Saber Forum

Hello!

I am a HEMA instructor who teaches medieval sword and buckler fighting as well as German Longsword. I also teach a British singlestick course and have practiced a ton of military saber (specifically Scottish Baskethilt). Swordfighting has always been intriguing to me but what intrigues me equally is lightsaber combat. I thought it would be fun to start exploring the art and what better place than to start here?

I am completely new to this and eager to learn. Are there books or webpages I can go to learn more about the actual combat styles? In all honesty, this is more exploratory and who knows where it will wind up. What I would really like is for more tournaments to go to. HEMA and Singlestick tournaments can be few and far between.

Welcome! I'm also a HEMA instructor, teaching Bolognese swordsmanship, Italian military sabre, and walking cane.

Basically, you already know what there is to know - you'll probably beat most (pure) saberists out there relying on singlestick alone. Combine it with longsword and there is not much that will be missing.

What makes lightsabering interesting are the possibilities. There are no sources to adhere to, no ancient teachings, no doctrines. You can just absorb what is useful and discard what is not.

 

Great to meet you! So are thrusts allowed? I saw rules against fighting with one hand.

in certain clubs they are, others they aren't. In the league I'm in, point attacks and point-in-line attacks are not allowed. mainly because we don't want to wear a crazy amount of armor.

We allow them - but without handguard, thrusting is not really the go-to technique. Mostly results in double-hits - and I HATE double-hits.  ;D

So how do tournaments rule double-hits? One set of rules I saw said first hit wins. I’m much more interested in reducing doubles wherever possible.

There's quite a lot of different rule-sets out there (just as there are a lot of different rule-sets for HEMA).
My club (SaberAcademy Vienna) uses a ruleset, where doubles score normal for both opponents, but you are allowed only 2 doubles per match. The third means a lost match for both.

Looking at tournament fights from different schools, it looks a lot like in HEMA five years ago: blade-fishing and hand-sniping, wild bashing, lurking and catapult-fencing... it's all there.  ;)

The greatest strength of lightsabering is also its greatest weakness IMHO. The fun-factor is so high, that quite a lot of people fight without basic skill. It's just a plastic tube, after all...

Interesting. I like your doubles rule. We use the same one for singlestick as well but doubles award no points. As someone who has always been in favor of “beat your opponent anyway you can” I’m all for hand-swipes and catapult fencing.  Maybe that’s because they are easy to deal with once you practice it lol.

Thanks for all the great info! I really appreciate it.

So how does the blade and hilt work for ultra saber? Does the blade go through the handle?

As with all manufacturers I've experience with, the blade is inserted about 2" into the hilt and pressed in with a retention screw. Holds up good.
The thing gets really funny when used in our tournamen-rules we took over from our HEMA-club: First rounds are fought on a placed vs. received count with weighted hit-locations, so doubles can mean you're not making it to the second round of fights. ;)

So where do I find a list of tournaments and where can I find clubs?

Also, what is a good hilt for one or two hands?

In my limited experience, any UltraSabers hilt in the $70 to $100 can be easily used 1 handed or 2 handed. The Dominix V4 is almost a hand 1/2. With formal dueling, a 36" Ultra Edge Heavy Duty blade is normal, since it offsets the normal length to weight ratio in normal Bokken. (the heavier denser polycarbonite tube is not to the weight a metal blade would be, but the hollow hilt is also much lighter then a formal sword hilt would be).

Myself, I use 32" blades, but i'm shorter than norm. I do not have formal training though, so your uses will be different than mine.

The Dominix and Aeons seem like favorites among enthusiastic dualists. The Sentinal would be another one large enough for one and two hands.

I don’t have as many sabers as some folks here, but I can tell you the baseline of US really are great designs for comfort of spinning without a lot of things projecting out to get in the way. The US slogan of being the combat specialists is really apparent once you get your hands on one of these. Also, the pictures online really do not do them justice.  There is an elegant aesthetic to these sabers you really have to experience first hand.

My personal preference is to switch out most low profile pommels I’ve seen on their baseline sabers with something that adds a little more character. And for the Initiates and Apprentices, the addition of the new pommel gives it enough length for two hands (unless you have hands the size of a Christmas ham), but those are mainly single-handed sabers with the smaller pommels they come with. Good for spinning because they are very light, but would lack the length and weight for heavier dueling unless you invest in a more beefy pommel capable of adding 1 1/2-2 inches to their length, IMHO. But you’ll see you have a very functional saber with any of these models. Just be sure to make the choice that’s right for you based on your intended uses and you’ll be very happy with your purchase. The fact everyone here keeps coming back for more is the strongest testimony on that score  :)

Thank you for all of the feedback!

I wound up getting two sentinels. I suspect I’ll fight one-handed predominately due to my military saber and sword and buckler background. However I wanted the option to also fight with two hands because most of the people in my club do Longsword and I suspect (and hope) they will be interested in joining me in learning.

Finally had a chance to do some real sparring earlier this week. My HEMA group had a good time and we had some questions we wanted to ask:

1. We noticed that binding often times lead to the blade slipping and hitting the opponent’s hand. Do most people in tournaments use tsubas or is there a way around this? Is there a style that avoids binding all together that has seen success?

2. One armed combat really didn’t seem to work out for us. Often times our arms or hands would get sniped. It definitely shows our reliance on complicated hilts (like baskethilt) when it comes to one handed swords. Seems most videos show everyone using two hands as well. Is it right to say that in most situation two hands are better than one?

3. How do you control your opponents blade? Often times we relied on passing steps to find an opening. Without a reliable way to bind it turned into a lot of cuts and circling (more like Singlestick but two handed weapons)

4. Any books on fighting styles or articles that y’all would recommend? Treating the lightsaber like a longsword didn’t quite workout because of the reliance on binding. I’ve dug up some of my old quarterstaff books to see if that helps as well.

Thanks in advance for the information!

Also, in tournaments, do people use stunt sabers or ones with sound?

From most of my time researching this, most lightsaber combat is touch/release/return, not binding like with swords. More like formal dueling, where the first touch scores, not combat like in medieval combat.

Most lightsaber use NOT in the movies is 2 handed, better control/response from what i've seen. If you watch the prequels, most of the stances start with 1 hand, but rapidly revert to 2 handed combat. Most of the binding you see is for dramatic effect, so the combatants can dialogue. First touch is usually the only touch, since Anakin loses an arm, Obi-wan get tapped into the upper arm and leg and is disabled. In the original movies, the tendency is to lose by limb loss, the hand, but that's also dramatic effect to show how the son paths' like the father does.


Most you tube lightsaber combat i've watched they use stunt sabers. Less to go wrong and easier to repair/replace if damaged. Choreographed fights are mostly the same with stunts, but some do use sound for effects. Pre-filmed combat scenes usually have effects added in later, so probably stunts for the choreography here too. Also, batteries last alot longer without pushing power to drive sounds.

Of course, there are people who stylize 2 lightsabers and some do saberstaffs, like Palpatine's Guards or double bladed sabers, like Mauls' from the movie. The problem i've experienced with these 3 types is that the 2 sabers limits your offensive strength, because your opponent only has to break your concentration to make a touch, with the double bladed sabers your technique becomes predictable and you usually get struck in the middle where the blades don't protect you. Saberstaff is a bit different though, since you're more like a pike or halberd where you have alot of reach, but if you do that and try to be realistic, if there's a hit on the saberstaff, it usually disables the weapon, leaving you defenseless. 

I find through my years of experience that this is the opposite. Two sabers = superior Offense and Defense. Especially against one saber. The most famed Japanese Swordsmen was a dual wielder. 61 duels straight! Officially at least. Makes you wonder how many Musashi cut down total.  ( note: I am not a Japanese sword fighter.....I am a Filipino Sword fighter. )

Sorry, I should have stated "lightsaber" not saber or bladed saber.  I am in no way a skilled practitioner of any type sword or lightsaber combat/technique though. I'll leave that discussion for more experienced saber enthusiasts.  It's just my take it requires more experience to dual wield than with 1.

I meant lightsaber as well. We spar a lot in the group I run. One thing I will say for sure, everything comes down to personal preference and training time in. Was just my take on it :)

Great feedback!

I tried to treat the lightsaber like a baskethilt broadsword. No luck. Then as a messer or arming sword. No luck. One handed just didn’t quite work out.

I’ve picked up a couple books. One is Musashi’s and the other is a beginner guide to Kendo. Hopefully they will help me out.

Do you all use tsubas?

First of all: a lightsaber is a stick. It has no edges, so it cannot bind without sliding, it has no handguard, so you cannot catch a blade there.

You don't need to resort to an Asian method to fight, though, and you definitely don't need a tsuba. You just have to change your game.

When you fight one-handed, you have to rely on double-time play (as you should do with saber or singlestick): parry-riposte. Single-time actions will get your hand hit more often than not.

I've got hit on the hand a lot in the beginning, but by now, those hits become less and less frequent. Mostly they happen, when I misjudge an attack and "parry" with my hand instead of the blade.

Philosophy and common sense will not improve your fighting in a direct way.  ;)

Get yourself a book on Canne the Combat - this will probably help more with one-handed sabering.

Probably a lot less. Historical records about him are rather scarce and most is myth and legend. When it comes to historical proof, Fiore dei Liberi has more proven duels, I believe.
I use a stunt in training, but a saber with sound in sparring.  ;) More fun with sabers clashing and humming.

As Master A indicated, The Five Rings is more a manual for thinking than a combat tutorial.  Many Kendo concepts are very applicable to light saber combat as the shinai is very similar in length and weight to an ultra saber.  The Kendo basics of footwork, striking, parries, attacks and counters are a great foundation (as are many other sword traditions).  Also as Kendo is not only a traditional martial art but also "sportified", it is relevant to those that participate in scoring clubs/leagues/tournaments (I do not). But as I am sure most will tell you, it is extremely difficult to learn sword fighting techniques from even the best of books. 
I almost always use a tsuba for heavy (two-handed) sparring as I enjoy the continued use of my oppossable thumbs.   

Oh come on! We are using light sabers here, who doesn't want to have a little faith in myth and legend?!?!?! :)

Yeah. Not really being able to bind really threw me off. And the balance of the hilt and blade really felt weird when using singlestick techniques. On a much brighter note, this gives me the excuse to own more books about swordsmanship :D

Any recommendations on Canne de Combat book?

Sadly only in French, Italian and German. But there are a lot of tutorial vids out there, which I would recommend, as some of those movements are not really intuitive and really hard to understand from written text.

Not when it comes to steel. Sorry, HEMA trainer here.  ;D
That's why I picked up lightsabering - NOT having to think about historical accurateness for once.  ;)

Purely  a matter of taste, but I differ here. Kendô, as it is practiced today, will provide a foundation to lightsaber only, if one strives to fight like Obi-Wan in Ep. IV.  ;) For a more dynamic way of fighting, other methods are preferable, especially those that actively work on creating openings instead of waiting for one to present itself.
And, of course, using only one "edge" on a lightsaber leaves out a lot of possible ways to utilize the weapon.  ;)

Funny, as the primary function of a tsuba is not to protect against incoming cuts, but to stop your hands to slide off the hilt and onto the blade.

I started because I needed more excuses to compete in tournaments lol The sound of steel colliding and the ability to bind narrowly beats out the hum of a lightsaber. But longswords and Messers do not function as flashlights too.  :P

Now if only there was a lightsaber equivalent to sword and buckler......

If you're fighting with the I.33 method, you won't like it, anyway. Without binding, this method just doesn't work. Being a Bolognese fencer, I always love to fight I.33 people - they get so frustrated when I don't let them bind my blade... ;D

My 50 cents to the discussion:
1. I totally agree that lightsabers (at least ones from the real world) are really bad in a bind, to a degree we even teach our students to be ready to disengage rather than to try to fight in a bind, 'cause results are totally unpredictable.
2. With heavy grade blade momentum of inertia of a lightsaber is quite high so most techniques that require you to manipulate your blade really fast are impossible to properly perform. Also, hilts are thick and do not have quillons to put your index finger on that means no proper tramazzone can be done (I may be wrong here but I can not match speed and elegance of the sidesword with a lightsaber). You can perform much better with mig-grade blades but they are prone to failures (I had one blade lost its cap in the middle of a fight).
3. Bolognese fencing works great even without hand protection provided by a sidesword's complex handguard. Of course one should be more cautious when parrying with quardia di faccia for example but for the most part there are no problems at all.
4. My personal style is based on Bolognese techniques with some La Verdadera Destreza mixed in. Taking proper angulo recto stance is a great way to make the opponent think twice about rushing in on you :). Circular steps are also quite handy if you want to ruin his offensive plans. After watching some military sabre videos I've also found myself using guardia di testa (in del'Agocchi's interpretation) quite extensively as a defensive stance.
5. As for Asian techniques I switch to kenjutsu when my weapon hand becomes tired. It is obviously easier to manipulate a sword with two hands and jōdan-no-kamae stance when maintained properly lets you give rest to your forearms while at the same time being able to deliver extremely fast cut (and looking menacing as hell that is also quite important :)).

Happens also with HG.  ;)
Destreza relies heavily on binding, though. Fighting the spanish guys is harder, though, as they are really good at using angles and slipping...
Oh, no problem here. But practicing Martinelli's cane helps a lot.  ;)

As for menacing as hell (which I agree is quite important), I still feel most intimidating in basic Chūdan-no-kamae...
(http://buffalolightsabertraining.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/shii-cho1.jpg)

So what is the best way to find a list of tournaments?

I don't think there is one, as most are kind of internal-club affairs. The only OPEN tournament I know of is in Paris in June - but then I'm sitting in Europe.  ;)

The Paris event becomes very big with duelists from all Europe ...

Can you give us a link to the event?

Of course ;)

They have a Facebook : https://m.facebook.com/events/1288768264588475/

Sorry for double posting ;)

For canne material, canneTV is a good place as they try to provide English comments
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCay4t4AcCbuAMEF-OlBQPCA

Many thanks!

You are welcome ;)