Saber Forum

Greetings all! For those of you who don't know me, I'm Craig, aka Uilos. I'm one of the Resident Masters here on the boards, as well as being a member of the Senior Staff of New York Jedi and a Headmaster and resident Lore monkey for Terra Prime Lightsaber Academy. I am also the writer for the Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat Treatise that has been making the rounds for the past six years (Saberforum link: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0)

A few months ago, I began a blog based on the Lightsaber Combat community. It's a place where I'm going to share my thoughts on the community, update my thoughts on the Forms, and try to open conversation on our wacky little hobby. I will put regular posts out and share them here.

Here's the link for the Blog: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/

Lightsaber 101: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/what-is-a-lightsaber/

Form Zero and Lightsaber Ethics: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/an-elegant-weapon-for-a-more-civilized-age/

Intro to the Seven Forms: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/06/09/jungian-martial-arts-an-intro-to-the-seven-forms-of-lightsaber-combat/

Developing the Forms: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/06/17/putting-it-together-developing-the-forms/

Hope you enjoy, and hope it helps.

I will have a look on it ... but i think that it is great to find more and more good material on the web ;)

many thanks ,  this guidance needed.

I consider Master Uilos to be one of the foremost experts on the Seven Forms.  He works with us in TPLA to anchor us to the existing lore, it's quite helpful.  This blog in particular is an interesting one, I recommend taking a look if you haven't already.

Thank you for your post and all the work involved. This seems like an excellent read and a great way to shake off the dust.  ;)

New Post: This one on the Marks of Contact and Lightsaber Tactics

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=31844.msg482833;boardseen#new

Whoops! Posted the wrong link, but still a good discussion on the Forms. Here's the Combat 101 link: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/07/29/lightsaber-combat-101-marks-and-tactics/

Thanks to Sabre for the catch

Thank you for your article regarding the Grey. It was very informative and made quite a bit of sense. Even to a slightly balance-obsessed  person like myself. Much appreciated.

It is by Caffeine alone I set the Force in motion.

New Post! This one focusing on Form I: Shii Cho

https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/08/15/form-i-shii-cho/

Your work is invaluable, Master Uilos! Great read again, thank you!

New Post! This one is on Form II: Makashi. This one goes out to all the duelists. https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/08/26/form-ii-makashi/

Interesting, though there are no sources I know of for Italian falchion. And I'm used to work with Italien sources, being an instructor for Bolognese fencing. ;-)

Two new posts, both focusing on Soresu

Pt I: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/09/06/form-iii-soresu/

Pt II: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/09/14/soresu-pt-ii/

Another good article - but it shares one common misconception on fighting in general. Defence is always the main priority of a real martial art. It is only in sport that scoring becomes more important, because there is no real threat anymore. So, this should not be the most destinctive feature of Soresu (basically, every form teaches a different way of defending - Form IV by continuous movement, Form V by deceiving or overpowering, ...).
To me, Form III teaches the most obvious way of defending oneself: Blocking/parrying any incoming attack. Once the student has got this right, he can learn to counter by using the movement of the attack to place his hit.
This implies also that Soresu teaches to provoke an attack to place a counter.

I'm not sure where everyone gets these misconceptions of sport combat methods - defense is a HUGE aspect in sport fencing at the very least.  People seem to think "right of way" applies to all weapons, and somehow allows both combatants to attack with reckless abandon.  It's there to train good combat habits, like defending an attack in progress or using good form in the attack.

To give an idea of defensive methods in fencing alone, you have basic parries, counterattacks, dodging, distance parries, and point in line.  That's not counting the uses of defensive techniques in offensive ways, like second intention.  All these things could be used by a fencer in a manner consistent with Soresu, to feel an opponent out and see what his or her tendencies are.

Just figured I'd set that straight.  I'm not trying to point the finger at you specifically, but you reminded me of misconceptions I've seen all over.  I did make a video recently for TPLA to try and address those, so I should probably post it on this forum.

There's no intent to imply that defense isn't a priority in the other forms, or in martial arts at all. However, Soresu is the extreme end of that and I think it acts as a corner stone in helping to identify and differentiate the other forms from each other. So if the focus on defense feels heavy handed in this one, it has more to do with that.

Soresu is the master class on defense. How to defend other weapons, styles, body types, terrains. The goal of this form would be to know how to assess the best ways to 1) Defend themselves from attack and 2) Make the attacker deplete their resources.

While countering is essentially how a soresu user would function, I made a deliberate decision to not emphasize it. Because actively countering is the core principle of Form V, which was developed in response to the inherent passivity of the style.

That being said. Yes, a particularly trollish or sadistic soresu user could provoke and goad their opponents to attack and overextend. I can imagine the Jedi just holding their ground until they either got out of the conflict or the attacker made their own opening, and I can see a Sith effectively playing with their food for all intents and purposes.

Again, Soresus extremist take on passivity is one of the most hard to swallow parts on translating the Forms. The key thing to realize that it's not just the basics of defense, it's creating a toolbox of defense.

Your blog postings are really interesting and helpful! As a Juyo user myself, I can't wait to see what you have to say about the Form of the Vornskyr!

All these things are there in olympic fencing - but how many fencers do actually use them in competition? I have some long-time olympic fencers in my club, I've fenced epée and sabre against them and others, and what it comes down to is: you fight the way you train. No misconception.
I've fought some classical fencers who could perform all those feats you named, because they were trained to avoid being hit. Those competing in olympic fencing are trained to hit first - and that's how they fight. Most of them (and I know some fencing masters that share this view) can't even form a proper parry anymore, because the parry doesn't serve to defend - it's just there to get the right of way.

Why do olympic fencers cling to the notion that they are still practicing a martial art? It's a sport, no more, no less. You gotta train hard to become good at it - but you will not learn to actually fight a duel with real weapons anymore. Those days are long gone. But that does not make it less credible as a sport.

Just to cite an old fencing master (Marco Docciolini): "Who thinks that one can defend oneself without attacking, errs greatly."
Form III therefore has to teach a stalwart defence, but what is this good for, when the opponent doesn't play the game? The solution is to get him to play the game of the Soresu-user - and that means provoking, so the counter can be placed.
IMHO in Form V, this is done by feinting, deceiving and luring the opponent to attack in a certain way. This is actually a lot harder to do than just provoking an attack.  ;)

So's boxing and MMA, but I still wouldn't mess with them in a fight

Also, while I appreciate the conversation, I suggest dropping the condescending tone you've just exhibited here. We're all nerds with glowsticks here.

Yes - and no. The difference lies in the threat. With fists (and feet) the threat of being hurt is still very real, even with gloves. With a sport-epée it is not.

I apologize, if my words came across wrong - English is not my native language.

I do respect sport fencers for their athletic achievements, reflexes, etc. - maybe I've just had enough discussions with them on HEMA-boards. Sorry.

I have had the pleasure of working with both kinds of fighters, and in particular fencers. It's because of that that I can tell you honestly that a Shii Cho user can beat a Makashi user, and the Forms don't guarantee a win (note: it's the hands). What you're describing does tend to happen...to the amateurs. And by that I mean people who are working off the rhetoric and not adapting.

Wouldn't say otherwise. My system is loosely tied to the canonical forms, but I see Form I AND II as the base for all others. Learn the basics of two-handed, big movement fighting in Form I, add smaller, quicker movements one-handed in Form II and then explore the other forms as they emphasize certain aspects of fighting.
That's the important factor - one even the authors of the canonical novels saw, it seems. Every Jedi or Sith is adept in at least Forms I - V and knows how to switch between them in a fight. Adapting is the key to winning a fight.
But as I see it, every form has a certain range of tools in it. A kind of "grease" to make the switching easier.  ;)

I tend to avoid claiming sport fencing as a martial art, but my point was that people seem to have huge misconceptions on just how far it is removed from those arts.  The core is still there, despite what classical fencers love to claim (nothing against them, I just know they tend to have some very particular thoughts about sport fencing).

As for the techniques I mentioned, they were all stressed during my training, and utilized by some of the best fencers in the US (who I trained with regularly in high school).  My team continues to compete against fencers of this level, and I can assure you that in most cases, especially where opponents are similarly skilled, complexity in defense is a necessity.  Epee in particular, having no right of way, relies on largely the same concepts as lightsaber combat (although obviously without the cutting element).

I take no offense of course, but you'll understand how I feel it necessary to correct statements that I find rather misleading or outright wrong when it comes to fencing.  You do make a good point about the Forms though - all of them have some element of defense inherent, while Soresu concentrates on defense as a concept and philosophy.

New Post, this one on Ataru. All comments are helpful: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/form-iv-ataru/

You forgot Canne de Combat, which is closer than Capoeira (being a weapons-based martial sport).  ;)

When i say that i practice canne de combat, people always tell me about Ataru ... but Maybe Master Uilos has other opinion

Just as an illustration, as demo in the street (i am not on the video ... it is made by the club of Schiltigeim)

So, Canne de Combat: Ataru or not Ataru???? Intersting to have the opinion of a specialist of the 7 forms ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYXW3QsG1zs

That's actually a good example. Yes.

Cool ... i have my answer  :P

So, canne de combat can be considered like an Ataru style :)

It can also be considered a very higher paced Makashi. Don't think of these in absolutes and one replaces the others. Research and blend different styles and you'll get closer to the idea.

Another great read, Master Uilos! +1 to get the hundred!

Oki


As already said, i am a complete newby considering the 7 forms ;) So  i read with great interest everything i find on the forum, including your work ...

And as already said, pure canne is not terrible when dueling with light saber ... i have to adapt ... surely what you call "blend with other styles"

BUT, it is good to to know that i can classify myself as an aggressive Ataru fighter LOL ;)

They're rather abstract ideas, and VERY open to interpretation.  Master Uilos does the best job I've encountered in trying to flesh them out, and make them a bit less nebulous.  We both work with TPLA, and it's been a constant challenge to make our curriculum functional yet follow the spirit of the Forms!

The way we use the Forms is more like a progression, but there's still an aspect of specialization at later levels.  For instance, I tend to find that I lean more towards Makashi than the other Pillars (Shii-Cho, Soresu and Ataru).

I'm really just trying to write this down in a way that works for martial artists, writers, and performers can look at it and go 'this is the core of what we're aiming for'

I love Shii Cho, mostly because I love going from 'zero' to 'up in your face' in no time at all. I'm a fairly large guy. Suddenly having me barreling towards you was a great way to win matches. I also have a weird working relationship with Makashi, because most of the guys I work with are fencers of several different stripes.

Actually, i try to understand the Forms to discuss and exchange with lightsaber fans around the globe ... because it is often the first question they ask  ;D

I now understand that Ataru is aggressive and that a fighter will make a swarm of strike in order to touch only once ... and it is typically the way we fight in canne ... so if you add the "acrobatic" part of this MA ...

But i also understand that i probably do not use only Ataru. After 1 minute of constant attack, i usually have to rest a little (because of the temperature under the fencing mask ;D ) so i switch to a defense strategy (Soresu) and to a calmer attack strategy (Makashi).



And it works ;)

Funny how much HEMA and sabercombat have in common, it seems. Both are aiming at accuracy towards some source (a fictional one in this case).

The inherent problem with the Seven Forms is, that they were created mostly by non-martial artists, so their martial base is rather vague. Real-life martial arts have a broader base when it comes to tactics - especially those meant for real combat. An art with a strictly defensive focus like Soresu or an aggressive one like Ataru have a good chance of dying out rather quickly.
When it comes to real-life equivalent martial arts, IMHO we have to look at certain aspects rather than the complete art.
In the end, sabercombat has to become a new art in itself, encompassing all the aspects of the six forms (the seventh one is a purely philosophical approach, IMHO, without a seperate technical base), not just a mix-and-match of real-life martial arts.

It's not so much as a mix and match as you think (or I'm saying). I'm saying that these are the directions you should look at. These are touchstones, not direct examples. Look at these, research these, and CREATE. Some people may take that literally and just play the example of the buffet table. If it works, that's great! Others will research, absorb, and try to create something new on their own. If it works, that's great!

The inherent problem with the Forms is that because of their writing, there are never going to be One Universally Accepted style (with maybe the exception of NYJ's Shii Cho, but that has a lot to do with it being the first to work) in this community. You're going to see different versions of each form from different groups, different individuals. And that's okay. Kind of a goal of mine is to see groups get together and show each other what they've done and share, blending their ideas and their technique in to something better and possibly get closer to what we're going for.

I am not sure that the Forms were written by non martial artists ... i though that there are some Maîtres d'Armes credited on every movie of the saga.

I like the idea that forms are just "philosophy" as, on SWU, they are practiced by zillions of alien species ... with different anatomies and physiologies. So their style regarding a given form must be obviously unique.

On earth, they are practiced by zillions of geek species ... with different backgrounds and objectives. I understood that if shii cho is "Kendo" for historical reasons (i have read that kendoka were involved in the first movie), the other forms are just "key words" and there interpretation are different if you are a well known Wushu World Champion or a Cosplayer ... and none of these two is more "true" than the other.

Having done martial arts for most of my life, I'd say that the philosophy and the differing executions of the forms are really to be expected. In Kung Fu, which is most of what I've studied, all the schools teach the animal forms or styles, but no two schools teach them in exactly the same way. The first school I attended was mostly focused on a more acrobatic interpretation while the second which I was a member of for much longer took a more grounded, ruthless and direct approach to fighting that focused on direct and lethal fighting doctrines.

Long story short, I agree with Seblaise and Uilos that the forms are extremely open to interpretation between different schools and individuals and no two fighters within a form will embody it in the same way.

The Seven Forms were not written for the movies, but for Expanded Universe. They were written by Dr. David West Reynolds, an archaeologist; and Jack Bobo, a fight choreographer. The Forms, not once, appear in any of the movies specifically. They were written after Episode II's release and Nick Gallard (the choreographer for the prequels) has confirmed that he never built the fights on any style, real or fictional.

The Forms are, first and foremost, literary devices meant to characterize and add flavor to a world we only get to see the shallow end of in the prequels. All of those production stills on wookiepedia that are claimed to be "forms stances" aren't stances. They are stock poses for production. A lot of the Forms were retconned in to the Characters and fights. That's why Vader and Luke are both cited as Djem So users, because their fights were so heavily based on broadsword and kendo that it was too visually distinct to say otherwise. It's also why these Forms are so hard to nail down. Because if there was a weapons master building this stuff (as what later happened in the Hobbit movies to characterize the different armies) then we'd have clear examples of what these Forms should look like and not just a mish mash of cgi luancy.

In contrast, look at the other Star Wars Martial Art: Teras Kasi. The writer that introduced Teras Kasi has openly said that it is based primarily on the martial art Silat. That's it.

Ok, did not know that ;)

Point for improving my culture !!!

And Bob Anderson (who played Vader in the fight-scenes) actually had a firm grounding on historical European techniques (he did more of this in LotR) and sport-fencing. Funny that everybody thinks of Kendô first ...  ;)
A good example. There is no "Silat" - the word just means "dance". There are a whole bunch of different styles of Silat in Indonesia (some differing a LOT from the others). And what we see Darth Maul do in Ep. I is a mix of Chinese martial arts and acrobatics.  ;)
So, we have an author that has a certain picture in his mind, the movie and reality - and all three differ from each other.  ;D

Yes, but kendo had already been used in Ep IV and elements were kept in. Ep V and VI had the heavier Longsword motions I prefer in my fights.

Teras Kasi also was never in a movie. Just some books and a crap fighting game no one really remembers. It debut about five years before Maul or Ep I. Also, looking it up, explicitly stated to be based on Pencak Silat, which is this:

https://youtu.be/dQmaDZL_Ooo

And there is a key word that should be noted: Based On. It's based on a style, does not mean it will adhere to it perfectly.

Interesting ... For Ray Park, they casted such an Athlete that I always thought he created his own style for Darth Maul.


Lucasfilm proposed a web documentary about the evolution of saber fighting in SW. I remember they mainly told about Kendo ... but maybe i am wrong because it is in English ant there are not subtitles ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60tivujA8_E

That documentary had more to do with plugging the US Kendo team than anythibg, theybwere using Star Wars as the method. Kendo IS a part of the choreography, but most kendoka's laugh when Nick Gallard, who choreographed the entirety of the prequels, turned a standard block in to a plum blossom. So it can be argued that it's loosely based on it, yes. Loosely. Looser than what they were saying

Oki ... as i said, no subtitles. Read English is almost ok but understand someone who speaks English remains difficult :P

The "documentary" looks just like a Kendo-advertisement.  :D
Pencak means "to fight". It's like Kung Fu - different styles that are called by a collective name for outsiders. But that is nitpicking.
That's why they look a lot better.  ;)
I think he had a say as the fight-scenes were developed, but in the end choreographer and director are the ones choosing the action.

New Post, this one on Form V: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/09/26/form-v-djem-so-and-shien/

Very interesting :)

For an analogy to Shien you could take a look at I.33 - though a sword & buckler source, its tactics of binding, trapping and controlling are IMHO in line with this form (at least when it comes to saber vs. saber).
My interpretation of this aspect of Form V is centered on provoking, feinting and luring the opponent into a trap as tactical tools.

Good call. I actually do know someone who made a 'lightshield' out of a hard plastic riot shield. It could be incorporated.

Do not recall any light shield in SWU ... But i imagine that a 2nd blade can do the job ...


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

A friend made one in the early days. It made a kinda sense that someone, somewhere, would have developed a portable shield device. friend took a riot shield, some EL wire and a shock pad. From there you had translucent blue shield that lit up brighter when hit.

Sounds fun ;)

There are definitely a large variety of sources which could have parallels with Form V.  The idea of defending and attacking in tandem applies to a large number of arts, and that mentality is the reason that we (at TPLA) utilize Form V as a culmination of the previous Forms.  High percentage techniques, which allow the swordsman to successfully strike the opponent while remaining safe, are pretty much the goal!

We (fencers) see it in epee, as well as the other weapons to a certain extent.  It's even more central with weapons that employ a larger guard, like longsword.  I'd love to see someone adapt some sword and buckler techniques, but unfortunately there's not a whole lot of precedent for shields in the SW universe (at least ones used with a bladed weapon).

As I said elsewhere, the new RPG-line from FFG (which can be considered new canon) has the shield-gauntlet (projecting a round energy shield) and the energy buckler, so they are there (like the infamous lightwhip ...).

But you don't actually need a buckler to adapt the concepts. In I.33, the buckler serves two purposes: to protect the swordhand and to control the enemy's blade. These two things have to be done differently, but all other concepts (binding, winding, levering, deceiving) can be adapted rather easily. I utilize one special guard (I call it Hidden Guard, but it is derived from Underarm) in this aspect of Form V, which serves to deceive the opponent as to the actual striking distance, so he can easily be lured into a bind.

Bolognese buckler is even easier to adapt, but these concepts are more in line with Form VI.

The real problem is the polycarbonate blade, which is not really supportive of a bind.

There are two canon examples of what could be considered light shields.  The shields used by the Gungan army in Episode I, and the smaller arm shields used by the Mandolorians in the Clone Wars cartoon.  Both are capable of blocking blaster fire, so I'm going to presume they could also block a Lightsaber.

A third, now non-canon example, are the arm shields used by Durge in the original Clone Wars cartoon shorts.  He did use them to block Obi-Wan's Lightsaber in their fight.

However, to my knowledge, there is not an example of actual sword and shield combat.

I never thought about gungan shield able to stop a lightsaber. But why not ;)

Yes, I generally see those types of techniques under Form V - the bind is an important part of our TPLA Shien.  I'd say the bigger problem than the polycarbonate blade is the lack of a guard.  The blades work just fine, provided it's a heavy grade one, for binding techniques.  It's the danger of hand contact with an all cutting plasma blade that causes the biggest challenge there!

That's imminent in all forms, so I don't mention it especially here.  ;)
What makes the bind difficult is the lack of edges and the sliding of the polycarbonate. It's just difficult to control the opponents blade when you constantly slide along.

The sliding of the Polycarbonate can be used. I do not know for other weapon but using a sliding cylindrical blade, you can make the blade of your opponent slides, unbalancing him/her. It is the purpose of the "Parade en toît*" in canne, french staff and, i think, english quarterstaff ...


*Very sorry, do not know how to translate that ... hope you will know it ;)

Which definitely makes the lack of a guard all the more dangerous.  It's tricky business, using the bind with these lightsabers... but it can be done!  Definitely a different animal from a sword though.

New Post on Niman: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/10/14/form-vi-niman/

Very interesting article ;)

New Article on Jar'Kai and the study of exotic lightsaber variations: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/10/23/jarkai-and-exotic-lightsaber-styles/

Very instructive as usual ;)

Just a question, by philipino escrima, you mean Kali?? If yes, i thing the staff in Kali are very small to really mimic sabers ... but it is just my opinion ;)

The double sticks, however, are good examples of shotos.

Shotos?? (i can not translate clearly ;) )

What i mean is that in Kali, the sticks are around 45 cm and it is very closed combat (like in Boxing) ... I mean, the distance between the 2 opponents is very small ...


... But, maybe it is the way of my Kali master (i do not practice a lot, maybe 4 to 5 times a year) ;)

Shotos= lightsaber varient where the hilt and blade are significantly shorter. Often used as an offhand weapon or for shorter users. Yoda's saber is a shoto, for example.

Esrikma sticks aren't a fixed length, and are meant to aproximate knives, daggers, short swords. Though, having a pair of rattan sticks boxing your ears in is something I've avoided over the years.

Oki ... i now understand ;)


 ;D

I understand. I practice more and more canne and staff and less and less Savate Kick Boxing ... less pleasure by boxing with the years ...

As said, do not practice a lot but the Kali master of ours is fun and training session are generally based on self defense approach (maybe the reason of little stick and closed combat).

Just FYI  ;): Kail, Escrima, Arnis ... they are just names for a whole collection of styles that originate in the Phillipines. They are often referred to as FMA "Filipino Martial Arts".
The reason is, that the sticks are training tools for blades - and filipino blades tend to be short and wicked.  ;D

I beg to differ.  ;D If that were true, I would be a master, as I can say without bragging that I do use two sabers (and two swords, sword & dagger) effectively (I love my short Initiate as a companion weapon) - and I'm definitely not. At least not in my opinion.
Fighting with two weapons is just as with everything else: practice. Practice fighting with your off-hand, work on your base and it will come in time. IMHO the key is to stop thinking about Left and Right - concentrate on your main weapon first, defend with the other. Over time, you'll learn to use them more and more as a team.

Out of curiosity, in the article on Jar Kai, you mention weapons like the kusari-gama. Do you think that it would be in any way viable to make a lightsaber version of that particularly nasty weapon?

Danke Schöne ;)

Not as yet. For mostly the same reason the lightwhip does not exist in any satisfying way, no one is able to make a pliable enough EL wire.

You mean that picture of lightwhip we can see on the forum are not from "battle ready" lightwhip? It is not the good topic for that but i think about silicon and optical fiber ...

I've seen some different lightwhips out there, but unfortunately they never seem to accurately mimic the physics of an actual whip (likely due to the materials required to maintain the lit effect).  Perhaps one day.


It's partially that, but I think you're also not counting a key part of true proficiency with two weapons - mastery of the core mechanics of one.  The fact that you know how to use a single weapon effectively is what dictates your ability to use two.  Of course, training the non-dominant hand is a massive undertaking as well, but I believe that one of the most important parts of preparing for two weapons is ensuring that you've built an incredibly strong foundation.

It's that aspect that will really determine how effective you can be with two weapons, in the long run.

Quite right - I'm not really counting that, as this is essential to every aspect of fighting in general. If your base is weak, you will not get far. If your base is strong, even fancy tricks will come "by themselves" over time.
But the problem with two weapons is how our brain works. Normally, you are either right- or left-handed. You are used to focusing on one side, working with one hand. A simple shield is rather easy to use, as it doesn't require a lot of specific attention. An offensive weapon is quite different - the brain has to split up focus as both weapons can attack and defend. Even ambidextrous people have their difficulties in this regard.
That's why I begin by teaching the off-hand weapon as a defensive tool first, adding it's offensive capabilities step by step. Works good for sword & dagger and double sword so far, should be working for two sabers also.  :)

It's definitely an unusual dynamic, but I don't think there's much of a question that it provides an advantage once properly trained.  It's just a question of maneuvering the two efficiently... which is something I've been trying to train for quite some time!  Master Artorius has much more proficiency in it, I wish he were around here to join the conversation.

My recommendation, and mostly how I learned fighting with two weapons, is to master the techniques with one hand first, then master the techniques with the other hand, then work on combining them.

The most common "mistake" I see when watching a lot of people fight with two weapons can best be seen watching the Anakin/Dooku fight in Attack of the Clones.  Anakin attacks with one saber at a time, meaning it's real easy to block one saber at a time. In my opinion, if you're not going to attack with both weapons at once, your best tactic is to fight defensively, blocking/parrying with one weapon to create an opening for the other.

Speaking of Master Artorius, I need to go find that video again...

And I need to get him to record more video too...

Ok, I found (again) what I was looking for...plus some bonus material:

First up, Master Nero:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHXTmpj3l4U#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHXTmpj3l4U#ws)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEeIr2s2G0A# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEeIr2s2G0A#)

Then Master Artorius:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuEF7zkda4g#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuEF7zkda4g#ws)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMCq--vomkQ# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMCq--vomkQ#)

The second Master Artorius video is what I was originally looking for, but I found the others as well as thought I should put them up.  All of them illustrate what I meant about not attacking with one blade at a time.  Both blades should be in motion simultaneously.  It is not easy.


And I know I'm jumping ahead, but I also found Master Artorius' Vapaad dulon for when we get to Form VII.

Whoa, you broke out some old vids there Vivectius!  Good times.  You can really tell in those which one of us is more skilled with Jar Kai (hint - it's not me lol).  IIRC, Artorius actually developed a two sword style for his third Dan belt test (TKD), many years ago.  Guy is absolutely lethal with two weapons.

The Vaapad dulon is another good one, and I'm planning to chat with him about that topic and get more video rolling soon.  I have some ideas in mind for him, specifically involving Jar Kai as applied in Niman and Vaapad...

Nero, we're going to collaborate more when I move to your state.

LET'S DO IT!

It is a little off topic but i have a question about 2 weapons styles:

Maybe i do not have enough historical references but to me, 2 weapons styles were developed mainly for dueling ... During war or open field battles, i never read something about 2 weapons styles.

Are you agree with that or do you know examples of 2 weapons styles used during massive battles?

Historically there's not exactly a history of dual wielding weapons on the battlefield. You're right in saying that it is really a dueling trend. Which is not to say that in East Asia, martial artists (who occasionally did get involved in conflicts of various sizes) would not be using dual weapons. But it isn't something you'd see actual soldiers doing, even today. Because the simple fact, and I think Master Ulios and Master Nero will concur, is that it takes a serious amount of training to be able to dual wield effectively. The brain just isn't really meant for tracking that much, so its not something that you're going to see on a battlefield.

In fact, i always thought that there is nothing more efficient than a large shield on a battlefield ;)

But maybe you are right: a problem of training time for massive army ...



And maybe we should create a "Random Thoughts on Saber Combat" topic for this type of question ;)

A new thread could serve very well, as you are the more senior, I defer to your name on the author's spot. :P
But if you are counting shields as a weapon, well then. Rome, the pavisse shields of the Milanese/Genoese crossbowmen, the hoplites and many others. The use of shields in formations and to create impromptu battlefield fortifications is long and well documented.

I found quite a lot more than I expected hunting for those.  I've got about 25 tabs open on my browser of threads to go back and read through, but I'm going to link to this one now:

Master Artorius's thoughts and demonstration of Soresu: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=8308.0

Indeed, warfare was conducted by a large number of soldiers, some of which didn't have extensive training (like that required for two weapon usage).  Also, there are other considerations - the more prevalent usage of long weapons like pikes or spears, as well as the popularity of a shield among various warring cultures.

New post, this one on Juyo: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/11/15/form-vii-juyo/

That's a very fine point you make about attacking with one saber at a time, something I had not considered watching those movies. I've got to wonder how that strategy vs. the speed at which you could execute attacks even one hand at a time could overcome a single handed opponent.  This gives me a lot to put into practice.  Hmmmmm. 

Well, the advantage of two weapons is that the opponent must now account for the position of two weapons working in concert. Unfortunatley, that's also the learning curve in training with two weapons as well.

The other problem with the Jar'Kai in the prequels was that Anakin, clearly, wasn't aiming for Dooku. The choreograph was focused squarely on them attacking each other's sabers. I have a stance that the Forms are not in the movies, and Nick Gillard has confirmed that. So the Jar'Kai we see there...is not in anyway based off of real application, only what looked interesting at the time.

That's some cool insight, MU, sure gives some interesting perspective on realism in movies.  A shame really that they went for a "look" rather than "substance". I read somewhere, too, about proper sword fighting, with "manners", vs. barbarian "dirty" sword fighting where you'll notice the Jedi, similar to the Samurai, square off and introduce their swords to each other and wait for the other to be ready as well as use as not employing "dirty" tactics in the strikes. I probably didn't do it justice trying to describe the idea as I'm imagining it in my head, but hopefully I conveyed the basic concept I was thinking about.

+1 for more incredibly cool insight 🤔

There was a code of honor. Bushido, Chivalry, Code Duello, whatever have you. There are rules. And those do exist in the Star Wars universe. With the exception of Maul ambushing Qui Gon in the desert, and Finn shanking that one guy during the assault on Maz's palace, you always see this sequence of events:

- The opponents face off, and say something delcarative
- They present their arms. Both waiting for the blades to activate.
- The Fight itself.

It's a simple pattern, but nearly everyone in the movies follows it.

You can add the fight between Luke and Vader in the DeathStar in the ROTJ. The emperor tells Luke about taking his saber to kill him using the DS. Luke takes his saber and Vader makes the parry ...

This fight also begins without warning ;)

Fair point, though that one always felt off because it's more Luke vs Palpatine with Vader acting as th Emperor's proxy.

Off Topic question:

Vader wants to kill the emperor and rules the Galaxy with his son (He tells that to his son later in the movie) ... So why does he make this Parry?? By letting Luke to kill the Emperor, he lets Luke complete his journey to the Dark Side and the Emperor is no more ... so he can rule the galaxy with his son ...

My bet would be because he was lying to Luke when he tried to recruit him.

My opinion, based solely on my own experience, is that learning to fight with two sabers is harder than learning how to defend against two sabers.  Partially, I think, this is due to how many people don't have both weapons working together, they have two weapons working separately.  The Anakin/Dooku fight being an example of this (and why I always use that fight as a bad example of Jar'Kai).  Yes it was choreographed to be striking the opponents saber(s), but Anakin was still only using one weapon at a time.  This is why I dug up the old Master Artorius and Master Nero videos.  To show a good example of two blades moving and striking in concert, rather than right hand strike, then left hand strike.  I'm good with two sabers, but I would fare much, MUCH more poorly against either Master Artorius or Master Nero using Jar'Kai than I would against someone attacking with only one blade at a time.

Also Master Uilos, your post on Juyo was excellent.  I think you summed it up perfectly.

More like Vader doesn't really know what he wants. He has decades of Palpatine in his head. Palpatine, who lives on the notion of "either way, I win". The Separatists win, I win as Sidious. Republic wins, I win as Emperor. Vader dies, I get Luke. Luke dies, I break Vader's rebellious streak.

Vader wants Luke, but he is also for lack of a better term, a Junkie to the dark side and Palps is his dealer. When Palpatine is blasting Luke with Lightning, Vader is standing there debating what side to take. He knows he'll never turn Luke now, and there is no more ambiguity between him and the Emperor. He makes the third choice: save his son because he wants to, and for no other reason. No domination, no conspiracy. Knowing he would die in the attempt. He sacrificed himself, as a Jedi would, to save his son.

Thanks for your opinions and your off topic answers to my off topic question ;)

i also think that Vader is lost since he understood that Luke will not come to the Dark Side (maybe because to much chocolate in cookies ;) )

Whoa there friend, you're getting dangerously close to heresy there! There is no such thing as too much chocolate for a cookie.

 ;D

Last post of the year, my final notes and thoughts on Niman and Juyo, based on conversations with variou people in the community https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/12/01/nimanjuyo-the-masters-arts/

YAY Juyo! Really glad to read what you have to say about the art. It really sounds very familiar to me, coming from my old martial arts school where we focused on total victory. The teacher was fond of saying the fight doesn't end until the other guy never gets up again. The whole focus of our training was to do as much(preferably lethal) damage as quickly as possible. Unless I am misunderstanding the total victory side of Juyo, the school and form are very similar in their philosophy and doctrine.

Nice article ... hope to read some new ones in 2017 ;)

And I am back, this time with some back log.

The Forming of Rogue Alliance, a Stage Combat group in NYC: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/rogue-alliance/

The Illusion of Combat, a Stage Combat guideline I try to follow: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2017/01/24/the-illusion-of-combat-lightsaber-choreography-101/

A fight scene analysis of the Rey-Finn/Kylo fight from TFA: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2017/03/06/fight-analysis-kylo-renrey-and-finn-the-force-awakens-finale/

As a newbie this is very helpful. Thank you.

It was a sad day when I read this

http://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2018/04/13/goodnight-but-not-goodbye/ (http://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2018/04/13/goodnight-but-not-goodbye/)