Saber Forum

I am a total novice and as you can tell by my name I am a huge Form II fan. However, how should I begin learning this? Should I start with Form I first and then learn Form II, or just learn Form II? Furthermore, I know that Form II is based on fencing, so I suppose I could just find a fencing club and learn that in order to learn Makashi? I don't know if that is true or not, just a guess. As for Form I, I have no clue how to even begin tackling that.

I live in Oregon so if anyone is out here and are willing to teach novices the ways of the lightsaber, I would be forever grateful :)

Martial Arts and Fencing Schools are great places to start.  You can also work to self teach by watching YouTube videos.  One of our resident Masters, Nero, is a really great fencer.  I have asked him several questions about single hand combat and he has yet to steer me in the wrong direction.  Find him on the forums and shoot him a PM.  He'll be a great source of information.

Blue took what I had to say again.

Oops, forgot to put "notify" on... silly me. Thanks again guys, lol. I'll be sure to ask Nero and look into fencing schools and videos. Thanks!

What part of Oregon you from? I live in Vancouver, WA. But pretty much everything everyone else is saying is right. Nero would probably be the easiest way. Lucien might be able to help as well. He seems very knowledgeable about combat.

I live in Sherwood. Thanks, I already sent a private message to Nero asking for advice :)

lol oh hey! Thanks for the tip of the hat there Stockton! It is appreciated!

Form II, is a lot of fun, I recommend watching fencing videos as a base... and then watching what count Dooku does to put your own personal flair into it. A lot of what we are doing is really in the development stages... So there's A LOT of room for interpretation right now. The easiest way to start, is in reality, take formal sword training, and then apply that to lightsaber combat. The hard way, is start sparring, find out what works what doesn't and forge your own way. The middle ground between that is watch youtube videos, make youtube videos, get pointers from experienced swordsmen on forums like this, and be a student of life! lol.

Really though the possibilities are endless... Welcome, you've taken your first step into a larger universe!

Thank you Lucien, those are really helpful tips  :) And thank you, I am glad to be a part of this exciting universe  ;D I think I shall train in fencing, it seems to be the best way, plus I do so much better with hands-on instruction rather than anything else. I shall also take your advice on watching Dooku. He is actually the reason why I ended up loving Form II so much.

What I really want to do is actually choregraph fights with other people and make videos and such, but I'm getting way ahead of myself there. Haha, got to remember to take things in stride  ;)

It will happen and before long you will called master.  Best of luck and please make a video when you start doing choreography.  You'll  find that we really like pictures and videos around here.

Thanks for wishing me luck :) I will definitely make a video. Hopefully I can find people on this forum that live close to me. Also, I'm just curious, but isn't 'master' just a title given to admins? In any case I don't think I would do anything to deserve that title.

Not always.  We have people on here that are high ranks in Martial Arts as well.  I believe that MAV is a 2nd Dan and Nero is a Master Fencer if I am not mistaken.  Some of our guys are Marines that in my opinion makes them master shooters.  That was to what I was referring. 

Ah, very cool!

Yup, the position of Resident Master around here refers to people that have a great deal of experience in a field related to swordsmanship (martial arts, fencing, etc) that allows them to provide insight into LED lightsaber combat.

Thanks for the plugs guys, I'm flattered!  Actually it's probably perfect timing, because I was planning on doing some kind of video with the help of my buddy Artorius this weekend... I can't make any promises, but the two of us were hoping to get some instructional vids for you guys by Sunday.

As I told MakashiDeviant, learn fencing.  It's so Form II it isn't even funny.  Every aspect of Makashi just screams fencing, and once you get comfortable enough with fencing itself you can fairly easily adapt it to LED lightsaber combat.  Point control, agility, footwork... all these things you learn from fencing, and all are vital in Makashi.

Thank you Nero  :) I eagerly await the videos, but I won't be heartbroken if they don't come, haha.

Just about to read your message actually. I've been so swamped with emails and its a bit overwhelming.

No problem Lucien! You probably have the most dueling knowledge here so i had to!

lol Well I dunno about the most, but I do cross blades often. I would say some of the masters here are WAY more knowledgeable than I... Heck, our very own Jedi Relmeob easily has twice the martial arts training I have. I just put myself out there a lot. Probably more than I should! hehe  ;D

Nah, your contributions are greatly appreciated.  It would be one thing if you were telling people what to do without the experience to back it up, but considering your extensive (and varied) knowledge base, it's a very good thing that you do so!

Besides, I'm a big fan of variety.  What you bring to the table is very different than what Artorius and I do, so it provides a new viewpoint to consider.  Always a beneficial thing IMO.

Thanks Master Attoru, I appreciate the kind words! I agree as well, variety is the spice of life.

I thought the spice from Dune was the spice of life  >:( (I'm kidding).

Shh! We don't want people to know that.... Geez let the cat out of the bag why don't you!

Haha... Seriously though back on topic.... Also reading descriptions of the seven forms can help you get started. Research what form you like the best... there are some pretty good break downs in books like the Jedi Path, Jedi vs. Sith, etcetera are good places to source info on the seven forms.

Also there is a good breakdown of the seven forms on this forum... *looks at Ulios*

WHAT!? I've done nothing! You can't prove it! I was dead at the time, with Steve, for tax purposes and....

...oh...you meant the Seven Forms paper....uhm...

Joking aside, I'd give the paper a go, tell me what you think and if it helps. It's stickied on the Way of the Saber section

Hilarious  ;)

I actually already checked out Ulios's guide to the seven forms, but thanks for the recommendation. I'll definitely look into those books as well  :)

I personally love the Jedi Path, and the Jedi vs. Sith books, but Ulios honestly covered just about everything in his thread. So unless you really enjoy the reading material, with respects to lightsaber combat, he's covered all of that I believe.

He definitely did.  It's very informative, and will give ANYONE a useful new perspective on the Forms.

It's a good mix of canonical content and logical extrapolation.

It was definitely an enjoyable read  :) I still want to get the books though, just so I can further expand my knowledge of the Star Wars universe.

MakashiDeviant,
This website ( http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/1033322 (http://www.communitywalk.com/map/index/1033322) ) displays schools and individuals around the country (There are several groups listed in the Portland area) who are practicing western martial arts (WMA) sometimes referred to as Historic European martial Arts (HEMA), in other words sword based martial arts from medieval/renaissance Europe. There is a lot of cross over compatibility to working with a light saber.

I'd also like to make a shameless plug for Darth Nonymous's tutorial videos. He's been posting them in the forum and they are all available at his Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber?ob=0 (http://www.youtube.com/user/TerraPrimeLightsaber?ob=0)

Safe journey.

Thank you, I shall definitely look into this further :)

How would i message nero? and would he be able to help with form VII (juyo)?

Hey man, you can just click on my name and it'll take you to my profile.  From there you can just hit "Send this member a personal message" and write something up.

I can help you out a bit with Juyo, but for that particular Form I'd say Master Artorius Vidnyl and/or Master Nonymous are your go to guys.  I'd be happy to chat a bit about it though, and help you through anything you need assistance with.

how may i get in contact with them?

Raises hand OOH OOH!!! I have studied a lot on Juyo lol.

Juyo is incredibly kinetic, but staccato... meaning the attacks aren't necessarily fluid. As with Ataru your entire goal is to make things fluid like a river, taking the path of least resistance to become an unstoppable force.

Juyo is more like the Ocean beating against a cliff face. There's almost no rhyme or reason. There is, but it may not be evident to your opponent, as a matter of fact that's what you're banking on.

Sorry Lucien, I should have included you!  I just wasn't sure of your specialties... I know Artorius is a big user of Vaapad (for him its second only to Soresu) and I saw some Juyo in a TPLA vid.

That said, great description!  If I had to go with one word for Juyo it would be "unstoppable"... unlike Ataru or Djem So, which have a degree of control, Juyo is best utilized by a master swordsman who can add the extra fuel emotion provides and just cut loose.

Yeah Juyo is unstoppable force... That is why the Jedi frowned on it so much... Think about it this way... Juyo would directly relate to what Special Forces guys are taught for combat... Brutal application of precise force... You hit harder and faster than anyone else until your enemy stops moving... Then you move on to the next opponent... rinse and repeat.

To be able to spar with Juyo or Vapaad in mind is dangerous in and of itself, I recommend gaining a lot of control before you do so.

I need to do a video where I free form all seven forms to show where my curriculum is going, and to give sample teasers of what I've been working on... I may do that Monday.

Very nice man, I'd love to see it!

About Juyo, I agree completely - a Form like that is something only a VERY experienced swordsman should practice, especially against a sparring partner.  The whole point of the Form is to let go and unleash that killer instinct, focused through the practiced technique of a skilled warrior, so to bring that into a practice scenario is very dangerous.

Same way. Shoot me an email. Or ask something here.

I've had a sparring match with a friend of mine that started slow, but ended up ramping up the speed and power. I'm not going to claim that we used Juyo in our sparring match, but we definitely pushed past our physical limitations through sheer force of will alone. Our ultrasabers held up amazingly well, considering that our missing slashes and sweeps carved through the dense dirt of the sparring area. Channeling all of our inner darkness into the fight, lasting several hours without a single break. While it was pretty awesome and scary as hell, we definitely paid for it with sore bodies the next day.

The thing you have to remember about Juyo... and the thing that people forget about Juyo is this... It's not blind rage or just unbridled aggression. It's focused aggression... Like a cutting torch. A cutting torch doesn't do anything but heat up your material until you focus it. Juyo is precise aggression channeled specifically at a target. The strikes may be unconnected, but there is still no wasted movement.

Also be careful when engaging in full force sparring like that, it only takes one of those strikes to ruin your day... and possibly your week.

Just giving a little plug at safety here lol.

So would there be any way to learn Juyo without being a skilled swordsman? Unfortunately its the only actually do-able style that i like and would feel most comfortable with

You can do anything you want. But keep in mind, that the type of out look and stately Juyo advocates is just wildly swinging a weapon around, if you have no skills to build off of.

I am curious, what do you mean by "do-able"?

theres a form i believe is called tarakata or something close to that which involves blocking with your blade then bringing the blade into the saber and releasing the blade back out just before you strike the body which obviously cant be done with US

Yes, That would be Trakata[/u]. One of the techniques was to fool your opponent by moving your blade in for a block, but at the point of contact, disengage your blade and dodge. Thus, leaving them off balance and open to attack.

It would not be something that you could make actually happen.

If you were fast enough, you could move in to the block, but at the point of contact dodge and release your wrist, allowing your opponents blade to push yours out of the way. It would really only work once in a duel, and only if the person attacking is putting everything in to the swing.

I also wouldn't suggest doing it, since the swing would need to be pretty beasty to throw the person off balance, you could end up hurting your wrist.  (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tr%C3%A0kata)

You just learn to utilize the strength of your opponents strikes against them.... It's textbook Djem So... redirecting your opponents attack back at them. You take the strike and use it to fuel one of your own.

Just learn the basics, and then apply Juyo to that, I'm just saying safety is key, as an avid Juyo practitioner, you need to learn a lot of control before you go romping around utilizing a brutal form in friendly sparring matches.

I concur 100%.  There's a reason Vaapad and Juyo are considered advanced Forms, and that is the mindset aspect.  You can definitely learn different aggressive techniques that Juyo employs, but it won't truly be Juyo until the internal requisite is met, and that is what makes sparring so dangerous.  This is why we stress that you learn control before employing it.

Not to mention rage-driven combat without technique is MUCH easier to counter and defeat.  The reason for the Form's deadliness is that it's focused rage, as Lucien has said.

My advice would be to work on Shii-Cho for a while, then study other aggressive Forms such as Ataru and Djem So.  Juyo is distinctly different, but definitely takes parts from both of those styles... so IMO they would be a good place to build a foundation (after Shii-Cho of course).

Well i wasnt going to go into Juyo blindly and just channel anger against my foe, i was going to have some basic coaching on strikes and control and what not but just not a super in depth form that would be Juyo too far away from reach you know?

That was my point really.  Start with the basic strikes of Shii-Cho, and then give those techniques a specific focus - on aggression - to prepare yourself for Juyo.  After that it's a matter of learning to harness that anger.

Yeah we aren't trying to rain on your parade, or even tell you you're too inexperienced to learn a fictional form of martial arts. It's just that when you're sparring and you decide to take the role of aggressor, there's a measure of control you must learn before you do this because if you don't learn that control you'll hurt yourself and others.

I think that by learning the basics first and then getting some sparring time in you'll learn how to apply aggression properly and safely. Let's face it this is an aggressive sport we engage in, so safety is paramount. Due to the fact that we've never met you before, and so that others who are interested in Juyo will know we have to state that Juyo is not just going berserk on your opponent.

Here is a perspective that I think anyone can appreciate.  The 7 forms of Lightsaber combat are like learning forms and kata in any martial arts.  There are basic moves that one must learn and then you learn to combine those moves into more advanced moves.  Basics are always there.

No martial art (or lightsaber form) is designed to be a one size fits all.  You will find that the Masters are very comfortable with one to two forms and will go to those most often.  As a learner, you will find that you will do the same.  My Master loves moves for short small guys because that is what he is.  I am a taller and bigger guy therefore I like moves that fit my body style.  No matter who or what I am fighting, I will often when tired revert to the moves that I am most comfortable with and have the most muscle memory surrounding. 

All martial arts and lightsaber forms are meant to build muscle memory and give you the basics.  In a real situation against a fluid opponent, you will find that no matter how long or hard you train, something is going to happen that will not occur as you expected.  During a recent training session, I performed a self defense technique that is one of my favorites and my opponent unexpectedly leaned into a full force crescent kick and I knocked my opponent out.  The kick is meant to quickly trap an opponent's arm as 99% will lean away from the kick.  This one tried to duck and it was lights out.  Now I know that I have to be on guard for the 1% that will lean into kicks or I could seriously hurt someone during training.

Now to the final point of this post.  Train with all forms and learn the basics of all 7 forms.  Find two forms that suit you the best (and get outside input on this as well) and work the more advanced moves in those as you get better.  When against someone for sparring or during a choreography, always be aware of potential issues that could cause someone to get injured and be on guard for the unexpected.  This is why the Masters always stress using protection.  Go max during sparring and try to incorporate some costume pieces that could also protect you in choreography. 

A final added lesson I recently learned on my disappearance to Philly:  Sometimes you have to step back and reassess a situation.  Stress and challenges are part of life but fun and relaxation are equally important.

Blue