Saber Forum

Just have come across this video, hard to argue the points unfortunately...
(On the throne room-scene analysis I was laughing here as hard as I did in the cinema room back in the day.)

Sorry... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c85KaDSMIRM#)

Funny, I watched this yesterday. I completely agree. Point incoming

I saw this video a while ago, had a few issues with it.  Now the whole thing seemed to just be a build up for tearing down the Throne Room scene.  Which I have no issue with.  There was not one reason for Rey to have been able to defeat the Praetorians so easily, narratively speaking.  But they seemed to have just glossed over (or were unaware) of the many examples of Non-Force users using Lightsabers in combat both in the Old EU and Current Canon.  Boba Fett, General Grevious, Pre Visla, Cad,  bane to name a few.  The thing these characters had in common was they were all trained in combat.  Much like If your trained in one type of swordsmanship you can pick up another type of sword and use it...BUT you wont be able to use it to its fullest extent. Contrary to common belief, lightsabers do have weight so swinging them and not hitting themselves isn't even a thing.  But you'll notice none of them do the fancy flourishes Jedi/Sith are so fond of other than grevious.   The fights these characters were in showed they could hold their own against Force users..for a bit.  But ultimately couldn't win.
          In terms of Rey, she was a scrapper.  Had to learn to defend herself on Jakku so could "hold her own" so to speak.  Her fight with Kylo showed her constantly making heavy swipes....much like she would do with her staff.  Each blow though was easily parried by kylo in which she would then retreat.  As well at this point, which has been stated before, Kylo was not in the best shape..physically or mentally.  His connection to the Dark Side was flickering because of what he had just done.  So his Pain was a hindrance instead of a boon.  But he still got the upper hand.  UNTIL Rey allowed to Force to flow.  Not for her to control though...the Force was controlling her.  In that moment she was angry, scared, hurt and mourning both Han and Finn.....She used the Dark Side.  This was where I thought they were going to go (and for all we know its what JJ intended).  Rey had shown her capability to mimic what she felt.  Kylo pushed into her mind so she copied the feeling and pushed back.  Everything about how she used the Force was what she saw from Kylo...Dark Side.  But of course any interting thing that was started in TFA was abandoned in TLJ.

I agree with you that Rey clearly had training fighting with a staff, so I could see some of the skill translating, particularly parrying. I thought it was a bit of a stretch for an ex-Stormtrooper to also know how to fight with a saber, just because I don't understand why fighting with that type of weapon (or similar) would be part of their training when they primarily wielded blasters.

I looked at Rey like a skilled fighter, with some natural force ability helping her. As you said, able to hold her own, but not forever. I do personally think she should have gotten her ass kicked a bit more in the initial fights, or maybe Kylo Ren is just weak? LOL.

But I don't see why other people can't pick up lightsabers and fight with them, it's not like they're all Thor's Hammers. I just think they need to do a little more work on the backstory of training when people end up naturally good with them, and definitely show a difference between a trained Jedi/Sith vs someone who knows swordplay.

On the flipside, if they start having Jawas and Ewoks involved in lightsaber battles then they've lost me.

In terms of Finn, you see he fought a Trooper that used a "Tonfa"  so it isn't a stretch to think they all learned some-type of melee fighting, which was confirmed in one of the short books released after the film.  Turns out that trooper was in Finn's Unit, so it was actually kind of a personal battle.

I like the points you guys are making, brings a lot of good perspective and takes things deeper than what the narrator of the clip was willing to go.

A point that he brought up and that I agree with is that so many blows that those lightsabers landed should've been leathal and final. No scratching or flesh wounds. All other examples of lightsaber combat had this effect until the Disney era. I'd like to see that changed back with films going forward.

In the instance of Finn's back and Kylo's face...both were grazes and not full cuts.  From what I could tell both wounds were supposed to be much more severe later on ... but RJ seemed to decide to gloss over them...even lessening and moving Kylo's scar.

Remember what Luke did with Vader on Bespin - that hit on his shoulder. No dismembering although a lightsaber can cut through that armor with ease. When you want it to - Ep VI, Death Star. And that was pre-Disney ;)

Anyway, any skilled user (and I count Rey as a skilled user due to her staff training) can control his strikes and turn them into lethal blows or just cuts and thrusts that defeat the opponent without killing him. See Dooku on Geonosis or Grievous' ship - pre-Disney ;) Or Anakin in Ep III with that scar across his eye - pre-Disney ;)

So, I don't really think it's an issue or logical error when lightsabers produce non-lethal wounds...although I agree that the ways Kylo defeated Finn and Rey defeated Kylo in TFA would normally have killed them. There was too much strength and too less precision involved. However, I wouldn't blame Disney for that, really...they haven't done everything right, yes, but I still think they make a good job with the new movies, series etc. :)

What I really have found questionable the most is the execution of these fighting scenes with regards to the characters and their (supposed) (and often post-explained and justified) skills with a lightsaber.
That choreography in the throne room was disastrous. I remember seeing it in the cinema and couldn't save facepalming all over the place. Mostly for the reasons this guy points out.

Kylo's uncontrolled style can somewhat be explained by this "lore" but what I saw in both movies so far was a non-polished, mostly plainly uncoordinated whacking in every direction where the wind blows. Those floor hits, those fight scenes altogether didn't show anything of the character's skills whatever they tried to build up. The actor was just not the best choice for that maybe.
I can't just buy a lore if it shows otherwise on the screen, especially if they try to sell it with that vague way a 6 year old tries to convince his parents it wasn't him breaking that vase an hour before with the broomstick.

All the logical flaws on top of this doesn't help either - if they expect me, the fan to create sweating explanations to save their lazy work, I'm afraid that's not very professional of them.
I have never felt any issues before, even with the prequels which had some flaws in play but those flaws were rather dramaturgical and actors' defects while the lore was convincingly being built with every step backing up the previous one and drawing it further. Lucas appears to be way more intelligent to build and extend any lore, Disney has quite a week spot there.
Not sure I'll be there watching Ep9, maybe on DVD when it's on sale.

Well, if you've ever just grazed yourself with a soldering iron tip it still burns like hell for a long time hahaha. A lightsaber graze would be the Star Wars version of a paper cut.


That's true, okay I'll give it to him that he wouldn't have been worthless with it.

What I meant is that neither, being grazes, would have been deadly.  But both, even with bacta, should have had worse lasting effects.  The way I thought it was going to go was either Finn would be relegated to a chair of some kind or had a mechanical spine.  With Kylo I figured he was going to be really messed up again in EP 8 and be forced to wear a mask now instead just wanting to.  Suffer his grandfathers pain so to speak.




I had those explanations for Ep.7 when I left the theater...for me...all the evidence was there to extrapolate it.  Ep. 8 is inexcusable though.  Some of Kylo's moves in Ep. 7 had hints of Longsword in them with of course his erratic behavior thrown in.  I didn't mind..it fit the character and weapon.  But TLJ....I don't know what they wanted there....but it was bad.  They even had to digitally remove a blade because they realized the guard could have stabbed Rey in the back.

LOVE this, perfectly sums up the majority of my feelings towards a lot of the decisions and plot points made in the new trilogy.

Finn's injuries suffered in TFA really bugged me when they carried over to TLJ. I think they clearly explained Finn's injuries away that it was just a grazing blow, but if you watch the fight between Kylo and Finn again, there is simply no way that Kylo didn't turn his entire spinal cord into a charred mess. Finn turns away and Kylo just nonchalantly runs the saber up his back. Unless Kylo deliberately held back from killing him, which doesn't make any sense, then he's a total noob at saber combat (which sadly seems to make more sense overall.)

Spines are overrated.

Like I said, It seemed his injury was supposed be much more serious...but it was one of the many things RJ just decided to gloss over

I do have to agree that the choreography in the throne room was horrible, but what bugged me most was that it looked like they plunked the chair down by the blue screen(or whatever colour they were using) and forgot to put in the digital walls. The whole thing was just annoying to look at and I would say it took me out of the moment but I found it hard to get into the moment with either of the new movies.

I like how you started this....until you stated that a lightsaber has weight. How does a blade of pure energy have weight?

But I do agree with the analysis. Of the characters that you listed that were shown in media using sabers, other than Grievous, their technique was rudimentary and sluggish; easily beaten by a Jedi.

Not entirely. I submit ESB: Battle of Bespin. Luke hit Vader in the shoulder with a glancing blow. Vader vocally cries out from the hit, and then proceeds to fight. Although he was wearing armor (whose specs evade my knowledge base). However in ATC, Obi Wan was put out of commission by small wounds on the leg and arm.

Also noteworthy: The battle of Mustafar circa LEGO Star Wars, Obi Wan singes Vader's behind, and the fight continued. ;D

This will probably make your head hurt since I'm sure the science is off...but remember..Uncle George just wanted a Space Sword and others tried to retrofit a scientific explanation.

The hilt, of course, has weight.  And the emitter is usually going to have a bit more mass than the rest of the innards, this would help orient the position of the blade.  The blade itself has magnetic properties as well as being in the "plasma loop".  This energy would create a "weight" to the blade...infinitesimal  but still noticeable to someone combat trained.  Much how someone with extensive training in firearms can tell if a gun is loaded or unloaded by its weight.  This goes into explain why Non-Force users can't do the Flourishes that Force Users can.  Not counting Cyborgs like Grevious.  Lightsabers not have true edges like real swords also helps since no matter how you hold it its going to cut.  That's why I have always wanted to use Escrima techniques with lightsabers

Indeed, the best proof out there that lightsabers aren't as dangerous as they are made out to be in some movies. ;D ;)

I feel like there's a Canon instance of the saber having weight but I can't pinpoint where I saw it. For those of you who are more versed in the Rebels show, wasn't it when Kanan was introducing Sabine to the Darksaber? Could have sworn she mentioned it was "heavier than she thought" or something like that.

I'll break the ice and be the first to bring up Inquisitor saber-copters as an example of Disney not knowing sabers too much.  ;D I actually hated something like that was Canon until I researched it a bit more. It isn't the spinning motion of the plasma blades that provides the lift but a built in repulsorlift and the spin is just a byproduct.

So when you say "weight" you are referring to the volume of plasma of the blade that is so minuscule, it makes a gram seem like a ton by comparison? If so, then yes, I will acquiesce that a saber blade does in fact have mass, though it may as well be weightless for all it is perceived by the uninitiated.

The line starts with me and continues back. The Inq sabers was pure, unadulterated kids' show gimmick bullshell. I have the same problems with them as I do lightwhips. That's not how light works. Also, even if they had repulsors built in, how would they be able to hold on while the sabers pushed against everything below them? But there is much that proves the idiots in charge have no desire to deliver a quality product to the real fans.

You are correct. But I believe it was because she had not "bonded" (for lack of a better term) with the saber yet. I believe after she started using it a bit, she also said she felt like it was getting lighter.

IT'S A ROCK

GET OVER IT!!! >:( >:(

Its a Force Connected Rock

Never.

It is a lifeless aggregate of minerals subjected to specific conditions. Nothing more.

"The Force is an energy field created by all living things." - Obi Wan Kenobi
"Life creates it. Makes it grow." - Yoda

...and Kyber's were called LIVING Crystals.  There were unique and even the Jedi did not 100% know about them.... why is this such a sore point for you.  You can accept a Mystical Force giving people powers but not that it can create a semi sentient Crystal?

Pretty much. The Force I've always had an issue with living rock. There are criteria that must be met for something to be considered as a life form. Rocks/crystals do not meet any of these criteria.

The seven characteristics of life include:
- responsiveness to the environment
- growth and change
- ability to reproduce
- have a metabolism and breathe
- maintain homeostasis
- being made of cells
- passing traits onto offspring

Now if you want to venture into the realm of fantasy, go nuts. Rock Biters, Giants of Middle Earth, even Korg.

Well there is the thing, Star Wars is that nice mix of Fantasy and Sci-fi.  I am not a Sci-Fi fan...Star Trek is about as far as I go and even then I'm not to versed in it. If it was not for the Force/Jedi/Sith aspect...Star Wars would hold little to no interest for me.  So Fantasy Rules do Apply to Star Wars.   Even so, I think your taking the word "Living" too literally.  The Crystals are Nexus' or conduits for The Force.  Maybe a better comparison objects used in Magical items.  The Crystals don't use the Force..The Force uses the Crystal.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

So then why didn't Luke use the Sorting Hat to find out the Solo brat was a bad egg and immediately exile him to Mordor?

(http://i.imgur.com/yUj9axo.jpg) (https://imgur.com/yUj9axo)

Not you, just the so-called writers.

While I don't mind the Crystals being more force oriented...I can agree the Story Group seems to have no clue what they're doing.  Dangling plot lines, unnecessary  characters and events, outright contradictions to film lore.   

Yeah. For me details are what sell a story. If their "new" ideas were consistent with all facets, I may not mind as much.

Case in point: kyber crystals are supposed to be Force sensitive and can choose who uses a saber, and dark siders have to "bleed" the crystal to break its will, resulting in a red blade.................why does the Deathstar fire in green if the crystals haven't been bled in order to be used for evil?

Canon wise...they haven't answered that as far as I know...only saying "even the Jedi didn't know everything about them".   Which does Irk me.  Like I said...I like the idea but do wish they would flesh it out more.  I would rather the Death Star NOT have used Kyber Crystals.   

I would have preferred Kyber crystals to have been a specific type of crystal, capable of being used in a saber, that was Force sensative. Not the ONLY saber crystal.

exactly, In the old canon there were dozens of different kinds of crystals (Adegan, Hurricane, and the Shards) and there was one Kyber crystal and it was basically a legend

Which I personally didn't like.  It was one of the main issues with the EU....it became bloated.  Its why I was fine with a restart to trim it down a bit...but not the way they did it

You also had Jedi standard Illum crystals. Ancient Sith mined Lignan crystals (red) and then learned to produce synth crystals. No hocus pocus bullshell about breaking its will.

Force forbid "Space Wizards" Preform any Hocus Pocus.... ::)

Sith rituals I'll buy. Imbuing an object WITH the Force, I'll buy. Those have to do with an acts will. But I refuse to get into an argument with a rock.

Why not, I do every time we converse...:P

And another perfect segway into a shameless plug for the ForumVerse. Karmack has gone extensively into this very topic in his stories, and it works beautifully. Check it out.

But outside of that, why would it matter? The crystals are already naturally Force sensitive, all that is needed is for someone to have one. The deathstar (like any other weapon) is not evil, the person who wields the weapon decides whether or not the acts committed with it are evil or righteous.
The saber doesn't need a red blade to be used for evil (as evidenced by Anakin murdering the younglings, etc.), the red blade is more of a symbol of their path to the Dark Side (yes, I know, that is not exactly accurate, but for the point I'm trying to make, it is what is needed). Look at General Grievous. He uses sabers for evil, yet they aren't red. If a saber needs to be red in order to be used for evil, than Dooku would have bled Grievous' sabers any time he got one.


As far as we know, that is all it is. There is nothing in Canon that says there cannot be other types of crystals used. Just that Kyber is the most common. I fully believe that there could easily be one or two (at most) other types of crystals that could power a lightsaber.


And bleeding a crystal doesn't involve will? Have you even read what you are saying? Or better yet, have you even read into the lore that goes along with bleeding? Maybe you should, Wookieepedia is not that hard to get to, and it will tell you everything you need to know about any SW topic you want to know about.


And what is this even supposed to mean? What you said makes absolutely no sense. I won't say that Rian made the best decisions he possibly could have with Luke's character arc, but at the same time, they have yet to explain what happened to Luke to get him to the place he was at when he tried to kill Ben and thought better of it (that being the important part). Wait until they explain it, we have one more movie left in the trilogy, so we will see which of the stories Abrams ties up and brings to a close. I'm pretty sure we will get the majority of the answers we are looking for.

Did some thinking over the weekend about this. I would concede a Force connection with a crystal that was infused with the Force. Whether by Jedi meditation or Sith ritual, in order to disallow any unauthorized use of the saber.


Also.....shut up.


- Then why is it bullshell canon that dark-siders can't have a saber unless they bleed the crystal? And again, If I can turn it on and kill someone with it, I wouldn't care if the blade was carnation pink, I'll use it. And I highly doubt that an organization bent on galactic domination is concerned about symbology. I'm just sickened by the notion that the Force would actively oppose itself with rules like only the goody-two-shoes get to find crystals and make sabers. Ever notice that the "Dark Side" is never classified as an opposing the Force? It is the Force. The opposition of light and dark is balance, so if the good guys get awesome glow sticks of death then so do the bad guys, and for no more effort.

- If there are other ways, then why push that Sith/dark-siders have to steal Jedi crystals?

- I always try to proofread my posts. But more so, I'm referencing what others have told me about the would-be canon. I trust Tepes when he tells me something about the "new direction" no matter how much I may hate it. And considering that he hasn't yet told me that my information is incorrect, I will continue railing against it.

Perhaps you should read the article on Wookieepedia http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kyber_crystal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kyber_crystal) (which sucks btw)

- I'll explain it to you when you're older and capable of understanding sarcasm.

I will also concede, while I like the idea of "Bleeding" the Crystal, I do wish the Sith had their own ritual for obtaining crystals other than killing a Jedi and taking theirs. 


Also...Make Me

I will add to my concession. I don't think that I would mind as much if bleeding a Jedi's crystal was a thing, not the only thing.

I can agree on that.  Though the Bleeding Ceremony was interesting to see in the Vader comic.   The Force pushed back and showed Vader a possible path of Redemption.  But he refused.

Okay, so how did the Eternal Empire even GET lightsabers. Much less yellow and blue ones...

Because SWTOR is still operating on the old EU Rules.

Blah blah blah. Light and Dark are two sides to the same coin. There is no right or wrong.

Sorry to say, I hated that scene where the boys are making a saber. "Let's just drop the crystal in and it'll work." :-\ Uh, no. Unless the crystal is properly aligned it will cause the saber to explode.

I see.


You sure are reading a lot into a video game trailer...

So, killing millions for no other reasons than to assert power is right? 

Because I know how people work. They see it once and think it's a universal constant. Like TCW screwed up by making all crystals initially clear versus colored, so they could run with the dumbass mistaking an ice shard for a crystal. Now everyone follows that idea since undoubtedly more saw TCW instead of the Micro-series.

Life and death happens.

That's also LITERALLY how it works according to cannon.... of course they're going to follow established cannon. You're being silly now.

Impressive. Every single word in this sentence is wrong.

The only reason it's "canon" is because it was used in TCW. Otherwise they'd have come up with something beyond ridiculous. ::)

<cringe> Quoting TLJ? How desperate are you?

Cleaning a Crystal of the Dark Side did exist in the EU... From Wookipedia

"The Jedi Order had an advanced technique that allowed, in case of need, the cleaning of synthetic crystals made by dark-side users from the hate of their former owners. In 41 ABY, Jaden Korr, who had lost his lightsaber, used the Force to banish the dark side from the red crystal of a Dark Jedi he had killed. Through meditation, he was able to remove all traces of the dark side and imbue the crystal with the light side, turning the Dark Jedi's lightsaber into a yellow-bladed Jedi weapon. "

Now I have a backstory in my head where I cleansed my Dark Sentinel to have it's amber blade instead of red. :D

Maybe this applies to this thread, maybe it doesn't. I feel like Disney doesn't understand anything to do with the Force. Jedi, Sith, Lightsabers, all of it.

Here's the thing.  We all like to throw Disney's name around but in the end...they just write the checks.  True enough they could step in at any time and change the direction so at most they are guilty of indifference.  It is Kathleen Kennedy (who was hand picked by Lucas) and Lucasfilm that are making these decisions.  The Story Group, the people in charge of canon, as well is made up of people who have worked at Lucasfilm since before the Prequels began.  What we are really seeing is a group of people who had their own Ideas how Star Wars should be and without George there have the free reign to enact it.  The Inmates have the keys so to speak.  Now of course this doesn't mean Lucas was without his faults.  There are quite a few decisions he made that were pretty bad.  The Mando's being pacifists was his idea for example. 

Ok, now this would make sense since a synth crystal of a DS adept would have been forged by a malicious will. But simultaneously Luke's green crystal was synth as well, and then later in the comics he had a shoto with a red crystal.

You can sit with me.

I think the biggest reason why Disney gets thrown under the bus is because the timing of their acquisition of Lucasfilm coincides with the Star Wars purge and the subsequent age of suck. NTM, Disney has a long tenure of being associated with magic, and that is exactly the way the new canon is being sold: "We can't come up with a good plot or explanation of a plot device, so we're just going to label it as space magic."

For me, the more Mysticism the better, but I can see why their "Its magic" explanation would be irksome.  Indeed it does mesh with the mess of the lore they have made.  But, like I said, the Lore Decisions are being made by people that were making them 20 years ago.  They just can do what they want now.

Fortunately my Sith Lord is +20 doesn't-give-a-#@%& and casts middle finger of disapproval.

/snort

Desperate? No. It just so happened that there was a quote from a SW movie that fit exactly what needed to be said, so I used it. I could've just as easily said "That is the most inaccurate statement I have ever read".

I wouldn't mind the "SPACE MAGIC!!!!" thing if it was used OCCASIONALLY, but they're playing that card a bit too often, IMO.

It also so happens to be from the worst and most pretentious SW movie to have ever been released. Why else do you think they had to use that awful line twice? But then I wouldn't expect you to understand why there is no right or wrong.

Its amazing how in three sentences I can both agree and disagree with you.

I'm good like that. 8) ;D

I may be mistaken, but I think i saw some behind the scenes footage that showed that being a practical set with no green/blue screen. I agree that whatever they did still looked super fake and dumb.

It was using that solid red background...it really made the scene look fake

I thought the red were giant curtains, because after the fight there were huge windows. Only saw twice and really wasn't paying any attention.

They were... Rey burned them when she threw one of the Guards burning weapons into them.  Should have not been a solid color though.  Some black or gold or purple would have fit and broken up the blandness

Ladies and gentlemen, the future of Star Wars.

(https://i.gifer.com/6IRA.gif)