Saber Forum

Way of the Saber => Saber Combat => Topic started by: Darth Ptera on January 11, 2011, 09:43:35 AM



Title: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Darth Ptera on January 11, 2011, 09:43:35 AM
I've seen the strength of the US blades swinging into things and read that the Heavy Grade are capable of dueling bokkens and shinais.  I haven't seen anything about blades being jabbed into something though. I'm very accurate with my shinai and usually win duels thanks to a quick jab to the heart, I'm curious if this will be safe for my US. I read that the tips have a tendency to break off while dueling and I'm not sure if thrusts could possibly damage the retention screw. Not sure if I need to start altering my dueling style to get out of that habit before I get my saber but if anyone who has used them it would handy knowledge.

Thanks!


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Jammo on January 11, 2011, 10:11:17 AM
Thrusting is sketchy, both from an equipment and safety perspective. While the Shiak mark of contact is considered honorable by the Jedi for causing the least damage to an opponent, practical concerns often make it unwise to attempt without some kind of chest protection in your sword play due to the blunt trauma it can cause. I've met a bokken with my heavy grades, by the way. It will make the parry...


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Darth Ptera on January 11, 2011, 11:12:36 AM
I'm mostly worried about damaging the saber or the cap coming off at the last moment and jabbing with a possibly sharp surface(don't know if the uncapped tip even is sharp since I don't have one yet). However I can't imagine it would be any worse than getting caught with a pointy wood bokken to the sternum. Just for clarification we agree before the duel whether thrusts will be allowed or not, I don't just surprise people with that. Not nice or fun to pull that on a beginning sword fighter, best way to run people off from the fun of dueling is punishing them. As for getting hit... My master taught me that if you get hit, don't complain, you shouldn't of gotten hit in the first place.  ;D

Also hadn't heard the term Shiak before, interesting read on wookiepedia, thanks!


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Ultra on January 11, 2011, 07:10:02 PM
The blade will handle thrusting without an issue.  Personally, I do not allow thrusts in my duels because they can really hurt people if done by amateurs.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Darth Ptera on January 12, 2011, 08:54:47 AM
Sweet! Thank you Ultra, exactly what I wanted to know.

Again just to clarify, thrusts are agreed upon before our duels not just thrown in as a bad surprise. I don't know what you would consider an amateur, but since I've had formal training in swordplay and years of practice I no longer consider myself one.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Jammo on January 12, 2011, 09:17:18 AM
I've never had anyone hurt by a thrust either, but all of ours are pulled and with our knuckle deep, whack the hands style it doesn't come up much. I still get a little nervous when my guys Frost and Midnight insist on those damn body shot matches, though.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Darth Ptera on January 12, 2011, 10:31:38 AM
Ugh, I hate purposeful hand shots, that will result in a hard chest jab on the rematch. Accidents are ok, but purposefully striking the hand has resulted in longer pain than full contact hits to anywhere else.   


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Ultra on January 12, 2011, 08:01:31 PM
Ive had the pointy end of a saber in the crotch before when dueling.  My kids now know that Daddy doesn't allow jabs.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Jammo on January 12, 2011, 08:17:23 PM
Hand shots are crucial to the theory of how a lightsaber works, though. I try to get the emitter with no hands, though. That is stylin' dueling when you can disable a blade with no harm done. Very Jedi of me when I do it, too...


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Darth Ptera on January 12, 2011, 11:10:37 PM
True enough, point taken Jammo. I need to find some good knuckle protecting gloves.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Jammo on January 12, 2011, 11:20:49 PM
I actually used gloves for a while but gave up on them because they slowed me down.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Darth Ptera on January 17, 2011, 12:18:50 AM
Wow, i just got my saber in the mail and it's gonna take some getting used to. I'm used to more weight in my weapons. Props to you Jammo, it's hard to imagine how unwieldily a 48"  blade would be. I think I may add some weights in the hilt and chop the blade down a couple inches to make it closer to my shinais. Also now holding it I recall someone asking about a hilt made out of steel to increase the weight. Personally I'm starting to think that would be a good idea.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Jammo on January 17, 2011, 02:23:11 AM
I'm actually thinking about hacking a couple inches off the big boy. I'll still have a reach advantage and it will be a tad more controllable. The three on one I almost won with it was pretty fun...


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Caine on January 17, 2011, 06:35:18 AM
As long as you don't thrust a tree or lamp post going 25mph, your blade and hilt should be just fine.  ;D


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Darth Ptera on January 17, 2011, 09:35:44 AM
I have no idea of my thrust speed... But that sounds like a good start to a joke though lol


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: ThreadJack on January 17, 2011, 03:28:35 PM
Like Caine said you should be fine. However your opponent is another story...


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Jammo on January 17, 2011, 06:48:47 PM
Ah man, I was just reminded of that time that my friend and I jousted with lightsabers on razor scooters. I won by knocking him off of his scooter. The sabers were fine...


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Saiyanhikari on January 17, 2011, 08:27:50 PM
Ah man, I was just reminded of that time that my friend and I jousted with lightsabers on razor scooters. I won by knocking him off of his scooter. The sabers were fine...
!!!
*Searches for his old razor scooter*
*Searches for Helmet*
Alright it's go time.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: ThreadJack on January 17, 2011, 09:05:03 PM
Lightsaber jousting? I'm in!


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Jammo on January 17, 2011, 09:08:09 PM
Yeah, it was probably the stupidest thing I've ever done with a saber...


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: sjorsjo91 on January 17, 2011, 09:12:25 PM
it sounds awesome. I hope that when we are going to a bungalow park with school my buddies take their phantoms with them. that would make 7 sabers (6 blue 1 green ::) ) a whole lot of noise and a whooooole lot of light.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: andilynnwoods on February 05, 2011, 03:50:55 AM
Ive had the pointy end of a saber in the crotch before when dueling.  My kids now know that Daddy doesn't allow jabs.



Sorry Ultra  :(

lol[/color]


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Amplus Vir on February 05, 2011, 05:48:25 PM
the other day i was stabbing a snow man that is very hard with a mid grade blade and it was just fine


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Ronin on February 05, 2011, 06:26:53 PM
The tip broke off of my Ultra Edge blade, but it wasn't due to jabbing, not sure what did it though (it was really cold, which leads me to believe it got kind of brittle). Anyways for any duelist out there GET THE HGUE BLADES, it is so worth the extra 10$

My little brother has seemed to master the art of knuckle hits, it's the reason I wear gloves a majority of the time, but your blade won't break as a result of it, but when dueling try to only touch them and hold it there so they acknowledge you've hit them, I'm sure they'd be more willing to die like that.

The weight difference is also pretty big, in Haidong Gumdo we do rolls, jumps, and literally thousands of cuts in an hour long class with a 6 pound sword, it may not seem like a lot to avid martial artists but imagine being a 16 year old at 5' 2" and 100 pounds. To compensate (if you must) go ahead with your plan of filling the hilt with dead weight be careful it doesn't slide around to damage the circuitry, the blade though I don't advise tampering with.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: thejedimasternick on February 05, 2011, 06:32:46 PM
Sometimes if you hit the saber at just the right spot, the tip will break off. Think of constantly hitting your US against the ground right where the tip is. Since the tip is attached to the blade, it doesnt have the strength of the entire blade. It still take a lot of damage though and pretty good repetive hits to the same spot to take the tip off. The weighted training is a good idea. Makes the saber a whole lot easier to wield once you get your hands back onto it. I was thinking, if not the hilt, what about some wrist weights so you wont damage the interior of the hilt?


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: ThreadJack on February 05, 2011, 10:03:19 PM
Sometimes if you hit the saber at just the right spot, the tip will break off. Think of constantly hitting your US against the ground right where the tip is. Since the tip is attached to the blade, it doesnt have the strength of the entire blade. It still take a lot of damage though and pretty good repetive hits to the same spot to take the tip off. The weighted training is a good idea. Makes the saber a whole lot easier to wield once you get your hands back onto it. I was thinking, if not the hilt, what about some wrist weights so you wont damage the interior of the hilt?

Or batting practice donuts might work...


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Darth Ptera on February 08, 2011, 11:58:29 PM
Wow this topic is still going! Nice :D

I like the idea of light saber jousting, that just sounds like a good time.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Jammo on February 09, 2011, 05:28:05 AM
I should use my Yari next time...


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: ThreadJack on February 09, 2011, 11:42:38 PM
I should use my Yari next time...

I've always wanted to see one of those in action.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: John-Michael on February 01, 2012, 05:11:48 AM
Thrusting?  Oh, man...  I SERIOUSLY don't recommend thrusting, unless you have sufficient protective equipment and training.

THRUSTING strikes are VERY dangerous; it's why most (if not all) kendo schools abstain from teaching thrust strikes ("tsuki") to beginners, and usually reserve such techniques for more advanced students.

Accidentally "walking" into a thrust strike can cause serious or even fatal injury.

I'm just sayin'...


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Ander on February 28, 2012, 09:59:37 AM
In my school, thrusting is completely forbidden in all styles, and rightly so in my opinion. Even in Makashi you don't do lunges, but semi-lunges, that is lunges to the side of the opponent with a flick of the wrist to hit his side with the edge of the blade.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Master Lucien Kane on February 28, 2012, 05:38:34 PM
I both do and encourage thrusting in my sparring matches, however, I'm doing very controlled thrusts, and it's still dangerous. So if you're going to do it, I recommend the pool noodles over the blade; make the noodle about two inches longer than the blade to account for thrusts.
 
Here's my philosophy on he matter though, if you never train against a direct thrust... you will not be able to effectively defend against a thrust.

Same with everything else, this is the same reason I refused to wear a cup when I practiced martial arts. If you get kicked in the groin once... You never want that to happen again. You will most certainly block the next time.

Obviously you have to be slightly smart for this method of training to work... Forsaking body armor in combat based on the idea that if you get shot you will dodge the bullet next time isn't exactly smart. You must count the cost, a bruise per say is far less damaging than an eye gouged out or a broken rib. Both of which are possible with irresponsible thrusting techniques.

My usual advice, know your limits, know your sparring partner. Communicate and listen to each other.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Luna on February 28, 2012, 06:13:34 PM
Obviously you have to be slightly smart for this method of training to work... Forsaking body armor in combat based on the idea that if you get shot you will dodge the bullet next time isn't exactly smart.

Woah woah woah - you're telling me that I'm not Neo? Cool story, bro ;) Seriously, as always, I agree with your opinion. Learn from your mistakes and don't make the same error twice.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Arakan Steele on February 28, 2012, 06:34:16 PM
Thrusting?  Oh, man...  I SERIOUSLY don't recommend thrusting, unless you have sufficient protective equipment and training.

THRUSTING strikes are VERY dangerous; it's why most (if not all) kendo schools abstain from teaching thrust strikes ("tsuki") to beginners, and usually reserve such techniques for more advanced students.

Accidentally "walking" into a thrust strike can cause serious or even fatal injury.

I'm just sayin'...

THIS

And it has nothing to do with a tip breaking off either, the dangerous aspect of thrusting is accidentally catching someone the the throat. Even if the round tip is securly in place, you can do serious damage to someone if they happen to "walk in" to your thrust and you happen to catch them in the throat.

Just "aiming" for the chest isn't a safe alternative, if they decide to lunge or duck in some way you might hit their throat instead. Also, even if you hit them in the chest there's a chance it could slip and slid into their throat. I know, the chances of that happening are slim, you don't want to be on either end of that senario the one time it does happen.



Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Vrakul on February 28, 2012, 06:37:38 PM
Quote
this is the same reason I refused to wear a cup when I practiced martial arts. If you get kicked in the groin once... You never want that to happen again.

Wow, that's scary! My Kajukenbo school requires a cup for all male students, because Kajukenbo has a LOT of groin shots. It's not a question of if you can block it - you are GOING to get punched/slapped/kicked in the groin, period. Kajukenbo has been called 'the perfected art of dirty street fighting,' lol, and while there are many Kajukenbo artists in tournaments nowadays, the actual art relies heavily on techniques/strikes to sensitive areas (groin, eyes, throat, kidneys, floating rib, etc.) that would disqualify us from tournaments. There's a big difference in tournament Kajukenbo and the real techniques one would use on the street.

I agree 100%, that the best, most effective way to learn to not get hit is to get hit. It isn't fun. Okay, it's a little fun - in a safe setting with a partner that has good control. The first time I took an elbow to the teeth hurt like heck, but it was still fun, because we had mad adrenaline going, and because I was lucky and didn't lose any teeth. The point is, as you stated,  we simply can't learn to defend against any form of attack if you're not training to defend against that attack. While safety and control is very important, equally (or even more) important is to train as realistically as possible - otherwise it's just just an art without the martial component. As practiced as one may be in forms and non-contact drills or tricks, I can't expect myself to step up spontaneously do something I've never done before if and when the need arises. I've seen guys wearing cups dropped from solid hits to the groin!

I used to train with a guy who, when asked if he was wearing a cup, would reply "Dude, I wear a cup to the movie theater!" He was a beast, it was probably true  ;D


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Waxman on February 28, 2012, 06:56:38 PM
I tend to only do thrusting for show and choreography practices, even for full-on dueling.

I always employ thrusting so that it is not even in a position to hit my opponent but more there for them to parry or to catch them off guard, but I always make sure that even if my opponent doesn't parry, it will still miss them.

In my mind I pretend my opponent just dodged it with their super-reflexes.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Arakan Steele on February 28, 2012, 07:13:20 PM
The point is, as you stated,  we simply can't learn to defend against any form of attack if you're not training to defend against that attack. While safety and control is very important, equally (or even more) important is to train as realistically as possible - otherwise it's just just an art without the martial component.

What you say here is true from a "practical" martial arts standpoint. However, there are two things to consider...

1) Swordfighting is no longer a "practical" form of martial arts. How many sword fights are going on out there in the streets? (real sword fights, with someone's life on the line... not talking about putting on a show) In a street fight yes you should be as prepared as you can be from a martial arts standpoint, because your life may very well depend on it. But swordfighting has become more about "art" and less about "martial" since not everyone is walking around town with a sword on their hip anymore.

2) Talking specifically about lightsaber dueling now... lightsaber dueling is NOT a martial art. It's stage combat. Those are two different animals. Yes, there are some basic similarities, but real sword fighting is meant to defend yourself against an opponent trying to kill you. Stage combat is meant to entertain an audience. And thus, safety of your partner (notice I didn't say opponent) should be paramount, just as they should hold your safety in high regards as well.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Vrakul on February 28, 2012, 07:24:35 PM
Arakan, agreed on all points. I was specifically replying to Lucien's statement about wearing a cup in martial arts training. I bit off topic, but there you have it  ;D

Back on topic, if what you are practicing is choreographed patterns with an partner who will never thrust, then you would never have a need to defend against it. If, however, you are a part of a saber club, dueling for 'points' or what have you, then I think the same logic would apply unless there was a club-specific rule forbidding that form of attack. If you don't train to defend against that form of attack, then you can't be expected to realistically defend against that form of attack. Just sayin.

I'm not a part of a saber club, and most of my friends whom I duel with really have no practical training of their own, so it's kind of 'anything goes, and a hit is a point.' One friend of mine in particular is very tall and has very long arms, and he absolutely favors thrusting maneuvers to keep me at a distance. It's effective. I found the best way to get in on him is to outmaneuver him and take him at angles.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Arakan Steele on February 28, 2012, 07:38:49 PM
Arakan, agreed on all points. I was specifically replying to Lucien's statement about wearing a cup in martial arts training. I bit off topic, but there you have it  ;D

Back on topic, if what you are practicing is choreographed patterns with an partner who will never thrust, then you would never have a need to defend against it. If, however, you are a part of a saber club, dueling for 'points' or what have you, then I think the same logic would apply unless there was a club-specific rule forbidding that form of attack. If you don't train to defend against that form of attack, then you can't be expected to realistically defend against that form of attack. Just sayin.

I'm not a part of a saber club, and most of my friends whom I duel with really have no practical training of their own, so it's kind of 'anything goes, and a hit is a point.' One friend of mine in particular is very tall and has very long arms, and he absolutely favors thrusting maneuvers to keep me at a distance. It's effective. I found the best way to get in on him is to outmaneuver him and take him at angles.

All good points!  ;D

I think the thing is, a lot of inexperienced people get these sabers in their hands and they see all of these fancy moves in the movies and without any real martial arts experience they start learning these lightsaber moves thinking that they are taking a real martial art. They don't realize the difference between authentic martial art weapons training and stage combat training. And that's where a lot of confusion comes in.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Master Nero Attoru on February 28, 2012, 07:45:19 PM
All good points!  ;D

I think the thing is, a lot of inexperienced people get these sabers in their hands and they see all of these fancy moves in the movies and without any real martial arts experience they start learning these lightsaber moves thinking that they are taking a real martial art. They don't realize the difference between authentic martial art weapons training and stage combat training. And that's where a lot of confusion comes in.

Exactly.  It's one of the reasons why I regard my untrained friends as VASTLY more dangerous in a casual duel than Artorius.  The difference is in the control - he could hurt me if he wanted to, whereas they could hurt me whether they want to or not...

Thrusting is definitely dangerous, no question about it - there's a reason we use flexible blades and kevlar clothing in fencing.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Master Lucien Kane on February 29, 2012, 06:53:58 AM
What you say here is true from a "practical" martial arts standpoint. However, there are two things to consider...


2) Talking specifically about lightsaber dueling now... lightsaber dueling is NOT a martial art. It's stage combat. Those are two different animals. Yes, there are some basic similarities, but real sword fighting is meant to defend yourself against an opponent trying to kill you. Stage combat is meant to entertain an audience. And thus, safety of your partner (notice I didn't say opponent) should be paramount, just as they should hold your safety in high regards as well.

It doesn't have to be just a staged combat perspective. I dunno about you, but I get a certain therapeutic thrill from sparring full force with my lightsabers. Protective equipment worn properly, and proper training partners, and as Master Nero Attoru so eloquently stated proper control can allow for LED sabers to become a martial art. Not just staged combat, not to mention the satisfaction I get from executing flourishes and spins during a full contact sparring match is unrivaled except for maybe skydiving.

I spar with my sabers, and from my martial knowledge I am able to choreograph duels that are highly realistic and aesthetically pleasing... but it all stems from a higher knowledge of what actually works in combat.

That being said, I was a Marine, I have some pretty advanced tactical training. That is unrivaled from the tactical knowledge that learning how to wield a sword has given me. Let me tell you, a sword fight is ten times harder than a gunfight from a tactical perspective. I personally think that fencing, kenjutsu, iado and other sword arts be taught on the side for infantry and especially special forces type operators. Mainly because of the tactical wits it provides.

So while yes a large part of the community is primarily concerned with staged combat, which there is nothing wrong with. There are those of us who are deadly with our lightsabers. I think Master Attoru put it best Master Artorius can hurt him but chooses not to.

Mind you I do not encourage inexperienced individuals utilizing these rather dangerous props in barbarian duels without regard for life and limb, I am merely stating that for the experienced martial artist, and LED saber turns into nothing more than an extension of our bodies and of our training in whatever field that may be, and that is as real as it gets.

lightsabers are what I consider the MMA of the sword world... I would elaborate, but I feel I have ranted on for too long as it is.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Vrakul on February 29, 2012, 06:49:06 PM
Quote
There are those of us who are deadly with our lightsabers.

Recently, we had a gentleman with obvious mental issues up here in the Pacific Northwest grab a couple of plastic Ultra FX sabers at a toy store and proceed to attack customers in the aisles. He then ran out of the store with his stolen light sabers and was confronted by two patrol officers in the parking lot. When threatened, the officers attempted to subdue the man with tasers. He batted one away and knocked the other one off of him with his stolen plastic light sabers. The police then tackled and subdued the man, taking him to the hospital for mental evaluation before charging him. True story.

Now, imagine if this gentleman had been attacking people at random with two shiny new War Glaives. I believe this rather humorous story would have ended quite badly for him.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Xanedan on February 29, 2012, 08:24:21 PM
Do you think the officer would have shouted "UNLIMITED POWER!" had the taser probes connected?


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Vrakul on February 29, 2012, 08:26:28 PM
HA!  ;D


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Master Lucien Kane on February 29, 2012, 09:47:41 PM
lol See though anything can be wielded with deadly intent to some success. The LED sabers, are just more durable, and quite more deadly than the plastic ones sold in most stores.

That being said that was in your hometown? Crazy, I read about that a few weeks ago... As sad as it is, it's still quite impressive.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Vrakul on February 29, 2012, 10:19:00 PM
I'm just north of Portland, OR where that happened. The best part of that whole story were the comments on the local news web sites. Star Wars geeks like myself came out of the woodwork to comment on this guy.


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: qroon on February 29, 2012, 10:27:10 PM
Blocking/deflecting the tasers with a toy saber is like deflecting a force lightning with a saber!  ;D


Title: Re: Question for duelers... Thrusting strength?
Post by: Master Lucien Kane on February 29, 2012, 11:33:52 PM
Yeah I've gotta say that is pretty darn epic.
I want to get my wife a stun gun so she can practice this on me  :o

The cartridges for those things are expensive though lol so maybe when I'm rich and famous

Lol actually the only reason I haven't gotten my wife a taser is because I know it will be used on me

Anyways I digress, as I do not want to further derail the thread.

Thrusting is dangerous so if you are going to participate in it, make sure you have a sparring partner who is willing, protective equipment, and take it slow if you don't know what the heck you're doing.

That and....

BE WILLING TO ADMIT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING

if you aren't experienced there's nothing wrong with that, just take it slow and work your way up. Learn techniques, then learn speed, never the other way around.