Saber Forum

I've seen a lot of discussion about dueling using certain technique and form, but what I am wondering is how do you duel against someone who uses nothing more than a "Chop and clobber" technique? Is there some technique or style geared toward this?

Strike as he starts into an attack. Its screws with rhythm and gives you a pretty decent shot at intercepting the hands during his attack.

Another option is the principle of using an opponents force against them which is the center of Aikido.  If you face a person who drives forward at full power, instead of trying to stop their attack redirect it with your blade and let them pass by.  Then you have access to their flank and they will have nothing available to stop you.  Even if they don't completely pass you by the fact that their force will continue beyond where they expect a hit they will be off balance and you will have a timing advantage.

There is no defense against it.  That's why I'm still around. ;D

I guess it could be countered with Makashi or Djem-So.

With the precision of Makashi, it would let you exploit the open targets that using a "chop and clobber" style.  Untrained opponents will almost always leave open spots after they attack, which can be exploited by someone with even basic training.

Dlem-So/Shien, on the other hand, is geared towards manipulating an opponent's blade, which is very easy to do if someone doesn't know what they're doing.

I guess form 3 would work too, since a hack and slash approach is (usually) going to tire out the duelist quickly, leaving an opening for you to counter attack.

But I'm just an average duelist at best, so this is just my guesswork.  I'm sure there are some Masters here who would be much more helpful than I am.

You know, sometimes I take the use of energy thing to a different level and take a dodge back with an immediate counter attack. Nothing like having someone off balance because they were expecting a parry and you offered none...

It depends.... I'm small, but I'm a fairly strong guy, if I can I'll meet their force head on and stop them in their tracks... the determination reverses the intimidation factor that they're trying to work in.... On the likely chance that someone is just so much bigger than me that they can overpower me, I'll utilize body changes as Master Artorious stated, but you still move in close. It's counter intuitive, because you want to get the heck out of there, but if you can get comfortable with getting in close, you can really take your dueling to a new level.

I've seen this touched on in almost every comment... the "Barbarian Wood Cutter" is used to having the initiative. He's used to fighting on his terms and choosing when he attacks. This is what you must take from him. If you get him out of his comfort zone, he has to adapt to you.

All excellent answers, and give a variety of ways do deal with it.  As Kaiden said, Makashi allows for excellent point control - this means the large telling movements your opponent does give you opportunities to attack his wrists or arms or even legs.  HOWEVER, this part is very timing-specific.  In fencing it's called "attack in preparation" - literally you attack as your opponent prepares to attack.  The tricky thing is if the attack is already being executed, it's too late, but if he has just started then it can be too early - he may parry.  There's a very specific moment you have to utilize, and this is done just by sparring the opponent and learning his own timing.

Djem So is another good one to use (Makashi and Djem So are my two favorites actually) - another form that sort of stresses control and manipulation.  As Artorius said, using an opponent's power against them works wonders.  Let the strength of their blow fuel your own riposte (the attack after your parry) and I'm sure they'll be quite surprised to see the tables turned quite quickly.  Doing this with the movement to the side to expose their flank is a fantastic idea if executed well - be sure to practice this kind of movement to get it down so you can use it in an actual sparring situation.

This was a good post because I see a lot of people do this of even the "Tennis Swing".

My brother likes to just swing it as hard as he can, I keep telling him he is only going to hurt himself, and them he did; He took it almost as an invitation and less of a warning.

I don't see the hard swinging getting you anywhere but sore arms and dead.

It's not going to be easy unless you really have an idea of the concept + timing + "understanding & controlling" measure... but...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p_sksiNmQk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p_sksiNmQk#)

Basically "attack on preparation" or in many ways "stop cut".

"Gorilla" duelers, are my specialty   ;D

In kenjutsu we use a style called sen sen this basically means strike while they attack, while a sen sen strike is not a lethal strike, it will break your opponents pace rythm and style (if any ) Sen Semand this also will open up other targets to strike, or you could use the concept of Mi Ie (my spelleng of this may be wrong but it is something we do, not write about and that is how it sounds) Mi Ie is the concept of knowing ones distance and being able to keep out of your opponents range, this means moving fast and can make you tired fast. Sen Sen is my prefered way of dealing with "gorrillas"

I might get to do a video showing how to deal with power based attackers monday!

Wow, First let me say thank you to everyone for the responses, there is a lot of great advice in here. I'm going to break down what I have gathered(though not in it's entirety, and slightly muddled) so far. It seems the most common approach is to take away the initiative by (Sen Sen)striking as the opponent is in the midst of his "wind up" I guess you could say. Get him off balance and throw off his timing. Avoidance is also another common point in this thread. Tire him out and watch for the opening. I also believe there was mention of a "feint-like" maneuver where you pull back on the parry to force a counter of a move that hadn't actually occurred. (I think I explained that right, not sure.) Moving inside the comfort zone of the opponent seems to be another fairly decent option. Not to dumb it down, but as I understand this notion, "If he's swinging for the fences, you may just have to dust him off the plate." Also the Aikido approach of using his momentum against him is a really great option, which goes back to the avoidance and tiring out of the opponent. Making opportunities from his frustration and fatigue. My stronger point I've left for now, is Makashi. I have actual real world experience with this. I have caught punches in mid air, and anticipated a mug of beer about to be thrown at my head, just by watching obvious "tells" of each person. I hold a lot of faith in this because it has served me well through many experiences and helped me to control and avoid situations that I really didn't want to be involved in to begin with. I've been in many fights where I never had to throw a punch. Only blocking and calm rationalizing with the aggressor. I guess you could say my true fighting style would be Diplomacy.

I think I have hit on the finer points of these offerings from everyone. If I've left someone out, it was not intentional. Every piece of advice here is important to me, and I do take it all in to account. If I have mixed up some terms please help to correct me. Again I say thank you to everyone involved in this discussion, and I leave this open to anyone who has more to offer on this subject.

MTFBWY 1 and all.

This sounds great Lucien. I hope you have the opportunity to make the video. I'm sure we would all benefit from it.

A good way to notice a "tell" for their attack is to watch their shoulders, they will always move before they strike.

This is a valid observation, but the eyes can give away a tell before it happens.

There is so many thing that are subconscious does that we don't know it's crazy, Are faces always twitch to our emotions.

I got to spar with a rather quick and strong gentleman who is about 6'3'' or so, and we got it on video... I'm just waiting for them to review the vids so I can get permission to post them.

That's great Lucien. I look forward to seeing it.

Our "Barbarian Wood Cutter" in Phoenix is 6'8", 350ish...

I can take him.

My Barbarian woodcutter is 5' 9" 215 lbs. He's a quick little bugger.

every woodcutter I've ever faced gets hit on the forearms, all the time:)

As promised here's the video of the gracious gentleman I got to spar with, mind you today was our first meeting. He's a big guy, with strength and pretty good speed. So this is a dangerous combination, but the techniques applied are still the same for an opponent who wants to power through your defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Ip4l3SxAw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Ip4l3SxAw#)

questions comments concerns welcomed

cool thing about the foam noodles over the blades is you can do face contact, and full body contact.

That's a great video Lucien. I saw that he clearly had the reach advantage, but you were able to get him off balance a couple times to deliver the fatal head strike. Also, I notice that you made sure to keep moving. It seemed like a lot of your thrusts and strikes came from defensive maneuvering. Dodging out of range, but reaching out to strike at the same time.

Good video!

 am stealing the noodle idea, that is ingenious you get points.

I'm glad you could tell, I was worried that the video might be too "raw" to show the techniques I was using. If you can get comfortable with being in close it really kicks your dueling up to new levels. Being able to move quickly helps you do that, a moving target is harder to hit than a stationary target. Not just useless movement though, work on body changes and pivots so you can place your body in a position that makes you a hard target. Thanks!


Thanks Kham! and I can't take the credit for the noodle idea... I enjoy my saber injuries too much... that was my friend's idea. He's smart

Good video, Lucien... I like how you guys are really working on the footwork (I think the leaves really force you to stay well-grounded!).  Lots of nice feints and good speeds there from both of you!

I'm curious about your friend there--does he have a lot of martial experience, or is he generally new to the whole thing?

That's a good question Novastar... this was my first day dueling with him... we also boxed, he seemed like he really knew what he was doing with the gloves on. So I assume he's at least informally trained. As far as sabers he and the other gentleman I was sparring with have experience dueling each other quite a bit... Honestly though I'm not sure how seasoned he is, I'll have to ask him next time we meet up.

The footwork brings up a good point, I consider it to be a very important aspect, so I like to duel in tons of different environments, as Nova pointed out the leaves require you to be mindful of your foot work, I also like to duel on hiking trails mountain ridges and the beach. They all have such good training value because you learn how to think on your feet. What I will say is this, if you decide to duel on steep hill type terrain BE CAREFUL! I don't need to say how dangerous it is if you lose your footing, unless you're highly trained on how to break your fall, and how to roll with the hill without breaking your neck take it slow.

but yes I'm a stickler for good footwork, I think it is a key to great swordsmanship.