Saber Forum

Let me preface this by saying Nero, if you move this over into the sword arts section I swear to god we are going to have words! I have a post on this over there and it's focus is different. This one belongs here. Now with that out of the way, please consider this not only my semi annual ambassadorial attempt, but the fruits of my research that I thought might be of interest to those in the community interested in the interpretation of world cultures and their forms of combat into this hobby.

My Bias
To begin, I am a flow artist, so most of what I do gets considered by those of you with a more dueling mindset to be "Just swinging a saber around". It is a fair enough point, a lot of what I do is not intended for combat. Still, I have always maintained that it is relevant to combat in the same way that a lot of sword arts are. It teaches coordination, range of movement, and familiarity with the saber that translates into martial skill. This has been a hard point to sell people on over the years, but so be it. Apparently though, it is not just me: the Cossacks agree.

The Context
Some years ago, when I was setting up the saber artistry section of this forum, I was looking around for how different cultures used swords in non martial presentations like dance. I found this video.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OuaMsaSiQU
I only found the one video like this but was impressed at the time. From this video, I learned what I later called the wing spin in my recent tutorial reboot focused on what I call Niman. Discussion on that was started here but moved over into the saber artistry section. A few years later, a video poped up on a few places on facebook. I don't have that link, but it was of a competition in which Russians were doing things similar to this
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTtJOWQTmKA
I though "that looks pretty darn familiar" and determined to look into it. Apparently this was a thing, but what was it?

Meet the Shashka/adyghe
(http://aksem62.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Old-Cossack-saber.jpg)
The Shashka is a single handed, guardless sword used in Russian, Cossack, or Circassian sword arts. Guardless sword...hmmmm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shashka
So why was this so hard to find? 2 reasons: most of the material is in Russian, and it is almost a dead art. Turns out, in the USSR, the ownership of a Shashka was illegal. Their use was preserved in certain circles, but it has been dwindling. In recent years, a new interest in how different cultures approached martial arts has seen it start to rebuild and it looks like this
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARlHAqd2820

Continued in next post for embedding purposes...

Use of a Shashka
Now to some of you, that might have looked silly but it should have looked familiar. But was it combat? let me answer and say that Cossacks loved their swords. From the age of 7 or 8 they would practice at least a couple hours a day with them. They practiced strikes and movement. The Shashka was used in war and in culture. The thing is that much of the technique was similar.
http://aksem62.com/traditional-cossack-weapons-2/the-use-of-cossack-shashka/
https://singdancefight.com/2014/12/21/how-to-use-a-shashka-fighting-techniques/
https://singdancefight.com/2014/12/22/how-to-use-dance-with-a-shashka/
Here we see it in combat drills.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHQMm-Enj-Y
Here in dance
www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdhlFyC70bs
And here in hidden strikes (a mix in which strikes can come from places that don't look like strikes.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKCchcBv-jc

So I was intrigued. This was what i had been saying about the marriage of combat and art. It was what I saw in places like kung fu and in some forms of rapier. There were also some neat combos in there. Most of these movement were things I knew (like the obi/ani) it was just a matter of timing, isolation and flow. I decided to give it a shot. I spent some time getting translated search terms, watched a few videos, and, after a couple practice sessions, this is what I had
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmR_UJYf5Ng
I didn't think it was too shabby. Of course I posted it..and low and behold I got a lot of encouragement. Then someone said "sure if you want to just spin a sword around" at which point, I envisioned a ancient Cossack with 50 years of sword experience disemboweling them while they typed the comment. It helped.

Very fascinating Cephalus. Thanks for sharing this, -1

And here's the catch: As the Cossack culture was illegal after the fall of the Czar, those things survived as folklore - mostly dancing. Much like in any other part of the world, where such things happened, martial arts got transformed into something new - dance, sport, show.
As with modern Wushu, those forms have their roots in useful techniques, but by now, they are just tradition. Most of them where meant as exercises anyway, not actual fighting techniques.

Today, the Shashka is used in Systema - and most of those vids get bashed in martial arts communities all over the world. Mostly rightfully so.

What's more, the Shashka is a cavalry-sword, meaning it's intended use is from horseback. Most of those spins are therefore practice to use the blade while riding a horse. We find similiar exercises in British and Hungarian cavalry-manuals - and, of course, Polish sabre.

I've handled a Shashka and the thing is a beast. The point of balance is so far forward (like with most cavalry-swords), as to lend itself perfectly for those swings to both sides of the rider. But try to chop with it - it almost tears your shoulder. No resemblance to a lightsaber.  ;)
Would be hard to find one today - most of them died in the fire of MGs in the Revolution, WWI and WWII.

My imagination is populated by many bloodthirsty characters. Realism is not a requirement.

Neat to find someone who has used one. I really need to get a couple.

I don't know if there is much besides HEMA and kendo that didn't get outlawed and have to hide. I am sure there is, but it does seem to happen a lot. Arnis, capoeira, Kung fu, sheleighleigh, etc.

At any rate, these looked a lot more like combat.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9yNDZF5_Q
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdgRSsHobJI&t=35s
The guys at about 1 min in on the second video are particularly good.

That is the point ... In France, the Napoleonian Cavalry Saber is quite the same except that it has a guard.

As Althalus said, most of the 19th Century European armies have this type of sword for their light cavalry. Here, its use remains in the Republican Guard and they traine also with cane. So, for protocolar events, when they use their sabers, RG make a lot of spin.

However, very nice topic DC, have a point for that ;)


Also, i love this vid



and just to show you that this type of Dance/Shadow is real combat training and to illustrate that you can find the same type of material from a lot of HEMA communities, here comes a vids from French Canne :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXkr2M37ihU

If you look at the first vid, this is a basic cutting exercise, very similar to those done in Polish sabre (most of the western military sabre-schools have a different way of moving).
Looks like a staged fight at some fair. Especially the last part screams "PRETENDING" out loud.  ;D
Most is more a kind of juggling than actual sword-fighting (which is fine and an art to itself!).
"Spiegelfechten", shadow-boxing, etc. whatever you want to call it, has been a part of martial arts training at every time and in every culture. When it comes to the question of "do these moves have combat relevance", though, one has to look a bit harder.
Spins behind the back definitly will get you killed in combat with blades - at least if you are not fighting unarmed children.  ;) But they serve to loosen the muscles of the shoulders and lower back for the necessary movement when fighting from the saddle.

We are on a LightSaber forum !!!!

(http://imperialtalker.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/younglings.jpg?w=600)

 ;D That explains a lot about that final fight ...  ;D

;D

I can not wait to watch DC's adaptation of Shashka!!!!

Upon reviewing this post, I actually don't plan to move it anywhere.  Unlike your previous post, which was an attempt to bridge the gap which didn't quite get deep enough into combat, this one actually presents a martial art in a combat context.  There's clearly a heavy emphasis on the "art" portion, likely due to many years of atrophy when the weapon was banned, but it does seem that some practicality remains.

Still, as a longtime Mod who strives to provide a fair and helpful service to this forum, I don't recommend calling me out like this in the future.  I'll assume this time was merely a joke, and enjoy it as such.

Here's where the "combat" relevant question comes in - with your demonstration, what is your intent with the techniques shown?  Are you interpreting the videos you posted, extrapolating the purpose of techniques?  This section is for discussion of the use of the lightsaber in combat, so while this thread has definite potential, I'd like to see some real talk about what the movements in these videos can do for us.  The first couple are very clearly dancing, while the latter few start to investigate the combat capability to some degree.

Some interesting points by Althalus, although I can't comment (having no extensive knowledge of this particular weapon).  However, being interested in the evolution of bladed weapons, I do agree that there's a common shape and weighting to swords wielded from horseback, which typically makes them much less practical on foot.  I'd be curious to see someone with a focus in Polish saber weigh in on the discussion.

I await your answer. For me combat is defined as a physical struggle for dominance between two or more persons. Webster defines combat as follows:

Definition of combat

1 :a fight or contest between individuals or groups
2 :conflict, controversy
3 :active fighting in a war

That being said anything in a combat post should "Cut the fat" (No I will not apologize for the pun).


Realism is a requirement for discussions in this content area. Like Nero I have never handled a Shashka, but if the weight distribution is as Althalus I wouldn't want to either.

I typically refrain from anything combat related via text. That being said, the little flower and plum blossom flourish is two things in one from my training background. One, it helps understand simple movement and is first used as a warmup and coordination drill. Second, in MeiHuaQuan, the Plum Blossom is used as a Progressive indirect attack. I see valid points on both sides when it is argued that it is the " senseless " spin. Most the time this is said from a person who is HEMA trained or trains in a Japanese sword/weapon art. Personally, when I spar, I never use any spins if it is against someone who is trained. Especially behind the back....due to my Kali background.

If I do use it, I use the ABD method personally. ( JKD terms. Attack by Drawing. )

" Absorb what is useful. Discard what is not. Add what is uniquely your own. " - Bruce Lee


P.S. - Honestly, when it comes down to it, research your own experience. I cannot tell you how many times a HEMA practitioner see's the Kali version of a " lunge " thrust attack and is dumbfounded. We feel the same way about the fencing thrust. They both have their place.  ( not the same topic, I know, but it comes up almost every time If they have a European Martial Arts background. )

To start, the comment in regard to Nero was meant in jest. It was a lighthearted reference to a long standing set of differences of opinion that are no doubt fated to continue. It was basically to say, I expect that what follows will meet with disagreement and accept it. I might have helped if  had added a "shakes fist" emoji or some such.

Now to the comment about cutting the fat. No. Just no. I have long held that a conversation about hitting things must not always be just about hitting things. This point is part of the basis for my philosophy. My take away from the videos and purpose in showing them was that the moves in the dance videos were a variation of the same moves in the combat videos. That is to say that the skill sets are transferable to some extent. As a relation to combat or the struggle between individuals, familiarity with the motion of a blade around the body is strictly speaking a combat skill. The hidden strike video was a video demonstrating the ways that the moves in the dance videos will move the blades between positions from which an attack or strike may be made. Just because there are no strikes does not mean that the technique has no efficacy so long as the potential for strikes exists and is enhanced through the technique.

That was my purpose in my translation of the techniques in my video. I was interested in the new ranges of motion opened up in the videos and the ways to have a blade moving in such a way that it does not hinder or limit the movement of another blade. That concept is central to two weapon fighting. If your blades get in each others way you have a real problem. The dance, as I see it in the technique, was a practice routine used by very combat oriented individuals to create a fluidity that would be functionally useful. I like to think that my ability to do these things gives me access to a language of movement that has all kinds of application, among which would be my ability to move my blade into an opponent.

That language of movement is a conversation beyond "what is the best way to hit someone". Yet still it is a combat conversation. There is value to the question "what isa different way to hit someone" just as there is value to the question "what is a good way to avoid being hit". In a chess game, there is a lot to be said for the unusual move. If the focus is always on pure efficacy and trimming the fat, you lose not just the art and beauty of the game, but you sacrifice results. That is why I shared this here, not just to lend validity to something that I am tired of being relegated to a second class status, but rather to offer variety into a discussion that tends to get too bogged down in result based thinking. Not every chess move will place the opposing king in check. Some will place your own in danger. A player who wants to be a better player should maybe try learning to do the latter as a way to improve their ability to do the former.

That said, there is also a benefit to having a basis of comparison and expanding vocabulary. If one looks at immediate results, I doubt anything will ever approach a simple thrust. But what happens if, accepting this, you just learn how to thrust? The moves of these people may look goofy and they may get you hit. I could say the same for that Kendo stance where you lead with your face. That does not mean that it is of no use. This kind of spinning is about blade angle and position. It is about transitions and mobility. If a slash fails, it is about getting to another in a more fluid way than parry and repost. In that way, it is more about the next move than the current. The creation of a barrage as you saw in the choreographed piece. At least that is how I see it.

I do see where you're going with this, truly.  I'm very open to new methods, and in fact one of my greatest interests is the commonality in techniques between arts.  In the interest of that, let's break these down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHQMm-Enj-Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9yNDZF5_Q

These show some basic cuts, and have a strong resemblance to Polish saber (which isn't surprising).  Do we have an idea of this person's skill level?  The cuts themselves are of mixed quality, but I'll let Master Artorius weigh in on that aspect in particular.  I'm still not sure about the use of the plum blossom (Obi-Ani) technique in this particular set of circumstances.  Perhaps the circular motions you're emulating are to compensate for an overly blade heavy weapon?  As we discussed previously, this was designed for horseback, so some adaptation would be necessary to make it work on foot.  Regardless, there are some similar elements in the TPLA Soresu and Ataru (which are linked intrinsically), with angular momentum being applied as force during attacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdgRSsHobJI

^This video contains very little practical usage.  It shows largely the modern dance applications, with the two combatants in the middle performing a choreographed fight.  That said, the choreography could easily be performed with a lightsaber to great effect.

Overall, I see a lot of similarity (in the practical demonstrations) with other heavy, curved cutting weapons such as the saber.  This definitely shows that there is a level of combat applicability here, although it seems completely absent in the more dance-heavy videos.  There appears to be a large gap between the traditional, martial origins of the weapon and the more modern artistic uses.  Of course, this is not unlike most martial arts, lightsaber included (hence the two sections on this forum).  The period of time when the usage of the sword dwindled is clearly the biggest source of this.

FYI, my personal favorite site for swords is Kult of Athena.  They seem to have some nice options for the shashka:  http://kultofathena.com/s_results.asp?search=shashka&submit=Search

Also, you may be interested to check out something like this.  I'm no historian, so I couldn't verify the claim about it being the "oldest martial art", but it was something that intrigued me ever since I saw it in person last year in India.  The sword work is not unlike that seen in the Chinese dao, which is essentially another saber much like the shashka.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI84oM_bJeg

That last video was very cool. Thanks for that. Some of the stuff around the 1 min mark and the 5 min mark was pretty familiar looking as well.

As to the plum flower and the performance/dance videos, my way of thinking about it goes to that video on the hidden strikes. If someone were standing in front of that guy, they could easily have taken him down with a thrust. However, that is thinking of things from a dueling mindset, and in SW cannon as in history, dueling is much more rare than open combat. I am only just getting into the Shashka stuff and may be off base, but I can only imagine that these people were more concerned with a battlefield or brawl than with an organized sport encounter. Take for instance that first draw and slice maneuver.

I like to think of that repeating... I call it a wing spin... from the dance videos as a holding pattern. I use it in performance, because it is a low exertion move that has a lot of range and is easy to move with. It stays off your feet and is easy to isolate. If you do it in a pattern and it gets to be second nature, you can strike with it from any point in the rotation. The strike comes from whatever place the sword was and comes with a force built on the momentum of the blade. It is easier for people to try this and see for themselves than it is for me to understand it fully. Try the full 5 beat spin on repeat. The obi-ani to the over the shoulder. Get it down and then try just slicing either forward or to the side at random times. The strike is easy, forceful, and easily falls into a second or third strike or back into the pattern.

Basically it is like a ready position but the blade is moving which means that the potential for attack is different at different points. As the dancers show, it is also possible to change the direction of the body entirely while not breaking pattern. Again, for dueling, this is just a movement vocabulary as far as I can see. In a more active setting where a combatant would have to close and complete quickly as they may be getting attacked from any quarter by someone else, I feel it would add advantage. Not only do you have a fluidity of direction for defense, but you have deterrence, and quite possibly the possibility of an accidental attack or parry. As an attacker, it could provide cover during closing.

To be clear, most of this is postulation. I like it for the movement vocabulary I mention. I just can't think that if these parts, no matter how degenerate, come from an established combat practice, there must be more to them than wasted moves.

Thanks also for the Kult of Athena link. I bought a rapier from them once upon a time. I had forgotten about them since. I will see what they have.

The thing with the Shashka as with the Polish sabre and some other (mostly cavalry) swords is, that it is crictical to keep it in motion. Every weapon with the PoB that far out has the problem of overcoming inertia. When in motion, intertia can be put to use - as long as the motion is not stopped (by a hit or parry), it is rather easy to keep up the movement. But from a stand-still, it takes a lot of force to initiate movement.
The next problem is, that inertia makes it hard to change directions of movement. The most efficient way is to use circular moves instead of sharp changes of directions.

Taking all these things into account, it is only natural that the method looks like it does. Imagine this on horseback: the movement of the horse makes it easier to start the motion of the blade. Keeping it in motion adds the power of the horse to every swing, making it cut through foot-soldiers with ease.
The only thing they would need to do is, turning the blade into different directions, without breaking the flow too much. And that's where those exercises come from.

Yea, just about that was my understanding as well. That said, there is a lot more similarity in the weapon I suspect. I will let you know when I get a shashka, but I can say that if you have an initiate with a HG blade in it, inertia is definitely something to consider. The POB gets to be just shy of half way down the blade.

Depends a lot on the hilt used. I have some, where the PoB is somewhere about 5 - 10 cm from the hilt and that's about the PoB of a sidesword. Most cavalry sabres tend to go into the 15 - 20 cm direction, some even more (I have quite a collection of originals and replicas alike here ...).

I wouldn't say it's quite that extreme, but I definitely get your point.  I have some extremely lightweight hilts (including ones I make from PVC) which create an interesting dynamic when paired with heavier blades.  In general, I get the sense that the average person tends to be surprised at how blade-heavy most real swords can be, even those with a POB closer to the hilt.  We don't tend to think of the sword as a tool, but that's essentially what it is - a tool for killing.  As such, it's designed to make the task as easy as possible for the user.  The correct usage of the weapon entails letting it do the work, with the swordsman simply providing intent and direction.

That aspect of swordsmanship, combined with the battlefield methodology you mentioned, is what I try to emphasize with Shii-Cho.  The idea of a basic Form like Shii-Cho is that anyone could pick up a weapon and use it effectively, and as such the techniques utilize the weapon's momentum (hence the large amplitude cuts that most people associate with it).

Also, another weapon along the same lines as the shashka that I find interesting is the bagua dao, shown in this episode of Sword Lab.  Just some more educational material to consider.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znwni04WQL0

I think you misunderstand the intent. We are past the question of does this stuff benefit sabering, it is now a matter of HOW does it benefit sabering? TPLA has always held that performance based martial arts can give very high levels of coordination, strength, agility, and athleticism and are therefore, not irrelevant to fighting. BUT fighting is fighting, training is training, and dancing is dancing. While it is an interesting anthropological and historical curiosity that they preserved their sword culture to some extent in dance ( a common thing as it turns out), it is not evidence that these dances constitute some sort of training regimen.



The skills and benefit you get from the practice of the saber dance is more global and general than specific for swordplay. You would get similar benefit from learning contact juggling or close embrace tango. The argument that we are making is simple, while Spinning and orbits are basic skills and exercises, and train generalized skills, they are NOT fundamental to the practice. Just as drill team acrobatics obviously show a high degree of skill and precision, both qualities that are essential to shooting and marksmanship. However, these exercises do NOT train one to actually fire the weapon and hit the target.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLi9SayY4AY



Yes fine, discussions about conditioning, skill training, games, fitness and other things definitely come into play in discussion of combat. No one is arguing with that point. And no one is making the point that spinning or what not is completely useless for combat training. But something that strikes me when looking at the videos you posted, there doesn’t seem to be anything novel. The biomechanics are pretty much the standard ones given when talking about this stuff. As I sad before, the dancing looks similarly useful to other types of dance with an object as far as benefit goes. The cut video is well done, truth be told, he is a good cutter. But, the cuts he actually throws are just standard frontal plane cuts. There are some introductory flourishes and the jump spin in there, but the actual cut is chambered and thrown as any common cut is thrown. I guess I am wondering how is it not just doing a bunch of stuff before executing a simple and conventional technique?

As I said, no argument here, we have discussed it several times in the past and continue to do so. I’m not sure why you think we think we do not accept this practice as training. But, as I said, we are past the question of is it applicable and on to the “how is it applicable” phase. The “fat” we are looking for is the HOW not the IF.

Here are our videos on the topic if anyone is interested:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwzB9ayhLV0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq6QOUx4x_E

But with this tradition, it seems to me that the line is not so clearly drawn. Dancing is training, training is dancing, fighting is training, etc. Unlike a tango having a set of movements that merely condition the body, these dances are composed of the combat techniques themselves. I don't think you can easily draw the line and separate the discussion.


Fair question but mostly momentum I think. I doubt he could have made a couple of those cuts without the flourish. If you try it with an empty hand, you can displace more air if you duplicate the movement of a flourish before you move your hand than you can if you just move your hand. So basically, it seems to me that you hit harder, and if the blade is already moving in the pattern, more quickly. If that does not make sense, I will have to film you a video.


I think if you look at my track record with posting about stuff like this in this sub board over the last few years, this one should answer itself.

I know very little about actual sword fighting, but this thread has been very interesting to read. I love learning about this stuff, so that makes it even better. Lots of interesting discussion for me to chew on.

This somehow reminds me of Capoeira:
https://theculturetrip.com/south-america/brazil/articles/disguised-in-dance-the-secret-history-of-capoeira/
"Hidden in the musical and rhythmical elements of the form, violent kicks were disguised as passionate dance movements..."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXJkdCD_VDc

I don't know what you are reacting to when you say that. To me, the saber dance of the cossacks and the actual saber fighting of the region appear totally distinct in performance and intent. From a historical POV as well, this seems less of a thin line than even Chinese martial art. The example of Capoeira is a far better example of dance, ritual and martial art combining into a new practice or being directly related to conflict.  Here it seems pretty clear. The dance is a demonstration not a training regimen. You can still extract useful information out of it, but you would need some prior knowledge or training in sword fighting to do it very well.

Not from what I am seeing. The spins and flourishes end at the chamber for the cut and stop. I don't see any momentum being transferred. That's y problem with it. The spins and flourishes are not related to the cut at the end. It's just spin, spin, chamber strike. Like doing a bunch of twirls with your pistol before shooting right a target in front of you conventionally. The previous movements don't have any relation to the action being performed.

I think you might be overstating your argument.

I can understand your stance on the first point as the result of your stance on the second. If you don't see how any momentum is transferred then it is easy to see that the moves are wasted and purely ornamental. I would argue that they are not as it is. I will add a video to my queue to try to show this. That queue is a bit backed up at the moment though. In the meantime, did you try it out? Throw a cut from ready and then one at the end of an eclipse spin or after an over the shoulder. For me, the difference in speed and strength is striking (pun intended).

I can throw cuts from every position and do every time I practice cuts without any of the flourishes.

They are as follows:
1.a standard cut from the unsheathing.
2.A body spin to a cut-again a common cut.
3.Spin behind the back to the front hip then an upward cut across.
4.Spin BTB reverse the direction, and stops it and cuts horizontally.
5.Same cut as 3 without the BTB spin and larger swings before.
6.BTB spin, stop to a chop down, swing up, then chop down again.
7.Spin up to chamber at shoulder, a cut down and across.
8.Spin, stop, chop down, stop, chop up.
9.Essentially the same as #2 but with a jump spin rather than a running spin.
10.Pretty much the same except coming from more over the head.

Also, I would have a better time seeing these things as connected if he continued after the cut or moved through a space quickly cutting multiple targets. Here he doesn’t even alway remain in control of the weapon after the cut. IF some one was spinning performed the cut and kept spinning without stopping would be nice too.

Most uses are not with the intent on adding momentum but rather moving the blade from position to position.  More like what is displayed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yegd3YpjmWY

Also stop putting words in my mouth. I never said they were "purely ornamental". That's your dichotomy. Not mine. I believe they should be trained and have always stated that. But I don't think that saber dances and spinning routines are going to teach you jack about using the sword to defend yourself or hurt some one.