Saber Forum

You asked for it. You got it.

The following are 3 videos that detail 6 blocks (3 pairs) and 3 cuts. First video is cuts. Second blocks. Third is a little practice combination.

"How should I practice these?" You are not going to like my answer.

“I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.” <-- If you don't know who said that, shame on you. I've been spouting his wisdom since I joined the forum a year ago.

Here are the cuts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brQ2d24OedQ# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brQ2d24OedQ#)

Here are the blocks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78KmrBFN1a8# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78KmrBFN1a8#)

Here is the pattern:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NHVZTXOblk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NHVZTXOblk#)

Side notes: "Why shouldn't we break the horizontal plane? I saw you screw up and do it two or three times!"

Point conceded. Here is the why: As a beginner you must learn control. Need I quote Yoda? This gives you a feel for creating a good clean cut. If you decide to learn Makashi then this will keep your blade in a place where it can quickly and accurately defend an oncoming attack, or allow you to riposte.

"Wait, then why did you break the plane and why is it ok?"

That's my stupid Soresu sneaking in. If you want to use the momentum of a cut in the next block or strike (flow like Soresu or build power like Djem So) then you will EVENTUALLY learn to break the plane. Right now, don't do it. Please.

Again, “I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.” Do these until you're sick of them. Then do them for another 3 years.

Another quite anecdote [Paraphrased from memory]:

A student once approached the master and asked, "How long will it take to earn the highest rank?" The master replied "Very long."
The student was disappointed and asked "What if I work twice as hard?" The master replied "Twice as long."

I love these videos... that's really all I can say.  They're not only simple, but the instruction given is invaluable.  The most helpful part (from my point of view, as someone watching looking to learn) is the emphasis on performing the techniques the RIGHT way.  I think that's something I'll have to focus more on next time I release a video.

Great stuff, anyone who wants to start learning our methods this is the place to begin.

Yes this is it! Thanks for these vids, the are clear, good and just...excelent for someone who's looking to begin. I like the fact that control is a big part. Not to break that horizontal plane, its harder than it looks, at least that was for me. I plan on doing this. As you said until i get so sick of it. The sun btw makes an excelent VA saber color right there xD

I found me a place where i can train. Tomorrow im headed there, so i will be doing this alot. Looking forward on the next lessons!

Thank you!

CbrS*

PS: im also keeping my eye on the other topic, much wisdom there with you and Master nonymous!

I just want to take this opportunity to point out that this fits right into our theory of lightsaber combat - that the Forms are more philosophies than specific sets of techniques.  Master Vidnyl shows the most basic (and essential) of moves here, and you can see the parallels to this video of Makashi parries I made a little while back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3G-5Ad4vo#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3G-5Ad4vo#ws)]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ3G-5Ad4vo#ws

Notice the similarities?  Basically the same parries, and rather similar ripostes, except executed with one hand.

Learn the basics people, they're important!

Yay for the color purple!!!

Great vids guys! These are some great things to know.

I have that same practice sword as you MAV. I also have one in red.

 8) very nice videos mav i like how you did them perfect for a beginer and nero i agree with tratus nice saber and again good vid be on the look out for more looking forward to neros shien and mav ill wait for your dual weilding shien and lastly ive been on jedi covenant after the transfer let me know if the guilds back up i still have my sentinel  :o

Im very excited to see some more from you Vidnyl! I have been practising these basics over and over again, last weekend almost 3 hours straight. Ofc not nearly enough as i am still not sick of it xD Feels like grinding in a game, and i like grinding. Thanks to these basics i feel i am more in control and have more awareness of my saber.
 
So il just ask xD Could you please make a vid for the next "lesson"? I do not know if there are any but if, i would LOVE to see it! And like Shalateaus said, maybe something about dual wielding =D

CbrS*

Thanks for the tutorial.  I have no martial arts experience, I've only read about various techniques and such.  I don't consider myself completely incompetent when swinging my saber but I will be the first to admit that when not choreographing a routine and actually fueling my 'form' lacks anything in the regards of being consistent and fluid.  Thanks to your video I'm already noticing a difference with my blocks and counter attacks :)

And if you look around you'll find this foundation in many places.
Aside from some variations in the construction of the weapon the body mechanics of weapon use are going to show up as similar techniques when you're using similar weapons.

(http://i.imgur.com/Oafjr.png) (http://imgur.com/Oafjr)


Everything comes back to the basics.
If your basics are sloppy then everything that builds from them will be sloppy too.

This is exactly why I chose these techniques. I must agree 100%! If your basics are sloppy you will be defeated easily.

Finally getting around to going through these threads, as I've meant to for some time. Have to say I'm loving this stuff, and look forward to learning more. :)

I have a question, Master Vidnyl - why are the strikes designed only to cut with the tip section of the blade? Does this give the most power, allowing the arms' force to multiply through the rest of the blade (like a golf club)? Or is it more precise not to come closer and strike with more of the blade?

A wonderful question! This concept is taken from my experience in Japanese Bladed arts (iaijutsu, kenjutsu). The weapon is treated like a lever. The greatest force when manipulating a lever with a fulcrum (or stationary point) is generated at the end furthest from the fulcrum. In katana work the right hand acts as a kind of fulcrum and the left hand pulls up, forcing the far end of the katana down (for these techniques at least). The greatest power is then generated at the last few inches.

There are other reasons too. If you were to cut down into a body with the middle of the blade there is a good chance with how wide the metal becomes that your weapon would get caught in a bone or joint (not an issue for a lightsaber). If you were effecting a dragging cut then you would use the entire length of the blade (placing the blade on exposed skin or other area lacking reinforcement and then just running the blade along that spot).

Wonderful question! Let me know if I answered it for you.

Cheers.

This makes complete sense from a physics point of view, and I just love the union of science and martial arts.  Leave it to Artorius to know the physics of slicing and dicing people ;)

As he said, a lightsaber avoids many of these problems.  However, this rule of thumb is still very useful to stick to for one simple reason - distance.  By using the upper portion of the blade, which in a lightsaber has no more or less cutting ability than any other part, you're allowing yourself the ability to retain some distance from the opponent.  Just another perk of this method to consider.

As someone with absolutely no fencing experience, if I may ask - what is a riposte? I do know what lunges and parries are (not that that is any merit :P) but I first heard about 'ripostes' on this forum.

Riposte is a french word for "response or retort". It is usually a strike delivered after a successful parry.

Oh, that makes sense! Wouldn't that make them the focus of (for instance) Djem So?

Yes, they are quite important in Djem So!  That's a good observation, since Djem So uses principles which turn defense into attack.

Of course, they're useful in any Form, since a well executed riposte can take advantage of an unprepared opponent finishing his or her attack.

Do you think one of you resident Masters could post a video thread detailing some techniques for the riposte? It sounds integral to multiple forms (Makashi, Shien and Djem So in particular if my insight is correct), but I don't know any specific techniques to use in their execution.

Sure, that could be arranged!  Suggestions are always nice, that way I know what you guys are looking to learn more about.  I'll try to get a vid made up with the gf soon, and if I happen to hang with Artorius in the near future we can put something together then too.

One of the basic principles mentioned in the print material for Djem So is the "Fluid Riposte".
There are elements of it showing up in some of the demonstration videos I've done on Djem So
though I have not called out anything specific so far.

I have a question about the final blade placement on your side to side blocks.

On a downward strike, intended to start just on the inside of the shoulder, would it not make more sense to finish your block close to 6 inches past your body? If the strike was intended to cut my shoulder, and I finish my block at my shoulder there is still an innately inherent danger of a draw down my arm. Whereas, if you finish your block just outside of your body you still retain power and control while removing the danger of losing an arm.

I just started lightsaber combat and previously did a lot of one handed freestyle boken work with a friend, so transitioning into Ataru is a very natural step for me. I have never been one to keep 2 hands on the hilt at all times, I use it when advantageous or required (making sure a parry to power blow is met with the required force, or adding extra speed/power to an attack). This makes Shii-Cho a challenge for me.

Although my experience with a sword is not as extensive as Master Artorius, he approaches lightsaber with his martial arts background in mind.  You only need to use your lightsaber to block until the danger is removed.  Going further is a waste of time and energy.  One aspect of martial arts is to let your opponent expend all of their energy prior to you expending all of your energy.  I extrapolate that MAV is stating that lightsaber combat is no different. 

If your opponent strikes with a side thrust and you block with a side block, he/she now has to redirect the energy down to cut your arm and subsequently leaves his/her center line open for a redirected strike from you.

I watched the video again, I was somewhat tired last night. I thought those blocks were designed for the downward strike to the shoulder, buuuut... I'm dumb. I'll just go over here now *heads to corner and puts on dunce cap* /wrists

As it's a core principle, I'm not really surprised it appears in your videos - I just don't have the skill or knowledge to pick it out ;D
At any rate, I can't wait to see a new video with ripostes in it! I'm sure it will be very instructional.

I'm working on some ideas for just such a video!  It's probably going to demonstrate the technique with both fencing equipment and lightsabers, so you can see the transition I made.  As such it'll be mostly Makashi themed, although I may show the use in other Forms as well.

One thing I think I should mention, I am under the impression that riposte is just another word for counter attack. In the Chinese systems we obviously don't use that word, but the idea is the same. You never simply parry a strike and then stand there. It a fast moving game of anticipation, strategy and precision. Therefore, many many techniques can be considered a riposte. I tend to think of it more conceptually.

Here is a thread containing a light free sparring session with VorNach and myself. Lots of riposte happening here. Anytime one of us parries an attack and get a touch can be called a riposte. They are two very different styles put up against each other, so you can get a good idea of what an enormous body of knowledge this concept inhabits.

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6778.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=6778.0)

Good point Master Nonymous.  My hope was to specify that a riposte is an attack immediately following a parry, as it functions somewhat differently than launching an attack once the opponent has recovered.  It's more of a reflex action than anything, though you can plan a specific target in advance if you wish.

From a fencing point of view you're referring to an immediate threatening of target after an attack is thwarted, as opposed to advancing on the opponent.

It is clear, both from your video, Master Nonymous, and from all the other Masters' teachings, that the riposte is incredibly versatile - to call it a 'family of techniques' might be too narrow.

I had a question regarding Makashi, though, and how it is primarily a one-handed style. Do you use the shorter Ultrasabers or anything for the style? I have a 36" Aeon, and I find it a little heavy to use in one hand for any length of time. (Of course, maybe I just have weak wrists :P).

Finally, thank you very much for all the answers to my questions! You all take them very seriously and respond with courtesy far beyond anything that might be required.

No problem man, we love doing this kinda stuff.  I'm glad you're interested!

To address your question, I do tend to prefer more lightweight weapons with Makashi.  Personally I enjoy the shorter hilts (Initiate, Prophecy, etc) with 32" midgrade blades - this will give you a VERY lightweight weapon that allows you to use your fingers and wrist to a greater extent.  This gives you better precision and fine point control.  My Initiate V3 with a 32" blade is just perfect for such things.

Master Attoru: does the shorter hilt of the Initiate alter the saber's balance forward to an appreciable extent? I am pretty sure that Makashi calls for a very balanced weapon, unless I am quite wrong. I would think that the shorter hilt would have to be lighter... but maybe the (non-Heavy Grade) blades are light enough that it doesn't make a real difference.

That's actually a good question.  You have two things to consider - the weight distribution and the overall weight.  While shortening the hilt will move the point of balance further up, a reasonably sized midgrade blade is light enough to keep the saber very well balanced.  The smaller hilt decreases the overall weight of the saber, which makes for more quick handling.  In addition, less length gives you less interference in the small, single-handed circles of Makashi - I'll try to demonstrate what I mean in the video.

Does the shorter reach from the 32" blade cause problems in trying to land strikes on your opponent?

Well that depends.  Yes, you do lose a bit of reach with the 32" vs the 36", but you're gaining the ability to maneuver the blade deftly.  It all depends on your own personal preference - people with the arm strength to easily manipulate a full size blade often choose to do so in order to maintain that reach, whereas someone who finds such a blade unwieldy would possibly want to use the shorter blade to keep their speed.  It's all about finding that right blade length for you personally.

I, for instance, do like the 36" midgrades, but I also enjoy the 32" because it gives me the lightweight feel more like my foils.  This allows me to have more small, quick movements such as the disengages of fencing.

What kind of blade do you normally use?  Heavy grade or midgrade?  Because the heavy grades are great, but they are twice the weight of the midgrades.

I have a Mid Grade blade, 36"; but as I only have one saber, it doesn't mean it's my ultimate preference. To be honest, I just didn't want to spend the extra $10 for Heavy Grade :P

On the other hand, I don't have particularly strong wrist muscles, so the Mid Grade might be better for me; usually, I use my saber two-handed. Though, to be sure, the finesse and skill required by Makashi are very appealing to me (I just don't have them yet).

If at any point you manage to get a heavy grade blade, it's a good one to train with.  You train with one hand on that and when you switch back to the midgrade it'll feel like a feather.  Just keep practicing and you'll build up those specific muscles.

EDIT:  Removed my video from here, I didn't want it derailing the thread.  If you want to see it you can head over to my new thread, found here:

http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=8800.msg130125#msg13012 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=8800.msg130125#msg13012)

In the video in the thread with me and Vornach- he is using a 36 inch blade with a long hilt (over all around 45 in) and I am using a 32 inch with an initiate hilt.

While it feels different, you can easily make up for lost length in footwork and movement. The single handed grip also give you a much longer reach and allows you to stay further out of range than with two hands. All of this mitigates any advantage lost in the shortening of the blade.

I never make that much of glance. I believe it is a personal preference. But, The short hilt will give you range of motion enough to add speed and power. I Prefer my balance about four finger widths up from the guard (emitter in lightsaber parlance.)

I realized I've gotten this thread a little off topic, so perhaps we can get back on track.

At some point I'll see if I can do a basics video of my own, more catered to Makashi and whatnot, but in the meantime I highly recommend these.  These movements are the core of everything we do, and can be adapted to any Form of lightsaber combat.