Saber Forum

I've been practicing a bit lately, trying to put together a repertoire of tricks and flourishes to use both in "cinematic" dueling (non-scripted, but with an emphasis on making it look cool over actually winning, is there already a term for that?) and just general goofing off purposes.

I've become fond of a behind the back hand switch, into a short upward toss that's caught underhand with the opposite hand (Obviously not practical, it was in that hand to start with!) then leading into either an exaggerated upwards parry or cross body slash.  Video for clarity, although tragically the video quality isn't quite clear.  

I've devoured Banditcar's practice videos and many others on Youtube and was wondering if anyone else had any hidden gems they were rather fond of that they wanted to share.  



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7syD2O-qAk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7syD2O-qAk#)

Edit: For anyone who wants to try what's in the video - feel free to throw it a little higher to make it more obvious - I have a low ceiling and a ceiling fan right above me.  Also careful with your internals, make sure they're well secured and probably practice on soft flooring.  I lost one battery pack to the saber toss gods already, I've since wrapped the other ones in electrical tape so thick they don't move inside the saber and stopped practicing on stone flooring.

I have a lot of things that are considered "flashy" that I like to use in sparring... If you train the techniques up enough you may find use for them. I will say this, if the saber leaves your hand you have a higher chance of dropping it during a duel.... That being said I'm working on something that makes use of tossing the saber during a duel to create various unorthodox openings.

Not nearly good enough for demonstration videos yet but it's getting here.

I'll be interested to see those.  ;D

And yeah, my biggest fear while thinking about incorporating this into an unscripted match is my saber getting batted away by my opponent. It'll almost certainly happen at some point.  Still, once I get a bit faster at it and smooth out the hand switch it'll probably be downright confusing to whoever is on the other side of it.

I like to use just a bunch of fancy spins, ending With a slash either left or right. Its about all I can do also, xD

This was pure luck... (or whatever you prefer to call it) but I was sparring with one of my friends who is a darn good swordsman. We were sparring and I decided to practice my little tosses and switches. I waited for him to hit the blade and I let my hilt spin free of my hand. Now when he hit, he hit harder than I anticipated and I gave my lightsaber a little push as well. My lightsaber went flying in the air straight up. I was shocked naturally (even though I was the idiot who planned this) I finally regained my composure and noticed that my buddy was in more shock than I was. I saw his face just in time for him to snap out of it, but it was too late I caught my lightsaber and spun free of his attack catching his blade on the spin.... It was such an epic little accident. Can't wait til I can do that on purpose.

nice! i like a few flourishes, my personal fave is one everyone calls 'the obi-wan/anikin back spin' seen in ROTS.  also An over the back spin im working on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkZjQNsv23Y# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkZjQNsv23Y#)

would look better if saber was on, but sunny day (rare in uk lol)

That's one I implement into my spinning quite a bit... I like to sort of segue from that into other spinning, and even some more practical stuff (cuts, parries, stabs, etc).  With some practice, it's pretty easy to move from an Obi-Ani into a figure 8 and vice versa, so you can just continually spin and try out different permutations.

Hmm maybe we should post some videos here to show the applications of said techniques.

That's a good idea.  Actually, Artorius and I developed a small choreo sequence where we tried to make the Obi-Ani a functional move (it fits in nicely as a sort of Soresu parry, actually).  I find the behind the back spin tends to invite an opponent's attack, but the momentum from said spin as you come around provides a nice opportunity for an across the body parry... not sure what it's called otherwise, but in fencing it would be something like a "Parry 1", or "Prime".

If you watch my sparring. I rarely spin without doing a behind the back spin, it works because I usually catch my opponents blade before spinning. Ties up their blade and prevents an attack while I'm spinning. That's one application for the Ani Obi spin.

i find it hard to pull off the ani/obi spin in a duel - i tend to panic a little when their saber attempts to slice me! it is good for making them think i like to spin in a duel, so they are suprised when i hit 'em in the knee...

I think if people start learning the applications for the flourishes and spins they will find it easier to use them in sparring matches.

seems to me one of the things i do more often than not is hold the hilt high with the blade pointing down and use various spins to sort of make what ends up looking like a lightsaber umbrella, using it to pick off higher attacks and redirect the momentum for counter attacks, making a habit of it unfortunately

leaves my midsection too open

though being on ly 5'8" most of the guys im dueling are a good bit taller than me, and they tend to go for a lot of overhanded blows, and even mid attacks for them seemt o be closer to shoulder height for me, so it sorta works

What you speak of in our world is called the guard of the hawk. Definitely sounds like Djem So... Watch Anakin in Episode II he uses that style a lot.

yeah, obi wan seems to when defending against anakin in episode 3 as well if i recall, i gotta watch all those fights again soon to get some inspiration before heading out for dueling saturday night

i believe the obi-ani is half of a plum blossom flourish, but i could be wrong on the name.

After watching that I've definitely got to learn to spin around more when doing tricks, I'm usually pretty static - feat planted, that really livened things up a bit.

Also, according to a video I watched by some NY Jedi guys, you are correct Shami. 

I love to spin my saber and it's probably my favorite thing to do. I also try and apply it ever time i'm using my saber. This also ties in with the Ataru style we are trying to create, LK! 

One thing I think should be mentioned about the sword flowers or spins often done with bladed weapons: The idea of these exercises is not to use them as spins per say but rather to train and pattern the arcs and circles that are used to change the position of the blade, parry, or attack. While it is rare that one would do the entire arc in combat (I must admit to laughing historically at the "Obi-Ani" spin thing in the ROTS) each portion of the circles or figure eights is useful even if not used within the larger arc. While the static position of holding the blade behind the back seems intuitively wrong for combat, we must remember that cobalt is a dynamic process that is changing very quickly. Many times a matches decided by one limitation in range of motion where the sword wielder is unable to successfully parry.

Even tosses are common in ancient weapon use, especially with drawing and hand switching. The training technique, again, has little obvious use against an attacker, but the ability to catch your weapon as it flies through the air is a skill that can be very helpful.

My philosophy has always been don't train something if you aren't going to use it. For my experience, techniques that I have trained in that I don't use in combat... are techniques that I haven't developed yet enough to use in combat.

There are no useless techniques... The stuff we see today is the product of thousands of years of perfecting the art of war. Specifically the few thousand year period where melee combat was the norm. Reverse grip has it's application for quick drawing of the bladed weapon.

The basic tenants of sword combat are these

Rhythm (or timing), which simply stated is the manner in which your opponent, or yourself attacks and defends. I.E. watch any sword combat to music... your brain will sync up their moves with your music. That essentially is rhythm.

Distance (or reach), The amount of space it takes for you to reach me, or for me to reach you... you will find that the two are somewhat disconnected... Meaning just because you can't reach me, doesn't mean I can't reach you. Some of us have experienced this first hand.

Footwork, Your ability to move efficiently in combat, so you can locate close with and destroy your enemy, or evade, or bait your opponent.

Bladework, your ability to utilize a bladed weapon to attack or defend.

Now this is purely my experience, and opinon... but spins have saved me from getting hit many times in sparring matches... both empty handed and with weapons... there is a certain advantage to using fancy footwork and spins to evade your opponent's attacks... One if my blade is free to move without having to worry about your blade... my blade has more of a chance of making contact with flesh and bone than your blade. This is what I have come to realize is very significant of Ataru, or some of the more oriental forms of martial arts... Tai Chi, for instance. This is what I refer to as a "leaf in the wind" meaning your opponent tries to hit you, but your body responds to their movement with simultaneous movement in the same direction... I.E. Evasion. So you can see how spinning your body can be advantageous... yet it is something we call a "movie magic" move... Yet martial artists have been employing spins for both evading, and building momentum for attacks for a long time. Footwork of this caliber requires a dedication to training... going up against opponents who have weapons (training weapons preferably) while you are unarmed... This is the best way to learn evasion, and how spins can keep you alive.

Next we have flourishes, ah the flashy fancy moves that "have no value" in real combat. Yet with my Bo staff flourishing was a regular way to thwart off an attack, and this was in a highly traditional form of martial arts, that incorporated little to no "flashy" techniques. Likewise I have seen other oriental martial arts incorporate flourishes into their sword arts... They are useful for feints, keeping your opponent back, and even for guarding your back when you pivot and spin. Flourishing can be a way to throw off your opponents Rhythm, or a way to efficiently and fluidly cover distance. This all requires an innate knowledge of blade mechanics, and your own skill level. The best way to do this is to start slow... Figure out where you are open when you are doing a given technique, if that spot is open use your knowledge of evasion to close that opening down. Then try it out in a sparring match... figure out what isn't working, and don't give up on a technique because you think it won't work... Try tweaking it to your own body, everyone's body is different, so every technique must be slightly different to account for your body.

I like what you said about switching hands... I do that frequently because it is a quick way to find an opening... how many times have you seen an opening in an area you can't get to because you're right handed? Being able to switch at will is a great way to throw your opponent off.

Same can be said for tossing your saber... You can really throw someone off by doing it, but so many things can go wrong, and you need to be able to account for that. Same as you said Darth Nonymous, being able to catch your weapon is a good trait to have. Especially if you find yourself getting disarmed.


You bring up good points, I just think that spinning and flourishing, have more place in combat than most of us realize.

I seem to often be alone in this realm though. So I understand if people want to disregard the words of a crazed Mandalorian turned Jedi Knight.

I'm thinking of spins as kettle bell swings. They are non-specific movement patterns. The neuromuscular system integrates these into gross movement patterns which lay the foundation of skilled technique and finally fluid and natural reaction. Yes, my point was there are no Useless moves, but I  also advocate a more abstract interpretation. There are conditions factors that have systemic effect beyond mere "combat usage". The sword flower exercise is especially useful for longsword practice and the added length is more challenging to change position. shoulder stability, core strength and flexibility are all benefits that outweigh the direct combat application even if it was a high percentage, and more common.

It also depends on what you are calling a "spin". What I refer toys the full figure eight pattern and the practice of rotating the blade continuously around one's body (be it front or back etc.). The portions I am talking about are say one rotation around the hand, or a quick flying behind the back.

The whole of the post was interesting  :)

Specifically, throwing your saber...this has come up in other threads and I had more time to think about it...I am of the mind, currently, that if this happened then it would be clear that the thrower does not consider my eyes, teeth, and in general my health and well being as being of any real value...this being clear, I would drop my saber and drop them...from a position of advantage I would hope my training would take over and I would be about to stop at this point...but that saber thrown, it would be mine...I am clearly on the 100% intolerant to the idea of throwing a saber at someone.

Spinning and flourishes, during choreography would be a wonderful tool indeed...in an actual duel it would greatly depend if the person you were facing would be the type to be amazed or easily distracted...face a controlled focused opponent and the spin or flourish may be a commitment too far...they are fun in moderation for sure!

Many saber players seem to favor the spinning and flashy flourishes, so I doubt you are alone in that boat...but I am not in it  :)

I do like the idea of the spin or flourish for the salute, upon separation, and after the fight to put some stank on it   ::)

I see what you mean now. Figure 8s even have their place if you ask me... but they have to be used tactically... You can't just throw figure 8's around because you like them, you have to learn when to use them.


I don't mean throwing your blade at someone... Without proper protective gear... and a complete disregard for your lightsaber hilt... Throwing your blade at someone is what I consider a "fair game" move... Meaning... if you throw your lightsaber at me... it is "fair game" for me to take you down! lol.

No I meant tosses for switching hands or switching grips.

what all martial arts have you taken Relmeob? You definitely know your stuff... Just wondering where the bulk of your experience lies. Forgive me if you've stated this before.

The bulk, the ones I focused the most time and effort into...USJA Judo, AJA Jujitsu (Japanese classic), Shotokan, Kenpo...I studied/tested up to shodan/nidan in those styles (1st and 2nd degree is traditionally the first step for becoming an instructor, it means you know all teh basics and how to apply them).

The color and flavor styles...just about anything that can reasonably found here in the states...some of the more exotic styles would include Stone Throw Monkey Pek Kwar (kung fu), Limalama (Hawaiian Kenpo), Choy Li Fut Kung Fu, and Pencak Silat.

To be sure I tried the sports of Taekwondo (USAT & ATA), western boxing, and Fencing (USFA)...TKD was just silly as an institution that you buy belts (there are many great TKD practitioners out there, I was speaking of the majority of paper black belts)...boxing, I truthfully do not like having to get punched in the face every day and all the older boxers had slurred speech...fencing, I am dislocated at this time or I would still be doing it, though I did grow tired of all the gyms catering to babysitting.

All in all I found that I had become a bit of a collector...as I moved around the world in the military I would get stationed for six months to a year in a new place like New York City, Chicago, or Miami and the first thing I would do is look up the local martial arts and sign up for anything different.

It has been fun... ;D

Nice... I'm trying to find a school that teaches wushu around here... There's one that I found online, but I'm not sure how legit they are... I suppose I'll have to find out for myself. That and I really want to take Tai Chi... Health benefits... not to mention when you speed up those techniques.... Boom!

I really want to start learning acrobatics

Lucky for you there are tons of schools in Southern Cali!

Tai Chi is a blast!

My first night I threw up...the initial walk, from one end to the other, breathing with full core breath, low sweeping stances, "holding the ball", in a non AC room, in South Florida, for and hour and a half non-stop...puked my guts out.

I toughed it out when I should have taken a break.

And you are 100% right, speed the same movements up and you end up with snap.

The ultimate in Tai Chi is the ability to change the center of personal gravity...I have never seen it, sounds like magic...but the balance, focus, breathing, etc. is great stuff.

I would look into this gym

http://www.whitedragonmartialarts.com/get-started/ (http://www.whitedragonmartialarts.com/get-started/)

They have several around you...and it is based upon Choy Li Fut! Tai Chi is also taught there and they have MMA training...all things I suspect would fit your desires.  I looked at their site and they seem on the up and up...certainly worth a look!

They do seem like a good school... but at 150 bucks a week... I just can't do that.

Hey dudester!

I called the instructor to find out what the deal was...at that price range it had better be something special...lol.

It is $192 a month with unlimited access to the gym, the various classes, etc.

And I get it...that adds up quickly.

Do you still have access to the base?  Usually there are classes on base, but still $30-$45 to $50 a week is about average...works out to $5-$6 a day 5-6 days/nights a week.

To be completely truthful here my friend, you are on a decent path already, just secure a decent video and work through some of the forms, then decide if you need more.

Your sabering will improve and you will have stop/start options.

:)