Saber Forum

Hello galactic warriors :)

I asked myself this question and i wanted to share my thoughts with you and to know yours.

Lightsaber combat as we know it can be considered from, IMO, two points of view.

1. The Movies point of view

As every combat style in cinema, lightsaber combats are designed to be spectacular and not realistic (it is also true for boxing in Rocky ...). Choreographies are based on a very large range of moves and saber stroke ... The combat must take a lot of time and space.

2. The Martial Art point of view

Lightsaber combats are seen as realistic considering other weapon based martial Arts ... These Martial Arts, of course, consider characteristics of their weapons. Moves and stroke are based on the energy/power needed to make damages.


BUT WHAT IF LIGHTSABERS REALLY EXIST?

I mean, of course they exist because of US  :P

But imagine a weapon that can make very serious damages just by "touching" your opponent ... you do not need power or even speed to kill ... you just need to touch ...

What can be a realistic fighting style with such a weapon??

To me, and it is only my opinion, it will be something like light weapon fencing (rapier or foil) ... and not saber or great sword fencing (that need power and inertia) ...

What do you think about it? What if such a weapon exists?

If they actually were lethal, I'd personally be concerned about doing damage to myself just wielding it.  One mistake...

I totally see your point though.  It really wouldn't require a great deal of skill or adeptness to completely do your opponent in...although, if he/she is just as adept...

That's one reason, for me at least, that a hilt needs to be smaller and lighter, and be nimble like a rapier or epee though too.   

Good thought Seb. :)

Staying within the laws of physics for our universe, this is not possible.  ;)
To injure, we need kinetic energy. Kinetic energy relies on motion - so a lightsaber has to be in motion to actually inflict damage.
Without motion, the only way to inflict damage is the energy of the plasma blade itself - which would just inflict burns on touch. Besides: to cut THROUGH something, you'd have to draw the line of the cut, at least.  ;)

In fact, thrusts would be the most harmless attacks - the wound is small and instantly cauterized. No internal bleeding, no gangrene ... If the thrust doesn't hit the heart, there's almost no chance of a finalizing injury. The most fatal - and most feared - wound in smallsword was the sucking chest wound.  ;)




 

Have to disagree Master  ;D

To injure, we need energy (not especially kinetic ... a flame or a Gamma ray can hurt too) ... According to the movies, the plasma blade deals enough energy to cut almost everything (look at the doors in TPM without a lot of efforts from Qui-Gon) ... He does not have to strike like someone with an Axe on a tree ...

... to me, the plasma blade can deeply and deadly burn someone just by touching him ...

... but, once again, only my opinion ;)


Of course, if you are right and if the plasma blade is cold ... then, you are right to about the thrust attacks :)  

Nope. It would just inflict a burn. Like a MIG welder - yes, it hurts, but without movement, it's just a burn.
It doesn't matter how easy it is to cut through matter - fact is, the blade has to be moved. And when the target is not stationary, it's necessary to move it even faster.  ;)

Sharp blades don't need a lot of force to cut (ESPECIALLY greatswords  ;)), edge-alignment and accelaration is more important. As the lightsaber has no edges, speed will be of a prime concern - not so much as to wound, but to hit a moving and defending opponent.

Hi.  Am tending to at least partially agree with Master A.  Isn't plasma a cool heat but still has the ability to slice,  cauterize and create fire ?!  To me a lightsaber is a physical extension of the will/desire of a wielder... made manifest through one's connection to the brain/heart of the saber which is the crystal.  Therefore the more perhaps kinetic energy one creates and redirects via dedicated movement... the more powerful and accurate the outcomes.  :)

Perhaps my thinking is less scientific and more in the realms of metaphysical possibilities.

Once again, i disagree :) , depending on the temperature it would kill ... and a blade that can easily melt steel like in TPM must be of a very VERY hight temperature with a very high calorific capacity. Then, it is just a matter of heat transmission ... but you can instantly make your blood boiling in your heart just by touching the skin of your chest ... The human body is mainly water and it is not the best thermal insulator ...

Ähm - no. Not with something like a physical blade.  ;)
IF the blade would be as hot as to do this, the very AIR would be on fire - and the wielder, being close to the blade.  ;)

Actually, the movie version is rather accurate as to how such a thing would work (given it would be possible to create it in the first place).

Sorry for double posting :)

A plasma is a state of a material ... and its temperature depends on its density ... There are plasmas that can reach 10 000 000 K ;)

Maybe i am wrong but i never read anything about the temperature of blade of a lightsaber ... so, i have always imagined that the blade is of a very hight temperature since i saw Qui-Gon cutting a steel door like some butter :)

But id you tell me that, in the SW universe, a blade is cold then yes, Master A. is right and i will make penitence on Hoth  :P

You bring up an interesting point about the doors and Qui-Gon in TPM. If we assume he had around a 36' blade then those doors were super thin, being that there was a lot of saber showing on both sides of the door as well as when they close you can see they are not very thick. Then when the blast doors are activated he can't go for another circular cutting motion because there is just too much mass so he adopts the "melting" technique by just holding the saber in one place and letting the plasma do the work. There's one instance off the top of my head that I can think of in the Clone Wars where Anakin is cutting through a Zygerrian door and you can see it is a major chore to move the blade in that classic circular pattern to get through. Not to say sabers can cut through practically anything, but it can still take some time. I like to compare it to the real world application of using a blowtorch to cut through a piece of metal (though obviously a blowtorch is less powerful than a saber). It can do it, but it doesn't happen instantaneously.

I can feel myself getting too into this, but hey, good discussion here!   :-\ :D    

Not necessary ... Air is a very different environment than the human body and its water ...

You can easily go into a sauna where it is 90°C ... but not in a swimming pool where the water is at 90°C ... :)

Ok, so, if i understood, the blade would be cold (cold plasma is about 150 to 300°C) and it could be hot if the Jedi/sith concentrates by using the Force ...

If it is like that ... i am wrong ;)

And just for fun ... i though about that for the blade :P


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductively_coupled_plasma

OK, let's do this systematically.

1.The blade of a lightsaber doesn't radiate much heat: Otherwise there would be no minor burns on superficious touches and they couldn't threaten anyone with the blade almost touching skin. In the books, those at the point feel the "heat from the blade", but it's obviously not enough to harm them at a fingers breath.

2. The blade can cut through verious materials: It does so very slow, though. Thick doors take a while to cut through, thin walls can be cut a lot faster.

3. Metal melts - but the heat disperses fast: Take Kylo's furious slashing at the console - melted metal and plasteel all around, quickly cooling off.

4. Wounds are instantly cauterized: There's almost no blood seen (GL wanted to have sword-fights without blood). What we see, though, is scorchmarks.

5. "Touches killing": Don't think so - otherwise neither Anakin nor Luke would have survived having their hand cut off.  ;)

Ok, this point is indisputable :)


Well ... for these two points, sorry, but in our Universe, the blade has to be extremely hot ... But i like the idea that Jedi/Sith can concentrate to make the blade producing this heat using the Force ... Making that not usable during a fight ...

But i think point 3 is an incoherency for cinema and entertainment purpose :)

On a side note: Heat dispersion does not depend on the heat source but on the material only. If you heat Oil and Aluminum to 500 K, Oil will stay hot a long time and Aluminum will be cold very quickly


Well .... we can also think that they are Powerful Force users so they can survive wounds that normally could kill someone  :P



But according to your first point ... well, i will be agree with you: the blade is, in its normal use, not so hot so thrust attacks are not the best ones ;)

Which has no base in movie or literature whatsoever.  ;) There are some examples of overheating saberhilts, though - some Padawans lost limbs or lives that way ...
Most of the time, saberconstruction is described as a very delicate work, only possible by using the Force, as the crystal has to be aligned so precisely, that no tool could accomplish that.
Yup, but in SW, the materials used on starships are transparisteel, plastisteel and durasteel, so there's some kind of norm.  ;) As we don't know the melting points of these materials ...
Like Qui-Gonn dying on a stab?  :P Or all those Jedi killed by blaster-bolts?  ;D

You forgot the rules in the Star Wars D6 RPG :)

Sometimes, Jedi can add some characteristics to their saber damages



I said "CAN survive" and not "MUST survive :P

I'm an FFG-SW player/GM - I just use some of the old sourcebooks and elements from their railroads ... ah, adventures.  ;D Not that the new FFG-adventures would be any better ...

That's the problem with plot-devices: they just don't allow to base any kind of argument on them.  ;)

I'm afraid you've lost me, but then again with all the technical stuff being thrown around I might have lost myself. lol

Sorry, English is not my language  ;D


I wanted to say:

The normal state of the plasma blade of a lightsaber could be "cold" (on Earth, cold plasma are about 150 to 300°C).
In some occasions (when melting the durasteel of a door for example), maybe a Jedi/Sith could make the blade "hot" (on Earth, the majority of the plasma are about 10000 °C) by using the Force ...

It would explain why the blade seems cold and why the blade can melt doors designed to stop blasts :)

I think you are exactly right except not rapier. Rapier is too heavy. Much more like foil or epee.

  Ok, well thought out and informed. But I feel the need to disagree about thrusting being negligible in it's lethality when used with a plasma blade that actively cauterizes the wounds it creates in real time. Thrusts and stabs are obscenely dangerous in this case especially. Though light sabers remove the bleeding to death part of the equation in comparison to traditional blade work, the "force required" to "cut" is the trade off which leads to my second point I'll share shortly. Mentally imagine defending yourself against a lightsaber while wielding one... the point is hard to deflect in motion, and many attacks or parries can easily transition into a thrust. So you now have a knife through butter ease of access to internal organs. Heart aside (talking human anatomy ignoring alien anatomies for the moment), severing major arteries precisely, damaging or destroying kidneys, liver, parts of brain without bisecting or decapitation, lungs, spine... one agile penetration of a few inches is lethal or debilitating to the point further combat is unlikely from the injured party.

  Secondly, true kinetic energy must be applied to manipulate the weapon. But unlike the amounts needed for traditional blades to achieve cutting, ripping, hacking damage physical material produces separating other solid matter; the plasma beam must require less. The main focus of that energy in light saber combat is reaching the target, parrying other energy blades, blaster bolts, vibro blades, etc. It's more so a matter of direction and momentum/inertia than the concern of damage. In my mind it's like Count Dooku (hailed as one of the top duelists of the order) employing finesse and efficency to kill. A properly timed thrust into an opponent in motion could easily lead to them bisecting or dismembering themselves with their own inertia.

  Third, plasma blade temperature. Much harder to debate since it's in our realm of theoretical physics trying to use something like this in small scale combat... but one thing I vaguely remember from the games sticks out. If I remember right (sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) but a lightsaber has it's focusing crystal. Previously alluded to in a post on this topic, that crystal helps focus and (pretty sure) maintain a stable energy blade. So, here comes the logical leap I made. It is a controlled plasma blade, in a universe full of shielding and other containment technologies. They have navigated sub space routes for thousands of years, so lets just say waaaaaay advanced from our perspective technologically. So, in theory, the plasma heat contained within the blade may well exceed the ambient temperature by design/ out of necessity. Or to protect the wielder as much as bystanders. Hence (going with original Sith Red blade/crystal lore) the Sith modifying their blades to be "stronger" or more destructive could expand upon that idea. Since they want to generally harm their opponents and accept a higher level of (even continual) risk to themselves if the power gained is worth it. Sorry I veered a bit away from my point to make my point which is this... Upon contact with metal, organic matter, or various similar substances the light saber (by design) could automatically adjust containment or even heat output to achieve intended results. SO potentially design changes over millennia incorporated ideas like cutting through thicker metal by super heating it more than when slicing through a tree and accidentally setting it on fire through a design flaw in essence. It seems at least plausible to me, these warriors would modify their main weapon/tool to have this versatility.
   
   My contribution to the conversation of these theories ends there for now. Dissenting from some while agreeing with others. Oh the joy of sparking the exchange of ideas, while attempting not to be senselessly rude or argumentative. At least that was the intention. I only desire to live long enough to see someone create a functional, handheld, true to traditional design, light saber!