Saber Forum

So with my first saber hopefully arriving soon I've been practicing with my PVC pipe sabers but also pouring over Star Wars media such as movies, cartoons, and even video games. I'll get right to the point, is it quite common in addition to learning various spins/moves/forms from Youtube video tutorials (the "spin zone" on here is great) to also delve into the specific moves showcased in various duels spread across all the media? I'll use The Force Unleashed 2 as my prime example. After going back and playing the game I got rather enamored by the Jar'Kai reverse grip style used by Starkiller and so as I mowed down stormtroopers for the billionth time in the game I thought "those spin moves are pretty slick, maybe I could learn them?" Breaking down the game footage in slow-mo is a bit different than going over frame by frame on a movie duel so touching back on my original question. Is this something that some of you out there have accomplished or even tried to do?

     

I haven't tried this as you describe, but I know that moves from the movies have been replicated and taught in the Spin Zone.  I also know from the behind-the-scenes videos as well as analysis videos done by TPLA and others that most (if not all) of the actual fights in the movies are based on real martial arts.  For example, if you watch Rey and Kylo's fight from the end of The Force Awakens, you'll notice that her grips and moves post-force concentration (when she starts to win) are very much the same as the way you would fight with a staff.  The actress trained for weeks with a bo staff to prep for the movie with a master.  Her fighting is based on that.  (That's why she could handle the saber - she used staff techniques modified slightly for the single-blade saber)

So you should be able to do this.  I would recommend supplementing with something like TPLA (Terra Prime Lightsaber Academy) for basics and forms, though, if you're really serious about dueling.

All good info, I'll check TPLA out then. Thank you and point for you  :)

Sifting through Youtube I was able to find this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5e0y1M04pE

It's from the first Force Unleashed game but this is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. At the same time it might be as I feared because while movie duels are grounded in reality because the actors have to actually do the moves the same can't be said for a video game. It seems there are a few transfers behind the back which appear to be done blindly. I'm a novice with spins but they look super difficult, maybe not even possible since it is all computer generated.

That all looks very doable. The one behind the back spin is the only thing that would be a bit more difficult. I am by no means a "spin master", but I am pretty sure that everything in there with a little bit of practice could easily be done.

I am sorry to dampen your enthusiasm, but I have to offer a negative opinion.
If you don't have the luck of a nearby competent light saber teacher to lead you through a decent training program, whether aimed to choreography or to combat, you might do better finding a good martial art teacher, to gain insight on your body, your posture and your movements.
Otherwise, trying to learn a posture, a movement or even worse a fighting technique, through a video, or even with an online tutor, is at best a waste of time, at worst a danger to your health.
Whatever you do, stay safe and have fun!

Wow, lots of food for thought. If you don't mind me asking how specifically do you mean it is dangerous? I mean granted there is always a potential for injury but I'm not talking about doing flips like Master Yoda in the air but just moving the saber around in a way that mimics moves shown through the media. As far as a "waste of time," aren't we all here in the Saber Combat section here for a reason? I sincerely appreciate your opposing viewpoint by the way  :)

Yes and no.

Most of the fights depicted in media are "safe" (excluding the fights in Empire and Jedi, those fights are much more "real"). You can pick it out very clearly in the Maul fight in EP1 and some in the final fight of EP3. Most strikes in these duels would not have hit, even if they were not  blocked. The moves are meant to be flashy for the sake of entertainment. Replication of those fights basically require both parties not trying to actually score hits on one another. Most spins (not all, but most) shown in the media is a waste of movement and call be a massive tell for your opponent.

That being said, such moves can be used for motivation. Linking several actual strikes together can certainly give a similar impression to the fights depicted in media.

All that being said, with time it is possible. In my time as a staff user, I've managed to find practical ways to incorporate flashy spins and other stylized moves into actual strikes. However, they mostly come mid move-set, never as an opening strike (or before I'm actually engaged to try to intimidate my opponent). That being said a staff lends itself better to such techniques, a single balded saber not as much, but it can be possible. Bear in mind this is something I've started to incorporate AFTER 10+ years of staff fighting. You can see some basic examples of this in the video below.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMzIiEOzXYM

Excellent stuff there Mimiaga, and I see what you mean about incorporating the spins into actual strikes.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit in my original post that my question was more or less primarily aimed at spins and moves in the non-combat sense and more so in the flashy sense. Like trying to get super familiar with the lightsaber as a tool. My mind keeps going to the Obi/Ani spin as the prime example. The two characters do it in the film and then dozens of tutorials exist on YouTube to teach it.

That being the case then yes, the media is an excellent place to look. Most important thing is to log time with the saber. Practice practice practice. It sounds cliche but having the weapon be an extension of your arm is very important. Control and spacial awareness of the weapon is key, for both spins and actual fighting.

I know you said that the "spin zone" is a great resource, so I assume that you have been watching the vids there, but don't stop. And if you have questions on a particular move done in any of their videos, ask them. Samhain and Cephalus are both willing to make tutorials, and I'm sure Venturous is as well (plus then I can watch the tutorials too ;D ).

I always appreciate a reasonable discussion, so I am glad you feel that way.
By chance a friend of mine wrote an article last week about this topic, and I have posted it yesterday on a FB page I sporadically write my thoughts on light saber combat in, after translating it into English (somewhat literally, I am afraid, but it should be readable).
He is a Physical Education & Sport Sciences doctor, with multiple qualifications in three martial arts and in light saber combat; I don't always agree with his opinions, but I always listen because he has earned my respect in more than one way, and in this case I think that he illustrates the point fairly well.
The crux of the matter is that learning a physical subject without physical oversight by an instructor makes you liable to self injury.

If you are interested, you can read it at:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/unchained-saber/why-you-cannot-learn-from-videos/1850749481882158/
I might do a post about this subject here sooner or later, but first I want to collect my thoughts and see if I have anything to add to his article.

Have a good one!

I appreciate it Ander, I'll give that a read for sure.

Thanks for the link Ander!  This rings true with me.  One of the things I drill into newbie's heads in karate class is that there is a right way to punch.  All of it, from the way you make a fist, how you line up your wrist, how your arm and shoulder and torso and hips move - its all important.  Hit something with a bent wrist, for example, and you're going to do damage to yourself instead of the target.  And I am CONSTANTLY folding students' thumbs down under their knuckles!  People want to hang their thumbs out for some reason!  But try to punch like that, you'll catch that thumb on something and tear ligaments in your wrist.  That way brings surgery and rehab and maybe never having full motion of your thumb again.  In the short term, you can no longer make a fist, no longer use that hand, and if you're in a real self-defense fight ... you may die.

All because you didn't tuck your thumb right.

And that's the point.  Body mechanics are critical to proper movements.  So I have to echo the concern. 

I'd also be ... careful of copying anything from animation or a video game.  The moves of the Qui Gon avatar in the video clip are pretty basic and seem sound, but I know some of the spins I've seen (saber spinning, not body spinning) are not possible.  The character is spinning the saber in an OPEN hand, apparently using the force to hold it while the hilt spins on the palm. 

Sorry.  No Real World way to replicate that...  :-)

But I digress.  If you're really on your own, one thing you should do is video yourself making the moves and then watch yourself.  Its embarrassing but also enlightening.  That way you can at leat make sure you're doing it right and not doing something funky or really off.  You can also post the video and get feed-back from others, which should also help minimize bad body mechanics and possible injury.

All excellent tips Karmack, I thank you very much and LS point for you.

I was watching this Bo staff video the other night, and there's a pretty good view of a 'behind the back' spin. Should be easily adopted to a saber(?).

https://youtu.be/ENqMy1BU2-Y?t=200

As Taegin said, those of us who frequent the "spin zone" area of the forums are happy to answer questions and even make clarification videos for anyone who is trying to figure out specific moves or is having issues with moves. I'd agree to a certain extent that you can learn moves from the movies, games, etc. You just have to be careful and pay attention to what you're looking at. For example, The Force Unleashed games are very misleading for anyone wanting to learn reverse grip moves. Starkiller always runs around in reverse grip, but as soon as he goes to strike, you'll find that he is actually just using standard grip the entire time. The moves are just so fast that it makes it seem reverse grip is being used effectively. I'd say games or more useful for learning various striking patterns.

As for movies and other sources, I would say go for it, as long as you have a way of repeating the move (especially in slow motion). Youtube is an amazing resource. When I was first learning how to use a saberstaff, I would watch videos of Ray Park spinning one at conventions and was able to see (in slow motion thanks to YT) how he was doing it. I learned a lot using the speed feature of Youtube that way.

The other part of it is just taking your preferred saber type and going in the backyard and practicing. See what moves you can discover on your own. You'd be surprised what you can come up with just by messing around like that.

I had no idea that slow-mo function was there on Youtube... wow that blows my mind. Thank you so much for that tip!

I couldn't help but smile when I read this topic. It's so classic, because I think many fans at one point or another think this... I know I looked at alot of these mediums "references" shortly before I received my 1st lightsaber to simply see what was and wasn't within the realm of possibility. I then did go on to figure out which were more achievable or practical. And still have some fun training to do or "perfect" some of these movements. I relate to the OP in this desire from a practical standpoint, but also did have several moments over the years (and in that last bit of research) seeing that some computer generated things in games ignore reality hard! Like it was mentioned in a prior post, the spinning saber on one's palm, rotating while you're transitioning through moves and it's vertical and changing orientations... just insanely impossible to "keep there" while moving in such ways. Also the times I'd see the character "cut through" their own body during a move or "reset" mid sequence to a separate position in an impossibly fast and unreasonable way. You can't teleport your lightsaber and change stances in milliseconds sadly, unless you truly are a master of the Force.

That said, I get how easy it is to injure yourself without proper form, posture, or even simple stretching. Though some moves are just truly fun to learn if you can... call it a small sense of accomplishment, or just reaching a goal you've set for yourself. It may indeed be a good idea to contact someone who's openminded and has a firm understanding behind the mechanics of such actions or the human body before hand in several cases. So they can see the clip you're taking about, and say "no you'll dislocate something even trying this, or tear several ligaments from the strain" VS "wow, ok that's cool. Not really practical, but doable. I mean I've seen interesting videos of interpretations of Ataru or flying spinning slashes that (while not always the most practical in combat) still look amazing or would seriously confuse or catch some opponents of guard at times. We all accept a certain amount of risk engaging in these things, as long as you attempt them in an informed and reasonable manner; I like people to keep reaching for the stars. Just my opinion.

An interesting topic, to be sure. The slow-motion (0.25x speed) option on YouTube has been great, both for slowing down Star Wars fight scenes as well as slowing down general martial arts videos, even some how-to or tutorial videos, where even going slower than normal to teach, some of the intricacies and nuances can be hard to pick up on purely through video, without someone helping guide you through the motions you are actually doing in person. I'm personally a big fan of Maul's saberstaff fighting style, so I often play his fight with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in slow motion, as well as his fight with Ahsoka from The Clone Wars. Yes, it is a cartoon, but they actually brought in Ray Park (Maul himself from Episode 1) and Lauren Mary Kim (who it looks like did a LOT of stunt work in The Mandalorian, including the Armorer, Fennec Shand, Koska Reeves, etc.), so a lot of it is grounded in reality, and some YouTube videos even have footage of the actual motion capture fighting between them. And there are also a handful of videos of Park spinning a saberstaff and doing light sparring with fans at various conventions, which gives another way to see his (and therefore Maul's) preferred movements, and how exactly he does them when he's just "normal" with an actual lightsaber akin to what we all use.

Nice Sifu Mace reference. He's great. He did a demo at the Vegas super show a few years back back and it was incredible. The RotS Obi Ani fight is a favorite of mine because it's when everyone began obsessing over the " Obi Ani " flourish. Friends of mine would argue that the move was created by the choreographers because it's " useless " or " senseless". Which it isn't. It's used like a P.i.A. from JKD. " Look at this hand so I can kick in the ***** " :)

Great thread!

Not the best idea for the real combat skills development, however this is great approach for the stage combat

95% of all movie fights are staged to entertain the viewer (and I support this), as real combat is pretty boring to watch for generic viewer - therefore those fights are not realistic at all
But if you want to become great at stage fighting - this is exactly what you should do as stage fighting in Hollywood top-notch