Saber Forum

Now I know that some people love Rey, and if you're one of them then good for you. But I have a different opinion on her, and this is me just laying down some Star Wars facts.

With that out of the way, every Star Wars fan knows The Empire Strikes Back, and there are probably zero fans who hate it. The movie pushed the bounds, it built upon A New Hope, it showed us amazing cinematography that had aged beautifully throughout the years, it showed us Luke Skywalker officially training and honing his skills with the teachings of a tiny, but powerful Jedi Master. It showed us one of the most iconic love stories ever told, it made Vader even more scary than he already was. Boba Fett was a badarse. It also went way dark with literally everything that happens in the third act. We hate Lando only to love him when he makes the right decision to help Leia and Chewie. We are heartbroken when Han is taken away, and then I'm sure everyone is left in a state of shock when Vader lays down the cold hard truth after chopping Luke's hand off. It is arguably, the best Star Wars film when it comes to being a fan favorite. (I personally think Return Of The Jedi was the best).
But let's get to my point. During TESB Luke is doing some physical training with Yoda on his back. Yoda tells Luke to run, to use the Force. But then he tells Luke to be wary of something else. Of anger, fear, aggression. They are the Dark Side. Luke asks if the Dark Side is stronger and Yoda quickly tells him it is not, just easier and more seductive.

Guess who's had the quick and easy path throughout her two movies and collection of comics. Let me spoil it for you. Rey.

She beat Kylo Ren when he tried to find the map in her head. She beat him again when they fought. She taught herself to wield a lightsaber, when her skills in fighting should be limited to fighting talentless thugs. She is drawn to the Dark Side within the island yet is never tempted by the Dark Side itself the way Luke was tested when he went into the cave on Dagobah. Luke drew his weapon first, killed Vader, and saw himself as Vader, saw what was a possible future where he becomes what Vader is if he stays on a path of anger towards Vader for killing his father and Obi-Wan, though Luke would not realize this until ROTJ, and later draw a comparison between the vision and the time when he fought C'baoth's Luuke clone.

Rey is red hot angry at Kylo Ren for killing Han, yet that anger was never played on and instead simmered down within a week while they Force Skyped each other. Rey while in that weird cave, sees nothing but herself. She doesn't learn anything besides the fact that she is alone and has no parents. "She is her own baby mama." in the words of parody Picard.
She goes back for Ben, thinking there is good in him, when it took a good year for Luke to realize there was good in his father still and made the decision to try to save Anakin. Yet after a week at best, Rey is ready to forgive Kylo for kidnapping and torturing her, killing Han (who by the way is Kylo's father who just wanted Ben to come home) and almost killing her first ever best friend Finn.

She fought off Jedi killing guards when Jake Skywalker never even trained her in the Jedi art of saber combat, she was even able to defeat her opponents while Kylo Ren clumsily struggled through the ending and was almost killed. And then of course, the Force tug of war. And after all that crazy, Rey is fine. She's in the Millennium Falcon's gunner position whooping and grinning while shooting down TIE fighters as if the experience with Kylo Ren and Snoke never happened. As if she hadn't just accepted the fact that her parents never loved her and that, according to the guy she just decided to save called her 'nothing' and 'no one'. That should've been crazy traumatic.

After Luke's traumatic experience he's broken down, feverish and emotionally numb. Even in the book he gives up hope when the Falcon's hyperdrive doesn't work. He's not helping at all with the escape. He's far too busy being a human being with actual emotional depth.

Rey, goes on to help the dozen or so Resistance fighters and uses the Force to lift a hundred boulders out of their path. All the while a confused expression morphing into a smile on her face when Finn appears.
Anakin did not grin and easily tame The Children on Mortis.
Yoda struggled to lift a big cylinder that was going to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Galen Marek struggled greatly to get that Star Destroyer's engines killed just so gravity could take the destroyer down.
And let's not forget that in the novels for the Sequels Rey literally downloaded Kylo Ren's training when she pushed him out of her head, and later again downloaded his training when they touched hands during a Force Skype call.

Rey is going down a very quick and easy path to power, yet hasn't been truly tempted to become evil. Even when Kylo Ren offers his hand, Rey doesn't even hesitate to start begging for him to turn away from all that and come with her. And when he refuses, she takes a breath and abruptly goes for the lightsaber.

Maybe The Rise Of Skywalker can fix this problem, but we were already teased with Dark Rey in the TLJ trailer and that was total trickery. So for now and probably forever, Rey does not belong in the Star Wars universe as an accurate character and Force User. She's Kathleen Kennedy's fanfiction character and Mary Sue at best.

May the Force be with you.

<golf clap>

Ok, I'm pretty much obligated to take up a contrary position, based on our past discussions. First off, I don't "love" Rey, although apparently I have different issues with her than most other people.


I think Yoda may have a bit of a biased opinion here. And I'm going to say that the Dark side is only easier and more seductive if you've already been trained in the force (Dooku and Anakin come to mind). But I'm going to say that pretty much no Sith from Darth Bane on through Darth Maul would say that their training was "easy" by any stretch of the imagination. Or if it is "easier," it's because the Sith want power more, and so they work harder to get it.

Also, as far as training time goes, the best estimates I found for how long Luke's training with Yoda lasted is somewhere between 1-3 weeks. The longest estimate I found was 3 months, and that was really pushing it. In any event, still a much shorter amount of training than the lifetime of training, starting at a VERY young age, that most jedi in the Republic era had. (Here's a link to the best answers I found on the Luke/Yoda training question. https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/13776/how-long-was-luke-skywalkers-training-with-yoda )

Her lightsaber skills are abysmal. I'm not sure why anyone is really surprised that she could beat Kylo in combat though, since his skills aren't much better. For that matter, Luke was never really formally trained in lightsaber combat, he merely mirrored his father in combat by instinct. Rey at least has some martial weapons experience beating up talentless thugs.


Good explanation of the scene in the tree, but really Lucas just wanted to foreshadow the relationship between Vader and Luke. That aside, why would she be tempted to the Dark side on the island? The tree was meant to test Luke. If I recall correctly, the traditional Jedi test that it is most similar to is to "Face the Mirror." To confront your own darkness and overcome it. The island just had a hole in it. There's nothing for the Dark side to tempt her with or to.

There's a theory on this that she sees only herself because she's a clone. She literally has no parents.


Trying to redeem someone, to save them, to prevent them from killing anyone else that you happen to be friends with, does not require you to forgive them for things they've already done. To stay in universe for a moment, I'm pretty sure Revan was not forgiven for the things he did as a Sith, but he was brought back to the light none the less. The jedi wanted him to come back to the light. Leah never forgave Vader for blowing up Aalderan (among other things), but I'm pretty sure she was still happy that Luke managed to bring him back to the light. Saving and forgiving do not necessarily relate.


Like I already said, both her and Kylo's lightsaber skills are poor at best. She at least has what I guess are the equivalent of street fighting skills. And she improvises well, probably partially due to not being locked in any type of formal training.


Ok, here I have to take serious exception at your definition of "traumatic." I doubt Kylo has any idea what her parents (if she had any) thought of her, and is merely trying to get her to join him. She refers to herself as "no one" I don't know how many times over the course of the two movies, so telling her that other people see her as she sees herself isn't all that "traumatic." Like she said, she's trying to find her place in everything.


Yes, having your hand cut off, finding out your father is possibly the greatest monster in the galaxy, and that your mentor lied to you about your father being "dead" might make you broken down, feverish, and emotionally numb. Oh yeah, and hanging upside down with the very real possibility of falling into a gas giant planet that has some really wacked out things living in it's atmosphere might have an effect on your physical and mental wellbeing. Somehow, I think that anyone would be in worse shape after that than just having someone tell you "hey, you're a nobody" and not causing a bit of bodily harm to you. I'm willing to bet Luke would have been pretty much fine if Vader had just pushed him down and called him names too.


Rey, goes on to help the dozen or so Resistance fighters and uses the Force to lift a hundred boulders out of their path. All the while a confused expression morphing into a smile on her face when Finn appears. - Well, she just proved Luke wrong about the Force being used to lift rocks (I don't think there were hundreds of them by any stretch). And her best-est new friend is still alive and she last time she saw him he was in a medical capsule, so yes, she might be a bit happy.

Anakin did not grin and easily tame The Children on Mortis. - How the F can you compare moving rocks to subjugating the living embodiment of the light and Dark sides of the Force? No S he wasn't grinning. That actually took some effort. Like, a lot of effort, especially since the life of your Padawan and best~ish friend hang in the balance.

Yoda struggled to lift a big cylinder that was going to crush Anakin and Obi-Wan. - Again, life or death situation after a fairly rough duel with your former apprentice who you're unhappy about losing to the Dark side. But again, solid stone pillar probably a lot more difficult than some rocks. Although I would like to point out that if he had swung the cylinder the other way, he would have hit Dooku's ship and prevented him from escaping.

Galen Marek struggled greatly to get that Star Destroyer's engines killed just so gravity could take the destroyer down. - Don't get me started on the abomination that this is. If I had a time machine, preventing the existence of those games would be on the list of things I'd do.

And let's not forget that in the novels for the Sequels Rey literally downloaded Kylo Ren's training when she pushed him out of her head, and later again downloaded his training when they touched hands during a Force Skype call. - Great. Now she knows... um, … probably not much more than she did before that. Maybe how to Force grab a lightsaber better, and if she had the opportunity, possibly stop a blaster bolt. Not really sure what else Kylo can do... except now she probably is capable of whining more...

This isn't a temptation. If Kylo had said, "Join me and I'll spare your friends" that might have worked. But he was going to kill them regardless, and she knew it, so there was really no decision there.


Actually, as I thought about my response to this post, it occurred to me that Rey fits perfectly in the Star Wars universe as an accurate character. She's the embodiment of exactly what a jedi is supposed to be and supposed to do. She's let go of her anger, let go of her hate, freed herself from attachment, resisted all attempts to have her join the Dark side, and just generally been a good person. Reading back through the Republic and Old Republic stories you can see it. She's the almost perfect embodiment of what the jedi strove to be. You may not recognize it now, and think she's "too perfect," because we've never really seen the jedi at their best. Only glimpses here and there, mostly though Obi Wan and a few others. But she is exactly the kind of person the jedi meant to be.

The issue with her not being tempted is interesting. It's not that she wasn't tempted, it's that Kylo tried to tempt her with the wrong things. He (as a stereotypical idiot) tried to tempt her with only things that related to her. "I can teach you." "I can help you learn about the Force." "I can help YOU." Palpatine knew how to pull people to the Dark side. "Join me, and I can help you save your wife." "What you did when your mother died was ok." He always related to what the person held as important, namely friends and family, rather than just themselves. Except he failed with Luke, probably because he tempted him with personal power and taunted him with the death of his friends. "Your friends on the forest moon are doomed." "Your fleet is doomed." "Take your father's place at my side and we will rule the galaxy." He strayed from the "let me help you help the ones you care about" message to "hey kid, want some power?" And he failed to turn Luke, just as Kylo has failed with Rey.

Yay! Debate.

I think the point being made is that the Dark Side is a means to easy power. Sith training is no easy feat, but the lure to power is. And as depicted in lightly in the prequels, Anakin has always had a draw to power and control.

Luke still had more training. Plus he actually did make his own saber.

"Understatement of the millennium." But despite Kyle's shellty fight choreography, he still has more combat experience. And even if Luke wasn't that great of a combat instructor, we don't know what further combat training Emo got from Snoke. I'm fairly certain that swinging a staff around in a feral manner doesn't count as "martial weapons experience".

Correct. When Revan came back "to the light" there were many in the Republic that still feared him. The Jedi Council also highly disapproved of his marriage to Bastilla, but no one had the stones to confront him.

Or because Girl Power.

A "nobody" accepts that they have no place. With this contradiction, she denies that she truly believes she is nobody. So being told even further that she is nothing in universe and unwanted should have an emotional impact. NTM having assholes talk trash about your parents always cuts a little.

Luke struggled to lift a droid, a crate, and balance a stone after weeks of training. But then li'l Rey Rey lift (literally) TONS of boulders like it's nothing with her Girl Power.

The pillar thing wasn't solid or stone, but was already falling. This meant that he wasn't just picking it up, he also had to arrest its falling momentum. An object of that size isn't going to stop on a dime. But even referring to plucking the X-wing out of the muck, Yoda had centuries of training and mastery of his abilities, and it took focus for him to make lifting a ship look easy. Rey is easily moving far more weight than an X-wing, and doing it with ease AND control. It would have been far more believable had she flung them recklessly aside in order to clear the cave entrance. But no. We have to see how much more awesomely powerful she is than all the boys are.

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/l4pLY0zySvluEvr0c/giphy.gif)

You're mistaken on this point. If she were truly separated from attachment, she wouldn't have any friends. But worse yet, she does all this with no training. She just does it like it's something to do. One doesn't grow up in the environment she did and turn out on upstanding person that just wants to help people and make friends and do the right thing. Her caretaker was a POS, her family abandon her, and life was dog-eat-dog. Even the great Anakin had a sore spot when it came to dealing with slavers, due to his past; and he was fully trained. Rey should be preoccupied with what is best for her and her own interests. The First Order isn't her fight, the bowling ball would have fed her well for at least a month....in fact screw that mess. "I have a messed up past and badass Force powers. Guess who's in charge NOW, Unkar Plutt."

Actually, the undertones of the Emperor's methods (at least with Luke) was "You are about to completely alone. I can teach how to channel that rage into an unstoppable weapon and give you purpose." Vader's tried to persuade him through "Join me. It is the ONLY way you can save your friends."

This is a fantastic debate that I--at least at the moment--don't have to time to properly respond to  :)

I have to say: ES, Sakura, Logos have ALL given some great critiques and opinions!

Points!

For me, Rey is an "attempt" at a Star Wars character.  She hits most if not all the same marks of Luke and Anakin...but it feels rushed and hollow.   As to Kylo's Swordsmanship..... in real world terms he's actually the best of all the films.  Crazy huh.   How you ask?  Simple.  From the OT to the Prequels the Choreography has been based around "Sport" combat.  Olympic Fencing, Kendo and Wushu.  These are sports derived from Combat and in some cases utilize the flashiest of moves.  Kylo saber resembles a Longsword and whoever was the choreographer took that into consideration.  Many of Kylo's guards, stances and strikes are from Longsword combat...with flash mixed in of course.  You can easily go look up HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts) instructors and almost all are in agreement that his moves looked much more like an actual fight.  This was thrown out for TLJ though.  We've become so used to the over Choreographed fights of the prequels when a bit of realisms is interjected it looks off to some.   

     

I have the same issue with this as always. It's a weapon from another galaxy. I don't want to see "real world" fighting, I want want something made up.

Good discussion so far. The only thing I'm going to comment on at the moment is this. I would like to point out something that I have honestly never seen anyone talk about. When Yoda lifted the pillar or the X-Wing, they stayed steady until he let go of them. When Luke was training with Yoda and lifting rocks, they stayed mostly steady until he lost focus and dropped them. When Rey lifts the mountainside (and even before that when she is lifting all the little pebbles), they are rotating and spinning around. Yes, they themselves are not moving location wise, but they are not what I would consider controlled. They are acting as if they are still under the effect of Gravity, even though they are being suspended by the Force. It is just like a swing. While it hangs there, it is not going anywhere, but with the slightest nudge, it can be made to move. That doesn't seem like control. More like brute strength to me, which is something we have seen Rey have from the beginning. "She is untrained but stronger than she knows" - Kylo Ren. I do agree that she should have just blasted them away, but I still do not see it as being very controlled.

The issue with that though is they are still humanoid... When looking at martial arts from the dizzying variety of cultures on earth there are of course differences..but also MANY similarities.  Because of the similarities people.  Same goes here.  Yes its a weapon from another galaxy...but one that resembles one of ours.  There will be similar usages just based on pure body mechanics.  Force abilities can and should come into play as well as the fact Lightsabers are more like Escrima sticks than swords since there is no edge.  But the over choreographed twirlies isn't the way to go.  The fight Between Malgus, Satele, Kao Cen and Vindican is (imo) the best example of what a Fight should look like.  When slowed down each strike is precise and measured but doesn't look rehearsed  (CGI I know).  Flash and Force Abilities are used but don't break up the fight.  There are a few ways this can be fixed in the films.  I implemented these when I was filming a fan film and the fights turned out great...sadly and enraging...that film never saw the light of day and no longer exists.

1.)  Start the choreography from real world (not sport) combat.  Then work the flash into more naturally....if at all.
2.)   Less cohesion in the fighting style across characters.  All the Jedi and Sith trained almost the same way.... rarely if ever did this happen..at least in Europe.  I know in Japan there were whole schools of Swordsmanship that learned the same but even then there were other schools who fought differently.
3.)    This is cross genre.   Actors need to start training in Stage combat again.  Years ago any actor worth their salt had stage combat training.  When they did a film they already had a basis to build on by the choreographer.  No actors have little to no physical training until they get a part.  Some like Hugh Jackman or Chris Hemsworth that are already very active can take to the training easily.  But other will struggle and since film makers want that famous mug on screen as much as possible. We get over flashy and over done fights that for some of us..take us right out of the film.

4.)  A biggie and again, cross genre.  GET EXPERTS IN THE WEAPON!!  Now this doesn't apply too much to lightsabers, but when I see someone in a film using a saber with rapier techniques, or Katana with King Fu moves.... or an arming sword like a katana...irritating.


Forgive the ranr,  Fight choreography in film is like science for you.

Actually, technically a lightsaber blade is ALL edge, since it can cut in any direction. It's an issue I personally have when practicing with mine, as I tend to rotate them as if there was a single edge that I had to make sure was lined up correctly in order to cut.


An excellent fight to be sure, although Malgus' battle with Ven Zallow had some excellent examples of "things not to do in a fight."


1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.
4) Generally not as big a deal for me, but I can definitely understand it.

One HUGE thing for me in movies is that sooooo much combat is fighting for the sake of fighting, instead of fighting to end the fight (yes, I know why it's this way, so the famous good looking guy can show off his "moves" for fifteen minutes). I'm slightly disturbed to say this, but one of the best movie examples of fighting to end the fight is Blade. A lot of his fights, especially towards the end of the film, are 1-3 strikes meant to incapacitate, break bones, and just generally get his opponent out of the fight, then move on to the next opponent and repeat. Not five minutes with one guy, then five minutes with the next, and so on.

I'm at work, so I'm going to wait until I get home to respond to Logos.


Thanks. For the record, my response took several hours to think through and write out (and for at least an hour of that I was also debating with my stepson whether or not Anakin's fall to the Dark side was rational). There was a lot to respond too and this one was much more difficult than the last couple that ES83 has posted.

That's what I mean when I compared it to an Escrima.  Metal swords have edges and have to be held lined up with the true edge and need friction to cut and a lot of force to chop.  Lightsabers don't have to be line up and require less force to make cuts.  Its an interesting dynamic for a swordsman to think about since a lot of the physical movmenets needed for Swordsmanship are almost nulled.  Escrima is the closest I have found that could be a real world counterpart since its a rounded stick but held at the end like a sword (indeed Escrima I believe was used a practice for the short swords)...the only difference (now I may be wrong as much to my disappointment I haven't trained in escrima) since there is no cutting there is no follow through.




Yea, the fight in the temple with Zallow was a lot more flash...but it didn't irk me as much because it almost had a Wuxia feel to it....  and agreed on Blade.  His longest fight was with Frost and that makes sense because Frost was powered up at the time...

Excellent analysis (first post above).

Rey is a lazy attempt by the new trilogy writers to capitalize on the legacy of Star Wars. Kennedy may be a great film producer over many great films but she will never be recognized as a Star Wars story teller. Star Wars is one that she doesn't get. This is why Rey is becoming more and more unbelievable every time I watch TLJ at home.

I'm gonna blame that on decisions of the animators, and not get that deep into the meaning. Similar to how I don't believe that EVERY little minute change to a hilt design means the character built a new saber.


See? Small details ARE important. >:D

My problem with this mentality is this. Kyle was trained with a standard saber (1 blade). Then he @#$&s up his crystal utilizing a dumbass Disney technique, and now requires vents to prevent his saber from exploding. I'm dubious that he would learn an entirely different fighting style just because his weapon is messed up.

Also...

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All of these are Terran design. All have symmetric double edges for cutting/slashing and tapered points for stabbing. But you can hardly say that their respective fighting styles are similar. This kinda debunks that humans in a galaxy far far away are going to have similar fighting styles just because they have identical physiology.

IMO, I actually haven't seen saber combat to what I would classify as "pinnacle" utilization of the weapon. I would love to see saber technique where the blade is equal parts offense/defense
as well as distraction.


All my agrees.


I always viewed the drawn out nature of a saber fight to be half flashy choreography and half each side has the ability to sense what the other is about to do. So the real trick to winning is foreseeing what your opponent WON'T see coming.


Te he he


Again, this real world style would make a good basis, but would also have to be integrated with other styles in order to fully utilize it with this style weapon. I'm not opposed to real world techniques influencing saber styles, I just don't want to see straight outta the box styles being employed. I want to see styles that resemble something that was developed specifically to use THIS weapon.


I kinda love that feel.


Technically his longest fight was against Lamogra, who was significantly more powerful than the peons.


Oh God. You've actually watched it more than twice?

Ack! How did I miss THIS discussion!?

Rey is...weird for me. Where I do quite enjoy the new movies, Rey's an odd one.

FIRST i want to say these are my thoughts at the moment and since her arc is incomplete, I reserve any permanent judgements for post-RoS.

So my primary issue with Rey is actually closer to what Elven/No Kaze both touched on - I feel like she hasnt been properly tested yet. Thus far her big encounters have either been moral no-brainers, physical easy wins. In TFA Rey was able to glimpse and partially re-live Kylo's training when he was mucking around in her head, and gave her competency in combat, and ultimately used that to whup Kylo in conjunction with Kylo carrying a grievous wound for the battle. In TLJ we see her take on Praetorian guards mostly one at a time with quite a bit of difficulty, versus Kylo who takes on multiples at once (mostly) struggle free. They win that battle only through teamwork, and immediatley afterward Kylo basically tells her flat he's planning on murdering her friends. Not really an ethical challenge for the girl. Its easy to say she's overpowered or boring when she obtained secondhand training for free vicariously through Kylo, and hasnt really been tested yet. This is what I want RoS to address - I want her to be TEMPTED by the dark, and forced to fight for her life. No help, no freebies. I dont hate her character, and I'm skeptical to call her a Mary Sue since her powers do have some explanation, but her powers admittedly feel cheap on occasion.

I dont dislike Rey, but she's not a highlight for me. Hopefully RoS can give her a deserved moment to shine.

It was simple weak and detestable story telling that she gleaned ANYTHING from Kyle's failed probe. She has 0 skill, and 0 experience with the Force. So how the hell is she supposed to resist someone who does, steal his learnin', and then instantly put it to use?

Gonna log this one away (for now) as the incomplete arc. We really dont know who Rey is yet. If the Palpatine theory turns out to be true, being the psuedochild of one of the galaxies' greatest Sith might have that effect. But for now, I'm not satisfied saying either way.

Alright, I'm still at work, but Logos response time.


Yes.

I'm going to go with the Dark side has more "cool" powers. Like Force Lightning. "Ooooh, the Dark Side has better powers, I'm going to go join them." That, I think, was one of Palpatine's biggest temptations to Anakin. "Can one learn this power?" "Not from the jedi."

Yes.


Her staff combat skills are better than her lightsaber skills, and I'm not sure I would qualify them as "feral" (my lightsaber skills are better than what they show of her in the movies, but that's besides the point). Beyond the movies, do we actually know the extent of her combat experience (I don't know the answer to this, I'm asking)? My guess, based on what we see of her life, is that she's had a rough time of it and has had to fight to survive. Kylo, I think, may have more combat training, but much less combat experience, mostly because I don't think anyone he may have faced would have been any kind of challenge for him. While Rey's fights were probably life or death for her, Kylo's were mostly "I have the Force and a lightsaber, and it doesn't really matter what you have, I win." In that sense, you could say that Kylo has never really been tested as far as combat goes, and when he was.... well, he lost to Rey. One interesting thing, and it was probably only a choreography thing, but her skills with the lightsaber were better in TFA than they were in TLJ, especially when she was flailing around with it and accidentally cut the rock in half.


No one would confront them because the Force needed Satele to eventually be born.  ::)


Or because Girl Power AND she's not absolutely terrible. I'm perfectly willing to admit that just because I can come up with reasonable explanations for her doesn't mean that she isn't just KK wishing she were a jedi.


Just because she think's she's a nobody doesn't mean she wants to be one. That's why she's trying to find her place, because she thinks that when she does, she'll finally be someone. But she hasn't found where she belongs yet. She thought she would with Luke, but he told her to sod off. So she's still looking. Besides, if she was as "unwanted" as all that, why does Kylo keep trying to recruit her?


Pretty sure she used the Force, which she already thought was meant to be used for lifting rocks. I'm going to go back and re-watch it, but I'm not convinced that there were that many heavy rocks. From my memory, it was more quantity of the rocks, not quality (weight) of the rocks. We don't actually see how much effort it took her to move them, only her happy look of proving Luke wrong about the Force being used to move rocks (yeah, I guess Finnigan too, but whatever). I'm also not convinced that those rocks weighted more than an X-Wing.


I'm never going to not hate galen marek, and you're never going to not love him. We're never going to change the other's mind. Let's move on. You know what, fine. You take galen, I'm taking Vaylin. This should be a good fight.


I'm pretty sure the jedi definition of no attachments still allows friends. It just requires that you know when to let go of the friendship if needed. Like Obi-Wan did with Anakin.

And people do grow up in environments like hers, become upstanding people, rise above what they were given, and want to help others, especially help others who were once like they were. It happens in our world. Sure, those kind of people are 1 in 500,000, if that frequent, but they do exist. There are people who grew up in gang neighborhoods with a single parent working three jobs just to make ends meet, who rarely had enough food, dropped out of school, and more or less raised themselves. Yes, the very large majority of them don't make it out of the slums, the projects, the ghettos. But there are some who do, who want to be better, who want to make a difference and do the right thing. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility that she would be that kind of person.



"Join me, and we will rule the galaxy as father and son." - No mention of friends.
 "If you will not turn to the Dark side, perhaps she will." - If I cannot get you, I'll get other family members (although I don't think he had figured out just who Luke's sister was, otherwise he might not thought she'd join him. Or, more likely, he was just baiting Luke.).

Moving on:



Um, you just said that Kylo wouldn't learn a new way of fighting with his lightsaber because the weapon had changed, and then pointed out that different swords utilize different techniques.... I think Kylo would have to at least modify his fighting style somewhat, given the differences between a standard lightsaber and the crossguard version.


Saber Combat -
Look, there's a finite number of ways to use a sword, a finite number of ways to cut, stab, slice, slash, or impale your opponent.

However, there are at least two times, that I can think of that techniques were used that don't really have real world counterparts (oddly enough, they both involve removing hands), cuts that you could only really do with the omnidirectional blade of a lightsaber.
The first is when Vader takes Luke's hand off. He parries Luke's blade out of position, but cuts up from underneath to actually remove the hand. It's actually odd because Vader brings his saber down in order to bring it back up to cut off Luke's hand, instead of just cutting down from the end of the parry. If Luke had been trained more fully or had more experience, Vader's move would have actually given him time to move his hand out of the way, preventing it from being severed.

The second is when Anakin takes off Dooku's hands. He grabs Dooku's hands, locks them in place, then loops his saber under Dooku's hands and comes up to take them off. In looking at it, Anakin had A LOT of options once he grabbed Dooku's hands, including decapitation, amputation, running him through most of his vital organs, including his brain, bisecting him from skull to groin, and probably a hundred others. Instead he used a cut that could pretty much only be done with a lightsaber. Or at least one that's only practical with a lightsaber. Yes, in theory it could be done with a normal sword, but it would have been much more likely to just cut the arms, rather than amputate. Although I think if Dooku had reversed his grip fast enough, he could have at least cut Anakin's legs.


It's REALLY difficult to come up with a completely original and still viable combat style. Most of what we have now evolved over hundreds of years of battles, and even then are a blending of other styles and methods that came before them. I think the codification of the different lightsaber combat Forms is the closest you're going to get to creating original lightsaber combat styles. And if Disney had followed the EU, we would have got to see Luke's new jedi academy develop new lightsaber techniques to replace the loss of knowledge of the seven forms.

One other note on combat in general, it's (obviously) best to learn as many different types/styles/methods/techniques as possible. Even if they aren't ones that work for you, or that you'll use, you can still recognize them if your opponent uses them, and know how to deal with them. In Star Wars specific terms, this is an excellent reason for the Sith to study and learn the jedi lightsaber combat forms. I also get the impression that a decent amount of Sith combat techniques were lost with the rest of the Sith after the final battle of Ruusan (especially with the death of Kas'im).

More on lightsaber combat can be found here: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=2131.0)

and here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat/Legends (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat/Legends)


Oh yeah, we were talking about Rey...

I guess there is some truth in this, but I view it more in the sense of "The Sith (not dark side) do not put restrictions on knowledge or it's applications." In my personal view of the Sith, knowledge is the ULTIMATE power. Knowing how to manipulate the Force results in "many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

A staff is not terribly difficult to wield, and although she may have made an acquaintance growing up that taught her, I see nothing in TFA to suggest ANY kind of training or skill. Thus...'feral'. True, Kyle is a whiny emo brat, but that doesn't automatically discount the possibilities of him actually knowing how to handle himself in a real fight. Unlikely, but possible.

Always questioned how a married woman passed down her family name. Unless it's some strange atypical custom.

Nah. Beyond Daisy being cute, the character really is terrible. I could probably find better characters in a 10yo's fan fic.

Then she's a contradiction. A person that keeps on insisting that she's nobody isn't very convincing that she longs for the contrary. When a person wants to be somebody, they deny allegations that they aren't...fervently. Even if they have doubts that they may actually be a nobody, they fight it. Basically it falls down to psychology, and sadly I am not versed enough to adequately or accurately describe what I'm talking about.

For her first major lift, there were a lot. It's like making the decision to be a power lifter cuz you have an easy time lifting 100lbs and entering a competition on the level of Hafþór Björnsson.

The average size looked to be minimum of 150-200lbs. And either way, they was enough volume of stone to block a cave entrance. So whether it one giga-normous boulder, many large rocks, or a pile of gravel, it was still a considerable weight to move. And don't give me "size matters not". She didn't have that lesson. Who's Finnigan?

1) Don't quote someone unless they actually said it.
2) You can hate the OP awesomeness that is Galen Marek all you want, it doesn't change the fact that a) he had to train for a long time to get that awesome, and b) even he wasn't invincible. He dies......TWICE.
3) I assume you are referring to Valin Horn?

An attachment would be ANYONE that you couldn't stand to lose. Anakin and Obi Wan were friends. That is why Obi truly struggled with the task of facing Anakin, and favored going up against a foe that would surely and soundly whoop his ass. This struggle is one of many points of why the Jedi discourage attachment. Love complicates things.

They only do so when offered the choice. They have to be shown a different way. It may be confusing and sometimes conflicting at first but they eventually see the "higher road". But if left in their circumstance, there is no choice. "It is the way." :P

Father and son. That is still a relationship, and one that is supposed to be stronger than friends. Something something blood and water.

More like "I'll kill you and start over with my other kid." I am in agreement that he didn't know who the sister was, but was now aware of her existence. But he also says "Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends." Definitely baiting Luke. This falls under Dun Möch. He's poking at Luke's insecurities in an effort to throw his concentration. What ended up happening is Luke has a little brush with the Dark Side and unleashes his anger. I would get into the Dark Side being used for good, but that is an entirely different discussion.

Yes. Modifying is one thing, but changing styles all together is another. The traditional saber technique is heavily influenced by katana styles, which Ben <cringe> would have been taught, but then after he #$%&s up his saber Kyle fights with European broadsword styles. The physical difference between Ben's saber and Kyle's is minimal, so why change up just because of 2 new points to avoid?

And being finite creatures, we haven't explored them ALL. It has been my experience that the actual strike isn't the variant, but rather being able to move the weapon and body to a good position to deliver the strike, and also how to maximize the effectiveness of the particular weapon.

Agree on both counts. Even though the body is relatively easy to kill, taking it apart is a much more difficult task. In both cited instances, removal of the body parts is done with ease, as well as the offending weapon being raised vs. a traditional downward swing.

I won't dispute that inventing a complete new technique would be difficult, but on the other hand you're going to fight way differently with a a weapon that weighs the same as a flashlight than you would with one that weighs 20lbs. In a similar fashion, I also don't like the notion that its light weight means it's all about the deflection and stabby stabby nature of fencing.

Also, just because Sidious destroyed the Jedi, I'm not convinced that he destroyed everything in the archives. I'm pretty sure that Once Coruscant was liberated that he would have been able to get his hands on all kinds of Jedi data including the 7 forms.

Bane was instructed by Kas'im. But you also have to consider how many Jedi were turned and brought into the fold, adding Jedi knowledge to the Sith repertoire.

I know. Rey sucks.

No...Vaylin.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxkgcL8UkAAr9zI.jpg)

Daughter of Valkorion (aka Vitiate in a different form) and Sister to the twins from the Eternal Empire expansion from SWTOR.

Yes, I meant that Vaylin. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Vaylin

Yeah, wasn't terribly interested in the Eternal Empire.