Saber Forum

Hey everybody! We're starting a new series on the Lightspeed Saber League (http://www.lightspeed-saber.com) channel: New Move Mondays, where every Monday we'll share a short video on beginner to advanced movements to improve your lightsaber-fencing. I'll share each episode in this thread.

This week the move is called the Ringsweep or Sweep-escape, depending whom you ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXDjmFaQS2o

It is one of our expressions of Ataru, or Way of the Hawk-bat. So it's fitting that we begin this series with it, since our insignia is the Star-bat.

As always our movements are optimized for use with the Lightspeed blade only. So if you are using anything else, please take extra safety precautions when trying any of this out.

If you do try it, let us know how it works for you! And meet us back here next Monday for more moves.

Interesting! I look forward to seeing more of these kind of videos! Thanks for starting the series.

If you don't mind the question, would you mind explaining something? Why is the full rotation (as shown in the demonstration/tutorial at the beginning) needed versus what happens "In the Wild" (where you easily could have just taken a full step back after the pivot, as you basically did when you walked away)? Is it just an issue of momentum? Is it because that's just how the move is done? Admittedly, I write this having JUST seen it without having a chance to try it in application (I'll give it a go tomorrow) so maybe it's something that is obvious when attempted? But I'm too curious for an answer to wait haha.

The video example was shot around spring 2016 so I don't fully remember the details of that sparring session. But it could easily be the first time that was done. Though they look a little different, the steps taken are fundamentally the same. The example in 2016 was just a little slower, perhaps less refined. I dare say the example was a bit of luck that I was not hit, and so "walking away" was just a result of knowing I had already scored. Now that it's a codified action in the League, the movements are a bit more specific and, as a result, more effective.

This move is called a "Volte" in "canne" ... and it is very efficient ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFqh4IKSA64

So, I have never seen this before and it is fascinating! Can you tell me a little more about how this works? I assume it is like boxing but with no knockouts? Try to score as many hits as possible in each round? What is the logic behind the spinning for canne?

I am going to try to explain but, in this particular case, i think my English may be limited ... so do not hesitate to ask for clarification lol

So, first, you are right. In France (and also in others countries that imported it), canne is associated with the Savate (french kick boxing) Federation for historical reasons.

A canne assault is 3 rounds of 2 min and the winner is the one who scores hits the most according to 3 judges.

Then comes the spinning. In canne, all strikes must be armed by reaching an armed position. There are some strikes, like the "brisé", that need a spinning to reach the armed position. Here comes a vid from a club in Bordeaux to illustrate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLzWdMr2vNQ&index=2&list=PLzmyUIsesG3oSRC-iWGUas1O5xMYTjT9P

In a canne assault, to avoid complete chaos, fighter who reaches an armed position has the priority and the other fighter must (1) wait for the strike and make a parry before counter attacking or (2) make a distinctive move for a direct counter attack. "Voltes", or ringsweep as you said, is an interesting way to make that move. This is a vid from the same club of Bordeaux that illustrates some "volte"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEgj7Mis0Tc&index=13&list=PLzmyUIsesG3oSRC-iWGUas1O5xMYTjT9P

I do not know if i have answered your questions but once again, feel free to ask ;)

Thank you seblaise! That is really interesting! I am going to try some of this stuff.

Here comes a sample of what we did ... As you can see, with a 600 g sabers, it is less dynamic than with 100 g wood stick ;)

http://youtu.be/uufIItLFiCc

Thanks for sharing. You should try a Lightspeed blade ;)

Maybe you can tell me the weight of an Initiate V2 with a mid grade blade ;)


Or maybe light speed blade is not a mid grade blade ;)

Nope! Not a midgrade blade. Weighs even less but I don't know how much. Perhaps I will find out.

If I may assist, Seblaise ...
The logic of the Armé in Canne is derived from the original walking cane - which is heavier and was intended as a self-defense weapon. The whipping motion of a strike in French cane fencing serves to concentrate a lot of force in the tip AND immediate return to guard or another strike without having to absorb the force of one's own strike. It's a fluid motion, perfectly suited for the parry-riposte scheme.

The Italian variant uses the spin ("Moulinêt/Molinetto") of sabre-fencing to achieve the same. But this style never got sportified.  ;)

Of course you may ;)


This is very true ... we use the inertia of the canne ;)

And we are back! This time we are going over the Skyhook. This move is an essential counterattack if you are a shorter fencer, helping you to get an angle on opponents who would otherwise be out of reach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Xl0TABAi8

It's also a critical action because attacks directed straight at the hand can be very difficult to parry. But sometimes, parrying isn't the answer. And this is especially true in lightsaber.

Have you done the Skyhook? Give it a try and let us know what you think. Remember that it works best against FLAT SWEEPS directed right where you hand is. If you are having trouble pulling it off, keep your hands forward and low, to give the hook more room to maneuver.

As always our movements are optimized for use with the Lightspeed blade only. So if you are using anything else, please take extra safety precautions when trying any of this out.

That's a standard counter-attack in Italian canefencing (called Parata di mano), and quite similar in military sabre-fencing (a parry in Prima, hitting not the blade but the hand). Same thing with a thrust is used in Bolognese sidesword (though the thrust is harder to do).

The thing is: I wouldn't recommend this in saber combat, because of the risk of injury.
It doesn't matter how light the blade is - with enough momentum, a finger is easily broken. Though the target should be the wrist (cutting off a hand is more useful than cutting of a finger), this kind of precision is rarely seen in freefencing. Without the necessary force to push the opponents hand offline, a double-hit is almost certain, though.
So, risky with a vague chance of success, at best - at least with the kind of gloves we usually see in saber combat.

Thanks for the historical context, Althalus! I actually think a strike on the hand (or finger) is perfect since it would cut through and destroy the saber. It's also closer than the wrist so I expect it would be a better target. But I agree that the glove you're using is important. If you don't mind, what kind of gloves are you using at Saber Academy?

I agree, gloves can make or break your system.  Any time the fingers are a frequent target, I typically recommend some well fitted lacrosse/hockey/HEMA gloves.  Weapon hands are useful things, after all!

Various.  ;) My usual ones for sparring are Lajolo, designed for knife and stick fighting. Others use Red Dragon HEMA-gloves (they always collide with the sleeves of my fencing jacket, so I don't like them). But the problem with ALL gloves (and, coming from HEMA, I've seen a lot of developments) is, that the tip of the finger is virtually unprotected.
I've received a hit from below on my ring-finger, right on the tip - hurt like hell. Had the blade hit just a centimeter above, it would have hit the protective plate ...
Another danger-zone are joints, especially the thumb. Most gloves have (necessary) gaps there, and blades tend to enter just there.

So, my solution was, to make the hand (mind you, just the hand below the wrist plus fingers) not a valid target zone in competitive fighting (like in the Austrian HEMA-ruleset). The lower arm above the wrist is, though. Less crushed fingers, some black spots on the arm (which can be easily protected with guards or jacket).

But, that's a lesson I learned from HEMA-tournaments (especially long sword), where people started sniping at hands and fingers to take out technically better fighters.

That's a "depends".  ;) Some authors of the EU write about using the Force to create a protective field around the hands and hilt when dueling.
And taking off the hand above the wrist is canon.  ;D

I do understand your perspective on glove and finger safety. We have strict criteria for the gloves (not even all lacrosse gloves are acceptable) and all our blades are regulated to a certain diameter and thickness for safety. It does sneak in sometimes and sting, but nothing I have seen to be considered dangerous.


Haha yah I'm not buying it.  ;D I go with the "lay-person understanding" of the lightsaber, not the rationalizations made for super fans going so far in depth. But yah, I am aware of much of these things in the EU (which are now legends by the way! *whew*) which, in my opinion, really harm the lightsaber in terms of its unique quality.

By the way, have you tried finger tip protectors? You can insert them into the finger ends of your gloves for added protection. I'm sure you know about them already but just in case, and for anyone else reading.

Nonsense, Nero. Just use the Force!

The one's I've tried did a good job at making the grip clumsy but a rather bad job at actually protecting the fingers.  ;) Depending on the fingers and glove used, the edges of the protectors can even be a bit painful over time themselves.

I'm still waiting for the glove that will combine fine manipulation and protection - in HEMA and sabering. But I'm not holding my breath.  ;)

I'd so love to have that option ;)

Oops! A little late on this one. Introducing the Slipcut. It is, admittedly, not very new, but too important to leave out. Low-line defensive actions in lightsaber are fairly difficult. Even more so in Lightspeed-saber. Use a slipcut to get the advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJHX_zJEl_I

So that's three counterattacks in a row. Next week, we're gonna showcase a primary attack. I promise it will be fairly lightsaber-exclusive (I think) :D

Jep, that's pretry familiar.  ;)
It is often used in French cane (they attack the legs quite often). In Bolognese fencing, we do this with a step called "cambiare di piedi" - a "changing of the feet". You begin with the back-slip, but instead of cutting simultanously, you let pass the attack, step back with the foot you just slipped and immediately step forward with the other.
I've found it essential to keep the muscles of the core under tension with this movement, as it makes it easier to keep ones balance while standing essentially on one foot.

You are right, it is a very familiar counter attack in French cane ... The "spectacular form" includes a jump when dodging ;)

Yes, I agree with both of you. I do teach it in a very "clean" way but in practice, my execution is much more dynamic. One of our guys, whose formal training is in eskrima, does it with a float off his toes, so he gains quite a lot of height as part of the action.

This week's move is the Dropshot. It is descended from a longsword action (I am unsure of the specific regional or ethnic tradition it comes from. I am sure Althalus will educate me  :D ) in which the pommel hand is used to thrust at the opponent. Since point-attacks are not allowed in the Lightspeed format-- and because edge alignment and power are not factors-- this has been adapted into a hand pick-off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZo3RtK0x90

My assistant is a new student and unfortunately I did not realize he was not executing the move accurately at the time of filming. It is called a "shot" for a reason, as opposed to a cut, because the attack should be extended straight from the shoulders, and not coming down high like an axe chop.

I like to shoot from the Inside Guard so as to mask my range. However, the Dropshot can certainly be executed from a forward position.

This is a great move at the beginner to intermediate level. Its major weakness, which I did not mention, is you're extremely vulnerable to a hard beat, and possible expulsion. So be careful, and hold on tight.  ;D

You called?  ;D

What you mean is the "Geiseln" ("whipping") in German longsword, but this is done to the legs only. The way you're doing it is more like a "Trivellata" in Bolognese two-handed sword, which is a "thrown point" with the left hand on the pommel (it's a rather nasty move with a sword of about 2.5 kg and 150 cm length).

Why no thrusts? Your blades flex easily enough and from what I've seen, there's sufficient protection used.

I knew you wouldn't let me down!

No thrusts because we are a sport organization, with the rules designed to encourage very dynamic and exciting play. Anything that tends to stall the match is removed. For a tool designed to mimic a weightless blade, actions like point -in-line and other point attacks are too powerful, and almost completely negate all other techniques. The game becomes even more defensive than epee. Therefore we disallow point attacks.

That's an explanation I can understand, though my experiences differ. IMHO it all stands and falls with how you handle double-hits.
Contra-tempo, at is called in fencing, is often tried but seldom done right, so it mostly results in a double-hit. If they can win a fight by double-hitting, this will be a valid tactical option, if they can't, (bad) thrusting in tempo will become less useful.

Especially when fighting one-handed, I find thrusts to be less useful in saber. Thrusts are fast, but linear, so they are easily displaced or voided and leave the attacker open for a counter-cut. So, we use them, but interestingly, they are far less often used than with steel.

Actually, these blades don't really flex in a fashion to allow safe thrusting.  Even as someone with a heavy background in point actions, I try to avoid it in most cases for safety reasons.  The shape of the blade doesn't allow for flexing like, say, a longsword would.

Exactly. In fact I took a pretty hard thrust to the right pectoral last night. Probably the worst one I ever received. Can't even imagine if it were a 1" heavy. Coulda broke a rib.

When I first started in lightsaber, the group I joined had no real rules. I used my epee background and used lots of subtle disengagements and point-attacks. Worked great, except I saw the way my opponents would recoil and scrunch up their bodies on even "moderate" contact. And I realized how dangerous it was. I resolved never to use thrusts again, and eventually that became the rule. Even when we moved to the lighter blade. It still packs a punch. Probably won't break bones, but can still deal deep damage to muscle tissue.

Probably we should define the term "safe thrusting".
Our steel sideswords flex with about 20 pounds of pressure, but have a point that has an arrow-blunt on. So, thats a diameter of about 1 Centimeter.
I haven't weighted the saber blades, but the mid-grades may flex with about 30 pounds (that would be the amount that's required of a longsword in Austrian HEMA rules, also with arrow-blunt point) but have a point of about 2,5 Centimeters.
So, that's essentially the same pressure as a longsword, distributed over double the surface.

Heavy-grades are an entirely different thing, behaving more like pole-arms in this regard.

The discussion's reminding me a lot of those I had ten years ago in HEMA.  ;D

I should try using an old midgrade blade for some destructive tests.  I've never found them to flex along that axis (since they're completely symmetrical, without an edge), but I'd be willing to try on an inanimate object!

Episode 6! This time it's the Full Moon Beat-attack, sometimes just called the Moon-beat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IUOk8eI1us&list=PLCMyxWzNT0g1GQIgjC4y-_OymcXMMy6E7&index=6

This is a really powerful move. Even using a Lightspeed blade we are hesitant to demonstrate it at full power on eachother. We don't recommend it for use with a heavygrade. But if you do it anyway, please be very, very careful.

As stated in the notations and in the in-match example, it doesn't have to be a beat-attack. It can also serve as a parry against lower strikes. It is also an excellent deflector against posting (pommeling) opponents.

Funny thing in the video: Castle demonstrates the countermove to the Moon-beat (or any kind of beat, really), which is a disengagement. *sigh* worst assistant ever!

Interesting  ... Looks like a mixture of a long sword blade-beat and a coward's hand-snipe.  ;D
To me, it's too complex a move to efficiently use in free-play. And IMHO it's easy to counter - disengage and attack, retreat after the beat and counter, etc.
Blade-beats like this are mostly used with an immediate closing-in, often a cut to the head.
I'm using the reverse to this move sometimes - beating the blade with a one-handed grip and switching to a two-handed grip on the closing for the strike.

Wouldn't change much. Most of the force is used in the blade-beat anyway.

How DARE you sir!  ;)

It is not my intention to show people what are THE BEST moves. Only to show the variety of options available in Lightspeed-saber fencing, and ostensibly, in authentic lightsabery. If they can work once, they can work again, but certainly not all the time. That said, yes, the move-- like all moves-- definitely has its countermoves, as my assistant demonstrated instinctively.

As for the power: much more of the weight is going to be "in the cut" due to the pommel grip, and you are attacking with the full shoulder. It could hit much harder than you think, especially with a heavygrade. At the very least, you should not target the hand unless you are wearing HEMA gloves or an actual gauntlet. Not even the best lacrosse gloves will protect against such a hit.

The thing is: with a HG, the balance of the saber changes, so won't be able to power the strike like you can with the light blade. Most people find it challenging to hit a small target like the hand with the hand on the pommel anyway (with a HG). They need a strong wrist to keep the blade on target.

That's allright - I'm just playing Advocatus Diaboli here. To me, the hand would not be primary target in this technique. I would close in after the beat and aim the strike at the head (even with one hand).

OK, tried the move with a HG blade - don't think it's really dangerous to the opponent, more for oneself.  ;D Puts quite a lot of strain on the elbow and lower arm. Wouldn't count on hitting anything that way - and beware of missing.  ;)

Okay, so we're agreed. Let's not do it with a heavygrade.  ;D And I think I know what you're talking about when you miss. And hit the ground, yes? Oh boy it's bad isn't it XD

Not exactly - it's more about the pain in the elbow trying to keep the blade from hitting the ground. It's a lot of leverage you have to counter here.

With a MG blade, I'd still target the head, not the hand.  ;)