spinning around in saber combat

[Master Lucien Kane]

I'm not sure how some of you feel about Wushu, I for one am a fan, I find the style aesthetically pleasing, not to mention when applied properly it's deadly as heck.

Watch this Wushu straight sword set...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ76jX_KCfE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ76jX_KCfE</a>

Understanding that yes this is a form, much like a kata. If you think one of these girls couldn't get a spin in on you in a saber match though I think you might be a little delusional.

These martial arts forms do spins for a reason, and they've been around for many years. It's all been debated, but don't say it isn't practical, when there are ancient styles of martial arts that still do it to this day.

I know I know sport fighting has taken the martial arts world by storm, however Kung Fu, and Wushu have remained largely unchanged when taught by credible teachers.

[Master Lucien Kane]

Sorry to beat a dead horse but...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_jQZy9fCbY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_jQZy9fCbY</a>

also another sparring set... Look at how fast they move, yes this is choreographed. However they train to this standard, if this young woman gets into the unlikely event that someone is actually trying to kill her with a spear. I think she might be able to handle herself.

My double posting point is that spinning has it's application. If you want to use it, learn how to use it properly... If not you aren't missing out, your form will not suffer or anything. You just don't prefer spins and that's fine...

I just don't like it when people pidgeonhole what is and isn't viable in a fight.

[Ultra]

If spinning was completely impractical, then why are they still used in football to escape a tackle? 

Seriously, tho, for empty-hand martial arts, I think spinning has obvious benefits and applications since the pro's employ it.  George Saint Pierre still uses spinning back kicks to this day and Shonie Carter's spinning back fist knock out on Matt Serra is legendary.

For sword fighting, well... not so sure.  I have never seen spinning techniques used in high level Kendo competition.  The strikes are just so damn quick, spinning would be pretty hard to pull off.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMxlqayAwG8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMxlqayAwG8</a>

[Master Nero Attoru]

Well put Ultra.

Considering the fact that swordsmanship and empty-hand martial arts are based on many of the same ideas, but still substantially different, I would say spinning is one of those things that would be risky but useful.  Not many swordsmen would use it, but the ones that do would have the advantage of using an unorthodox technique which breaks up timing and therefore decreases predictability.

I'm gonna say it's one of those "unpractical until you practice it a WHOLE lot, after which it becomes useful" kinda things basically.  Lucien is a fan of those - a while back we had a pretty long debate about fighting multiple opponents which was rather interesting, and he took the side that it is very possible for those who train towards that end.  Work at a move enough, learn the timing and execution, and just about anything can really become useful in certain situations.

[raynefall]

As mentioned above there are practitioners who have employed  spinning techniques to good effects in empty hand.  I would argue that while techniques in empty hand and weapon training share some elements they are only partially related.  With empty hands the larger animal usually wins ( same as the animal world folks ) Now don't get all tiffy, and start spouting examples of Bruce lee or you favorite martial icon.  There is a reason why we have weight class's in combative sports IE. boxing, MMA etc.  But when you start to add weapons in our case swords, this rule of thumb is kinda negated. Now you ask what the heck does this have to do with spinning with swords?  The relevance is that you don't need to spend the extra effort and time ( yes i know you can spin fast) to achieve the desired results.  In the time it takes you to spin, a moderately good fencer can extend his arm,minor lunge and punch 2 holes in you.  Sorry the instructor in me kinda came out there..........The point should be that yes you can perform a spinning attack and with practice it will be fast and look impressive, but can you achieve the same result ( defeating your opponent ) in a quicker and more efficient manner!


Raynefall

[Master Lucien Kane]

I've done both Fencing and Kenjutsu, so I'm really not just coming from left field here. Now I don't spin in Fencing, even in free form fencing. One you're wearing a helmet. Your view is slightly restricted so spinning becomes difficult because of restricted mobility. Two You're fighting in a straight line, so all of the sudden things get moved in closer together. My movements have been restricted to only a couple of avenues of approach. Same with Kendo, you're wearing armor, I'm not going to be able to evade attacks quite as well as I can without armor on. It really makes a big difference.

Now if you watch Kung Fu, Tai Chi, and Wushu style sword play. There is a lot of spinning my guess is that is because of their placed importance on foot work and evasive maneuvers. I'm not just going to spin blindly and hope for the best. My spin is a tactical calculation, usually an evasive maneuver, or a means to break rhythm. If I'm dueling multiple opponents I use the spin to keep my bearings between two fighters. They are both trying to maneuver me in a way where they can both engage me at the same time. If I let them do that I'm screwed, the spin helps me stay ahead of my attackers.

I really don't mean to be confrontational! I just want to make sure there's a better understanding of swords. A lightsaber is not a rapier or a katana. It can mimic any of those sword styles which is why it's awesome. I do apologize if I'm truly offending anyone. I respect everyone's opinions here I just don't always agree. lol

[Master Nero Attoru]

I really don't mean to be confrontational! I just want to make sure there's a better understanding of swords. A lightsaber is not a rapier or a katana. It can mimic any of those sword styles which is why it's awesome. I do apologize if I'm truly offending anyone. I respect everyone's opinions here I just don't always agree. lol

I for one don't see you being confrontational at all.  We respect your opinion, especially since you voice it in such a respectful and well-reasoned way.  The fact that you have serious martial arts experience gives your argument added weight.

For an online argument, this thread is really quite civil in fact.  A few individuals sharing their own experience-based opinions on a topic, nothing more.  Keep it this way and we'll get plenty of intelligent conversation out of it!

[Master Lucien Kane]

Thanks, I try to make sure I am as respectful as possible, but I believe that many people feel the same way but wouldn't disagree with some of the resident masters on the forum because well... they're masters. So since I have a decent amount of martial arts experience I like to add my two credits in because there is more to saber combat than just fencing or kendo, or kenjutsu. I've pulled some of my influence from many different arts like gladius styled fighting and even some of the Chinese arts.

My formal training with a sword is limited to Kenjutsu. From which I learned a lot, I've also learned fencing informally, however I did get told I had a natural predisposition of a fencer. I'm fast and deceptive, these things help.

The rest of my martial arts history comes from Shorin Ryu, and Marine Corps Martial Arts. I learned a lot of weapons in Shorin Ryu, but they are traditional weapons no swords.  
 
So admittedly 85% of my sword career has been self taught, trial and error. Early on I made up for what I didn't know with my speed, strength, and intuition. Now that I've combined those experiences with some formal training it has made all the difference in the world.

A sound knowledge of tactics makes for all the difference in a free sparring match or "duel" If I know where to engage my opponent, and when I can move in certain ways. With a tactical mind you will spar in a way that looks very different from a formal match. At least that is what I have noticed.

[Stephen Strange]

I hear swordsmen quote the "Only turn your back to a corpse" line quite a bit.  They say this primarily because you can't see what's behind you, but they are swordsmen, not Jedi.  A Jedi doesn't need to see his opponent to fight them.  Remember Luke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owvpRNzoaVU#

Being able to stretch out with your feelings and being aware of everything around you alleviates one of the the apparent disadvantages of turning your back to an enemy in combat.

This remembers me of my Wing-Chun Chi-Soa training. Only that involves a way of physical contact blade to blade. Using the push and momentum you feel through the blade to determine what his move will be.. without ever needing to look. I did this training without weapons ofcourse... and with the dragon pole. But the dragon pole Chi-soa training applies to swords just as well.. and a such... light sabers. Which are still nothing else but 'real fancy' glowy sticks.

So it is completely possible to make two of those helmets as Luke wears here and have a 'blind' lightsaber battle.

[Stephen Strange]

I know I know sport fighting has taken the martial arts world by storm, however Kung Fu, and Wushu have remained largely unchanged when taught by credible teachers.

As one with over 6 years of Wing-Chun Kung-Fu done (abite years ago) I have to agree completely here. The chinese Kung-fu is based on speed and flowing movements. To move the body out of the direction of the blow or strike in such a way it seems like a rubber band. Turn away protecting the body and use the force of the opponents blow or strike against him is one of the core-principles in chinese kung-fu for as long as the style excists.

[Master Lucien Kane]

This remembers me of my Wing-Chun Chi-Soa training. Only that involves a way of physical contact blade to blade. Using the push and momentum you feel through the blade to determine what his move will be.. without ever needing to look. I did this training without weapons ofcourse... and with the dragon pole. But the dragon pole Chi-soa training applies to swords just as well.. and a such... light sabers. Which are still nothing else but 'real fancy' glowy sticks.

So it is completely possible to make two of those helmets as Luke wears here and have a 'blind' lightsaber battle.

I've been wanting to train in one of these types of martial arts styles... that being said I've done some "blind duels" it's challenging.