix (which is how Jiu Jitsu is really demonstrated, dammit), who helps add context and responce to the form.

As for the saberspin. We found a reason! In the movie, Anakin is actually blocking behind his back and side. However, that does not negate the "Lightsaber Rave" seen when they just stop and flourish without actually doing anything. There is alot of derision in the obi-ani saberspin, I tend to disregard anything that uses it that's not a solo demonstration of bladework, and there are a few who do more than that. If there is a purpose for it other than "Look how flashy this is!" then I'll bite.

I come from the "make me believe it," school of show
,

Popping on to this thread to see if there are any questions or opinions. I know we have a few martial artists on this section, I would love your opinion on it so I can make this work as best as possible.

This is brilliant, thank you.

Really is a lot of info. I also request permission to print this off, I do not like to think that because you said yes to one means yes to all. I am an aspiring film student, with not a bad start if I do say so myself, and I have plans and ideas to do films with Lightsabers and get some great coreography in them. This info will be extremely valuable to me and my friend in our coreography of these films. I noticed that many of you mentioned a dvd and  lightsaber schools. Where can I get the dvd's, is the dvd#2 out yet? I saw that it was in process some time ago, Are there any lightsaber schools in Utah? Thanks again for all that info though, plus from reading your article it has lead me to other sources and books that I should get. Thank you so much!

You have my permission to print, I'm glad it has helped and hope to see results :D

For the record, permission to print is always granted. Consider the price of such is to comment and discuss on your findings and beliefs in the materials. I like discussions, they are better than arguements

This is the kind of attitude that will garner nothing but respect from everyone.  Uilos you are a very valuable member of this forum.  Thank you for ALL of your contributions.

Craig, thanks for putting this together!  As all great writing does, you got me thinking.

Where do you think the dividing line is between the forms, personal style, and unintentional Niman?  (Is there a divider?)  I figure since there's Shii Cho (possibly) worked into most saber dueling - and I only say that because it's the root form - then perhaps it's the little things that separate the forms.

I'm watching Skywalker clear a skiff in ROTJ, and I'm thinking Shii-Cho, right?  He's herding (and cutting down) the crowd.  But he's also two-handing some powerful swings, and throws in a surprise kick, so maybe its Djem So...or maybe he switched forms mid-action.  (I know it's speculative as officially the forms didn't exist until 6 or 7 years ago...or at least that was the first time I learned of them.)  Still, how do we get practical definition of forms in place so that from there, personal styles can emerge?

I just know in my circle of dueling friends, there's a lot of discussion like, "Well, that was Makashi, but it could have been [some other form] if you'd thrown in a little more power from the shoulder."  Should an index of attacks and parries be a goal of dueling enthusiasts?  Dueling manuals?  Fixed starting and finishing positions and such?

Thoughts?  Thanks, man!

I think this is one of those things that gets debated quite a bit.  Artorius and I feel the forms are more of a philosophy than a specific set of moves, but I can see how you could argue that certain forms might have certain techniques attached to them.  From a fictional point of view, I know there are a bunch of "techniques" that are characteristic of each form... at least in the Star Wars universe.  Realistically, it seems more sensible to us that there would be a basic move set and how you execute these moves determines what "form" or "style" you use.

In my mind.....

Niman is like Jeet Kun Do.

"Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee.

That's how I like to Duel.

I could not agree more. The Forms are what is in your mind. The movements just coincide with the philosophy.

wow, two months silent and suddenly boom!

to answer some questions

- The difference between Niman, personal styles and "accidental Niman" is intent and mindset. As I say in the paper, Shii Cho and Niman have a lot in common. Both cover, in essence, other Forms. But Niman has the benefit of having the principles of the five forms before it, while Shii Cho has only the one. It's simplicity and the return to simplicity, the circle is complete.

- This makes me come off as a dick, but Nick Gillard has read this paper, and he confirmed what I wrote in the conclusion of the paper: The Forms were developed independantly of the combat. The writers took what they saw and created a Form out of it, elaborating a lot of the description. So do not use the movies as your main source of information. Use the Canon written information, supplement with what you can find here, and then match what you've made to the movies. If you build a Djem So Form, it works as a form on it's own

- Niman is the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do and Tai Chi. Take all the principles of the Forms before it, but it's use is one of meditation and discipline. Tai Chi can be used for combat, but it's properties as a meditative form are what make it distinct (like Niman's description). Again, this goes into how what seperates Niman with personal styles and combinations.

- People do try to make Form Manuals, tutorials, and the Forms themselves. Only one in my mind really is considered Canon (as much as a non-sanctioned group can get) and that's Shii Cho as developed by Damon Honeycutt, aka General Sun. He was one of the original Masters and instructors in NY Jedi, and one of the first to go "I'm making a version of Shii Cho, hope you like it." He then created a form that is precisely as it is described, and it works. I have a Djem So form, and even I don't put it in this high of a regard.

- The Forms are symbols of combat. They represent mindsets and attitudes of the Jedi who hold them, as the Jedi and Sith are symbols of how power is used in the Galaxy. I once referred to it as "Jungian Martial Arts," because we can all wrap our minds around the concepts, but how it comes out is unique to every person.

Glad you all enjoyed, any questions or comments are again welcome

Indeed, the Forms were created to describe what you see in the film, not the other way around.  They weren't doing choreography with these Forms in mind, they were doing it with the character in mind - which explains why Obi-Wan's form is passive while Anakin's is forceful and dominating.  I think that's a really cool feature though, as each Form sort of contains the essence of that signature character.

Shii-Cho:  Basic learning form
Makashi:  Aristocratic, controlling like Dooku
Soresu:  Patient and calm like Obi-Wan
Ataru:  Brash and instinctual like Qui-Gon
Djem So:  Overpowering and impatient like Anakin
Vaapad:  Channels the darkness, basically it's badass like Samuel L Jackson ;)

All great points Uilos!  Please keep this fruitful discussion going.

I really like the Idea of Vapaad.

We all have frustrations in our lives.

Now from a Jedi standpoint, I'd use that anger and or other various emotions to fuel me but afterwards you just have to let it go.

Otherwise it will consume you.

*This is just how I look at Vapaad*

Luckily the Sith have their own version Juyo.

Although it's argued who developed it (though it's most likely the Sith) The Jedi were know to teach it to Master Level Jedi who had proven they COULD handle it. Vapaad has the distinction of being almost a personal form, Mace's. By the end of the Clone Wars, he's the only one who knew it and the only one to teach it. Those who did know it other than him went to the Dark Side. When Dueling Quinlan Vos, Vos used several Vapaad moves he learned from one of the fallen users. Mace immediately stopped him and told him never to use it. So it's not a Temple sanctioned form, it's Mace's, which puts it in a very different position. Ultimately the difference between Juyo and Vapaad is how the emotions getting used are channeled, if at all. Juyo lets the emotions flow while Vapaad channels them into something constructive

A lot of my character was inspired by Quinlan Vos. ;D

He's a favorite of mine too, for the record, Vos mastered Ataru, might have mastered Vapaad, and knew Makashi.

Uilos,

Awesome! Thanks for all the insight. Wow, Nick has read your discourse. Excellent!

Independent of combat. Cool, I figured it was something like that. Thanks for clearing it up though.

 Yes, General Sun is - in my opinion - synonymous with Shii Cho. Of all the NYJedi videos on YouTube, his art sets the standard for that form.

Have you posted your Djem So form? Would enjoy seeing it.

There are a couple of versions of it up on Youtube. the first one you find is the first one I made, and not the best. I'm still working on the mechanics and debating a personal overhaul of the whole thing.

Agreed. Each form is more of a philosophy then, aspects of the mind that govern/influence how one functions in combat.

Agreed, it's philosophy, symbology. I've come to call them "Jungian Martial Arts" because they are the crystallized ideal of a martial art, and Star Wars was always one to use Archetypes

As would I!  I know it's a bit much to ask people to post videos of themselves, but we always welcome visual examples of people's interpretations of these Forms.  IMO that's what's so cool about the concepts of the seven forms - the way people take their real-life experience and use it to build around the SW version of the style.  I'm especially interested in Djem So, as that is one of my favorites (apart from Makashi, which is my go-to form generally).

Hello, i have mastered forms 1,2,4,and 5 of lightsaber combat.  :o :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D ;D

Good for you. The smilies are not a toy.

That's terrific. But how do you define being a "master"?

As for the Djem So video, I have several take of it on youtube, with the first attempt being the most seen. I'm not thrilled with it, it's still too much like Shii Cho for my tastes. I wrote the paper based on what I had learned personally from working on it. I'm also taking instructions from a friend of mine who teaches broadsword combat to better understand the principles better.

This reply warrants a point TJ.

I also agree, and "lol" is not a punctuation mark.  ;D    As for the forms, I am an avid practitioner of Form ZERO http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_%22Zero%22. (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_%22Zero%22.)  This is probably my favorite example of this form. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow#)     
I train to fight so I do not have to.

Someone once answered what Form Bruce Lee would have been a Master of. I answered "yes".

Bruce Lee did not die, he had just gone beyond the need to fight in the physical realms

Agreed.

Ok, so mental aspects are the driving elements that separate the forms and thus how a saber is operated in a given duel...of the fates.

(Sorry about that. I pun shamelessly. Be advised. Or warned.)

And these philosophies, while written, are largely in development. And therefore...debatable? Open to discussion/revision/elaboration?

For instance, I see Shien as its own form. I understand its aggressive nature links it with Djem So, but it is also separated from Djem So's emphasis on brute strength and imposing natural stature. Performed at range, Shien does not - as I see it - require its user to be physically big or strong, so it becomes available to a larger demographic of students than Djem So.

"Being a warrior isn't all about just swinging a sword, he tells him, "It's finding good reason to draw your sword in the first place." - Zeus, Immortals.

It just sounded like something Master Lee would say. ;D ;D

We are in agreement then. Shien and Djem So are joined by Theme: Returning the opponents Attack. Shien focuses on groups and returning ranged blaster attacks while Djem So is a Form meant for dueling using one's own power (whether physical or Force assisted). So they are the same kind of Form, but their applications vary. Shien relies on Grace and Speed, while Djem So relies on Strength and Force.

I read somewhere that sword work is like a cart with two wheels. One wheel is your physical skill and the other is the mental and spiritual aspect of the duel. If either is out of balance, your cart tips over. I thought that pretty smart.

There were parts of this I didn't answer, and looking back I feel I should have.

The Forms, in canon, have specific moves and physical aspects.

As for the Real World: there is nothing set in stone. Unless Uncle George says "These are the Forms, enjoy", nothing is set in stone. and even then we will debate and argue.

Well I don't know if your group says much about you, but I'll  watch it!

I'm not sure how to take that statement lol

That does seem to be the way. Lol!

read it! thought it was extremely in depth and far more interesting than the brief passages on the forms from the way of the jedi book.

thanks for sharing

Agreed!

Yes, we agree! In essence there are two manifestations of the Form V retaliation philosophy (right?). Seems some of my own musings need revision. Thanks!

Yes, they are two diffeent manifestations. Shien shows it's Soresu origins, focusing on the group, speed and ranged attacks. Djem So focuses on it's Makashi side, focusing on the Duel. Both are geared towards retaliation, but go at it differently.

Offensive in nature. Versatile. I like it. :D

Greetings all,

I'm new to Ultrasabers and just got my Dark Initiate V3 Sith.

I'm trying to find out how I can locate a Saber Organization near myself in Massachusetts.

Thanks:

Welcome!

However, this isn't quite the thread you should be posting this in. It's best if you create your own topic in this section to look for interested parties

I very interesting thread...a thought to consider is that these forms represent a structure or format of approach and not the final end result...meaning that everyone would end up with a different variation of a given form.

So perhaps a way to look at the seven forms is to consider them as layers.

A priority of precedence, like

1. Shii Cho
2. Soresu
3. Djem So

This jedi would say that he follows the Shii Cho form...but in truth balances certain aspects of all three.

Another might use

1. Soresu
2. Soresu
3. Soresu

A true master/student of Soresu...creating a specific focus unseen by the casual familiarity.

But I suspect that most players would use two or three or more styles to create a blended or fusion style that would favor one over the others...even if this other style aspect is a single move of another style.

To follow just one style I would suspect would be to invite weakness as your opponent would know what to expect...unless you were an icon, one who was nearly without flaw...so fast, so strong, so perfect that it doesn't matter that your opponent knows what to expect...but this would be rare...so I suspect most of us would fall into a bastard style of two or three that allows a bit of flexibility and option.

:)

PS
Great article...

Yes, I say it at the end. No one learned JUST ONE form. That's insane. Everyone started off learning shii cho, then they progressed to learn the other forms (except VII, which was only taught with permission). During their training, they would excel at one or two forms and Master them, but they'd be grounded enough in the others.

Fantastic read! Job well done Uilos.

I'm bookmarking this as a field guide :)

Thats an excellent way of putting it. I think taking aspects of certin forms can mold you into a Force (no pun intended) to be reckoned with, IMO. In that case, I know for sure I combine at least 3 just based off the principles and acts of what I know thus far:

1. Shien (w/out reverse grip)
2. Ataru
3. Soresu

It's definitely a neat way to think about it.  I need to really sit down and discuss some of these ideas with Artorius, but there's one theory that's been forming in my mind for some time now.

That theory is this:  everyone has a "base style" that they fall back upon when the situation is dire.  For me, being as my experience is in fencing, this tends to be Makashi.  Artorius is very patient (in combat) and very skilled at defense, so he feels comfortable in Soresu.  At the same time, each of us has a few styles that we use small amounts of here and there - for me, it tends to be either Ataru or Djem So (depending on who I'm fighting), and for him it's more Vaapad.  I like to think of it as a soup recipe (strange I know) - you have your broth, which is the main component, and your ingredients.  In my case it would have a Makashi broth, with Djem So and Ataru mixed in.

If that sounds insane... I apologize lol

Another way to think about it (another "point of view", if you will) is this:  everyone has a passive behavior, and an active one.  Artorius uses Soresu as a passive, and Vaapad as an active (when he needs to take the initiative).  If you use this approach, keep in mind that everyone will have different percentages of passive vs active - for instance Bob might use 95% Soresu and every once in a GREAT while utilize Djem So, whereas Jimmy might use a 50/50 split between Makashi and Ataru.

Once again, this might just be me rambling... but hopefully it'll at least get you all thinking ;)

Its good thinking, and the soup analogy works "from a certain point of view"

One thing that I had already sent nero a pm regarding, but figured i would put this out there based on the direction the conversation is going.

If you are working on one form that you really want to emulate, but lore wise seems to be built off another form, or a combination of two forms. It definately couldnt hurt to train with people that specialize in those base forms, so you can get those elements together to help improve on that one style that you are trying to make your own.

@Nero

I follow ya, bro! I mean it took Obi-wan 10yrs to master Soresu after Qui Gon's fall to Darth Maul. There's just not enough "standard" years in our lives to be a "master" of multiple forms. So, in turn, you figure out what martial Form suits you, learn it, breathe it, live it, master it, and in your prime, take aspects from other forms that appeal to you.

I love being on the offense and maintaining speed, but also favor quick parries and a solid defense, which is why Shien appeals to me 1st and foremost. And I think in a "SW" Universe, Shien has the uncanny ability to deflect blaster's, which IMO would be a highly used skill. Then mix in my love for acrobatics, even though I am a bigger guy, and you got certain Ataru aspects I will always use. Lastly, having some knowledge in Soresu, IMO, is key. Especially if the fight/duel is prolonged. Soresu is easily the best fall back Form IMO..

But this is just my take on it all. One big, bad ass bowl of "fighting" soup!

I love this analogy, and I'll give a real world example

Bruce Lee originally lerned Wing Chun. He then studied fencing, boxing, jujitsu, and a slew of others. He called his personal style Jeet Kune Do, and later gave the name to the principle Jeet Kune Do. He studied these things, but Wing Chun was still his base. He just applied what he learned to the style he had already mastered.

For me, my primary base Form is Shii Cho. My other styles are Djem So and a smattering of Makashi. Even with my tonfa, I'm usually the one piling straight ahead like a buzzsaw, but will adjust to use power and redirection and then add in point oriented attacks.

And I agree with Veldryne. I love Djem So, but I my main concept is Shii Cho. I'm studying European Longsword with my friends to help get the rhythm set in my mind and body.

Shii-Cho is good stuff, another fine form to have as your "broth" if you will.  IMO the first three - Shii-Cho, Makashi, and Soresu - are excellent picks for this, as they don't have the active and aggressive nature the other forms do.  They each rely on simplicity, but have three entirely different ways of doing it... which is what makes them so versatile.

Tis discourse is spot on and the references to Bruce Lee are perfectly fitting.

My base is probably Shii-cho as well, but I've gone so far into soresu that it's almost impossible to tell.

Nero and I agree here, the first three forms make up three different points of view and are all great start points.

There is a natural progression in the forms as seen by their treatment of the marks of contact. shii cho teaches control as seen by it's focus on Shiim, or grazing the opponent, and Sun Djem, attacking the weapon. Makashi taught precision as seen in it's use of shiak, or thrusting. Soresu was the focus of defending the marks of contact from the attacks. By the time you get to ataru, every mark is free gain because you already know control, precision and how to defend yourself.

Hmmm the old Bruce Lee argument   ::)

An interesting aspect of the JKD is that it was his way, his path, his story.  So for his JKD to work for you then you would need to ignore his path and follow your own with only the philosophy of the JKD to carry you through.  To study his JKD is like studying someone else's speeches or stories, best you could do is repeat or recycle.  

Study everything and anything, every aspect of life can be used, take it all in...use what you can and let the rest go...start again...the cup is ever empty, never intending to be full.

The Buddhist joke is that the cup of the perfect student has a hole in it.

I like to look at the learning process as a structure rather than soup (though soup is a good one).

When you begin your process, you lay a foundation.

You then take whatever building design you have to work with and begin construction.

The design may stay constant or have sections that are different depending on the materials and plans at hand.

And then you have the options of paint, roofing, finish details.

Once finished enough to "live in", you can begin putting in the kitchen, bathrooms, electrical, HVAC, plumbing, etc.

After all this you then consider the carpets, interior paint, etc.

Later on, you may add on a garage, a study, a pool, etc.

You may even tear the house down, clear off the foundation, and start again with a new design.

For me the foundation was hard style karate then I added and altered the design to include various aspects of a dozen styles only to find that none of it worked to the degree I wanted and then I found judo.

I made the hard and tough choice to tear down my house, breakup the foundation, level it all out and start again.

Judo became my foundation that I built my house upon...I did not forget my prior training, I just put it in its own room, a recreation room if you will.

For sabering I have a great deal of experience coming into the process beyond video games, movies, and comic books...I am not 16yrs old...I have been injured and I have injured others...so my style is a focused Soresu without a doubt.

Calm, eyes on the torso, prepared for a shift of position and counter strike...commit and know my intent   ;D

Really good breakdown of the seven forms. Thank you!

Alright, so I have a question

I've been thinking of this for a while now, and I wanted to get your take on it all. I wanted to do a video guide for this paper. By that I mean a look at the form, including showing martial arts examples, as well as looking at people within the community and interview them on it. It wouldn't be for money () and it wouldn't be me saying THESE ARE THE FORMS, BOW, but try and show what I attempted to write. Would anyone be interested in that?

I'm in.

totally Uilos  ;D

Sounds like fun.

Excellent info here. I like the breakdown and simplicity so anyone can understand. Good job.

I'm no master, but count me in brother!

I'm also a film editor if you need any help with some cuts.-Kashi

Count me in as well.

Sounds like a great idea mate, cant wait to see the finished version. You could do a kickstarter project for it to get more budget, and advertise it on all the led saber forums.

Fantastic info dude, major props, I would also love to see a video, keep it come this stuff is gold.
PS to author, thanks for being okay with the prints, a hard copy will come in handy

Again, the price of printing is to discuss what you've learned.

cool. im personally a juyo/makashi user ;) how do u jedi control ur emotions in a fight?

Hmmm...I'll take this one, from my side anyway...because a fight is no different than a chess match or cooking a large meal...there are elements that must be managed, focus must be maintained, and there are stages to be processed.

If you lose control, well the fight is over...if you go all emotional and crazy and win, then you would have won anyway but now you have to deal with the excess energy and chemical signals...

All that and in a fight or more precise a duel the emotion at hand mostly will be a measure of fear...it will most likely be in the form of apprehension or anxiety, but this still leads to a destructive energy.

Better to stay calm and focused, clear minded, and just deal with the issues at hand...

:)

Prozac.

Being from an Aikido background, I consider myself a Master of Form 0.  “The best way to win a fight is to not be there when it begins,” is what my first sensei told us all the time.  However, you can’t really demonstrate Form 0 and make it look all flashy.

For that reason, I am learning the ways of Form I: Shii-Cho.  Everyone says that Shii-Cho is just a beginner form, but the same can be said for all martial forms until you get past the beginning stages.  Being Aikido, I am drawn slightly toward your descriptions of Form V: Shien.  However, there is some little things that I do not entirely agree with regarding those.

As for Shii-Cho, even Jedi Masters specialized in it (Master Kit Fisto, for one).  However, the true sign of Mastery is to take something and make it your own; adding your own flare and knowledge to build an art.  For me, I plan to do so by demonstrating it in a Dynamic Sphere.  Also, learning Shii-Cho for the use of other weapons, such as a saberpike, saberstaff, and twin shoto sabers.

Finally, spinning.  I believe that spinning is essential to lightsaber forms.  It is not just flashy and showy, it has a practical purpose.  It limbers the wrists, teaches blocking and striking principles, and aids with misdirection.  Anyone who has ever dueled knows the pain that can come from tight muscles.  Even basic kata work without proper stretching can hurt.  Moving the saber quickly from one zone to another to block is a necessity whether dueling one person or many.  Finally, with a twirling blade, who knows where the attack will come from… only your choreography partner.

I would have to argue this point, I know the original question was issued to jedi's style, but from a sith point of view you shouldn't underestimate you passion, focus is good, but you should focus the rage and anger of the situation to increase you potential.
Never underestimate the power of concentrating your rage

Here is the problem with fueling your efforts with rage...adrenaline dump.

The issue is the spike eventually drops and then its all concrete legs, blood pressure swings, and related.

 ;D

your assuming it ends, let it be a never ending torrent my friend

Playing a sith character is one thing. But applying those sith tendencies to saber play is dangerous. You can and will hurt someone doing it that way.

Many members have expressed their reluctance to duel someone focusing on sith variants of vaapad for this very reason.

The way of the saber thread is really for us to share ideas about how to interpret the forms and build lightsaber fighting styles for display and light dueling.

These are weapons, every but as dangerous as a solid oak bokken. If you start "hulking out" with one in your hands you are a danger to yourself abd any potential dueling or choreography parts.

Acting like a sith, ie pretending to be one during a public display is fine but it's just that: acting.

This is one type of performance art that method acting should absolutely never be used in.

We have other threads we can discuss Jedi/sith/barranco/potentium/jenseerai philosophy in.

This...but you just just gestured to all of me...lol

Berserk style fighters have been employed to great success throughout the years, but the problem is they become a danger to their own team as well as the other side. Not to mention they're a danger to themselves. They're just dangerous.

I've fought as a Sith personae a few times... Make sure to put the foam on the blades so it's safer... It's intimidating, and wild, and dangerous, but my experience has always been that someone who is in control. Guiding themselves, not being torn in a million different direction by their emotions will have a more solid base of power to draw from

You will never rise to the occasion, you will always fall back on your training.

That being said drawing from your anger can work. With respect to sparring it's dangerous because you can actually hurt someone.

To all Sith: Flying into blind rages is not the way of the Darkside. That is Jedi superstition. They underestimate us. LET them.

Good points. I would like to mention that with the use of protective gear like fencing masks and hockey gloves, along with any full contact sports equipment can actually prevent far more injuries when you are going full speed and power as when you are unprotected doing light stuff.

I don't think people would be using the "Sith" stuff of going ballistic if they were allowed to be shown how ineffective it is. We throw the armor on and can just go. You want to go Berserker on VorNach and myself (Which has happened on numerous accessions) , good luck. Since neither party fears hurting the other or getting seriously hurt themselves, it allows for freer play.

But, supervision from an experienced instructor is a must if you are fighting. Even Jedi style.

and now, my rant on shii cho

Form 1 is seen as the beginners form. It's simple, basic, not too pretty to look at. most study it and move on, only keeping the lesson and not the style from the form as they feel the others are better.

Screw that. shii cho is a siege engine, a shotgun burst in a crowded hallway. It eats battlground, making the opponent panic and limiting their options. It's a bulldozer, or a buzzsaw.
And I'm learning to apply it with my guard-shotos.

And now, my rant on spinning

Spinning without purpose is Bull$%^t. If I had a nickel for every person I've seen do an obi-ani spin mid fight for no reason than just to show off, I'd be a wealthy man. If I had a dime for anytime they were spinning vaguely and calling it Ataru, I'd double my fortune.

That being said, you are holding a giant glowstick of death. We are all naturally inclined to follow light, spins can be good distracting measures, a flourish can be a way to distract/feint/or set up for a next attack. A well placed spin can gain you cover, or transition to an attack or block that would lead you open any other way. In short, a spin must have purpose.

And now, for Juyo.

Do not confuse letting your emotions take control for being out of control. Juyo is about taking your emotions, especially the Joy of Combat and funneling it into your attacks. Yes, your primary focus is emotions, you still have a brain between your ears (or wherever your species carries brain-like masses). Remember, the Sith are all about one thing: Power and Controlling it. The Sith who were no in control of power were soon killed by their enemies or their Masters/Apprentices

This is a fair, accurate, and valid point. Remember, the paper was more inclined towards Stage Combat and helping them better understanding performing the forms, though damned if I was going to let it just stop there.

But this also comes to the conclusion that Juyo is equivalent to Berzerkgang. It isn't. Think of Juyo as less Incredible Hulk and more Hannibal Lecter. The emotion is there, but it is behind cold, sadistic rationality. At least, both are possible, I just tend to favor the former (it scares me more).

As far as the philosophy goes, I'm willing to discuss Sith Philosophy as it relates to saber combat on this thread, as it is relevant to understanding Both sides of Lightsaber combat.

I blame the movie. That's exactly what Obiwan and Anakin did in the fight scene.

Worst fight moment ever.

Where they stopped, popped, and locked for about 20 seconds without actually acknowledging the other existed? Yeah. That's the reason I continue to repeat the phrase: Do not look to the movies to find the forms, ESPECIALLY THE PREQUELS. Look to the writings first.

Yes, the sword play in the films is terrible. Just terrible.

Pretty much mirrored my thoughts on all three subjects.

The spin has actually helped me a fair bit lately. It's been improving my one handed controll a great deal as I work to make the spins tighter.

Where it really helped me, is with tight in, low sweeping blocks. While sparring last week, as I shifted position and my opponent was outside to my right after the previous exchange. I went into the spin, protecting my right side and he came in as I was bringing the blade back around to the front. With the momentum I had, I actually managed to over extend him. And the impact snapped my blade back lightly for a shoulder tap.

Took us both a minute to actually realist what happened.




I'll agree though, standing there doing it in a fight is useless. But used defensively while moving it does have a purpose.

Agreed completely.

Again, keep in mind that my basis for disdain towards spinning comes from the stage combat side of it.

The whole point of the forms, at least in my perspective, is to aid in characterizing the multitude of lightsaber wielders in the series. Note: The Forms were developed near the end of the prequels development. Nick Gillard confirms he didn't have any of these in mind when he developed the fights, and while he is a great fight coordinator, Lucas gave him crap to work with. The prequel fights a visually more dynamic than the Original, but emotional dead (with the exception of the phantom menace fight, but that had more to do with Ray Park forcing everyone to up their game). 

Yeah thats understandable. Man I'd pay like 1000 dollars for a three hour class with ray park...

Excellent point, my friend.  I see Form I as being the original form for a reason.  At the time it was created, saber duels were more formal and traditional, much in the way of the Samurai duels in feudal Japan.  Otherwise, the saberist was fighting through a group wielding standard weapons and firearms/blasters.

When two duelists did face each other, it was quick and succinct.  I see them as similar to renaissance fencing duels, but with the Japanese-inspired moves and counters.  They could be long and drawn out or they could be one slash and done, either way depends on the skill of both combatants.

Samurai styles, much like Shii-Cho, were not designed for dueling.   In fact, the first combat styles of the Katana were used for quickly disarming opponents as you cross the battlefield… the shotgun blast down the hallway.  It was modified into the dueling form of Kendo soon after the Katana began seeing wide-spread use.  Formalized, it was still effective against the common battlefield (multiple opponents, multiple weapon styles, and multiple scenarios).

It is also the first fighting style and was thus used for multiple forms of combat.  Like the training of the katana, naginata, waskizashi, bo and other Samurai/kendo weapons, Shii-cho was useful and used for the lightsaber, saberpike, shoto, and saberstaff.

Again, agreed.  Once you get into combat, a spin is just opening yourself to your opponent giving you a new orifice in your chest.

I wouldn't slam the Star Wars film saber fights too much...they are 100% the reason this site exists...our mutual appreciation of the sabers and the fights.

 ;)

Yes, but isn't it our jobs, as true fans, to hate and whine about every aspect of the films? ::)

It would seem so...but oh so lovingly right?

As those who wish to emulate the spirit (if not the letter) of what they were doing, I feel it a service to look at the material with a critical eye.

Now to learn them all..... I wish.

Point!

The ideas and the spirit of the material are what is enduring. I'm mean that whole parsec thing has been around as long as the hills. The ideas behind the films and the fact that you can go ho,e and use the toys (or whatever now days) to create a personal experience of the films or characters.

Also, little of what we discuss here in the WOTS is from the movies in the first place. It's conceptual and we are the ones giving it form. If it was all in the films, I doubt we would have such a drive to crete it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can still hate the first three movies and like them at the same time.

The Clone Wars is doing a great job flushing these little nerdy problems out in a very entertaining fashion.

But what is most inspiring to me is the we the fans are making superior products when it comes to the lightsaber duels. Sure you have those that just imitate the ones in the movies, but many of the fan films have incredible fights.

Well said brother! Ive seen some Fan fights that kill any stars wars film I think the best one is RVD2.... so far. I plan to participate and film the largest fan war ever to be filmed all I need is money and the will and able bodies to do so.

The popularity of the films (and the joy in bashing elements of them to some extent) brought about these products, this site and this community however I still wouldn't use them as an example of how combat works. I'm a fan of a good stage fight but some of the actions we see (you know what I'm talking about) are less than stellar examples of that.
Appreciate them for what they are, we don't all have to agree on what's good and bad about them, but I think we're better off using the material this community is producing to learn from.

Yes. There is a difference between "bashing", "Criticizing" and "Critiquing". The first two are just tearing something down because you don't like it. Critiquing is looking, assessing, and explaining why, and for what it's worth, what you think could have been done better. I try very hard to attempt the third without slipping into the second and evade the first

yeah you guys are right I should be viewing our communities work more and I would I just have more trouble finding the real stuff to watch and learn from than I can watching those guys or others. Maybe its me but..... nvm I'll check the search tab and see if there is a thread.

These should get you started:

https://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber (https://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber)

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7275.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7275.0)

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6403.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6403.0)

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6842.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6842.0)

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7210.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7210.0)

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7347.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=7347.0)

Definitely go with the Terra Prime videos. They are a GREAT resource for starter folks! I use their videos and base everything I do off of them. I cannot thank them enough!

Thanks Vornach and Solinus I'll get started on these. a point for each

(Shameless plug)
Check out the Facebook site as well: https://www.facebook.com/TerraPrimeLightsaberAcademy (https://www.facebook.com/TerraPrimeLightsaberAcademy)

I think this characterizes a core component of "spinning", which is as a developmental exercise.
We often see big spins and flourishes as part of a combat encounter when the actual combat application for them is literally much smaller, partial arcs and rebounds or re-directions as the result of contact with another moving, high speed blade.

"Full of mistakes to be nothwithstanding his to shine"

Mistakes are one of the few things that we can truly call our own   ;)

I downloaded it a week ago, I've been reading it in my free time and I love it!
So informative, very helpful! I love it!
Thank you very much!

I'd like a tip on what saber form to switch to. In addition to Shii-Cho and basic Soresu, I've been using a slightly unrefined version of Djem So. Currently, I'm going through some health problems that have presented in my last few sparring matches. I actually got put on a cane today, which amuses the Hell out of me. It'll be a cold day on Tatooine before I let this affect my saber-work, though. What style would you recommend for someone with slight physical disabilities. I've got fibromyalgia and a weak heart; but I'm strong enough to dent a heavy grade blade when using a heavy grade blade. My instincts are also good enough to take on a master and last long enough to earn his respect. Nothing short of a direct hit to the throat, gut, groin, or head is going to put me down, either. Here I am. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyGlacier) I think I should switch over to Shien as my main style and implement more Soresu into my swordplay. Any advice? Now I Just need to work on my lightsaber cane...

Hrrm, I would actually recommend Niman. It is balanced, more meditative and discipline oriented without over-doing it, and is based primarily on Soresu.

I'd rather not have to trade in my entire personality, but you likely have a very good point. Discipline is to the Inverse Knight as Sanity is to Deadpool. I've completely discounted Ataru from the beginning; it just won't do. I don't now, nor will I ever have the energy to pull that style off. Makashi might actually be a good style, since that's what Sir Christopher Lee / Count Dooku used to compensate for his old age and mobility issues. But I'm going to do a lot of reading up on Niman, despite my general distaste for the form. It just leaves you without an advantage. I've got a bit of untrained Hiten Mitsurugi in me; I'm an Empath by nature, so I use that in my fights to gain the upper hand. Works in video games too. It's why I destroy humans but get destroyed by the computer. What I do (A Dark-Sided Version, to my Neutral/Light Version) was discussed by Scourge in the Revan Novel, as to why he has difficulty with Droids. Perhaps this'll give some more insight into my personality and fighting style (I'm not posting videos until I've trained enough to not be embarrassed - and I get a sparring partner who isn't a cockbite). Niman is a malleable form, though. I can probably do something with it. Any other advice will be welcome and appreciated.

In my last sparring match, I ended up not only driving my opponent into the corner, but into a very small space (between the fence and our house - about four feet apart - with the fence closed, so he was, for all intents and purposes, death-boxed) and then just kept pressing the attack and countering his strikes and sweeps until I was exhausted (weak heart) and he had nowhere to go. We fight informally, as to be safer, so when I struck him in the gut, and he in my back - we called it a tie. I'd have won if my damn heart and asthma hadn't taken over me. I had to go sit down with my inhaler a while. I owned that entire match against an opponent of better physical conditioning, but slightly less skill. I got tired, that's why I lost. Or tied. Loss = Tie. I don't like ties. I'd rather lose than tie. A tie teaches you nothing. Losing brings wisdom. I have the skill for Djem So, just not the physical capability to keep it up. This is where the damnable Force would come in handy.

Shii-Cho is, of course, my starting point. Makashi is a definite option, considering my disability, but I simply lack the grace; which can be worked on. I'm a Genius Bruiser, but I'm still a brute force and intuitive fighter. I doubt that's respected, but I fight with my heart and my instincts. Soresu will require me to practice my patience; while not my greatest virtue, it's been slowly getting better. Some meditation and some relaxation should help. Ataru is out, simply because I'm too hindered to use it. Shien and Djem So are completely subjective at this point. Niman is going to be my greatest asset, as of now. I refuse to study Juyo, on principal. I have my history with the Dark Sides. Before I was taken by my Master, I was a Sith Acolyte. Never again. It also presents the same energy depletion as Ataru, making it impractical.

After I get a basic mastery of Shii-Cho, I think I'm going to practice getting a basic understanding of every form(sans Ataru and Juyo) to add into my Niman. Using Shien and Soresu as my main points. Until I do something about my heart, I don't know how my body will handle Djem So (unless my skill outweighs my physical disabilities). The mental aspects are what get me. I'm a very "Id" like person. I'd love to be Luke, but I've got too much of his father in me. Again, any and all advice is appreciated greatly.

As a health and fitness professional specializing in such populations, I do not recommend you do this by yourself. Find some sort of formal instruction in some martial art or physical activity. The issues you describe present particular challenges that you may over look .

Also, do not focus so much on the movies and such for forms. do what appeals to you and find your interpretation. We are trying to post videos that will give people basics to formulate this on their own at Terra Prime: http://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber?feature=guide. (http://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber?feature=guide.) Things like "Niman gives no particular advantage" or "Such and such is weak against multiple opponents" works great for comic books and stuff like that, but in reality martial art doesn't work like that. None of these things really exist and the descriptions are based on mostly dramatic themes in media rather than sound fighting principles.

it's an open book really. Your limitations will make what you do unique even as you use it to improve those limitations. Just relax a bit and feel free to find your own form. I think Niman was suggested because it has a sampling of techniques from different forms (supposedly) but, Any of these forms, if they are truly separate arts would have all of the basics hard wired into them. That would be a great place to bring your own personality out.

The other issue is that this kind of stuff generally reveals it's self to the student. Experiment and find out what suits you best through doing.

Practicing cane spinning - just saying. I have direct experience with this :D

All my swordsmanship is informal and self-taught, but my melee martial arts are (Muay Thai, Jui Jitsu, and American Boxing) all under instructors. I'm aware my health issues may cause detriment; but I'm not going to give up on martial arts. It's one of the few things that give me pleasure.

I use forms more as a guideline to help explain in simple form. I've taken a look at that, and when I'm get my strength back in a few days and rest a bit; I'll start getting my shell taken care of. Use those videos, follow my kata: train up. I'll head to gym when I get a stronger painkiller, too.

Understood, Master.

Yes, sir.

Keeping all the information Master Nonymous has just presented to you in mind, the first thing off the top of my head I would you try first is Makashi. Much of the discussion here is that it is most closely related to fencing which , compared to the other Forms, involves much smaller, more controlled blade work and a bit less overall physical movement.

Wonderful, and very informative.....printing my copy now

Agreed. If something's amiss, solve/reconcile it. Criticizing and bashing never move from identifying a problem to resolving the matter (they're the do nots). Critiquing is the proactive option (the do).

Congratulations Craig for this great essay, find it helpful and I am going to keep it for further study. I am a 4 year Iaido practitioner and I want (in the future after a lot of work) to do my own interpretation for lightsaber using Iaido styles and if possible a writen discourse like yours. English is not my first language so please be patient with my bad english =)

It's quite fine Xango, your English is a lot better than some of the native speakers I know. Where are you from?

Hi Craig, from Mexico, live in Yucatan where the asteroid strike =)

Quite informative. We at the Yavin IV Saberfighting Club don't try to reconstruct the seven forms, which is fitting, because we are supposed to be the early New Jedi Order before the rediscovery of the old forms. We're more or less into Fast/Medium/Strong. But perhaps when I'll grow to be a master, I'll give it a try and introduce Soresu into our little Outer Rim community.

Chixulub represent! I love the Yucatan; it's my favorite spot in Mexico.

I really like ataru because it looks good at night. I will buy a Dark Initiate v3 with sound soon.

This is great Craig, thanks for your hard work,
talk soon,
Sun

This is an extremely useful resource. I might print off several copies for my friends that deal with Star Wars Lightsaber topics, if you wouldn't mind. If not, then I will definately redirect the to this place. Such an interesting, well written response towards Lightsaber Combat Forms.

I have a standing "Print, by all means" policy. My one condition is that you post your opinions and findings. I like a discussion.

Nice work. I'd love to get more involved in this and it's good to know there is a great following for this.

props go to you mate.

Welcome to the forums!

There are bunches of fellow saberiests up in the Great North...there closeness of course is relative...big place  :)

Here is a map so you can see if anyone is close

http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/1531286 (http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/1531286)

Does anyone have a personal opinion on which saber to use in a dueling event?

Welcome to the forum!

Could you  be more specific about the saber choice?

Are you asking about the extras and options, such as blade type?

:)

Excellent paper. Very Informative, as well as helping confirm some beliefs i aleady had about the forms

Welcome to the forums...nice thread to start on  :)

Really excellent work Craig.

This has helped me think about the 7 Forms in a clearer way.

I like how it covers them in more detail in one place then I have ever seen before.
Thank you for your work and effort.

Kind Regards
Bluesky

Excellent information. I happened to stumble upon this before and I have to say it was brilliant to post.

I'm glad you enjoyed!

My hero.... :o

thank you sooooo much, now I can try to draw parallels between historical long sword/ side sword techniques and the stage fight version of those 7 styles!!

If anyone wants to share and talk about how we can use the techniques for real sharp blades ( cortosis vibroblade works!) and cut everything anyway with no blade weight type of sword.
We can base it mostly on the german and itaian fencing techniques.

Also I really want to practice with someone used to train with you guys from NY ( where I was 2 weeks ago...stupid me)
I wan tto come up with a "realistic fight" since I too prefer a realistic feel than a flurry huming fight.
Of course , Jiu Jutsu, Aikido and even Iaido form can tottaly be part of it and is ( in my opinion) necessary when you get to the proper mesure for kicks, punches and locks/throw.

Please feel free to share with me and ask me about historical techniques and style!

Cheers.

The material the Nonymous and I present is developed from actual sword based marital arts. He has extensive experience in Chinese martial arts and much of his material is based on the Chinese longsword, a 2 handed jian and the dao (Chinese broadsword).
The bulk of the Djem So material I'm putting together is derived from German longsword. Eventually I'm going to put some single handed saber information out which, in large part, will be derived from German messer techniques (check out Talhoffer).

Semper memores acti prudentes futuri   ;D

Thanks VorNach for the precisions.

As I told you it's been more than 10 years i'm training in WMA so German school both on longsword and messer, I know quite a bit.
It will help me transition to lightsaber.

I'm learning and teaching the Fiore system for 3 years now, quite different but with the same core, of course.
This system would be a great base to devellop Niman style further more. Just to see if theh mechanics of Fiore could bring even more freedom and overall efficiency to what you guys have already created.

If the Martinez of the forum is THE Maestro Martinez from NY traditionnal fencing school, then I shut up^^
SInce he is way beyond my tiny knowledge and he probably already included Fieore in the 7 forms.

Damn i'd like to be in NY now....craving knowledge and sparring XD.

But for anyone interested , just PM me I can share a lot of material.
Also , if some are interested in using any pole arm like lightsaber, I can forward you materials from "le Jeu de la Hache" ( game of the axe) which is the best  source for pole axes and pole weapons in general.
I have it both in French ( original text) and English.

Wow! That was very informative and helpful. Especially since I'm wanting to teach myself how to fight with a lightsaber and sword. Thank you!

Just a little mention here for jshmeyers.
Don't try to learn swordfighting by yourself.
You will need a lot of knowledge first to understand and do the proper moves, again and again.
It''s abaout body mechanics and the way the weapon is ment to be used.
You can't improvise that.
But after some times, you can learn other weapons way easier and with more efficiency.
Look on internet around your city if there is a WMA school or ask around here to get some names of places, serious ones.
For you to understand all the concepts and rules around historical fencing, it's better to learn from a teacher that knows his trade. Tehn you ll be able to adapt your knowledge and techniques with a Lightsaber for stage fights.

It's just my advice but having seen a lot of injuries and accident amongst the non train practicioners, I prefer to be honest and give you a safe and valuable way to get experience in fencing^^

Hope you'll find a school closeby you!

Regards

I live out in the uintah basin which surrounds vernal. If there is any place that will teach kenjutsu let me know. Otherwise I will need to teach myself simply because of my financial cituation. I can't really afford to travel tjat far. Further help would be appreciated. I mean advive.

Wow.

Vernal Utah is out of the way...just a little.

I suspect their are no Kenjutsu instructors in the small town with a population of 9,000+....but the interweb and DVDs are your friends!


You do have a local option though...not exactly what you want but formal training is formal training after all...

Tang Soo Do (this is the style Chuck made famous :) )
http://www.vernalmartialarts.com/about_us.html (http://www.vernalmartialarts.com/about_us.html)


Good luck!

Good news though...Tang Soo Do is a great starter for what you seek...it is effective, can be flashy, and uses techniques that will transfer nicely into saber dueling  :)

You can look on the net for Iaido dojos too.
It's the most preserved form of Japanese fencing with a true shinken ( modern forged sharp katana)
It's mostly kata based so great to learn  cuts, forms and stance.

For practical fight, it's better to look at any WMA (western martial arts) club to learn european historical styles
Un fortunately, Iaido is difficult to learn because you need to practice with a sensei teaching you and correcting you, since the angle of a cut has to be perfect or become useless. But it's mostly because of the blade itself and it's dynamic.
But you can get a lot of material in video from youtube, and I mean a LOT^^

I would have gladly tought you the basics since I have 4 years experience in Musoo Shinden Ryu  but I live way to far from you....
Anyway , if you need explanations and hints, PM me whenever you need!

Cheers

Thanks to Relmeob, I now know of another martial art: Tang Soo Do^^

Direct transmission from a teacher is vitally important. Be wary of wasting good training time with a teacher who himself was taught incorrectly, it only perpetuates the vicious cycle of weakening the art. Also be wary of learning only by video if you don't already have a good foundation in proper swordwork. It's also dangerous to start mixing up techniques from multiple schools before you lock in your habits from any one style.

Also, there are quite a few private dojos who do not advertise openly (by definition) on the net or anywhere else. Look for forums like E-Budo.com, MartialTalk, MartialArtsPlanet, or SwordForum International as starting points for your inquiries. Some of these forums also have dojo locators as well, that might not show up readily on Google.

Thanks I'll have to check out those forums

Good day,
I've been trying to view this document and I keep getting the following error:
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Any help I would greatly appreciate.

Try this link:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnx0ZXJyYXByaW1lbGlnaHRzYWJlcmFjYWRlbXl8Z3g6NzEwZTc1YzJkYmJkMjc0Yw

Hello everyone,

I am new to this hobby since my first lightsabres has just been ordered a week ago.
But i would enjoy digging into that with the proper reinforcement and support.
Since i know my ways in Arnis and Talhofer I may have to unlearn and relearn many things due to the properties of the weapon (no sharp side/Blunt side, much less weight, ect.) but i am quite willing to try it out.

First and foremost i have already seen and rewalked some of the Videos in youtube but since i would like to indulge deeper into this activity i am now reaching out for you in the hope that you maybe know a teacher near Frankfurt, Germany who might be interest in getting a learnwilling student.

I am now 30 years old, just engaged my girl a week ago and am able to train 2-4 times a week.
My past experience in Swordfighting is Arnis when i was a little boy for around 3 years (as a philippino you grow up with your father just putting sticks in your hand while saying hit that tree... ^^ of course the story is longer on what he wanted to show me but i dont want to bother you at this point). And i was able to find a teacher in Talhofer style of swordsmanship which i followed for 4 steady years in a row. I have never been at a contest of any sort, but the training included sparring in armor for 45 minutes every trainingsunit.


I would be happy to learn again from somenone accomplished in this art.

With my best wishes.

Very respectfully

Kitra

And also this: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7hyd1jukm9urfev/zYcIonlvcW (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7hyd1jukm9urfev/zYcIonlvcW)


Sorry for the technica glitch

Have you tried Sword Forum International? (http://www.swordforum.com/forums/content.php)

No not yet but i am looking into it right now!
Thank you sir. :)

Kitra,
Arnis and the works of Talhoffer are excellent for adaptation to lightsaber combat. It will be more a matter of refining than unlearning things.
A lightsaber has more in common with a stick than a sword (it's a round, omnidirectional striking surface as opposed to having defined edges) so experience in stick fighting styles is very helpful.
I'm rather jealous that you found someone teaching Talhofer; Germany should have some very good schools for Western weapon based martial arts.
Were you working with a particular weapon or was it a comprehensive multi-weapon approach?

Welcome to the Forum.

That is nice to read thank you. That is more than i have hoped for.
Yes i was suprised to that there are so many schools near me (3) when i moved here. One of the teachers hes a Czech is even already quiting his job since he is ordered in all europe to learn his adaption of talhofer principles.

I was nearly always working with 2 short sabres since i in my school we had the chance to do so. The other 2 schools are more traditional and favor the one and a hand as talhofer did in most of his techniques.
Here in germany we have a huge scene of middle agers which are able to trade ideas and favors on big markets throughout the year. that was my opportunity to to find my teacher in the beginning he had a show and i was so compelled in trying out his defence (which was rediculous even against 2 swords) that i was a first day student and after than ever since.

Thank you both of you for the links.  They both work.

Sincerely, thank you for the work.

Great info, thank you for sharing your work

I don't mean to knock anything this document says...most of this is found in the Jedi Path book. Though there were added segments (which I enjoyed reading very much). Wouldn't call this plagiarism because it is (in its own way) original. I loved this.

The last paragraph of Page 4 explains that, the book came out shortly after I finished writing the Ataru or Djem So article.  The sections on the Marks of Contact and the Hilt Types and Lightsaber Resistant Material are based from those. Plagiarism is copying information and selling it off as your own. I've given full credit to where it's due and needed.

The information is incredible I keep reading it over and over again

I  have to agree with matter Uilos. Throughout  his work on the subject he gives credit where credit is due. In no way is it plagiarism.  again thank you for that work of yours it is very enjoyable and informative read.

I really also need to chime in here.

As a graduate student in experimental archaeology, I gotta say you took the whole "7 Forms of Lightsaber Combat" to a whole additional level than most do.  Thank you so much for putting it so clearly too.  It was a great read, and one that pretty much anyone with some semblance of Star Wars knowledge can comprehend.  Very well done

Very interesting stuff

Form 5   Niman is all round so its perfect 4 me

(Form 5 is Shien /Djem So  --  Niman is Form 6)

So, I've read a TON of the EU( up to a year ago anyways) and I've been swordfighting (mostly self taught) for around 17 years, so this discussion is Awesome, am reading through the thread right now, and just had a couple of comments to start!

Firstly, thrusting with a staff is actually quite useful. Think about it, if you thrust with a staff, and can predict which side your opponent will block with, you can use the added kinetic energy to spin the staff and hit with a more powerful strike. However, you also leave yourself open for that brief second, so youw ould need to know your opponent well enough to be able to guess if their going to step forward and attack, or retreat out of the way of the spin. If they step forward, simply step back. They step back, you step forward, so on and so forth.

Also utilizing fine control with a staff is VERY POSSIBLE! Its not easy, and it would take years to master, but using Makashi would work well...actually I guess it would be more of a sub style, a blend style, and not pure Makashi....never mind, I withdraw my second comment XD

This is awesome!

Very interesting, couldn't stop reading it, has a lot of insight

This is an excellent article.  Opening many doors in my mind...

Hey gang, I know I don't post much, but I just found out that if you search for "Lightsaber Combat" or "Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat", then this post appears on the second link.

This link is second to only the Wookiepedia article. This brings me no small amount of joy, awe, and humility. Thank you for all those who have read it and I hope it and I continue to help in your sabering.

I read your discourse already some months ago and never found time to thank you for your effort writing that paper. Together with the published TPLA videos/Live shows (I love watching all of them over and over again, btw) it provides much help and information on the background of the Seven Forms and basics of saber combat!

So - thank you, Master, and have a point!

Hello. Never over use a pattern in form 4 or 5. Change you parries and rate of attacks.

 Use form 6 with upwards strokes instead downwards if you are intermediate in skill. Do not overextend in stave.

This is a fantastic read, thanks for sharing it with us :)

I look forward to learning!

I fight in form VI Niman style.  I fight single grip, florentine (two blades), staff and pike.  These are with real weapons, looking forward to applying this to saber fighting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I remember reading this for the first time, then printing it off and putting it in a binder to I could read it without being near my computer. XD

Great work, Master Uilos. Points to you. :)

This!

Lots of great info ;D ;D ;D

Excellent read. Printed it out and gonna read it again!


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This is really informative, however, while reading the document I began to try to visualize these styles.
The vids below help animate the text. ;)


The last 2 embedded vids were over the embedded limit, so here are the direct links.

Form VI Niman: Demo of Accelerations and Dulon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-npjrtkK1w&index=8&list=PLa0qMrSIuQ9ruWsNdoUBFl7Oyucmgv5Hy)

Form VII: Juyo Dulon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW7jPXf5ueE&list=PLa0qMrSIuQ9ruWsNdoUBFl7Oyucmgv5Hy&index=9)

Since Master Uilos is a part of the TPLA Headmasters, you've gotten it quite right!  He's our expert on the Seven Forms lore, keeping us grounded in the Star Wars universe.

Just stumbled upon this and I must say that you have done a marvelous job in your compilation of knowledge of the forms. Have a LS Point!

Hopefully I get a chance to do some in-depth reading of this soon.

I have a bookshelf full of historical European fighting, and have spent most of my time with rapier and longsword (with a dash of sword and buckler thrown in), and with my first US coming on Friday, I'm interested in exploring what can cross over and what can be adapted.

On my shelves, I've got:

Several versions of Ringeck's Commentaries
I.33
Codex Wallerstein
Paulus Kal
Hans Talhoffer
Joachim Meyer
Ridolfo Capo Ferro
Filippo Vadi
Salvator Fabris
Girard Thibeault d'Anvers
Numerous books expounding on those works and others.

So, I'm looking forward to reading through the discourse and comparing and contrasting with what I'm familiar with already.


Oh, and I have Camillo Agrippa on my old Kindle, too.

Hello, i'm French padawan  ::)

We are also looking studied the art of fighting with a lightsaber here. Personally I studied little more than 1 year the two handed sword buy :

Master Johannes Liechtenauer a Allemand old master.

I noticed he was not in the list above. For Chi Cho is fine. Thank you for the list. It's a good idea !

Liechtenauer's system mainly comes down to us via other masters' commentaries on his original, somewhat cryptic, writings.  Of those other masters, probably the most well known and studied by those learning Liechtenauer's style are the commentaries by Sigmund Ringeck, as they are much more specific and practical than the earlier commentaries by Hanko Döbringer.

So, Liectenauer IS there, just not named specifically.  I also tend to think of Liectenauer and the whole of longsword fencing as more akin to Djem So than Shii Cho.

Welcome to the forum.

Oh Yes ! For Lichetnauer I have a french codex, translate by A.M.H.E. du MAINE. It contains all the comments to the first 5 glossators (Hanko Döbringer, Sigmund Ringeck, Juden LEW, Peter VON DANZIG, Hans VON SPEYER) in other color or police,  because some contradicts the other, and the student is free to find the best corresponding for him. Some interpretations are still being studied. I do not know if it can be found in this form in English...  :-X

After an afternoon to wield a lightsaber in the garden, I must say I am surprised by the handling agility of the lightsaber. It allows many movements that would not allow a sword. The "strong" and the "weak" also have a quite different compared to what I know  with two handed sword. If we had a real laser, it would really be a formidable weapon ! Sorry for my nerd comments.

I just find a little fault : the on/off button little inconvenient when rotating the guard to send a shot without gloves...I have a bulb beginning  :-\ long road for become a Jedi started ^^.

Okay I study Liechtenauer with Shii Cho And Djem So. I like Liechtenauer gnose anyway and I still know nothing to Djem So Acceleration this time.

What an awesome document and thread! Just read through all of it over the past two days, points all 'round!

To some of the Masters and instructors: how do you practice sword or stick techniques on your own (without a sparring partner)?

Attacking moves and technique wouldn't be an issue but defensive moves and blocks are a little harder.

pleeeeeeease tell me someone has developed a form of vapaad

This is greatly informative!! thanks!!

This article is great. It's one of the reasons I got into the idea of sabre combat. I has great explanations of the various forms, their history, attitude, and practical applications. Kudos for posting it here, and some points.

Absolutely fantastic wright-up!
I'll be using this as a rough guideline for setting up my Academy.

@ luminousbeing.

I train on what I call a skeleton. Simply put, an immovable object. As for working defense without a partner, I would suggest " shadow boxing ". This will not teach you things like yielding, sensing pressure/energy etc, but it is a starting point. Not to mention it is, in my opinion, becoming a lost art. That being said, many different schools, including the one I teach at have the students shadow box.

I'll post a video so you can see the skeleton. I have quite a few but I'll put up the Kali workout. Primary focus on this was to stay medium speed and work heaven six. I think at the end I did what we refer to as " checking the gun. "
http://youtu.be/EoRNWsL-6sE

Thank you so much for this! It's very informative! ;)

Thank you .  may the force be with you always.

Thank you, guys.

To celebrate six years since I'd written that paper, I decided to go back to the material and do more with it. The result is The Snark Side of The Force, a blog about the lightsaber combat community and all that goes in with it. Follow the site to be kept up on updates on the Seven Forms and things that affect the saber community as a whole:

https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/ (https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/)

Thanks!!!! And duly followed  ;D

Saw it on FB first, glad I've been directed here as well!
Looking forward to all of it!

Im not really sure what else to say but wow! this is so awseome and very informative. Its given me much to think about and consider in my own pursuit in Lightsaber combat/duelling. ive just been loving every word and feeling very excited and inspired by the wealth of knowledge and information! ...its so true that we are essentially wielding giant glow sticks lol (or flash lights as ive come to look at them at times...but really cool flashlights :) ), though in the end to us, they are Lightsabers and at least from us deserve our respect in what they are...weapons (makes me think of Airsoft and firearms in that regards)... along with respect to our peers and fellow enthusiasts. (be it Jedi, Sith, Gray or Dark). Its a fun and interesting hobby and a great community and im coming to love and enjoy it all more and more. :) Im sooo glad ive got a month off work starting in a few days, then i can really sit down and start working on myself before i intorduce it to my own team/group later on.

New person here, and very interested in this topic. I've practised a wide variety of not-quite lightsaber-related disciplines over the years, ranging from weapon-based martial arts to dancing with various flaming or otherwise luminous toys.

In martial arts, LARP and re-enactment fighting (the style I learned was somewhere between stage and LARP fighting), I generally follow a philosophy akin to the Dark Side in general, and Juyo in particular. I allow my emotions to become a part of my form, and to guide my actions as much as the techniques I trained in. This attitude definitely didn't begin before learning the philosophy of the Dark Side, but it began before there was any real information about lightsaber forms, and LONG before I did any research about them. I probably took some of my enjoyment of Star Wars and my appreciation for the Sith into my lessons. As my signature says, though, it isn't JUST anger, I work with a full spectrum of emotions.

I found this discourse, and the following discussions, to be very interesting and informative. Thanks to everyone involved, and especially to Uilos for creating the work which prompted this discussion.

In my experience, the majority of skilled practitioners of ANY martial art will adapt the techniques they're taught to suit themselves. It can be as simple as a personalised sequence of actions you never see anyone else perform, or as complex as a seemingly-unique "signature" technique that they've created or modified based on the lessons they've learned. As a beginner form, it makes sense for Shii-Cho to be the only lightsaber form that can be truly codified into a specific set of techniques with clear purpose. Other styles are much more dependent on the individual wielding them. Many techniques will take on properties of the wielder, and need to be performed differently as a result. Some will be better-suited to specific wielders. This can reasonably be expected to result in significant variation in appearance and style even between practitioners of the same form. Shien and Djem-So are both technically "the same" form, but they are distinctive styles, both physically and philosophically.

My light saber combat is vapaad and I use it with a double light saber p.s I'm a Jedi

Wow Must say some of the members on this site has shared some great insight!! Great Reading material and concepts to digest!

I get an error 404 when I click on the Dropbox link. Can this be fixed?

OCD Kirby. Working on a fix. In the mean time, look to my blog "Snark Side of the Force" where I have updated articles on each Form and more:


thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com

It's due to Dropbox removing the public folder and switching over to shared links.

The "Snark Side of the Force" articles are some of my favorite material on the web concerning the Lightsaber Forms.

In particular, the Niman and Shien (w/ Darth Nonymous) articles are my favorite, due to the gray area surrounding these "difficult to pinpoint" forms. Niman really speaks to me. It's essentially the Master Level version of Starting Over at the beginning but with Experience and Calculation on your side. The Shien article was my favorite. Mobile, versatile, encompassing the basics of Djem So, and utilizing unique grips and stances.

Very cool set of reads on that page.

AoH

I got a 404  error  Not found on your url that you linked.. is there an updated URL?? 

So. Funny Story.

I didn't have a copy of the .pdf any more. Ten years worth of computers, and at least two different editions later meant I didn't have the original file. And then, because one of you blessed maniacs saved it and put it on a file share service, I was able to track down a copy.

So respect.

Here's a new link. This is the ORIGINAL, created over ten years ago (yikes!), it has since been refined in the posts from The Snark Side of the Force, and may yet be refined in to something new along the line. But for now, the original 7 Forms Discourse:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfj7mlev28yeir2/Seven%20Forms%20of%20Lightsaber%20Combat%3A%20A%20Discourse.pdf?dl=0&fbclid=IwAR14niXeFIJRE-xn3MnwdlKMwWfIM9lPgorcygUthrSRsHsVIwiq7YN_jTQ (https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfj7mlev28yeir2/Seven%20Forms%20of%20Lightsaber%20Combat%3A%20A%20Discourse.pdf?dl=0&fbclid=IwAR14niXeFIJRE-xn3MnwdlKMwWfIM9lPgorcygUthrSRsHsVIwiq7YN_jTQ)

MTFBWY

Wow, thanks for sharing, will be a nice read in the near future!

Glad to hear you managed to track it down!

  May I say, having read much of this thread, many of those who participated have much wisdom and experience. Truly, this is the topic that called out to me, incentivizing joining in over mere observation. It's originator (Master Ulios) is indeed a martial artist deserving of the Star Wars universe equivalent of a "high degree" blackbelt (ergo his title of Master). Seeking to understand and expand on a fighting style is awful. Given time to pour over the breadth of knowledge offered, this is still surely a life's work. For as they say knowledge is power. But that is the majesty of pure martial arts. Perpetual growth and evolution. Though, I see an inevitable path of evolving into a true combat form, the original intent was stage performance. The Dark Side calls toward conflict, albeit controlled conflict if reasonable. Thus I've gained some of my most meaningful progressions of my personal style through "free sparing" with rivals, mentors, or friends. So this is a greater focus for me than solely demonstrations; in the long run. I'd love to communicate here with any who share Sith Ideology of combat applied to these forms, or personally adapted styles of the like. To me this whole topic is beautiful, wonderful, and must now be consumed and digested; to do what all nourishment should... Provide power. But, a meaningful thank you for this all being offered freely. I can only hope to one day have something meaningful to contribute as well.
     [As a disclaimer I have more than a decade worth of training in MA and MMA with/without weapons. Surety, safety, trust, all must be established before a real spar. I also have full armor. Novices should NEVER do so, especially without supervision.]

   While reading the Discourse, a question arose regarding Form Zero. Although I possibly lack knowledge of source material, and it's simply addressed elsewhere, I shall ask the question anyway. It doesn't truly directly relate to the VII Forms (since no light saber is involved) but may fall within Form 0. So, it is written that it " the most sensible Form Zero focuses on diffuse attacks using peaceful negotiations and The Force." on page 7 at the bottom. While it stresses "peaceful" since much of the source material is Jedi texts, I feel the application is likely more broad? Light Side mind tricks, force persuasion, disabling droids or weaponry frying circuits, OR force pushing someone off a ledge/cliff/into ocean/out an airlock, stasis fields/impenetrable Force barriers. Now the real heart of my inquiry... Dark Side Force Powers: Dominate Mind, Sith Sorcery inducing madness/ Destroy Mind, Lightning, Draining Life/ Death Fields, Force Choke. Thus arises my true inquiry, is it still Form 0 if not peaceful but instead one sided dominance, subversive tactics, or cloaking one's intention then striking out through the Force? I would be pleased to hear if this is fitting or too broad an interpretation of Form 0; from Master Ulios or others whom hold a deeper understanding of this Form.

Dark Side Form 0 would be using intimidation, manipulation, diversion and cunning. Don't be as hung up on the powers, so much as the general action. Form 0 is asking if activating the disco stick of death is required in this moment. A light sider will ask if it has come to this, a dark sider will ask if violence is worth it to them in that moment.

   There are enough literary examples of this for me to see what you are getting at. Conflict for the sake of conflict or unnecessary death serving no immediate purpose is often what many sucessful Sith had to learn to avoid. I still question limited applications of Force that look like Form 0 to my eye though. Obviously NOT an example in the movies when lightning its redirected back to cause damage with a lightsaber, but in a fantastic book a non-combat oriented Jedi Master uses no blade. He traps a Sith Lord inside a barrier with his own lightning almost destroying him. Heck, Yoda redirects it/ deflects it out of his palm with the force. I feel like a dog who wont let go of a bone, but I guess I thought I was onto something. Unless you're hinting at this being more Sokan, I create lightning>That is now part of the environment> Now my opponent used it against me? Though the entire written work that started this topic is still something I'm mulling over, I completed 1 read, it's surely factored into reanalyzing my own style. Blending MA movements and concepts learned into a flowing collective that's adaptable (with my nature) leaned toward improvised Juyo without my knowing. Now I keep looking for weaknesses to refine it, or prevent potential flaws being integrated in.  I appreciate the work that went into the Discourse, and the speedy reply. Also that you recovered a copy after it's loss. May the Force Serve You Well Master Jedi.

The heart of Form Zero is no violence at all unless as a last resort. There is no technique about it, only ethics.

  Yes, what I feared, just a concept my Sith wired brain had/has trouble accepting.

I see. I like this. I have a background in Tae Kwon Do, and my Grandmaster taught that the best fight is the one that never happened. I feel that this would be the heart of From 0? Even in a more "extreme" (self-sacrificing to a degree) example than using intimidation or diversion or persuasion to avoid a physical altercation, one could argue that even taking a hit to your ego and/or reputation in the eyes other people to de-escalate and walk away from a potential fight would be implementing Form 0? Walking away from a fight even if it means looking like a coward to people watching. Although I suppose this requires one to place little value on their ego and reputation, at least in regards to people who would be so easily swayed in their opinion of you based on an unnecessary fight.

   Sir, I'd have to agree with you. That kind of wisdom is the root of the concept, I just tried hard to expand on it. For better or worse, seeing what COULD fit under the umbrella, rather than just viewing the umbrella. I mainly agree because that ideology you're talking about becomes more and more important the more you learn in MA. If you keep gaining potentially dangerous skill and never learn to keep yourself in check... You become a deadly weapon with no safety switch. A powder keg, that can (and likely will) explode hurting somebody. Or run into a "bigger fish" that might teach you the hard way. Good you internalized his wisdom. My Master also ingrained that belief, the hard part (I've found IMO) is living it. Because then you must live with successes and failures of adherence. A failure being potentially much more haunting than a bruised ego.

Pretty much this, yes.

One of the things I try to teach is the mentality of people who would wield these weapons (I am not a Jedi Realist, just someone who researches warrior ethos). You have to accept that when you draw these weapons, someone may die. Some day, that person may be you. That's a powerful responsibility to give someone. And what I interpret to be a warrior is someone who would understand that choice and commit to it completely, and accept the consequences.

It's also one of the reasons the most dangerous people I know are the ones less likely looking to get in to a fight. What the hell do they have to brag about?

I hope this helps.

Just passing through again to add the voice of another Sith lightsaber user here. Form 0 is an interesting topic, and there's a couple of important aspects, so I'll just share my view on the matter. Obviously, as with any interpretation of a concept from a fictional work, there's room for alternative interpretations. The basic idea here is that the Forms are how you fight, and Form 0 is the "non-form" of avoiding the fight. So with that in mind, lets look closer:

In terms of philosophy, the Jedi applications of Form 0 are about "I don't want to fight" and match the more self-defense oriented styles of martial arts. The best fight is the one that doesn't happen. Avoiding conflict is better than winning conflict. Finding a friend is better than defeating an enemy. Others have explained this in suitable depth already, so I'll move on to the alternative position.

The Sith focus less on Form 0, because the 7 forms are explicitly methods of CONFLICT, and Form 0 isn't just the non-use of a lightsaber, but the non-use of VIOLENCE to achieve an end. The use of powers in combat is referenced throughout many texts about the 7 forms, with some forms noted as being more or less likely to incorporate certain powers. The kinds of Force powers used would more likely define which of the 7 forms you're using the power as an extension or representation of, than to indicate the use of Form 0, even when no saber is being weilded. This doesn't, however, remove the non-form that is Form 0 as a tool for the Sith. Stealth is important. Manipulation, chaos and confusion are often best accomplished not just without a blade, but often also without direct aggression. Sometimes an application of the Force can be used indirectly to create the situation you want. Sometimes a ritual or Force-based action can redirect suspicion away from the Sith. The Sith take on Form 0 is when you make that approach against your enemies. The times where you're staying in the shadows, using your powers NOT to hurt the enemy directly, but to deceive them and keep them chasing shadows. Dominating a neutral party can lead the real enemies into a conflict which keeps them from interfering with your plans. Using the Force to sabotage something and make it look like an innocent party is the Sith spy. Simply doing what Palpatine is so well known for, and concealing your Force powers from the view of any prying minds can be a powerful part of the Sith application of Form 0. Instead of being unwilling to fight, the Sith use of Form 0 is knowing when a fight will compromise your goal instead of contributing to it. There is no compulsion to avoid fighting for the sake of peace, but there are times where you'll avoid one fight to make another battle more productive.

And in terms of real-world applications, both kinda of Form 0 are valid. The use of diplomacy and politeness and trying to de-escalate a fight are more likely to fit the Jedi approach to form 0. The use of distractions and diversionary tactics can be both, depending on the nature of such things. The use of scapegoats or outright threats and intimidation lean more toward the Sith ideal of the non-form. Tricking your enemies into fighting one another is something both Jedi and Sith have been known to do, but the Jedi do it because they don't want to fight, while the Sith will step in at the end and destroy both when they're too weak to fight back.

@ Obliviondoll: I appreciate a more adequate reflection/interpretation of my earlier query and attempted insights.

I'm too combat minded at times to equate the tactics that come to mind properly perhaps. I would not want to dissent from Master Ulios too terribly philosophically, considering I highly regard his accomplished works and opinions in general. I simply hoped my initial insight had some merit or relative accuracy within the ideology of Form 0. While understanding the entirety of my assertions may very well have been far from a "bulls-eye" in hitting the mark of Form 0, I didn't feel I missed the target entirely... Although my limited understanding may be finite, and the theoretical applications previously listed a slight twisting of the Form, that's kind of a representation of Sith ideology. For lack of a better term a "pure" Sith would have more of a tendency to do so. Leaving me at a loss to determine success or failure in embracing vs evolving the ideology. If trying to talk in terms of right and left lateral limits of the concept, I simply attempted to explore and push the boundary as far left or right as possible; to see if I was still in bounds, fell off the edge of the earth, or instead discovered new ground to stand on. Again I respect and contemplate upon the discourse in training with my lightsaber. If only to to better understand myself and the particulars of my own fighting style. Trying to see where I am and where I'm headed in more than just physical actions as my technique evolves. Seeking out guidance or supplemental wisdom of those with greater experience in realms other than my own. I truly appreciate Master Ulios (and other Masters) receipt of and responses to my inquiries or reflections upon my assertions. For I would be less without such valuable input.

Sounds like some Sun Tzu Art of War type strategy, where sometimes winning a battle, even if you easily have the power to, is not always the best strategy to win the war.

My Tai Kwon Do teacher always preached Courtesy, Integrity, Indominable Spirit and Believing in yourself. He also preached following your own path. All of these are vital in a Jedi and in life in general.  He said that anyone can learn to kick and punch, but not everyone can learn to follow their own path.

Since I am rather impatient and impulsive I think that Form V specifically Djem So suits me best. Also since I favor strength over speed. I prefer to take direct action rather than sneaking around.

Anyone else getting a 404 on the Dropbox link to the doc?

Did you try the link re-posted half way down on page 15 of this topic? Go back one page and try that one, it just worked for me when I double checked it. It's the longer hyperlink from Master Ulios.

For form 6 Ninan, because of it being the moderation form, I know that it used only so many moves at a time from each of the first five forms. But does it use heavy moves as well as basic moves, or just basic moves?