Saber Forum

 I have been what some might call a traditionalist in my viewing of the Star Wars canon films. I have usually watched them in the order that they came out in terms of the order they were actually made and released. Several people over the years have told me I should watch them in the sequence of episodes from episode one, two, then three, and so on. Recently I decided to break tradition and finally watch them in episode sequence.  I have to say it has brought some new thoughts.  I have just finished ESB last night so I’m five films in at this point, so here are a couple of thoughts for your opinion and scrutinization:

1) I’m very impressed with the way the tech holds up in the original trilogy.  Probably more so after watching the CGI and glitz of the second series first because you expect the graphics to look a bit worse after that because even though the second series was short on story at times, they were gorgeous looking films from a visual standpoint.  In a lot of classic science fiction movies, it doesn’t always do that.  Or thinks looks very impractical in terms of set designers thoughts on style Vs. functionality.  Star Wars, on the other hand, holds up pretty darn well.  One thing that is always a pet peeve of mine is video screens.  They usually look small, crude, and glassy, like mini TV picture tubes from a bygone era or very early computer monitors of about a third of the size.  Star Trek is always the first thing that comes to mind when I think of a larger, less tradition screen.  But when Vader is in his meditation pod, we not only see a large screen, but it isn’t even square.  It’s quite stylish with cit corners.  Maybe that little detail hasn’t impressed most people, but it’s little things like that where the designers style and functionality meet and work with monsters we have today that impresses me.  And the ships, both inside and out have so much modeling, switches, and detailing that I still see new things every time I watch them.

2) On the downside, I think I noticed the flaws more in the original series.  Even if you know they are there, I think for some reason they become easier to overlook when you take them in order of release rather than from the chapters in sequence.  A couple of things that stood out most for me in this viewing was the fact Obi Wan Kenobi said he didn’t recall owning any droids when faced with R2D2s claim that he belonged to Obi Wan. I can suspend my disbelief when it comes to the droids not remembering Obi Wan because their memories could’ve been erased.  But Obi Wan’s comments seem more out of place when viewing the movies in this order.

However, as a writer, I can well understand that no matter how much planning went into George Lucas’s original story and characters, he couldn’t have foreseen how several decades between films might’ve changed up his original vision.  It’s hard going back to characters and plots after large spans of time.  Even short spans of time change up our vision to some degree because subconsciously, the ideas are still morphing in our brain even when we aren’t thinking about them.  That’s probably the chief reason why the two film series had such a different feel.  Because beyond the huge change in graphics and film equipment, there is a man who has changed creatively as well.  Very hard to try to recapture the heart behind something created that long ago and make it appear seamless.

Speaking of seamless, probably the most annoying bit of footage which stood out to me in ESB was the scene when Luke is hanging upside down in the cave of the Abomnable Snow Creature.  The way the DP cut between the scenes of Luke’s graflex laying on top of the snow, then having the front half of the hilt buried in the snow, then it’s on top of the snow again—was just bad editing.  Sometimes we have to work with what we have, but it’s an inconsistency that bothers me because it looks like one of those things where someone assumed the audience wouldn’t notice or just didn’t care.

Anyway, those are some of the high and low points from this viewing for me.  What are your thoughts?

Evolving vision really isn't an excuse for inconsistences imo.  So many theories have been put forth as to why Obi-Wan would say this.  Within Canon though I can't remember which book, currently at work so I can't look it up yet) but I belive it was the Han young readers book that had Han over hearing Obi-Wan talking quietly to Artoo and saying "its good to fly with you again old friend". 

That would have been a perfect and easy solution for that whole scene. The fact that he didn’t want to give anything away in front of Luke would’ve seemed pretty logical. I am surprised Lucas didn’t try to fix that when he did the special editions and fleshed out some things.  Of course, maybe the actor wasn’t available for scenes, but all you would have to really do is show R2-D2 and a hand on the droid and a voice overlay cut in somewhere while Luke wasn’t  around.

One of the inconsistencies that I found from watching both trilogies was the lightsaber combat.  Of course, episode 4 to 6 were the first of it's kind so they had to work with what they got at the time but Episodes 1 through 3, the saber combats and choreography are much more complex and better to look at.  The Maul vs Qui Gon and Kenobi fight was amazing.  Kenobi and Anakin vs Dooku was another great fight and of course, the Kenobi vs Anakin in ROFS were even more amazing.  Vader vs Kenobi in ANH was restrictive looking when compared to ep. 1 to 3.  I do keep in mind that Alec Guinness was pretty old by that time but if you look at Vader compared to the Rogue One version, it's like listening to a cassette tape 20 years ago and you now listen to the same song on said cassette tape and realized that it was great 20 years ago but fail in comparison to today's standards.

I didn't like that the prequels relied heavily on CGI for most of their production.  Traditional props and sets were still built and used; however, it wasn't used as much as ANH through ROTJ.  I do like the originals in that regard much better than the prequels especially when you watch it in a higher definition TV, the CGI work in the prequels look a lot less convincing. 

Overall, I love it, there were lots of things that they learn from and a lot of things evolved between trilogies and whatnot plus the fact that there are decades separating them.

I always watched the movies in episodic order. The last time I did it was after the Blu-Ray release of TLJ, and then I'll have to do it again in September, after I can finally own Solo on Blu-Ray. (I've only seen it once and I'm anxious to see it again.)

There are a couple things with Obi-Wan. First, he never owned any droids. He used droids for sure. He had at least two of them that were assigned to him in the Clone Wars time. He had R4-P17, who was built into his fighter in AOTC, then was given a body for the later model starfighers, and subsequently destroyed over Coruscant. R4-P17 was replaced by R4-G9 after that. However, he never owned either, both were droids owned by the Jedi Order, and he used them. It's possible they even came with the fighters, since you can't make hyperspace jumps without either a nav computer bigger than a fighter can hold, or an Astromech to store hyperspace coordinates to make the jumps. Now, Obi-Wan certainly should have remembered R2-D2, or should he? R2 was Padme's then Anakin's droid, and they spent some time together, then a lot of bad stuff went down and 19 years passed. Could he have forgotten R2, or simply not remembered him at first due to the time that passed and the fact that he saw a lot of droids? It's possible. However, it's more likely he wasn't being entirely truthful. After all, we can go back to the owning droids statement, which was technically true, from a certain point of view. Also, remember that droids can be reprogrammed and used by the Empire, so it's possible that he was just being cautious about a droid he hadn't seen in 19 years.

As far as lightsaber combat, who exactly taught Luke how to fight? Of course, Obi-Wan taught him a few things about the saber before he became one with the Force. There was also apparently planned but either never filmed or just cut content of Luke training with the saber under Yoda. But, against whom would he have practiced saber techniques? Clearly, not against Obi-Wan, who seemed more interested in teaching Luke lessons about the Force. So, Luke was mostly self taught. As for Obi-Wan and Vader fighting, there was a lot going on. For one thing, neither would have had much practical use for a saber in almost 20 years. So, they were rusty. Obi-Wan was old, Vader was part machine and in a cumbersome suit. Also, despite his boasts, he had to be being cautious after Obi-Wan badly defeated him previously. Also, as Luke gets better, the fights between him and Vader ramp up in the original trilogy. Now, turn back the time to when there was an entire order of Jedi. These were Jedi at the height of their abilities. They trained as younglings and apprentices against other Jedi to learn the art of lightsaber combat. The fights were done in a way to show Jedi and Sith at their absolute best. Then, when you go to the sequel trilogy, you see (once more) Rey and Kylo, who clearly aren't highly trained and the fights look rougher again. So, the fighting is a sign of the times.

Great insight on that, Scifi. The explanation of saber combat does make sense.  In regards to the new trilogy, if anyone should of had good saber combat, it should of been Kylo since he was training to become a knight so he was taught from the Grand Master himself in the new Jedi temple until he was almost killed by his own master and uncle.  Rey not fighting well makes a whole lot of sense since she was just learning about her abilities but her besting Kylo was a bit of a reach to me despite the Force awakening within her but they did explain her 'raw power' in TLJ so I guess it gives her a backstory to how she defeated Kylo the first time around.  Have a point

Kylo would definitely have had training, as well as the Knights of Ren with whom he could practice. Also, he was injured by Chewbacca in TFA before fighting Finn and Rey, plus he was trying to turn Rey, rather than kill her. (as Vader was doing with Luke too) Also, Kylo Ren's weapon is a disadvantage rather than an advantage. While it looks fierce, the cracked crystal makes the blade instable and hard to control. He has to adapt his fighting style for the unusual weapon. Rey was established to be a trained melee fighter. She had that staff that she seemed comfortable with, more so than the blaster Han gave her. Her training session in TLJ also shows that she has skill already. Though, Kylo still owns her, as he did Finn (who had melee training too) until Rey remembered she could tap into the Force.

Furthermore, I'm not sure I buy that she was untrained previously. I think it's possible her past is much more complex than being the child of nobodies from Jakku. Her memories could be a Force implant, with a truth that points to her possible training and having been to the planet Luke was on in her past coming to her in dreams.

I've never considered Rey's memories to be Force implanted, but that would make a whole lot more sense as to why she knows the Force and is drawn to it so much. I like that theory. We will see if it is true when ep. IX comes out. The other thing about Rey though, I'm not totally positive that she only ever used a staff when she was on Jakuu. Once she realized how much of a multifuntional and useful tool a staff was she probably switched to only using that, but she very well may have used something like a walking stick before. Just an idea.

I also need to thank you SFD for explaining about Obi-Wan never owning a droid. I would have, but you beat me to it.

I cant even count how many times I've watched every episode from ! through 6. I Probably watched 1 through 8 about five times.
Like Taegin and SFD said, Obi-Wan never "owned" any droids let alone R-2. and to be clear I'm just speaking about the films. As far as the discrepancies in saber combat between trilogies, Aside from the advances in film making and choreography, (trying to stick with story consistency)
In episodes 4 through 5, Vader and Obi-Wan are old, and Luke basically has no training. Every one in the prequels has mad training and recent combat experience including Dooku, and I assume Palpatine's extensive training and probable years of practice is why he's so skilled.
I believe Rey has had to fend for herself long enough, with or without a staff (I assume she picked a staff a long time ago due to it being just about the best weapon for anyone to pick up, and doubling as a great walking stick for the desert planet she was raised on), that she has probably been in the type of fight Finn watched her have defending BB-8 many times. I mean, look at the way she handles herself. Which is why I personally except her instantly having a good degree of skill with a saber. I really hope they give her a saber staff. It just makes so much sense.
As far as Kylo's saber skill, I could easily be wrong here, but I have always viewed a lightsaber as something that has a gyroscopic feel to it, and his saber being so unstable probably makes it very difficult to wield. I view this as a sign of his stubbornness and a limiting of his potential skill, therefore explaining his inability to truly wreck Rey. He's also somewhat privileged compared to Rey in my opinion. I'm not aware of a time when he had to fight for his life with a mere staff. He is the child of a princess and his uncle is Luke frickin' Skywalker! I believe he thought himself to be tougher than some random scavenger. Bad mistake that I've seen in real life time and time again.       
I don't usually ramble this long about this stuff, so thanks for listening.
And every one in this topic gets a point  for making good points and not crapping on Episode 7 or 8. I've watched episode 8 about 30 times and due to recently loosing all other episodes, >:( I think I'm about to watch it again. I'll let you all know if this is the time I decide i hate it. :)
Thanks.

Some good points and theories made here.  In terms of Rey suddenly being so good with the force, the first time I saw TFA, I fell into the same questions most people had about the reasons behind all that.  Did this mean she was (or would be) better, or more attuned, than Luke was in the beginning? After all, Luke had to go through all that training, carrying Yoda around on his back on a swamp of a planet before he could even halfway stand up to Vader.

Then after I watched TFA a time or two on DVD, I realized that the fight with KR was never the moment the force awakened in her.  In fact, earlier in the film, KR and his master are having a discussion in which is stated, “I sense an awakening.” So the force had already awakened in Rey long before that final fight scene between her and Kylo.

What transpired between Rey and Kylo when they first met is what holds the real clue to Rey’s sudden abilities with the force at the end. Remember, she and Kylo could both easily get into one another’s heads through whatever connection the two shared pretty much from the start.  So when she bested him in the end, that moment that appears to be an awakening—she was actually taking all that knowledge from inside Kylo’s head. What he knew, she had access to through their mental rapport.

Which might raise another question: could Kylo have bested himself with his own knowledge?  Which is what Rey did.

I would take into consideration several things on that score.  KR is wounded (as Scifi stated above), Rey certainly has the element of surprise because Kylo never saw that one coming, and finally, give any two people the same basic skill-set and that doesn’t make them equal.  It would seem Rey, for my money, also was a bit better at thinking on her feet when it came to using Kylo’s own knowledge against him in that instance. While Kylo is a lot more temperamental and less mature overall.

And this is another aspect that was once considered obvious that is now, with the current canon, moot again.  The comics and books that have been released show Vader has gotten ALOT of use out of his lightsaber combat.  Training the Inquisitors, Hunting the Jedi who survived order 66 (he just killed Eath Koth), fending off Palpatines cyborg projects etc.  It really just has to be chalked up to real world constraints.  Personally, as much as I enjoy them, the lightsbaer duel in the films aren't near as exciting as the ones in the Old Republic cinematics.  Case in Point.  Malgus is a beast

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm4JEZudf0c#)

I never said I was going by Disney canon. While it's true that the original film established that Vader did hunt down and kill Jedi, a timeframe was never given. So, it's possible that he did use his saber a lot during the Dark Time. Then again, it's possible he didn't. That movie was the original and will always be the basis for canon for me, no matter what Disney says did and didn't happen.

I find the real world explanations to actually be more interesting anyway. At first, all sabers were supposed to be unstable and difficult to wield. That was why one had to be talented in the Force to use one. Obi-Wan and Vader were supposed to be going slow because of how difficult the sabers were to wield. As that notion was dropped, the fights got faster and more ferocious. Obviously, the notion they ended up using was that anyone can pick up a saber and do something with it, you just have to be trained in the Force to use it proficiently.

While I will not defend Lucasfilm under Disney...even a broken clock is right once a day.  The Vader comics and books are the rare bright spot in this new EU. 

I always thought of the scene where Rey flies the Millenium Falcon to escape pursuit on Jakku as the "awakening-moment". If I recall correctly, Snoke talks about the awakening right after that. Besides, it feels like the moment she flies through the imperial cruiser could've been the first moment in here life when she REALLY needed to become fully aware of her surroundings and see everything slightly ahead of it happening (kind of like Anakin in pod races).

I've heard nothing but good things about those Vader comics. I think I'm going to have to check them out. :)

So true and really good points.  Adding to Kylo's unstable lightsaber, if you look closely at his version of how his uncle tried to kill him, you will see his lightsaber before it became a crossguard.  The crystal was damaged but he wanted to keep it more than likely reminding him of how his uncle, who is a Grand Master of the Jedi, tried to kill him.  While keeping the unstable crystal, he had to add lateral vents to divert the extra heat produced by the crystal to both sides of the hilt.  

(http://fsmedia.imgix.net/7e/e1/09/51/1440/4b0d/8da2/032a82a8855f/seems-like-this-would-be-cooler-if-it-had-little-things-poking-out-of-the-sides.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&w=650)
(http://fsmedia.imgix.net/b4/ca/9e/3a/9b24/43c6/a7a9/11107575f11f/goth-saber.png?auto=format%2Ccompress&w=650)

I hadn't noticed that. Points for opening my eyes!

Through fandom wikis and years of reading SW comics and books. The Crossguard is an ancient weapon dated back to the Great Scourge of Malachor which was thousands of years before the Galactic Civil War

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Crossguard_lightsaber (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Crossguard_lightsaber)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Scourge_of_Malachor (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Scourge_of_Malachor)

Now, unlike the ancient Crossguards that were designed to emit the lateral blades, Kylo's crossguard was based on his original saber that had a damaged crytal.  Now, this is speculation only until it's proven but the two most popular theories of how the crystal was damaged is:

1. The crystal cracked during the bout with his uncle when he was awaken with his uncle looming over him with his lightsaber ignite and he force grabbed his to defend himself and brought the roof down to escape.

2. The crystal is cracked due to his conflict within himself between light and dark which caused the crystal to crack

Now, if you remembered, his original one was damaged in TFW and in TLJ, he has a new shinier one without all the component nor red wire sticking out.  This one was built as a Crossguard instead of his first that resembled one due to a cracked crystal.   See: https://screenrant.com/kylo-ren-lightsaber-trivia-facts-star-wars-crossguard/ (https://screenrant.com/kylo-ren-lightsaber-trivia-facts-star-wars-crossguard/)

Also:

https://screenrant.com/kylo-ren-lightsaber-trivia-facts-star-wars-crossguard/ (https://screenrant.com/kylo-ren-lightsaber-trivia-facts-star-wars-crossguard/)

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kylo_Ren%27s_lightsaber (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kylo_Ren%27s_lightsaber)

An interesting thing to note is how Red Crystals are made in the new Canon.  The Sith way was to take a Crystal from a Jedi and "bleed" it...force it to the Sith's whim.  This process made the crystal turn Red thus why it was called bleeding.  But, as far as we know, Kylo did not take a crystal from another Jedi...he bled his own.  Thus the cracking from his conflict holds in that regard.

I was curious when I first saw his saber in the flashback.  After owning the movie, I froze the frame and zoomed in, sure enough, it was his saber before he turned it to a CrossGuard. Have a point back.


Exactly

Are you sure his saber doesn't still have the red wire in TLJ? I remember it being there but I could be wrong. Also when would he have made a new one? There is literally like 5 minutes between TFA and TLJ.

I'll have to check on the red wire thing but got to remember, between the fight on Starkiller and the end of TFA was at least a few days, a week at most.  If he had the components at hand it wouldn't have taken long at all to make a new saber.

You're right, I might of looked at it from a weird view and didn't see it at first so it looks to be the same one just repaired and all black looking.

[img]http://media.comicbook.com/2017/10/star-wars-8-kylo-ren-new-lightsaber-1036557.jpg[img]



It's there, hard to tell with the red background but it's there so it's the same saber just repaired and looks all black other than the side vents.

I guess your right. I never really noticed any time passed at all between SKB and Ahch-To. 

It wasn't shown, but I doubt Rey left just a few hours after reaching the resistance base.  The time in between just wasn't shown.

I agree with sci-fi that lightsabers were not the most stable or easiest things to wield. That also seems to vary between the first and second trilogy in terms of the Jedi being in constant practice because some of the sabers just look like they’re put together better.  The artistry of those elegant weapons could easily have been lost to time since the Jedi are mostly gone by the time Luke hits the scene.

Obi Wan’s saber is looking a bit weathered.  Vader’s must have aged as well.  I do find Vader to be the hardest to swallow in terms of suspending my disbelief because he’s the one who is still using the force regularly. Has he used his saber less? Probably. It still doesn’t completely wash with me.  I accept it for what it is because the first trilogy was done during a different time and they were making so many things up and setting standards for things to come—and at that point, who knew if the movies would stand the test of time? So I give huge credit for the people who put work into a project like that.  Even though there are inconsistencies, I think it’s all makings for some interesting speculation.

I do have some questions for the saber experts here.

The Sith have primarily red blades, but the Jedi have several colors. I never quite came to terms as to whether this was supposed to be a type of ranking system, a Kyberlight crystal color, or something to do with the emotional connection with the force—like an aura color.

One thing that was cleared up for me after watching ROTJ last night was about Luke’s second lightsaber—the one that looks so much like Obi Wan’s from ANH.  I’ve read a lot about it being the same sabe, but couldn’t figure if there was any explanation how Luke would’ve gotten the saber since they left the ship right after Vader struck Obi Wan. But in ROTJ, Vader mentions Luke’s saber being his own construction, possible modeled after Obi Wan’s for various reasons

One of the books has a scene that takes place right after Luke built it and he’s at Obi Wan’s house, so possible built from spare parts Obi Wan had.  The scen also has Luke going outside when he first powers the saber up because he fear blowing up the house if he constructed it poorly. This brings us back full circle to the fact the sabers were a bit unwieldy, even dangerous if their construction was damaged.

This supports Kylo need to make vents so the excess energy has some place to go.  Because if it blows up, we have at least one reference stating the explosion could at the very least take out a small house.

I think this is the first still I've seen from this scene, but the first thing I noticed here was not the saber (I saw that in the movie), but rather the fact that Luke's compass thing is sitting on Ben's desk. This makes me think that it did not actually contain the map to Ahch-To, but is something else. If it was the map, then Kylo wouldn't have needed to find the piece that Lor San-Tekka had. Either that, or Ben hadn't figured out how to unlock it yet.

Good catch Taegin!

Good eye, Teagin  :)

Good eye Taegin, point