Saber Forum

I admit that there's not a lot of discussion value here, I just wanted to share experience. Last night, we had some household guests who are usually around regularly come over because they were bored, so we ended up breaking out the lightsabers. This isn't the first time, actually it's the second, and it's been a few months since the last time we did. The first time I did this I remember getting beat up pretty bad. I walked away with a few bruises and a nice gash across my hand.

Well, since then, I've gotten a couple more lightsabers, and I've been practicing regularly the first six forms (Shii-cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Djem-so/Shien, and Niman). I've been training with velocities(lightsaber kata that start slow and increasingly get faster until they're instinct) and just simple focus and exercise training. So last night was the first chance I had to put all that wasted time into practice.

While we weren't keeping score, we used a point system, A touch anywhere on the body is a point and a hit. Right off the bat, I started with Makashi and ended up cracking someone right across the jaw and making him do a double take with a seires of expletives, and making me take a second look at myself. Once he was recovered(He's fine, by the way), I switched to Soresu, somethimg less aggressive, and he used a lightsaber and a makeshift shield(Similar to the expanded lightsaber forms). I remained with a single saber and was able to block, parry, or lock nearly every strike, swing, or thrust that was thrown at me. By the end of the night, even though we weren't keeping score, we all agreed that roughly speaking, I came out on top by about 4 or 5 hits to every one the two of them got on me.

I was impressed, to say the least. I didn't think that any practice outside of sparring was really of any use, since velocities hardly every go through uninterupted and solo training can't teach you adapability. But to my suprise, it DOES teach adaptability, as well as focus, confidence, and determination. Solo practice should never be overlooked, it really is the basis of everything else.

Very nice experience. I think a lot of people need to consider this sort of thing. It is one thing of course going out there and swinging a saber around, but it is another when you actually have to think of when and how to swing, hah. On top of this note to everyone that is reading and perhaps maybe considering practicing some more, always think about what you have just done. Well, not really saying in the whole "OMG What did I just do!!!" sense, but the way you moved and perhaps certain aspects of your style that worked or didnt work. In battle, ShadowKatt over here maybe worked on different forms and during battle, perhaps finding better ways of attacking and defending during the battle itself. This is a great example of adapatability in a fight. Which also means leaving yourself open to ideas and room for improvement during sparring and even during training. I know this whole form thing can be really hard to understand at sometimes mostly due to the fact that there isnt much source material out there, well, at least from the movies and books. The fans have truly taken the saber up on this one and made it into something pretty great. But, the forms should get your mind going on ways to attack, defend, move, and essentially, think. But, all in all, I think this is a good story for people to think about, as well as a note of people who dont get to spar too much. Even though you may be alone, dont think it. Think of how you swing or move and visualize yourself moving and how you would move after, and so on. Also think about how your enemy would move and react to you, causing you to move a certain way. And like he said, practice practice practice.

I learned a lot from solo practice and velocities as well. If nothing else they keep you in shape, but one of the best effects is the confidence it can give you, which does go a long way in a battle. I've improved a lot just by practicing solo as often as I can.

Practice is invaluable, but it's also tempered well by knowledge.  At our local Con, I sparred with a fellow who's been doing kendo for YEARS, and not only did he kick my @$$ but he was able to break it down for me, and explain all of the little things I was doing wrong that allowed him to kick my @$$.  Sometimes it's little things you don't even consider or realize that you're doing, going into a duel, but...I guess what I'm getting at is that knowledge alone or practice alone won't carry you single-handedly.  It's all going to come down to a balance of experience and form, a balance of practice and knowledge.

I agree SJ. Saber combat is just like anything else, it takes practice as well as knowledge. Knowing how to do something does not always mean you can do it or are good at it. I.e., I know how to throw a curveball, but I can't actually do it.

Oooo... this is a great thread--LOTS of great comments, by JediKnightJMH, SJJedi, ShadowKatt, Darth Raze and... everyone!

I will certainly affirm and agree:

* NEVER underestimate "shadow boxing", i.e. practicing on your own -- it's important!!
* NEVER underestimate "brainwork", i.e. THINKING things through, imagining the techniques being performed and so forth... very important.
* CERTAINLY practice, share, learn and work with others... it's pretty bloody important.

Now, really... if you're goal is something like: "I wanna be good at saber sparring"... nothing gets you prepared for that + understanding it better than... actually sparring someone.  Actually you should spar MANY "someones"!  If at all possible, try to spar people whom you KNOW to be better than you, faster than you, taller than you, stronger than you...

Why.  Well what do you learn if you easily beat someone?  Little.  You gain practice, really.  What do you learn if you're a fairly even match?  A LOT!  Very very good challenge for you if you're evenly matched.  And... what do you learn if you spar/fence/fight someone who is WAAAAY better than you?  Still quite a bit, and in a very different way: you will see the minute errors (or LARGE errors!) in your technique, because they will constantly be exploited by the better fencer/fighter.

But yes... please DO NOT underestimate practicing on your own!  Your body has to commit to MUSCLE MEMORY of many, many, many actions--both attack & defense... and from there, you're hoping (praying? lol) to act on instinct.

I can attest to that Nova. When I joined the wrestling team in high school, I spent a lot of time "shadow drilling," as they call it(wrestling the invisible man basically). Did I get better from it? You bet.

When I wasn't doing that, I was often practicing with our heavyweight, who had about 1ft, and two weight classes on me, officially(Probably more). Again did I get better? Yes I did.

Even when I was practicing with someone the same size or smaller than me, they had been wrestling for years, whereas I was the new guy. They were better than me, and I got better for it.

Amen to that, Raze!!  :)  I'll say it again... THIS thread is full of some *GOOD* stuff.  To everyone, you listen, whoever is reading!!  heheh

Unfortunately, the guy that I played around with the other day now won't come back to play with me no more :P So I'm stuck practicing by myself again. Now that I know it will improve things, I don't feel like it's wasted effort, but it's just not as fun as having someone there to duel.

I'm amazed that I impressed someone with your credentials.



Not only is it not as fun, it's not as good. Like Nova and I said before, practicing by yourself is a great way to perfect a technique and commit movements to muscle memory, however it's no substitute for practicing with a partner. That's the only way you're going to develop things like reaction time and coordination(aim if sparing).

Again, to go back to my JV Wrestling days, I learned this the hard way. In wrestling we have a take down called a shot. It's the most efficient way to take your opponent down to the mat and gain the advantage. After practicing this move(and a few others) for my first few weeks both by myself and with a partner, it came time for my first match. As you can imagine I was excited, and a bit embarrassed by the spandex(not a particularly pretty sight! lol.) Long story short, I took my shot, my opponent sprawled(a reaction I had not yet encountered) and reversed my takedown. 1,2,3 it's over. It happened so fast...

My point is, I had never faced an opponent in a real match, at real match pace, who had reacted to my move the way he did. I got schooled, but I did learn from it and was prepared next time. As important as "shadow drilling" is, you won't learn certain things from it.

Wow. I never thought I could apply wrestling experiences to saber combat. Always learning are we....

I wonder if there are any saber dueling competitions. Anyone ever heard about something like that? A problem I had the last time I was dueling with someone was holding back. I've practiced a lot of velocities, strike combos of anywhere from 3-7 swings. However, I never got to use a single one of them, because the blows are fast, and they're hard, and the point of dueling, SPARRING, is to better yourself and enjoy it. I'm not sure how to really apply what I've done in practice regarding those velocities without injuring someone.

Funny that you mention it, Shadow, as... I'm hoping to (continue!) working on a sort of "sparring system" that will be a subset of this entire NCSCS project Caine and I have been working on.  This sparring system has actually been in the works for quite some time--I've been thinking about it ever since around 2009 or so...

Anyhow, I really haven't told anyone about it at this point... but Ultra now knows about it (as of maybe a week or two ago), and since you guys brought that kind of subject up, the point of my system will be to:

* Promote safety, fun, respect
* Standardize certain "gear specs"... including protective gear, but also specifying some details about hilts, blades, etc.
* Allow for unique & interesting setups for dueling (such as 2 vs. 1 "power duel", 2 on 2, etc.)
* Standardize a scoring system, but also allow for people to make "uniquely scored" matches, such as... IDK... 2 points for this target but 0 for that one... or even have "1 shot, 1 kill" matches...
* Possibly promote some kind of "online record keeping" where wins & losses can be kept track of... and of course, in the beginning it would be more "for fun", since it would (initially) be rare for people all over the nation to "compete together".  But who knows?  Maybe someday... something bigger could be arranged.  Hard to say.

More to come of all that later, though.  :)  I will at least say... I'm trying to keep things SIMPLE... yet fun & interesting... *AND* also fair + "covering all bases".  We don't want a system that is rife with holes where people could abuse it.  Such as leaving "blade type" and "blade length" open-ended... someone would walk in with a 60" blade and say "It ain't in the RULES, so too bad, I get to spar!!"... ya feel me?  :)  lol

Last thing I will say is... I don't condone ANY kind of sparring unless people understand the RISKS, take precautions to protect themselves, and ultimately accept responsibility for their own actions... and their own injuries!  Blaming others on where or how you get hit would be silly: it's SPARRING.  It ain't sewing, lol.

Don't want to get hit in the eye?  Here's a tip--don't say "hey, no head shots"... instead, REQUIRE FACEMASKS/HELMS.  The end.

Put it this way... until you AND your opponent... are *SOOOOOO* accurate that you can hit targets the size of a golf ball on cue/demand... and do so with pretty darn extreme accuracy... ...

...HOW CAN YOU EXPECT PEOPLE TO SIMPLY "AVOID HITTING THE HEAD"?!?  You cannot.

Further... most of the time, when I hit a target I didn't intend to hit... my opponent sort of accidentally found a way to "ride" or "glide" my weapon into said target area via THEIR weapon... because of their attempted PARRY.  Confusing the way I wrote it, I know... but those who have sparred know PRECISELY of what I speak.

Actually, the last time I dueled someone we basicly used the "One hit, one kill" scoring system. The only thing that didn't count as a hit was a hand, and we pretty well avoided the head. But I tend to agree with you, protection would be a good idea if you have it available.

And, yeah, about the whole "Parry" thing, I definitely know what you're talking about. We tended to use a lot of blade-locks when we were sparring, and I kept trying to parry them away from me to exploit an opening. Never quite worked the way I wanted to, and I never learned how.

Hey guys, i'm new here and this is a cool thread! Lots of stuff to think about. Certainly the thing i've gained from this thread is definately wear headgear!

Headgear is great. So is any other sort of protective equipment. Depend and how and who you duel, though.

About the whole scoring system thing. I have been working on a saber tournament as well. I have been looking at different sword fighting systems and competition rules and trying to make something that you would be able to morph into lightsaber fighting. It is going pretty well so far. I have worked on different zones and target areas, as well as the whole point thing for certain targets. I have also tried to work in different classes, so to speak. The higher the class, the more/less points for certain targets, as well as openning up targets as you progress in class. Your arm may be a target in one class, but may differ between forearm, bicep, wrist, and hand in another. Also trying to have coaches to actually monitor the duel to count the points. Then there is the "melee" free for all duel that we do which is pretty much one shot, one kill type of thing for everyone with a saber. That has worked pretty well in the past as well. But, again, still trying to work through the whole trial and error of it all and will hopefully get something good and efficient soon.

That sounds cool mastrnick. Please post video of this tournament if/when it occurs.

 that sounds awesome i would totally go to that tournament and i would think scoring it similar to the way epee fencing is scored would work fairly well ya know? full body but no head

@MasterNick... sounds good, Nick!  If you have more details you'd like to share, feel free to PM me.

I will say... I want to try keeping things VERY simple, very straightforward & intuitive.  In my opinion... the most major "flaws" of sport sword arts today--would be the emphasis on having 6388742358 rules & regulations.  Fencing irritates me to no end these days, especially regarding the ambiguity that is rearing its ugly head regarding "right-of-way" (for foil & saber)... even compared to what the rulebooks still state... and Kendo drives me bonkers too, especially because there are SOOOOOOOO many "on-target" strikes that simply... uh... don't count.

Too many rules & regulations... simply (in MY opinion, and yes, I speak only for myself here!)... WASTE EVERYONE'S TIME.  Seriously who gives a rat's butt about 65,535 if you're just planning to do a friendly, but fun bout with LED sabers?  I don't have the time, inclination, or patience to bother wasting hours and hours of time upon overly-dramatic rules... just to score a 5 to 15 point bout!  Especially when it's all "for fun" anyhow.  I mean, really... even if you're a "gold medalist" in fencing or Kendo, etc. ... ... well... but what does it MEAN?!?!?  lol... that you could fend off the Zombie Hordes??  :D

Anyhow... heheh... I'm hoping to keep things SIMPLE... yet somewhat "open to unique alteration" for special bouts.

This is all sounding great guys. Can you imagine the day when we have a Lightsaber World Championship!

Ah yes, the good old point sparring system. If your opponent doesn't  acknowledge or the judges don't see it, it turns in to the "I Hit you, your dead" "No you didn't, I go my class two force field on"! That's we like to use the Instant Death/ Certain Death/ wound method with washable chalk.(different colors per person) Both you and your opponent know right away when and where you were hit and if they are fatal.  Yes it gets messy but it is really fun, that is until you look in the mirror and realize "Oh crap I am dead" or "30 sec bleed out....still dead, CRAP!"  and yes even "oh look I cut my own wrist....awesome"  Works well with rubber and wooden weapons, I am guessing it will probably stain the white blades though.

obviously there'd be some protective equipment standards...i think perhaps a subtly padded robe, similar to a gi, maybe with reinforced elbows and shoulders...a training regimen would include proper distance and control, further lessening the chance of injury.  i think head shots are perfectly justified;  theres plenty of precedent for armored clone trooper type helmets, or maybe fencing masks done up in a canon-type way..."with the blast shield down, i can't even see...how am i supposed to fight?"
counted blows might still be the best way to get the most enjoyment out of a lightsaber bout...but what if there was one hit only? double strikes = double defeat? hehe

Right, a double-hit in a "one-hit, one kill" bout would either result in a double loss... or it simply would be thrown out.  :)

I'm not sure which I opt for, but... here's the thing--with the system I'd like to create (and hopefully try to EVENTUALLY promote it as a "good standard" for folks out there)... you could specify that a certain match be *ANY* of those things...

In other words, although it would be hard to "tally up" every nuance... what is stopping people from having FUN in saying, ok... today let's make it that ALL hits count, and if we double-hit in the "one-hit, one kill"... we BOTH LOSE.

Or another day/match/whatever--they throw the double hits out.  Slightly different bouting rules, and maybe the match type could be identified as such, and a DISTINCTION would be there (for record-keeping sake) of the match's specifics.

I'll have to explain more later, but... really... you guys might be surprised--I have this covered, and I think when I "unleash" the system... people will be *DOWN*... I think they'll love it, and with any luck... we could finally UNIFY folks with sparring and all that jazz!

I am seriously loving this thread! I'm stoked for the sparring / match system Novastar is talking about, it sounds like it will be great to have even for those of us less likely to compete in the Lightsaber Category at the Olympics. XD

And all this talk of how one learns from sparring is most excellent! I'd also like to add in experience of my own. I've found when I spar with my friends, it's surprising how more often than not I find one or more of them have got some kind of training from somewhere. Often it's formal, sometimes it's more of a 'my brother took classes and he taught me a couple things', but either way, they often know some things. This means, of course, they pull a move from time to time that will lay me on my backside! What's great though is that equally often (after some laughing) they'll start teaching me the move they used, and the counters to it! You learn alot of interesting techniques that way, and it really expands your style. Especially if, say, I learned to fight via picking up on what I've seen used by others/on tv/in movies etc, and I fight a guy who is trained in Kendo. Then I fight another guy who is trained in fencing. I pick up moves from both, and maybe I pass those along to the other guy, and we expand our styles by adding in things we find usefull from each other. It's great! (Not to mention the look on an opponent's face when you start off two handed and suddenly switch to fencing tactics in the middle of a duel without a pause is PRICELESS)

That is why you shouldn't make fun of "Geeks". After years of abuse from the "cool" kids most of us become highly trained in some or another from of combat. (yes there is a little insight into my history) ;D

@Manroon... precisely!  With only a chosen few exceptions--most ALL training... is GOOD training.  Some more than others.  Sparring helps people to understand if what they have been doing is "bull-shido"... or really something APPLICABLE in any kind of "real-time" sport combat.

Another reason I hope to have "variants" on bouting will be to make certain than no one can simply get used to a particular ruleset... and then... after getting SO USED TO DOING IT... the mind starts to wander, thinking of ways to ABUSE that ruleset (in a point scoring system).

So... with any luck, there will be... how do I explain this... sort of "yes/no" variables that denote what type of sparring match was done.  If there are variables that are EXTREMELY rare or out-of-the-ordinary... they'll get marked as "wildcard" matches.  Again... hard to explain, but I think all will make sense in due time when I reveal it for DVD2 (and 3 & 4, etc.).

But really, I don't want to de-rail this thread too much.  Although I guess it's pretty open-ended.  PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!

Something I'd like to say (in case other folks are new or unsure of such a thing)... you can *NEVER* do enough practicing of your FOUNDATIONAL, rudimentary basics.  In other words... just because you've thrown (let's say) side-kicks for 10 years... doesn't mean you "magically" get to stop practicing them.  I mean, I can't stop you from never practicing them.  But you should.

Same goes for sword-type motions / actions / "moves".  I mean... here's an example I just remembered--I watched a video interview of a national fencing champion from 2000 who was going to the Olympics.  They asked him "Now that you've made the Olympic team... is the training easier?  Do you surpass the basics and only practice new, complex moves?"...

And of course his answer was Ohhhhh H&&&&&&&&LLL no!!  :)  He mentioned not being "satisfied" with his own LUNGE!!!  Which is--depending on how you look at it--one of the most foundational basic actions a fencer would be taught... from DAY ONE OF TRAINING.  Like when you took your first class... you probably learned about the lunge.

I could go on and on, but... I hope this is a lesson to ANYONE in that: YOU SHOULD NEVER ABANDON PRACTICING YOUR BASICS!!!  No, you are not "better" than your basics.  No, you are not "beyond them" now.  No, you are not so good at your basics that you should focus SOLELY on "super zorro ninja samurai" moves ... because chances are... the "super zorro ninja samurai" moves that you may seem to like so much... are PROBABLY just a combination of... ... THE BASICS!!!

So keep on practicing...

--Nova

i'd like to reiterate something Master Nova said about fundamentals and reinforcing them...in all levels of fencing, fundamentals and simplicity of tactic is usually what determines the outcome of a given confrontation.  you can never ever train your lunge, or basic footwork components enough! innovation occasionally scores touches, but strong, solid fundamentals honed through hours spent in the gym is what wins bouts, and eventually tournaments.

I agree with nova when i was in high school wresling thats what won basics but that just me

Speaking of basics... let's consider something...

In almost all forms of martial art (ok, well, competitive "try to hit/get the other guy" martial arts--not just the personal/singular forms)... I can guarantee you that one of the most PARAMOUNT foundational building blocks (if not THE most paramount)... is "measure".

What does that mean.

Measure is simply the current distance between you and your opponent at any given time/moment.  It is SO crucially important (yet easy for beginners to miss or "ignore"), I cannot even begin to tell you what you'll discover about martial arts if you PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR MEASURE (or distance if you'd rather call it that).

Very little can be achieved unless the measure is properly addressed--in fact... "random sparring" will produce exactly that--randomness.  You will almost never know why you were--or why you were NOT--hit by an opponent.

I could go on for quite a bit here, but... it's something more to be seen vs. heard.

Here's a video where I show some of the most BASIC and RUDIMENTARY fencing actions... very "static" too, meaning with NO TRUE FOOTWORK.  Mainly... because the camera was in a fixed position, lol.  :)  No cameraman = can't be moving around much, can we?  :)

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCuttingEdgeSabre (http://www.youtube.com/user/TheCuttingEdgeSabre)

The "Saber basics" video should autoplay on my channel... although you can watch more / all of the individual actions in the sidebar.

I could say a lot more, but... some of the concepts here will be seen in WAY more depth on NCSCS volume #2 and volume #3...

--Nova

And thats why i like 36in blades on my phantom v2 it gives me more reach i sack mobilty and it take more practice but it works for me. That remindes me be a ware of serounding my gf lyndze is and my frend kyle are having a hard time with this

A really good point, Rory!  Generally, if you have two decently trained fighters, and one has a (let's say) 40" blade length whereas the other has a 34" blade length... that can tilt the balance in the favor of the owner of the longer blade.

Granted... sometimes 2" to 4" differences aren't the ONLY factor in having an advantages... but certainly if you pit a 26" blade vs. a 40" blade... it's sort of a no-brainer!  :)

Sort of like a dagger vs. a sword--pretty obvious who has a GREAT advantage... :)

Well, a few days ago I got the chance to practice with the same guys. This time it didn't work out so well.

I type this now because I finally CAN type now. This last time I had my newest sabers, Dark Standard Issues with Heavy Grade blades, and I gotta say, I love, them, but heavy grade blades HURT when you get hit with them. Especially like when I got hit which was square across all four fingers with a full swing. One finger swelled up enough that I could not move it for 24 hours(It's fine now, so it's all good. Lesson learned. Gloves don't solve everything).

So here's how it breaks down. I got a SI staff but really just for the SI's. I'm a single saber user. One of the people I practice with is all about the dual weilding, and the other uses a single saber and a shield.

This time was not nearly as productive. Granted, I haven't had a lot of time to practice lately, but I still relished the idea of having someone to spar with. However, this time I got whooped by the guy with two sabers. I found out that he's not really...technical. No, he pretty much just starts swinging, hard and wild, and there's no way to get past his two blades to get in a mark without getting hit in return. I was disappointed in myself at this prospect mostly, that I couldn't get past two sabers even with all the practice I've put in.

I did learn though that you need to have some limits when you're sparring. I need to work with the guy that was dual weilding on that. I think part of the reason I did so poorly is because I controlled myself. WHen I struck, I did so cautiously so I didn't strike too hard. He, on the other hand, didn't have quite the same compunctions. Sparring, I think, should be something akin to touch football. You're trying to hone your skills, not test them, which is something I need to get him to understand before someone DOES break a finger or something else.

limitations are definitely an excellent thing to agree upon before committing to sparring with anyone...and theres definitely something to be said about a strong set of tactical armored gloves from a SWAT supplier. hehe. sorry to hear about your fingers. one thing i have noticed about dual wielding in general, especially an inexperienced practitioner, is to get their blades in each other's way as much as possible, and control the distance to your opponent with your feet.
adjusting your foot placement in relation to one or the other of the jar'kai practitioner's hands, forces them to continually have to turn to face you. this can give you enough time to get a quick thrust or short cut in at their lower arm, or hilt if thats allowed in your practice group.

My fingers are fine now, like I said, so it's all good, but yes, I need gloves. Better gloves. Possibly armored gloves. Let's see an ultrasaber get through CHAINMAIL!!! Er...actually no. US sabers probably would.

Actually, it didn't take him long to figure out that he could stop my saber with one and attack with the other, which is pretty standard fare for dual sabers. I also noticed that the weakness of dual weilding being only one hand per saber ISN'T a weakness afterall. If you've locked a single handed saber against a two-handed saber, the two handed is stronger UNTIL you use the second saber to bash it aside.

I still have a lot to work on concerning 1 vs 2.

Two hands are greater than one, I believe. If you have one hand on a saber and two on another, and you are in a lock, the two hands will win. Well, most of the time. There are a lot of pros and cons about the who dual wielding thing. I personally enjoy it at times, but, but it can be unfair. The thing is that it is really easy to get carried away with two sabers, especially if you are on the offensive side of course. The mere pressence of a person with two sabers is pretty daunting, but the person has to think with two sabers, not just one. If the user can master that, then that is a person who will give you a good fight. Usually, by what I have seen, the dual wielder will use a lot of energy swinging, and at times tire themselves out. Also, usually the person will use one hand dominant than the other. Personally, I think it is effective using two sabers deffensively. I always believed two sabers = Form III win. You can get pretty tired at times, and sure one saber is great, but I think it has its perks. I would say attack the less dominant hand as well as watching your foot work. Try to stay on the deffensive until you get a good read on your opponent. He will probably keep swinging at your in all sorts of directions. I would say attack/retreat in a timely matter. If you see an attack and know/feel as though he will come in with another retreat when you know where his swing will go, while also trying to use distance to your advantage. Tire him out, and try to get him to tie his own hands together. Also, a longer blade may be useful in this situation. It will force him to get closer to you with a greater chance of leaving himself open.

I go one hand when some ones dual wielding it give me more mobility than two handed grip so its easyer to work for an opening and get a feel for him and if there swing at random do what nick seid let them tire them selves out just stay just out of striking rang

Dual wielding is just like anything else. It's easy to do badly.

pretty sure lord raze hit it on the head. control of the distance is key, and like any armed contest, the practitioner who is most comfortable and trained longest with their particular style, will likely take home the bacon.

@masternick:  I disagree with the two hands thing.  I've broken plenty of lock by purposefully taking a hand off my saber and grabbing their wrist or if I'm duel wielding, taking a cheap shot at their gut while their saber is locked with mine.

I would say practice one hand stufe to it would mess with your opponit when im using a singal hilt i go from to kendo to a monkey grip

@Kaiden: Ok, I think I confused myself here, hah. With the lock thing, I mean two hands are generally stronger than one. As in if you have one hand with a saber swinging I think two hands holding the saber instead will give you better control while offering more of a way for you to conserve your energy. Personally, I dont lock a lot. One, it is kind of hard to control it, somewhat, and I would rather not hit any fingers, neither mine or my opponent's. Two, I dont want to mess up the blade. With a blunt weapon, not so bad. But usually I find myself pushing or redirecting more than actually staying in a particular place and locking. As for the hand to hand stuff, I try to stay away from that unless we actually plan the moves. Last thing I need is someone twisting the wrong way. But, I do see your point. I can see how dual wielding can offer its cheap shots, for sure. But then again, that is why I dont like locking. Especially against people with two blades. BIG MISTAKE I think.

Then again, against two blades if you lock one and try to bring it down on the other or revert the direction to counter the other blade or try to knock them off balance, that could work too. Hmm, you got me thinking now. Well, there are ways to do it right and ways to do it wrong, like Raze said.

I figured everyone would agree with that. I actually learned it first hand when I tried to learn guitar last year. I discovered that guitar is an easy instrument to play, it's just hard to play good! I could sit there and play it all day so long as no one could hear me! lol. As soon as a family member would come home, I'd quickly be met with a: "Stop that noise! There's other people here now!" Then my guitar broke, so I haven't played in like a year.....

Two handed control of a single weapon versus one-handed control of a single weapon is *NOT* always better, btw...

Leverage, leverage, leverage.  If you catch the part of the weapon that you really SHOULD be stopping (last 3-6 inches of blade)... using the area of YOUR weapon that is closest to your hand (3-6 inches of blade closest to hilt area)... it's not nearly as a big deal as you'd think.

An example?  I gave one (in some thread here) regarding a guy who used his shinai (a pretty long one at that) vs. me with my fencing saber.  Would anyone here contest the following? -->

* Most shinai are heavier than a fencing saber (especially if they are longer or = length)
* All shinai are thicker than a fencing saber
* Shinai are primarily meant to be controlled with two hands--so there is the ability to do so (and, of course, use one hand if you wish)
* Fencing sabers are meant to be controlled with ONE hand--and CANNOT be used with two (with any real control or effectiveness)

In my post, I mentioned how I was a bit worried in the beginning... whether or not I could hold up to defending, or even executing some well-placed beat attacks.  Well... everything was fine.  All of my correctly executed actions felt no different than had I been fencing another saber fencer.

The only time I had issue is when I FAILED to use decent techniques (and therefore, proper distance)... and the point with that is--well, I deserved to get hit here, or at least expected/understood the result at the time if my opponent scored, realizing... HE didn't outfence me... I outfenced MYSELF during that action!  :)

The moral is... leverage, proper measure, and proper "blade relationship" (isn't that sweet--the weapons have a "relationship" together, how cute)... is VERY IMPORTANT!  One hand, two hands... it's important.  Period.

Yes, but in the case of my duel, it was less one handed saber vs two handed saber but more two handed saber vs dual sabers. That's where the complxity came in.

Any way you slice it, you can be at a distinct disadvantage if you're using "single saber" vs. "dual sabers".  Unless--for whatever reason--the person with the dual sabers is very inexperienced, and you happen to be seasoned/well-experienced.

At this point... MEASURE could not possibly be MORE IMPORTANT.  In fact... almost everything you DO revolves around having to dodge: you have ~no~ choice if they choose to (for lack of a better way to explain in words vs. actions) attempt to use a "scissoring" type of action.  In other words--SMART duel wielders attack SIMULTANEOUSLY from DIFFERENT angles/lines of attack.  This simply makes it physically IMPOSSIBLE for a single-wielder to defend both areas at the same time.  Again, it simply becomes impossible.

HOWEVER... ~dodging~ or being "clear" of each line of attack is NOT impossible.  In fact, again, it's your only chance during such a "scissoring" action.

Personally though?  I don't really care if the person wields a staff or dual sabers vs. my single saber--for me, it makes it easier to look for mistakes and openings... and since I'm always using the measure anyhow... it helps ease the burden for me, although I need to be VERY fast to avoid being hit during an attack of MY OWN, lol!!  But hey... you can't hit what you can't reach.

Master BStone has it right too, mentioning that you need to do your best to attempt trapping BOTH weapons in one line of attack (wherever possible), and ALSO counterattack at that moment, or maybe a split second later.  This... is VERY VERY difficult to do, however.  I prefer using the measure and looking for mistakes--which, undoubtedly, will occur.

So... yup... if the dual-wielder uses "scissoring" actions... you're in a LOT of trouble!  If they are above your skill and you have a single saber--good luck--you have VERY VERY little chance of successfully scoring well during the bout + prepare to get pounded.  If they are equal to or BELOW your skill level... you STILL have to pull off some EXTREMELY precise moves... but it is very doable, especially when (precise!!!) measure is utilized.

i agree, using the measure and looking for mistakes ought to be a high priority at all times...when facing any opponent regardless of weapon configuration. when facing the dual wielder, the most distinct advantage comes from altering your own angle to the opponent such that they must turn to engage both of their sabers...in short, line up with either their left or right, and continually put pressure on their outside targets, that is to say, every angle thats not within reach of both of their arms.  if you're keeping the measure well, then the last third of your blade should be all the timed offense you need.  also, in terms of reach, even when scissoring, the dual wielder's reach is diminished by their facing you with both weapons. 

Well i say dual him more that will help the best and wach what you do and what he does and take mental notes because even if you loss you learn more every time

OKAY!!!

I got another practice session in the other day with the same guys I've been dueling with. The first time was good, the second time was bad, and this time was better than the first by far.

First off, I learned to set some ground rules so that no one gets hurt this time. I took a bit of a lesson from watching fencing as both duelists are scoring on touches, not how many bones they break. So I likened saber dueling to touch football with more emphasis on precision and less on force. This did a whole world of good.

Secondly, this session went GREAT. Wait, not enough emphasis, let me bold and underline, it went GREAT. Starting off, it was much of the same, but when one of the two guys went home, I was able to duel with the last one more focused and to be honest, I walked all over him. So I gave him a bit of a lesson(Note: I am NOT an instructor by any means. I don't even play one on the internet). I showed him the basics of form I, Shii-cho, the marks of contact, and the principles of the form. Simplicity above all else, focus, and resolve. Once I got him to understand the basics of the form, we tried again, both using Form I. What a difference! Most matches were about three strikes in duration with both of us capable of blocking or parrying the first two strikes easily and faltering on the third and forth. For the most part, we both maintained focus on the marks of contact, weapon -> hand -> arm and rarely scored what would be a lethal hit.

After he had the basics of form I down, I introduced him to Form II, which I found to be a lot of fun but he didn't. He was absolutely not suited to Form II(And it can't be the saber since we were both using Standard Issues). I showed him the proper grip style for Makashi and explained how the form moves from the wrist with as little arm motion as possible as well as emphising footwork to control the distance in a match. Again, he didn't do all that well but even in the dozen or so matches that we had we both improved significantly.

The lesson learned here(For me) was refinement. I've been practicing for a while now, he hadn't been, but with a couple of ground rules and a little basic focus it turned from the last practice session where we all walked away hurt to something really constructive where at least two of us learned something.

Also, dueling with sabers at night is AWESOME. Losing the end cap for a blade at night is SIGNIFICALY LESS AWESOME!!! Now I need a new blade or just a handful of tips...

If you have the cap supper glue it back on thats what i do

Rory, I think he lost the tip. Which really sucks.

Yeah, the tip is gone. It came off mid-strike and none of us heard it hit the ground. It's gone.

I actually lost TWO tips that night, and BOTH of them from Heavy Grade blades which are made for dueling. But, I still have one heavy grade blades, and I was able to cannibalize one to make the other workable.

Still, extra supplies are going to be necessary.

I can attest to the fact that... no matter WHAT you do with tips... they WILL eventually come off.  It's not a question of "if", only "when".

A lot of the "elitist" saber folks have disagreed with me for years and years... but the proof is in the pudding.  The amount of sheer usage that most of my sabers have gone through is enough for me to say this with impunity and certainty, lol.

The reason they fly off isn't how "much" or "little' glue that was used--nor what type.  It's a PHYSICS thing.  I won't go into the details, but as you guys probably know, the poly-tubes actually FLEX / bend / give during a strike.  Sure, you can't SEE that without some super slow-mo + 2000fps cam or whatever... but these things DO bend/flex.  It is actually why they are so "strong".  Supple like bamboo, strong like steel.

So it's a pressure thing.  The tip wants to fly off simply because the warping of the blade causes the blade to loosen around the tip.  There is very little that can be done about this, short of having some REALLY crazily designed tips made--which is not cost-worthy... it's far too expensive for such a minor concern.  Believe me, I tried some stuff back in 2007... :)

My only suggestions:

* Buy a handful of extra tips.  Not a big deal.
* In addition to whatever glue was used for a blade (whether you made it, or you bought from Ultra)... add a thin layer of a "gummy" type of glue all around the seam on the outside
* Wrap a thin layer of packing tape (clear) around the tip and blade.  Try to keep it as clean as possible, and you know... make it look nice.

These things have helped me greatly.  By the way, in a pinch--if a tip DOES fly off, you can quickly "short term repair" it with the packing tape if you have extra tips (or found the lost tip).

Some people have chosen NOT to use tips, and "plug" the blade with some kind of rubber thingy or 2-part epoxy or whatever (and then sand/round off the edges)... but I personally think that is pretty silly, as...

BLADE TIPS *DO* LAST A VERY LONG TIME!!  :)  So don't worry too much, unless you thwack & whack your sabers around 6 days a week for hours each day...

Good luck with them, and although we de-railed the thread a bit here... it's a good concern to bring up.  Those tips CAN be a pain.  But I'm just telling you guys... there is NO blade out there where the tip will stay on "forever", or... there's no way to say blade X's tip is really "better" than another's, for the most part.

Good point Nova.

Now, I have a few things I want to check on here and then I'm going to practice my guitar, but I have some words of wisdom to offer. After each practice and/or lesson(whether it's music, sports, or whatever), just remember:

Today, you're better than you were yesterday.

I dunno, might not be a sure fix but I've been using that Gorilla glue that I've heard mentioned on here a few times, not a problem since. I'm sure that it'll probably come off again eventually, but for now it's good.

Only problem now is the blade that lost its tip was the other heavy grade for my SI staff, so I can't staff for a while until I get it rebalanced. So, back to practicing standard forms. I never was worth a damn with a staff anyway.

speaking of practices, i'm looking to organize one here in cleveland pretty soon. i'd love to gedt a bunch of us under one roof or sky and commence with the saberness.

Well, unless you mean Cleveland, Texas, I don't think I can make it.

I would love to be a part of it, however I'm pretty sure I won't be able to make it there anytime soon.