Saber Forum

I've been wondering which form is best for curved hilts, and so far I've heard Makashi/Form 2 is the best, but I was thinking that Form 7 Vaapad would be best. Any thoughts?

None. Curved hilts are a personal preference for those who like a different balance. People associate curved hilts with Makashi because of Dooku. I've used curved hilts for Shii Cho. So it's a matter of your Mileage May Vary

ok, thanks :)

yeah I associate it with form II as its basically fencing and some modern fencing swords have curved hilts to make thrusts easier and create a more ergonomic (fancy word of the day) grip

 This is true, but it's worth noting that modern fencing weapons are considerably changed versions of something called a gymnasium sword. Gymnasium swords were practice weapons for training to use the real thing in combat, especially in the case of sabre. For these purposes, "sabre" will refer to the steel, and "saber" to the product of ultrasabers.

 A curved hilt, when gripped by the curved portion itself, allows the hand to sit more naturally in a position rather like that of an early pistol; a relaxed trigger grip. This, grip means a swordsman has the ability to more easily control the point of the sword by pushing or pulling with the index finger, and doing the opposite with the thumb, which lies atop the hilt parallel to the blade (think of a thumbs-up). In modern fencing, the blades are extremely light, with an entire sword coming in on average at around 500 grams, or a little over a pound. This means that point control is preferable, and thus only one of the three sport fencing disciplines allows cuts as well as thrusts.

 With a heavier blade, such as on an infantry or cavalry sabre, this 'trigger grip' allows precise edge alignment to come a little more naturally while making the rather circular and riposte-friendly motions of historical sabre fencing.

 Therefore, I would venture that a saber with a curved hilt with a midgrade blade or standard ultraedge would be best suited to makashi, form two. However, with a heavier blade, and momentum on your side, it would lend itself well to a one-handed variant of Djem-so, the melee side of form five.

  Happy sabering!

I would one hundred percent agree with Master Uilos. You're going to find that once you get used to your curved hilt, (if you haven't already) you'll find a style that will comply with it. Of course, this is from what I've heard about curved hilts and combat.

As usual, we're on the same page.  The curved hilt and Makashi association comes from Dooku, who doesn't even use anything that resembles fencing.  I understand the general idea of curvature, many fencers like their tangs bent (which causes the handle to be slightly bent).  That said, it doesn't give any major advantage, even in fencing it's just a preference.

Nothing against curved hilts of course, they're quite neat to wield!  It just isn't the "ultimate Makashi hilt" that people think it is.

Yup, form two is the best for curved hilts. Dooku uses it, but you don't have to use a curved for form two.

I don't know if I agree that Form 2 is the best for curved hilts..  I've recently watched both Episodes II and III.  Dooku only holds the hilt by or below the curve with his left hand while holding the hilt just below the emitter but above the curve with his right hand, which I am going to assume is his dominant hand.  There are several promo shots of Dooku holding the hilt at the curve but I haven't seen a whole of that in the films' duel sequences.  In regards to the slight curve that's just below the emitter, I can only assume that it is an aesthetic choice as well as small amount of  comfort.

I think that Dooku, like most Jedi and Sith, chose a Form that best suited his personality, philosophical outlook, and combat style and then, over the course of the years, added bits and pieces of the other Forms to make up for his own deficiencies in his chosen Form.

Like Master Nero said,
And from everything that I have read about Makashi, stemming from multiple sources such as the Wookiepedia and the extremely knowledgeable Martial Artists found here on Saberforum, my thoughts of Makashi is that the main goal is controlling the opponent, which Dooku does very well without looking like the stereotypical fencer. 

So my thoughts on best Form for the curved hilt.. use for whatever Form you like, I'm sure you'll figure a way to use it well.

Hello! Gee, it's been a while since I've been here... How about form III? With all the spins involved for defense the style could be similar to Chinese dao work which has a similarly curved hilt. Just a thought. That was actually my first thought when I first saw Dooku's saber, at least.

My personal opinion, is that you can train yourself to do ANYTHING.

A curved hilt can be used with ANY style, provided you train yourself to do so. Typically, like others have said, Dooku is the one that iconazided the Curved saber for Makashi, just bear in mind, Dooku didn't use Makashi exclusively. Actually, according to one of the star wars books in the EU (Dark Labrynth or somethingl ike that) Its said Dooku can use ALL lightsaber styles effectively, though he greatly prefered Makashi.

Personally, I hate using a curved saber. Because of the way that I duel, I don't like how the "curve" shifts in my hand, I prefer a straight hilt.

So realistically, Id say there's NO style that's best for a curved hilt. Just use a curved hilt, and practice, It'll work if you put a lot of practice into it!

Curved hilts are neat, but I think they're more limiting than anything.  Sure they give you a pretty ergonomic grip, but the curvature makes two handed use quite awkward.  Putting your hands out of line greatly decreases your ability to apply leverage on the weapon.

It is actually more less awkward than you think. The only down side to the curve would be a loss of leverage with two hands. But then again, if you favor Makashi, then you naturally wouldn't rely on brute strength, and would try to avoid situations requiring excessive leveraging.

I have to say form II AKA Makashi because in the star wars movies Count Dooku had a curved hilt saber and he mastered in form II but that's just me you can use whatever you feel is best

Using two hands isn't just adding power, it adds control as well.  "Brute force" hardly applies to a skilled use of two hands - Master Artorius typically uses two hands and I would classify his style as "lightning speed" and efficiency over brute force.

I just don't find curved hilts to have as many advantages as most think, which is why I tend to find them overrated.  I'll keep an open mind though, in the event that I get one in my collection in the future.

No doubts about the speed. I've seen old Kenshi that can strike so fast with 2 hands that not even the slo-mo replay can show you what happened. Brute force is not neccessarily slow. But you have to admit, 2 hands does increase the power. Single handed increases dexterity and range of movement, and one hand typically can move faster than 2.

The curved in my opinion is a comfort thing. Anything you can do with a curved hilt you can do with a straight hilt. It's just more comfortable (and stylish) brandishing a curved one.

I partially agree, about one hand increasing the range of movement, but I maintain that the control gained with two hands add more than just speed and power.  Some parries become more difficult when the arms cross, but overall I don't find a loss of dexterity when using two hands.  That's coming from a guy who is trained to use one hand too, so you would imagine my bias would be towards that method.

Style wise though, you'll definitely be unique with a curved hilt.  No question about that!

Point, sir. You make a valid point about the control aspect that also comes from two hands. I don't know how that escaped my mentioning considering that Kendo is a 2-handed style. We used to have to practice men strikes with our off hands (whichever hand held the base of the hilt of the shinai) but had to hold it at the pommel. It always made me feel terribly ineffective because of the lack of control, but that was also swinging a 50" sword at arms length from the pommel. UGH!. The odder thing is, is that with 2 hands, my control comes from my strong/favored right hand, and the power of the strike comes from my weaker/off left hand.

That's really interesting Logos. FOr me, when I use a two handed grip, my control comes from my strong/favored hand, my right, which I keep DIRECTLY under the hilt/emitter of whatever weapon I'm usng, and the left hand at the bottom. However, I feel the power of my strikes comes from a point between my hands. It feels like the sword itself becomes alive, and becomes an extension of my will. Both hands work together, focusing energy throughout the hilt and blade to fform one solid whole that guides and directs my strength.

Actually, thinking about it, I really don't know WHERE the strength for my strikes comes from, the best I can answer, is from my spirit and will.

The only reason I know my right hand is mostly control, is because I usually prefer to fight one handed!

Actually there is a specific reason the curved hilt is generally associated with makashi. When duelling became prevalent during intense periods af schizm within the jedi order, makashi was developed and the dueling or curved hilt saber was simultaneously developed. With the curved hilt, dueling sabers provide a few small traits that can be exploited in makashis' highly technical way.
1. The hilt is more ergonomic, assisting in protection from disarms, a common practice of the form makashi was designed to beat; shii cho.
2. By rotating the grip in the hand the blade will not extend directly out from the hand, and thus becomes 'off' slightly. If you are trying to bypass a standard defense (makashis modus operandi) this is a useful trait. This is actually the primary technical function of the curve.
3. If you want to switch back into a power based attack, the curved hilt can be used to great effect in leveraging power.
4. Lastly, when reach and precision are paramount, u want a blade to come straight out from the hand in a more natural way.

There is nothing wrong with a standard hilt, i wouldnt say the curved hilt is inherently superior, or that its advantages are unbeatable. The dueling saber is also capable of being used in any form. Golf, soccer and track shoes all utilize cleats but are used in very different intesities of activity. In the end, at most levels of combat the curve is essentially an aesthetic choice.

I....Yes, your absolutely correct, that IS why its associated....or rather, would be associated if the Jedi Order was real.

Honestly, a curved hilt has become associated with Makashi because almost everyone, while not reading the books to That level, knows Dooku uses Makashi, and he uses a curved saber hilt.

forum to is what it was designed for....but it maters who you are

Too true. I'm currently reading the Darth Bane trilogy. His saber is a curved hilt, but he favors what he calls "strong" form. Most likely it's something akin to Shien (Form V). The curved hilt is not neccessarily designed to fit a particular style, but rather to simply be more erganomic. It allows for a more comfortable grip in various maneuvers vs a straight hilt. From my observations, it makes for easier attacks, but a straight hilt might proove better for defence.

exactly bane was powerful and strong and the added leverage and grip would have made even one handed strikes brutal. where as dooku used it in a way to misdirect.

Bane is a djem so specialist, a form heavily influenced by makashi. If you read in darth bane path of destruction kasim tells bane about the lightsaber he gives him. It should be noted though that banes saber is hooked, not curved. A hook is striaght from the emitter until a few centimeters above the pommell. A curved saber usually curves throughout its length, or in segmentica as with dookus'. The hook provides some of the benifits of the curve but not to the same degree. It does however still offer the ability to alter the angles of some attacks, making them more unpredictable for the opponent. This is what kasim himself said in the book.

Just read that part. And just to clarify...What shape does a hook take? ::) There is another saber smith that has made the "official" unofficial Darth Bane hilt based on these descriptions from the books. (Google images of "Darth Bane's lightsaber") I don't think you will be disappointed with this interpretation. It is what I envision when reading.

But to the point of combat form. Bane recognizes only 2 forms of saber combat, Strong form and Fast form. (Reference Wookieepedia) I would classify Makashi part of Fast form. It is kinda fancy and very 'tricky', not something that overwhelms by brute strength. Ataru, Djem So, Juyo would fall under Strong form. Considering Bane's physical size and strength as well as his considerable strength in the Force, even blocking one of his strikes is going to bounce you off the floor. I view Makashi as having more finesse, and more likely to slip under your defence, rather than breaking your block.

But that's just my take.

I haven't read Bane personally, but this sounds pretty accurate.  People usually try to oversimplify the Forms, but this one actually does have a general truth to it, and I can see someone like Darth Bane thinking that way.  Point, sir.

Thanks