Saber Forum

I wanted to see who favors what forms, and their explanations for why.  I will collect all the knowledge and grow in Power  ;)

I Myself am a Master of Form V Shien/Djem So, I like Darth Vader prefer it's straight forward pure offensive style.  Being 6" 2' and 220 lbs. I use my body's power and momentum to overwhelm my opponent.  I have found this to be particularly effective with a Staff, or Single Saber.  The staff when whirled around in a X shape creates a perfect impervious wall of both Pure Offense and Unbreakable Defense.  Granted, one has to have the upper body strength to do this, and I would add that attempting this with a Darth Maul Staff is not a very good idea (as I have discovered it is one of the heaviest hilts around).  The single blade is used most proficiently by utilizing Pure Brute Strength and Smashing Through your opponents defenses. (word of caution, if you employ this form in combat, please be weary that you do not crack the skull open of your opponent  :-\ , I used to run a group of people down here in the DFW area that dueled and I have seen this be a problem first hand.  This involved a not so careful trained swordsman and a teenage girls head  :-\ , I'll let you formulate the image on this one.)

So what do the rest of you favor?  Simplicity with Shii-Cho or has one of us dared to Master the Deadly Art of Juyo/Vaapad............ and I wonder if a Jedi dares utilize it, hmmmm very interesting we shall see..........

I am still trying to piece together the entire idea of the whole form thing. I know what they are in definition and I know how they are used and how they are meant to be used, as well as their practioners. But, me being me, I want more. I want more grounded ideas and practices and something to truly go on. I research the forms and their mentalities, but more importantly, I try to put them into practice with their own personalities. I never liked the whole each Jedi and Sith have a certain form thing. That is because when they were making the movies, that never came to mind. It is not until recently that they started to define the whole form thing. But, all in all, it is very interesting. I enjoy the concepts and I like seeing everyone interpretations of them. I like, and respect, how certain individuals (looking at you Caine!) try to give them shape and form. I think that is very key to people who dont know what they are doing or are confused on how to do things. YouTube is a good thing, but in the wrong hands, can be bad! But, personally I like to quick and confusing approach. Sometimes though. I think it is wise to defend when needed, but also look for oppurtunities to strike. Other times you need to out due your opponent in stamina. Others, well, you just need to do some quick varried attacks and go from there. So, it is always different. I dont like staying to one certain form. But, I would have to say I prefer more of a grounded Djem So, mixed in with some Soresu technique and top it off with Ataru/Juyo based attacks and speed.

I try to stress with my students as often as i can that not being struck ought to be their first priority.  between utilizing footwork and the distance between combatants, and training bladework into subconscious execution, Soresu is a strong governing philosophy. we train endurance, so if the fight does go long, we will not tire first...allowing us to exploit the cracks in the opponents' strategy that are sure to appear. that being said...
this is all balanced by a determination to use the last third of the blade, with quick cuts and thrusts, the most and to the best advantage. i endeavor to take the opponent a piece at a time, to end the conflict with intelligent and decisive strikes. Makashi is also a very strong influence on how i teach and fight.

I made up my own form that is an adaptation of forms 2,5,7,8 and 10. It works to be really fast and end the battle very easily. Unfortunately I cannot share it with you all because I am very proud of it and do not want it to be stolen by some thief and taken for their own.

I don't think I really have a form. I'm more like Luke, where my actual training is limited, so I use the few moves I actually know and put them together with whatever else I have to do to keep myself alive, so to speak.

Vaapad and Djem So for me.  I'm just large enough for the strength-intensive Djem So to work for me, and the speed and whirling ready stance of Vaapad give me an edge that allows for quick counters and adjustments.  Also, most people don't expect a light-sider to launch into a fight aggressively, which gives me quite an advantage.

Gotta love watching those Sith backpedal after they underestimate my fury.

I prefer ataru because I am 5 foot 8 but very lean and flexible. However I am probably more like form 8 sokan because I don't jump around as much and my form is a bit more open.

i use juyo/ataru since i'm 5'10 an 125 i try to really on my speed and never let bigger opponents to get an attack in and risk being over powered

I tend to favor Form II: Makashi.  Having fenced for years, this style comes naturally to me.  However, I also love putting some speed and force into my attacks, so I like to practice forms IV and V in sparring.

I would be very interested to face you in single combat Shardsbane, seeing as we both use a very similar style.  However make no mistake, if you think you see me backpedaling-I am merely trying to use your over confidence and fury to my advantage and lure you in for a flanking blow to your back  ;) . 

I am pleased at your fury however....... You should consider joining We Sith on the Dark Side of the Force......... Fury feeds off your emotion, and I thought that there was no emotion-that there was only peace???  Realize the Truth, that peace is a Lie, and that there is Only Passion, Join us on the Dark Side and Fulfill Your Destiny!!!!!!!!

(also, it should be noted that we (at the Sith Spa lol) have a wonderful grooming crew that will attend to your every hair need, you will never have to deal with your body spanning hair again lmao  ;D

 ::)Overconfidence is a sith weakness... For us, there is only peace. And the only lie is that the dark is more powerful than the light.

I hold to neither the code of the Jedi, nor the code of the Sith, Wraith.

"Pour out the overflowings of your anger, look on the proud and abase them.
Hide them in the dust together, bind their faces in the world below.
Around my blade is terror, dismay goes before me.
Rescue the weak and the needy, deliver them from the hands of the wicked.
Strengthen the frail hands, and make firm the feeble knees."

I would gladly face you in combat, Wraith.  Then we shall see who is truly stronger.

I am Truly in Awe Sir, rarely do you meet another with such intellect as this, (Darth Wraith Bows to Lord Shardsbane), I would welcome this test, and even if I were to fall to your blade good Sir, I know I would fall to a worthy and wise adversary. 

your precious lightside blinds you from the truth the dark is the only way and if you don't realize that then you are weak!

You are the weak one, if you cannot see that peace is the only rewarding way.

I think you can tell all you need to from Kaiden's name (which by the way is one of the coolest I have ever heard).

Kaiden - of fire
Shard - a broken splinter
Bane - Seems like I might recall him being an important Sith or something...  :)

I think at BEST he's with us Grey guys, maybe even destined to Sithdom.  I think you need to face your destiny and stop trying to escape your fate!  *said ironically while listening to the band Escape the Fate*

Not that im not open to the forms, i have not really researched them but have followed the way of the sword/saber for a long time, but i will have too define my technique sometime

Im all jar'kai.
My lightsaber technique is more derived from starkiller but the episode 2 dooku fight inspired it alot as well.
Assaj ventress is moving up there but I haven't watched the clone wars that much and I saw an episode where she swung both sabers to the right and left her whole left side open and got a little irked.

2 lightsabers are so much better than 1 if you know how to use them.

This is a good assumption, and one I share, I believe that he shall one day be Lord Shardsbane  ;) He shall see the Truth of the Force in time, and join us in the ways of Passion and Darkness, it is only a Matter of Time  ;D

I have forseen that He shall Become a Powerful Sith Indeed

Bane - A person or thing that causes misery and suffering,
        - A deadly poison
        - Death, destruction, ruin.

However, I don't know what I would change my name to.  I mean, what's better than "Fiery splinter of doom"?

Nothing.  Nothing at all.  Like I said, that is the coolest sith/jedi name I've seen (IMHO of course).   8)

Hmm, give me a little bit of time, and I will see what I can whip up for you in the way of a new Sith Mantel  ;)  I pride myself with coming up with Sith Names   ;D

I really should pick a name and PM a mod.  My gamertag just isn't cutting it here...  :-\

Oh, and sorry for the hijack.

SO... How about them Saber Forms?  ;D

I utilize Form V, but would love to take up Form II.

Form II is pretty excellent.  Form V is nice too though!  I love utilizing them both, alternating between the powerful strikes of Form V and the precise movements of Form II.  I especially like how Form V is aggressive but not 100%, part of it still relies on maintaining a strong defense (as it arose from Form III) while creating openings to counterattack.

Indeed, I threw my friend off guard when switching forms mid-swing. He was so used to me being predictable, but not anymore. Unfortunately I don't have the proper knowledge and training to begin perfecting and/or mastering a form.

I myself prefer Soresu.  Being 5'8" and 140lbs I combine Form III with aikido skills and kicks from taekwondo (3rd dan, started training in 1992).  I have also learned and incorporated Form VII specifically Vaapad into my training.  Master Nero Attoru and attest to my proficiency as a bladesman.  I spent about 5 years in serious study of kendo (sport), iaido and kenjutsu (art).

hm... it seems i'm kinda late into the discussion... well anyhoo, i prefer form III 90% of the time, and form V when the opponent's guard is temporarily down.

Hmmmm, Form III's Impenetrable Defense, Combined With Form VII's Lightning Deadly Offense.......... I will not like look forward to facing you on the battle field, for my specialties lye in my knowledge in the Dark Side of the Force..... but in this case, I'm not sure it would matter lol ;)

Indeed, he is quite the accomplished duelist.  Very unpredictable too.  I keep my distance typically, using my Makashi bladework to keep him at bay.  We should make a video in fact, throw it up here on the forums!

And we will just as soon as we get together and the ladies agree to run the cameras!

I Very Much Look Forward To Seeing This.........  ;D  Who Knows You Guys Might Even Rival "Ryan VS. Dorkman"  ;)

I'd have to choose several....
Ataru (something my bro and I are working on.)
Juyo (my preferred style. Still working it into routines.)
Jar-Kai (still in the practice stages.)
 I'm also a fan of the sweeping swings of Shii-Cho.

I know from my steel training that I don't like the two handed swings that typically are found in the strength based forms, V and VII.  My arms tend to bind on themselves; plus I'm a pretty big guy, 6' 1" 240 pounds, so strength comes naturally to me one handed.

I also know I like the speed and utility of the two equal bladed style of form VI.  Some of the stuff that i've pulled off on this against the "bruiser" opponents has left them scratching their heads.  There is also the intimidation factor when someone is coming in at you with a blur of blades in front of them.

Finally I do like the Trakata, and actually employ a similar technique with a steel sword.  I'll come in with a strong, dedicated, and telegraphed hit.  However, instead of connecting hard on the blade I'll slide off their guard and then either thrust or move on to another strike while they have exposed themselves guarding a strike that never fully connected. 

Got a bit off topic there, but then I enjoy talking shop.

Sounds like some pretty good tactics.  I myself find it difficult to make those wide two handed swings as well - I think it may be because fencing drills the whole "keep your actions small" idea into you.  Instead, I tend to use the controlled fencing style Makashi while occasionally using some forceful blows, since I also am able to put some force behind one handed attacks.

When I do use pure Form V, I tend to use two hands but still keep that "small, controlled movements" idea.  Instead of wide powerful cuts, I have controlled forceful attacks along with an aggressive defense.  That's just my personal usage of Form V.

Oh, and I also tend to use some Shien - or at least the reverse grip (Starkiller) form of it.  Awkward at first, but actually pretty useful once you get the hang of it.  In fact, when I dual wield with my twin Dark Standard Issues I tend to hold one reverse grip and one normal, it's very effective in keeping the blades from getting tangled and moving smoothly from offense to defense or vice versa.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many form V practitioners tend to over-emphasize the width of their strikes.  Honestly you can keep a controlled cut and still have it powerful and very effective.  You don't need to move the blade any further than the width of your opponent.

I've never had much trouble with the blades getting in each others way with Florentine, but I tend to have pretty good 3D perception.   A reverse grip does give you a good defense though.  You sacrifice the reach of regular grip for a good quick guard.  Really with reverse all you have to do is place the blade parallel to the body and switch sides to inter pose it between you and your opponents blade.  Also the sweeping motion created by this movement is great for redirecting thrusts.


My training considers people to be in close to plate armor.  Truly, the sword needs to move in atleast 90 degrees to get good power behind it for that kind of opponent.  Otherwise, yes you can still get some good power out of lesser angles.  Also my problem come more at the end of a swing than the begining.  Thats where my wrists tend to lock with each other.

Are you training a specific style or system like Kendo?  If it is indeed a Japanese system, check that your reverse hand (the hone closer to the end of the hilt) isn't staying stationary as you cut, put that your hands create a push-pull effect (reverse hand should be pulling).

I'm training in a medieval european (http://www.emaaknights.com) style.  Even with a hand width between my hands the blade ends up about 20 degrees from my oppents center at the apex of the swing, that's whith out turning my hips. 

But we digress.  So how bout them saber forms.

I'm more like a gladiator style of fighting. Not sure you could put that into a form or not.

@Enzayer:  Yeah I figured from your description you were a medieval european style.  Longsword?  Regardless, that makes sense with the wide swings, you do get more power.  I was just saying that I like that controlled power you get when you use strong but small cuts.  To each his own though, that's what makes saber fighting so interesting!

@Raze:  You just made me picture Russell Crowe with lightsabers... which would be supremely badass lol.  Do you use shorter blades to simulate the Gladius or do you just mean that you use improvisation in your fights?

Right now I'm using regular blades, however my next order is going to be an Initiate(they're the same size as a Gladius) which will be my main weapon. And yes, I improvise A LOT.

I primarily use a mix of Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, and Shien. I guess you could call it "Maksoratien!" I probably use Ataru the most though.

Sounds a little like Form VI.  Which parts of the forms to you utilize?

It' about 35% Ataru, 35% Soresu, 20% Makashi and 10% Shien. The Ataru is because I mostly dodge attacks instead of blocking, and I move around a lot. Soresu because, even though I mostly dodge, I do block a lot also. I also like to study how my opponent fights. Makashi because I like to occasionally use a one-handed grip and I like to do quick jabs and attacks. Shien is mostly because I like to use a reverse-grip. Not sure if that counts but it does to me! Besides, If I were a Jedi I would rather learn all of the forms (or a great range) instead of just Niman. Niman seems kind of like a "cop out" to me.

Oh and one more thing: "Maksoratien" is so much more fun to say than "Niman."  ;)

Well RLYHYPERGUY, it seems you invented your own form.

Shall we start calling you "Master of Maksoratien?" :D

Wow that is an interesting combination!  I would love to see it in action!

Haha it's not really a "form." It's more of a mindset actually, kind of how I naturally fight. And yes you may call me "Master of Maksoratien." In fact I would love you too  :P

Juyo/Makashi mix up, I kind of pulled from fighting I liked in the Star Wars films, real world martial arts techniques I know, assessed my personality traits and what form really fits me the most, and then I blended them with fighting styles I liked from other movies... I.E Blade, and Achilles from the movie Troy, ect. etc.

I feel like maybe we should consider posting videos to demonstrate our styles - maybe on a new thread under Videos.  It seems like we all have unique and cool mixes of abilities, and it would be awesome to see and compare them all!

Agreed!  Get your butt home so we can do just that!

I personally use three forms of light saber combat. My preferred form is soresu. But i may transfer to either ataru or shien. I find these forms work to my advantage seeing as im made a a smaller stature.

Hello, I'm new here. My saber is in the mail. I am part of a 6 man fight choreography team called Cry Havoc in Austin TX. I have studied (meaning read) on all the major form of lightsaber combat. After figuring out which actual martial arts each form is logically linked to, the team and I came to the conclusion that form 7 was what I favor. A lot had to do with emotion and extroverted personality traits. I don't think any form is better than the other though.

We did a test run of teaching a small class the 7 main forms and were able to give each form a hyper distinctive look, based on studying the text and movies. Since each form is different, we even had different warm ups for each group. Some thought form 3 was kinda boring because it's mostly defensive, but once they saw a teacher put it to use, a smile came over their face. It was SO MUCH FUN!!!!

I also use ataru because I'm shorter its easy for me too twist and dodge around my opponent.

I use a lot of Form II, being 6'0'' and only 135lbs I've found speed usually wins me the battles, the precision of Makashi seems to accomplish this best for me. I also completely agree with the whole footwork deal, mixing up the retreat/advance pattern is a great way to confuse your opponent and keep them off guard, also if your making sure you aren't getting flanked in team duels then you can usually hold off two people. As effective as i've found Makashi to be I'm not at all opposed to using some stronger two handed strikes at the right moments either, i'm not sure if that alone falls under Form V, but at the right time it's definitely a good tool to wear down opponents, or advance an attack.

When I get a copy of the forms disk, whenever it is available and review it I will let you know.  I took fencing in college for two terms for exercise purposes  and was even asked to join the team but never did.  Later while in the Air Force I took TKD and got close to red belt but had to quit due to a change of location, and never resumed training.   Oh, and Marksman with M-16 and shotgun, but could only get close with a grenade (haha).  Well, it was sort of on topic.

My style? You can call it the "art of fighting without fighting."  ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow#)

All respect to Bruce Lee!  "Styles tend to not only separate men - because they have their own doctrines and then the doctrine became the gospel truth that you cannot change. But if you do not have a style, if you just say: Well, here I am as a human being, how can I express myself totally and completely? Now, that way you won't create a style, because style is a crystallization."

This actually brings up a great point, Master Caine that can bump this thread into a new life cycle.  There are 7 forms of Lightsaber combat (which Master Caine has developed in to 7 styles of LED Lightsaber combat.  Check out his and Master Novastar's work here: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=1010.0 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=1010.0)

These styles are only the beginning!  Many people on the forum have stated that they use a personalized combination of the 7 classic styles and many people believe they have created their own style.  This is important to all Lightsaber enthusiasts and to martial artists as well.  When you are sparring with whomever you spar with, you start by emulating the style you have learned.  Eventually you grow and develop your own way of fighting.  This is the self expression that Bruce Lee refers to!  People will recognize you from a distance simply by how you are moving while you fight.

That being said, new members:  Let us know what you use or what you want to use!  There are lots of experienced Lightsaber Enthusiasts on the forum and we are all willing and wanting to help you grow in your experiences!

MAV

all members...new and old. always the student mind.:)

That is the quote of the week!  ;)

An excellent example of Form 0.   You should be the Battlemaster.

thanx Master Caine...if only everyone who trained with me espoused the student mind at all times...:)

I use Makashi!

It seems as if I came on this late, but, I feel like answering the question.

I'm 5'9 and I weigh 145 pounds, and that is all muscle. Form VII comes very naturally for me due to it's aggressive style. While I do not have the weight and height of a Darth Malgus to make extremely crushing blows, I'm a lot stronger than one would think. I'm naturally very fast as well. So, the natural speed I have mixed with the nice amount of strength I can force upon one with my blade, thrown into Form VII, sums up what I do. I'm ALL attack in a fast and strong brute force. And the cherry on top of it all, is the fact that I actually do fight with emotion. When my emotion kicks in in a fight, my opponent falls quickly. I'm not bragging in anyway, this actually has happened every time. It's almost like a burst of unnatural strength comes upon me. I love it!

But, even though Form VII comes naturally, I feel like none of the forms can quite put into existence exactly what I want to do. So, I generally try to rely on instinct in a duel, over the technique of the form. Sometimes depending on the opponent, I will rely on the forum, but lately, I've been trying to do otherwise. I may try to come up with my own form.

Very interesting!  That does indeed sound like a Form VII usage... you sound like you have some swordsmanship experience, have you had training?  I'm always interested to see what types of martial arts or combat training people have, and how it corresponds to their form.  For instance, I have a lot of experience in fencing so Form II comes naturally to me.  My own interpretation of the form uses precise, single handed attacks along with superior footwork and distance to defeat the enemy.

Haha, well, no, no formal training. But for years as a kid I fought my friends, and I still duel today. We fought with solid and straight sticks, not any of stupid foam swords kids use today, lol. We would come home with cuts on our heads, bruises, gashes, ect.... While I don't recommend head swings at all, that is what we did, lol. When I was a kid, I had that same very aggressive style of fighting. They called me Darth Vader for it. I liked the Jedi at the time, but, I kinda got used to being called Darth Vader, and I grew to like it. That is when I started to fall to the Darkside. lol

I know that if I had formal training (which I would LOVE to have, and may get some day), I would excel very fast. I would like to say it's natural, but I don't know. I hardly ever lose if that counts for being a natural? But I have yet to duel somebody with formal training. When it comes to real swords, I like to use two handed swords (they are all attack as well). I have a replica Sir William Wallace sword. It is heavy, and LONG. They suit my style.

So, overall, no training. But from what it seems, I'm good at it. (I'm not bragging, just trying to answer your question) :)

I prefer a mix of Soresu and Makashi.  It makes for a beautiful and elegant form of offense and defense in perfect refinement.  It works well with my size also, only bein 5'9" and 120 pounds I need grace and finesse over brute force.

SO when I dual wield I would say,

Jar'Kai obviously, mixed with Ataru and Vapaad with some defensive Soresu thrown in.

Single saber I'd say,

Niman, really like to just mix it up, some Kendo and Longsword, Chinese straight sword and Fencing.

Yeah it seems like with the potential speed you have with your Initiates, styles like Ataru or Vaapad would fit.  Very cool.

@Yega:  You really should get some formal training, you can take that natural talent you have and add some real technique... I have always wanted to learn something other than fencing, just to mix it up.  The only other experience I have is some martial arts training from Artorius (we've been friends for literally decades, so it goes without saying that I'd pick up a few things).  That said, fencing is a great place to start - I know it seems like it doesn't translate into reality well, but I assure you it does.  Concepts like distance, timing, parries, and the general flow of momentum in combat I feel are common to all forms of swordsmanship, and are VERY critical in fencing as well.  I actually coach fencing at the college where I went to school, and I absolutely love it.

I posted earlier, but did not fully know the form I was practicing.  I'm am more geared towards Shien and Djem So, form four of the jedi combat structure.  It gives me the finesse and grace I need without sacrificing too much of what physical strength and endurance I have.  As said before, being 120 pounds at 5'9" leaves me at a great disadvantage against many opponents.  Thus my style is defensive with a controlled offense.

Yeah, I would love to. Those are all things I need to learn, lol. I'm almost barbaric in my style of fighting, which I do not think is a bad thing. That style worked for many armies anyways, lol. But learning how to master the art of moving the blade in a effective and precision like manner would be great. I'm sure your experience helps with much of that. It is actually really cool that you like Form II. Most people I know say they use Form VII, and it now seems overused because it's the "Most Dangerous". So I kinda wish that there was another form that came naturally for me because of that. Form V would be the next closest to being natural for me. I personally think that the most dangerous lightsaber Form, is the one that best suits you.

The way I tend to break down the forms is by considering each one to have a specific "forte".  You have Djem So, where the focus is domination, and Makashi where the focus is control and manipulation.  Vaapad and Juyo (both variants of Form VII) have a similar focus - using aggressive feelings to fuel you.  Vaapad does it while maintaining a cool head, while Juyo pretty much lets you give in completely.  So while Form VII is famous for its unpredictable fast attacks, the true art of it is on the inside, the utilization of emotions.  If you're only brutish in a physical sense, then maybe you would fit another form - you have aggressive ones like Djem So and Ataru that could work for you as well.  Djem So uses overwhelming strength, while Ataru uses blinding speed and lots of movement.  Just something to keep in mind.

When i took martial arts i watched various techniques and katas that more experienced students got to train with using the bo, my only experience with weapons training in martial arts was a few grapple, disarming and offensive tactics with the tanto. but i remained very observant with how attacks and defenses were so fluent with the bo, you block and your immediately set up for a quick and unexpected counter, how many more areas the staff covers making it so easy to defend against attacks. it was very intriguing to the point where after i moved i started practicing on my own with bamboo poles and eventually i became very efficient, after the many blunders trying to work out how not to hit yourself on the head or in the unmentionables :o but nevertheless, the spins worked themselves out and i learned control and how to not hit myself no matter the situation(sounds lame but its harder than it looks, its just the basics:P) eventually it became my preferred weapon of choice. then ultrasabers came along hehe.. and well.. the staff is sill my best/ favorite in such matters!

so whatever a staff is considerred, juyo? or jar kai?.. <--that or jar kai is with two sabers..

please forgive me..i forget:P just now bothering to learn the names of all the jedi styles,  but yeahXP

Dual Wielding is jar kai, while the staff is just a different weapon, I think that you just adopt from whichever form you prefer.

Cause Maul uses Juyo, which is a very aggressive style.



On a side not Mj just bought me Escrima sticks for Christmas. I love jar'kai. ;D

Jar'kai Ataru is nearly impossible to defend against, although I find that a second blade can get in the way of flips  ::)

I use a combination of form II (Makashi) and form V (Djem So) My fighting style comes from me working with foil, saber, and longsword. (Form II being more typical of foil, and form V more typical of saber and longsword) I use precise, quick thrusts and slashes, but I also use more powerful slashes and cuts typical of longsword and saber.

Very nice... sounds very much like my own style!  10 years of fencing gives my technique a natural Makashi basis, while I enjoy Djem So for its ability to overpower an opponent, sometimes disabling them.  I mostly use it to throw my opponent off really, so I can utilize my Makashi strikes to finish the job.

I would suspect that you would get a different answer depending on what stage of life, level of activity/training, and training options were available...from the same player (jedi).

I am at the top of the hill, able to look back down at the road I have climbed and look forward at the road that lays ahead.

At 46 I have done bunches and bunches and saw even more.

Where as a young wide eyed mouthy 18yr old US Marine...invulnerable, hell in boots, and ready to destroy any and all...I would have favored a more aggressive and straight forward approach...many hard lessons learned in judo taught me that this is not always the best way.

Later when I was sure that I had learned enough to teach others, my one punch one kill techniques were perfect...they were not...and I was not ready to teach; which is when I took advice from my testing judge from Japan "why do you want the black belt, you know it is just a color right?" "maybe this is not your path"...in old school karate, black belts were instructors...I was not ready...for a style I would have been focused on short bursts of speed and power, disregarding defense.

When I started competing on a serious level in judo I found a niche...I could not make up for the decades of judoka only experience I was facing so I started focusing on sacrifice moves which everyone learns and then quickly bypasses because they are difficult, they can put you in a bad position, and require a full commitment...but most judo players do not use or defend against them so I had found an advantage...so surprise and strategy were my favored tools...which should have been in my tool box all along as I was a nationally rated chess player at an early age...this is when I started playing the shadow game...defensive position with aggressive advancing that causes the opponent to be off centered because they expect an attack and it does not come, they attack and I aggressively defend, wait, catch them and tie them up...so the jedi style would be more Soresu.

So now my approach is more shadow and draw in, wait, faint, shadow...break the pattern and cause a break in concentration...then end it.

 

hmmm...yes...anything done hmm can be undone...uhm hehehehe...yes...

I surely identify with the brash young Marine, for I was he as well. Corporal Jammo was Form V, hell on wheels, but nowadays I like to fool someone. Tempo set ups, one hand to two hand changes and vice versa, channeling an opponent into chasing phony objectives... I'm kind of a jerk, really, but that's the difference between my old ass at 33 and that skinny 20 something kid. I'd sum up my style as patience, using form switches and mind games to find that soft spot and hit it. My footwork is very clean, by all accounts, and I've actually gotten ahead of a guy with faster hands than me through application of my grey mush to the point that he thought I was holding back at first. As to the classic forms, I'd say I use a bit of 2,4,5, and 6, but I find the various styles to be critical only in how and when you use them and against whom. They're all tools and if you try to pound a nail with a screwdriver, its likely not going to work.

Are you referring to my remark about the flips or my opinion on the difficulty of defending against a dual-wielding blur? Either way, truer words hast not been spoken  ;)

My best Yoda for anything being unstoppable  :)

(http://hschlent.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/90932429_3f1c2db2a9.jpg)

haha! well then probably juyo, my spins are more aggressive and not very defense oriented at all,
blocks i often shake off the opponents attack and turn into my own attack, i swing wide and have a very large safety cirlce, as i have found for the sake of my hands and fingers, its best to be on the offensive haha!

Yes, Makashi also comes naturaly to me. (fencing) I have been trained in longsword and saber aswell. So Djem So is also easy for me.
Normally, I use both forms equally. But, I change my fighting style depending on the person. If I'm bigger than the other person, I will use Djem So to overpower them. If I'm fighting someone larger than me, I would use Makashi. If the person's fighting style is form III (Soresu) I keep changing styles.

The more I practice, the more I realize that the natural lightsaber form for me is a mix between Form VII and Form V. Strength, and speed, in an all out attack, not letting any time for the attack of the opponent (obviously, they will always throw in an attack every now and then, but I try to keep them on a defense heading backwards.)

I do find it interesting that so many describe their technique as 2, 4, 6, and some of 7 but mostly 3 and 5   ::)

I am not throwing stones, I just find this a bit chuckle worthy.

It may be just me, my martial arts experience is extensive but more so focused on closing, clinching, and smothering/choking out/or locking a joint...I do have some classic weapons training with eskrima and kendo...knife fighting with color marking practice blades...and some fencing, mostly épée...but I do know that fighting styles rarely can be summed up in one sentence.

So light saber style Juyo is not a move or two it is a theme of behavior...a direction of training and application.

It is doubtful that a Juyo would shift into a Makashi move and then into Ataru technique.

That is why I mentioned my answer would be different depending on when you asked me in my life.

A Juyo can have defensive, offensive, and special techniques that mirror the other styles but is still distinctly Juyo because of intent and application.

Just because one knows all the styles, like GM Yoda, you still favor one style or another.

I might be looking at this too much or in the wrong light but it is like asking what sort of pizza do you like?

"well I like a pepperoni and cheese for one bite, then two bites of pesto and basil, then a nibble of sausage and peppers, then back to a bite of pepperoni, then a bite of etc. etc."

That would be one crazy looking pizza.

Now all of those things could be on the pizza...the works or your works...but it does not magically become one or the other with each slice or bite.  An everything pizza is an everything pizza.  A Hawaiian is a Hawaiian.  A pepperoni is a pepperoni.

I liked cheese as a kid.

I liked pepperoni and cheese as a youth.

I like Hawaiian with hot peppers and cheese as an adult.

I could eat a cheese or a pepperoni, but I prefer a spicy Hawaiian pizza.

After three bites of my Hawaiian I do not say ahaha pepperoni!

*****

This is again not a dig on anyone, just an observation.

Every style is much more complex then "prefers straight forward attack" or "mostly used for defense".  A style is a blend of attack, defense, and special techniques.

It is ok to say one or the other.  They are all primarily different, that is why the different names.

Honor the name, honor the style, choose one...it is ok...Yoda said so, I asked him and he said so  :)

I would be interested to see how my form compares to yours. I think the only differences would be that you use strength and speed, whereas I only use speed, and the fact that I am in the air much of the time, although those differences are to be expected (V/VII versus IV). And maybe that you try to keep your opponent heading backwards, whereas I try to knock them over backwards  ::)

Maybe we can see in a video? Record it or something? I know I have at least on friend who is not chicken when it comes to saber dueling (he actually enjoys it! Though he does not care for SW, lol).

I would be interested to see your style. I like the idea of knocking them over. I may try that out. While being in the air inst my thing, if it is effective, Ill do it if it gets the job done.

@Relmeob - interesting ideas, I think I see what you're getting at.  This is part of the reason Artorius and I tend to disregard Form VI when we talk about lightsaber combat:  mixing these different philosophies in such a way compromises technique, and just plain old doesn't make sense.  You can't say you "use a Shii-Cho cut followed by an Ataru flip and a Makashi stab" because those ideas don't flow.

That said, it isn't impossible to use multiple styles.  I think many people who say they do are just attempting to classify their own unique way of fighting.  Bruce Lee always said that trying to stick to a specific style limits you, prevents you from expressing yourself totally and completely.  This is something Master Artorius and I have discussed a good amount.

Yeah, I shift "styles" in a tactical manner. Show somebody one thing and mutate into something else. The "switch" is a matter of perception, I suppose...

Anyone who has read the book version of Episode III RotS knows exactly what Jammo means.  Anakin and Obi-Wan use that exact concept in a tactical manner against Dooku.  Excellent phrasing.

Another thing to add is that the Forms of combat (with the possible exception of Shii-Cho) are more like "philosophies" or "mindsets." Any kind of physical combat training is just learning how to implement that specific mindset that you've been taught. Or at least that's how I think of it.

An excellent point.  Nero and I don't teach the forms any more.  We teach the philosophies and let our apprentices discover the forms for themselves.

Beautiful.

Yes yes and yes...

Ahhh citing Bruce Lee are we?

"Learn all you can and use what you want"

The thing is, specifically with Bruce, that he was a freak of nature and of nurture.  He was what he was because he was who he was.

I studied Jeet Kune Do and I found that there was a baseline issue with the idea of it all...Jeet Kune Do is the philosophy of his process, of what worked for him.  The very idea that this particular instructor was going to teach Bruce's Jeet Kune Do...in the end I found it offensive.

I found another JKD instructor while I was stationed in NY city, he was bringing in different style instructors each month...this made sense to me and I am sure would have made Bruce quite happy.

I had a chance to study a Limalama technique called Uma Ma Kapi or Kaupi...a Polynesian hard style...all the practitioners were enormous Samoans...so the idea of tripping, trapping, and locking up these walking refrigerators was daunting to say the least.  But I picked up enough to apply the idea of the technique for my frame and size, which I found when dealing with normal sized humans was useful...not like the way they used it, but I took what they offered in the way I could use it.

That is Jeet Kune Do.  That is my Jeet Kune Do.  You have yours and I have mine.

*****

So I completely agree that one style and another style is what would seem to be a preferred style...it makes sense to me to a degree.

This is a forum for appreciating a science fiction weapon and the martial science of the same in a Universe based upon fantasy...so there should be no rules as it is fantasy.

But as we are practicing the practical application of using these weapons and talking about the practical use of the same, I offer that we consider the picture at a face value.

An aggressive fencer will not in mid stride shift into a passive parry position, even if facing an obstacle like a twisted ankle, impact numbed wrist, etc.

Now the style could easily be a blend...with vastly experienced players exhibiting a unique ebb and flow not found in any one style...but the cut and dry aspects are what they are.

So maybe consider noting a style that best describes your base and if it is not enough then use terms to further define your base rather than layer more bases.

*****

Jar'Kai is the two blade style...does that mean anyone using two blades is a Jar'Kai practitioner?

For example my real world training and experience brings me to answer "which lightsaber for from do I favor" (if I had a real light saber and I were a jedi...)

Soresu...as I am mostly a defensive reactionary fighter...even in chess I play to my opponent's ability and if he is better than I work through it, looking for an opening, then drawing them in, pulling them out of their game plan.  I might use two sabers.  I might use a naginata style saber with a blade length or longer hilt.  That would not change my base.  Even if I fell back onto my aggressive beginnings, if I lashed out with a flurry and straight forward attack, ignoring defense...this would not alter my base.

So not Soresu, Jar'Kai, Ataru, and Juyo...even if elements of these exist within my Jeet Kune Do of Lightsaber style.

Hope I do not come off as a snob or a know it all...I am not either.  I have dealt with Star Trek fans my whole life and the every fan portraying a Captain or an Admiral get old quick.  So to does the everything in one uber powerful jedi who is also a sith but is mostly a grey jedi pirate rogue bounty hunter cyborg hybrid of 8 near human species who uses a pair of rainbow saber staff that alternate between all the colors and can shoot force lighting out his butt.

It may be that I am 46, but I suspect not.

Imagine being able to be a jedi or sith if you must, but let us consider a jedi...just a run of the mill guy in the background...not a front line hero...not a venerable master...just a jedi.  How cool would that be?  Cool beyond measure.  No need to be everything IMO.  

So off topic...sorry.

Hope you can find something useful or see where I was going with all this...if not then I am sorry for wasting your time.

Have a great remaining weekend all!

Wow Relmeob... quite a post there!  Took me a while to read through it... but I appreciate your input.

If I understand your point correctly, then I believe you and I agree on a great deal here.  I believe some people try to emulate styles based on characters they like - Mace Windu fans try to pretend they're Vaapad, Anakin fans insist they use Djem So, and so forth.  This is one reason people try to say they utilize "Makashi with some Soresu and a bit of Ataru" or whatever.  I agree with you in that this kind of description makes basically no sense.

I believe what Artorius and I were trying to say (if I may presume that he and I are in agreement here) is that everyone has one specific way of fighting that is unique to them.  Maybe it's aggressive, maybe it's passive, maybe it's a mix.  It is the way they choose to enter combat, and I know this happens because I see it as a coach.  I know my fencers have different ways to behave in their bouts - one may be an aggressive powerhouse while another might be more of a patient thinker. 

To me this can be described by "what you do when the crap hits the fan."  When somebody is coming at you with a sword, and the adrenaline kicks in, I am not gonna be using Djem So tactics or Ataru twirls or Shii-Cho cuts.  I'm gonna break into my style, which I just so happen to correlate with Makashi for simplicity.  I have a one handed style which utilizes an active defense and plenty of footwork - once again this is due to my fencing background.  In fencing for instance I tend to wait for an opening and use an attack - some would call this a Soresu idea but considering how I execute it with a lightsaber I tend to call it Makashi.  In this way your thoughts about Jeet Kune Do come into play - my Makashi is not the same as your Makashi, or somebody else's.  It's my own, which is what makes it so effective and unpredictable.

Nail + Head

Right on Brother!

One style...maybe two at an extreme...and this would most likely be one way on  attack and another with defense.

Closest we have to reflect on would be MMA mixed martial arts.

Look at those top fighters...some just excel in one aspect be in striking, grappling, wrestling, etc. but all are trained in many styles.

When you are in the thick of it...you get caught...you will react one way or another.  A whole book of options does not present itself.  A wrestler will drop and shoot for a take down...the boxer will shift on the heel and try to punch through...etc. etc.

I have enough judo to tell you that it is my base.  I have taken dozens of styles...some for 6 months and others for years...but judo is the one that best fit.  Does that mean I don't kick or punch...hardly.  My MT shift kick is nasty and I have a decent uppercut...but when it comes down to it, I will tie you up and choke you out or test one of your joints.

I have been flash knocked out in matches...gone...dumped on my head and lost 3-5 seconds...and yet I grabbed what was close, drew it in, trapped it, dug in, and waited til it passed...my judo training took over.

My base.

I can shoot.  Guns and bows.

I can use blades.

But mostly I have the will and desire to follow through with my intended action...saying one will do something if a far cry from doing it.  Meaning it is one thing to say you will punch somebody in the face, it is quite another to do it...especially if you just got your nose broken.

*****

The Jar'Kai style for example.  Two sabers.  Within reason, all the special techniques and most of the offense/defense will rely on two sabers.  Lose a saber and reduce the style...period.

If this sounds icky then another style might be a better fit?

It is one thing to use two sabers, and another entirely different thing to only use two sabers...a Jar'Kai gains strength and unique ability because of this focus...can they use one saber, well sure...could they use the special abilities of Jar'Kai with one saber, most likely not...hard to do the dual whirlwind with one saber.

The idea of switching styles with each opponent is interesting...sounds like making wishes to me.

A base of Soresu for example

I am dealing with Juki the sith...he has a darkness about him that sucks in light...so I fight this vile sith and I would use Soresu...I might try to shake him with some unexpected move but my style would remain the same.

Another time I face Ki Uth, another sith...he is super fast and agile...yep, I use Soresu.

We are what we are and we will react how we train.

The idea of completely switching styles to match the opponent just baffles me...again like making wishes.

He is a running super fast...me too!

He is a strong fighter with aggressive techniques...me too!

He is a defensive player with incredible parries...me too!

Or that the counter to every move is in your pocket...just wow.

I have been there...I thought I knew enough to stop anyone..."ever punched a 6'10" 475lb Samoan?"...I have...and he did not fall down...he did not even flinch...he said "ouch" and hit me with a fist the size of a small turkey...and I did fall down.

I have been there...I outweighed him by 100lbs, he was 59 and I was 29...he wrapped me up and forced me to tap every night I trained for the next 3 yrs.

And more.

I had all these abilities and skills but in the end I was better at some things than at others...that is how people are.

Fast and acrobatic...straight forward and strong...side stepping and quick...spinning...dual weapons...etc.

One is the primary fit...the main dish...the rest are side dishes to compliment the main.

Being in the air is effective, but not efficient energy wise. But it is how I knock them over - attacking from above, and using my legs and saber as weapons in one massive, swarm-like attack. It puts them off balance in the first place since it is coming at their faces, and so quickly, then moving forward at the same time can knock them over.

Is this in a video game?

It would seem somewhat inefficient in terms of energy, I always kinda figured Ataru had to be adapted to "real life" considering it relies on Force-enhanced movements to allow for the flips and various maneuvers.  My own interpretation sticks to the two dimensional for the most part, using a lot of footwork to strike at the enemy with great speed from different angles.

That said, if you pull off an acrobatic ataru that's great!  I would be interested to see how it's implemented, although I'm probably too big and heavy to really pull it off lol.

I know for a fact my 6 foot 220lbs is for sure to heavy to pull it off. :)

Real world Ataru, Wushu perhaps?

http://funnyjapanesepranks.com/learn-martial-arts-art/wushu-wu-shu/wushu-masters-china-chinese-martial-art-video/ (http://funnyjapanesepranks.com/learn-martial-arts-art/wushu-wu-shu/wushu-masters-china-chinese-martial-art-video/)

Which is a bit easier if you are 5' and 100lbs  :)

No - the speed is only relative to real-life attacks, nothing like Yoda  ;D  And nice signature, by the way  :D

i dont really have form but i basically hold it Backwards and Spin it to Forward. its a wweird fighting stance and there are openings. but how bad would it be if i were to successfully grab the others saber in battle?

Your fingers would fall off at the contact point?

Don't bring logic into this  ;) I don't think we quite understand what you mean, Halvala. Unless you have hands of phrik ;D

Maybe he does the Satele Shan force enhanced saber grab?

(http://images.wikia.com/swtor/nl/images/a/a7/Satele_Shan_absorbeerd_Darth_Malgus_zijn_lightsaber.png)

That seems of the utmost likelihood ;)

Grabbing a lightsaber!  Insane...insanely cool!

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FOj0dDyraGg/TC8dWlqP4pI/AAAAAAAAAlI/qH9p9DDB-Ms/s1600/DaddyDayCare_3.jpg)

Outwardly, I appear to use Form IV, but if forms are just philosophies, I use Form VII.

I favor Makashi and Soresu. Something about the precise, rapid succession of surgical strikes and impenetrable defensive reinforcement just turn my head.

My studies of Sun Tzu (The Art of War) have definitely tweaked my way of looking at things. Attacking assigns form, that form expresses openings and weaknesses which can be exploited, and those weaknesses can be transformed into victory. This is why I feel that defensive forms are superior.

Every move has a countermove, and every action brings change to the configuration of events surrounding us. In a way, the Force is a very relevant analogy for the Sun Tzu. Even as much as an exhaling breath will displace the molecules of air around us. Do we really believe those changes stay local?

When I am involved in a stressful situation (not necessarily combat, but it applies) I look for these currents and displacements, then exploit them. I've been able to use the situation against itself more times than I can count. Calling Soresu "the eye of the storm" is just about as accurate as it can be. It's surreal.

I'm on a rabbit trail now. Soresu, primarily, with a strong flavoring of Makashi. It's Force-enhanced Rope-A-Dope. ^_^

(http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy253/lemon095/th_Video0014.jpg) (http://s797.photobucket.com/albums/yy253/lemon095/?action=view&current=Video0014.mp4)

(http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy253/lemon095/th_Video0040.jpg) (http://s797.photobucket.com/albums/yy253/lemon095/?action=view&current=Video0040.mp4)


these two videos of me practicing one night, what do you(the community) suggest is a style that fits what you see? note, i do spar like this as well, maybe not as continuous, but same parameters.

Now its been said that forms are a mindset. If I had to quantify the seven forms in a word, I'd say this:

Shii-Cho: Basic
Makashi: Precision
Soresu: Defense
Ataru: Speed
Djem So: Strength
Niman: Balance
Juyo/Vapaad: Aggression

I agree, although, ironically, Ataru is called the Aggression Form :o Its focus is definitely more on speed than aggression.

I do not like the generalization of djem so as "strength". Swordsmanship has some level of strategy saying a light weapon light saber can be all strength makes no sense. Watch these guys this is how I define djem so, swift counters. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg#)

Couldn't agree more... strength helps... but it is not the basis for the form. The basis for the form is turning an attack back on your enemy. Essentially turning a block into a strike, or an offensive defense.

Very effective, and will end a duel quickly. So I think you are spot on with your idea of what Djem So should look like.

Strength is what seperates Djem So from Shien, which focus' more on maneuverability. Other than that the key function of Djem So is Retaliation/Reciprocating opponents attack

So I would agree, you are correct

Excellent point beans, and a very interesting video.  Definitely what I think of for Djem So, especially considering most Djem So forms draw inspiration from longsword and other medieval combat styles.

Strength isn't the only precept for the form, but the in-universe definition tends to emphasize it.

"Immediately after defending against an opponent's strike, a Djem So stylist followed with an attack of their own, bringing the force of the opponent's own blow against them and seeking to dominate the duel. Djem So placed a heavy focus on brute strength and pure power, with wide, powerful strikes and parries followed immediately by a counterattack."  - Wookieepedia on Djem So

I think the idea is that strength is utilized in order to execute the whole "turning an attack back on the user" idea.  Once again, this is where you get different versions of a Form due to subjectivity... one of my favorite things about the Forms really :)

I favour the hit them til they fall over style. Being built like a bear I hit hard and have won several duels with friends by blocking and launching quick, powerful counters. I used to do a bit of kendo at school and the two hand style suits me and my overlord well.

"Maksoratien" is the exact form that i naturally/instinctivley use.

I am a practicer of Vaapad. My friends always said I have more of a aggressive mentality when it comes to dueling and I love the fight, I guess you could call me borderline Sith. Not to mention no one expects a Jedi to attack aggressively and that catches people off guard, one some duels very easily that way.

I dont have a solid form per se that I practice, but I prefer the idea of Juyo and Djem So,  as I love swordplay and being very aggressive and prone to counter attacking.

As of right now, I've been leaning towards Soresu. My Level 36 Jedi Guardian has taught me it's merit. Plus, it's nice to know how to block when there's a guy coming at you with a bo-staff and then decides throw the kriffing thing you to go in for a melee assault. Soresu, my friends; the best offense is a good defense. I'm reading this now, because, frankly, I want to study a bit more. Form I (I am still a Padawan...) is on my list, along with Soresu. I want to look into Form II (because I am a man of Honor) and form V (because I'm not an idiot) are also on my list of "to study and adapt to". I'm not acrobatic, agile, or dexterous enough for Form IV, which is detrimental to my using Form VI. I just have no interest in learning Form VII. That might raise an eyebrow or drop a few jaws. The most badass style is not for me. I'm a Mighty Glacier, I need to fight appropriately.

I thank you, very dearly, for coming up with this. An entire group has found it wonderful.

Very cool man.  Soresu is a solid Form, Master Artorius pretty much goes with that as his primary style.  Patience and a tight defense go a long way.

I taught my own Padawan Form I, then went with Form II (mainly because it's my style).  He, like you, felt Soresu was a good fit, so I had Artorius begin teaching him that form.

One more thing, Form V is basically derived from Form III (applied offensively) so you could probably make a pretty cool one-two punch using them in tandem.

I'm an almost entirely self-taught Jedi, but my few masters have shown me a few tricks. I know for a fact what my physical strengths and weaknesses are; I'm still working on the skill though. My informal master is teaching me the basics (i.e. Shii-Cho). So, that'll be something. My rudimentary Soresu knowledge, my Shii-Cho training: it should last me a little bit.

The first time I've dueled in a long time was last weekend, I picked up a mock-up Soresu to try and stand up against two opponents that were clearly superior, one that was on par, and teamed with one that was equal. I ranked middle in our list. The one who had actually been trained, and is going to be my Seifu/Sensei, uses what would probably be considered Niman. My equal partner used something like Shien or Ataru; chick was fast but strong: glad she was with me. The other superior I had used an unrefined Juyo. I had to remain on constant defense to last. I was going against a bo-staff using Juyo, managed to overcome with a Jar'Kai variant of Soresu (which I plan to work on). These were actual swords, not lightsabers. We don't have those just yet.

That's my thinking exactly. Form I, first. Form III, next. Then Form V. After that, Form II. I'm going to try and get back into martial arts, solely because of my renewal in swordsmanship. I used to do a little boxing, muay thai, and jui jitsu; any suggestions for what would help get me back into physical condition while I search for both a fencing and kenjutsu/kendo instructor?

While I favour Juyo/Vapaad and I do tend to use an all offensive strategy (as I am 5'6 and about 140lbs) where I use my small stature and agility to my advantage. Much like how I am with fencing, and kendo/iaido, I do try to come up under my opponent's guard at angles that are somewhat harder to block. While I say this I also favour a bit of my own style as well where I use reflective attacks where I take my opponent's own energy and redirect it against him/her. It stems from both my training in kendo/iaido and my martial arts training (do zen chuan/shotokan/aikido/goju-ryu/wadokai/kung fu/judo/etc...). While that doesn't stem from all those styles; I do try to work it in as best I can. From that I sort of have a hybrid of that reflection style and Juyo/Vapaad to which I am rather proud of I must admit.

I may some day post a video to demonstrate if I can either find someone with a saber around here to help, or possibly with my bokkan...and again another person to help demonstrate. If you can get the hang of it, it IS pretty effective.

That sounds pretty cool man.  Posting a video would be great too!  I'm always interested in seeing people's interpretations of these Forms.

Thanks man, yeah a lot of the basic reflective techniques come from one of my teachers, and from that I practiced them and tried to build on those teachings with ones that worked well for me. It is really a simple style to pick up, but perfecting it is where the trick comes in.

Definitely.  Just curious, what weapon did/do you fence?

Well I've used everything from a foil to a claymore when it comes to "western" styles of swordplay. But, I favoured mostly the Rapier, it's strength coupled with it's slender and agile movements made it the one I used most. if a sword is sturdy enough I do one technique where I block a downward strike angular-ly and use the force of their strike to act like a snap effect so my blade comes around and can either take the head at the neck or come crashing into the collarbone. Mind you I never go full boar to avoid injuring my opponent, unless of course they have ample protection to keep the from any serious trauma of the impact. In a practical sense it is a devastating technique if pulled off correctly. It works very nicely with a katana or wakazashi which is where I originally began practicing it.

Very interesting.  I know what you're saying with that technique - unprotected dueling definitely takes away from potential actions.  I actually enjoy using styles like Ataru and Djem So, but tend to forego those in sparring as their aggressive nature can be dangerous to a fellow combatant.  It's rather lucky I suppose that Artorius and I tend to utilize Soresu and Makashi respectively as our default Forms... we don't have to have that fear of hurting each other while we spar.  Still, we try to be careful!

I need to not be fat so I can streamline my form and show you guys.

M.J. is doing Ballet and getting fit, so in turn she's moving much faster when we duel.

That sounds awesome, her getting faster will motivate you to get faster!  Competition is a good thing :)

I kind of wish I had signed up with her.

Although Tap is an interesting Idea; it will definitely help my stamina.

Yeah I can be somewhat aggressive but I do not go full boar most of the time out of both respect for my opponent and so I don't unwittingly strain my shoulder. But, I am capable of going fairly fast on my own when there is no risk of hurting someone accidentally. Those are some nice styles as well and I can see why you like them, I favour Juyu/Vapaad because I need speed and agility to overcome the size difference between me and most people. I usually get yoda jokes because of how short I am compared to most people I know.


Weight isn't always a bad thing, it can make you like a rock of stability in some regards. Play to your strengths I say, and sometimes weight means little some people are incredibly fast despite size.

That's awesome she is doing ballet, it is very good for in creasing agility, also gymnastics is very helpful too. While I cannot do back flips, I do have some experience in it and it is very beneficial to increasing your
speed. I also HIGHLY recommend doing vertical pushups (making sure you have someone to hold your legs while you do them) for increasing stamina; I tend to attach weights to my hips and it helps very nicely.
However, remember to start with mats under you till you get used to it to avoid injury.

Another nice thing to is more of a Sith technique but you fake a side ways cut then let your opponent take your lightsaber down then bring it up underneath and take the arms. I know it's a little underhanded
but it can end a difficult duel real quick. The upside to Juyu/Vapaad is Sith need not worry about taking from the pool of emotions.

Technically i'm "Over weight", I'm just out of shape. lol

Even if it is underhanded isn't it a Jedi's goal to end the duel quickly? ;D

Ballet... hmmm.... I know a girl who does ballet and it has helped her in martial arts and tennis alike. It is also seemingly very calming.

Anyways.... what form do I favor? Soresu, no doubt. All about defending until the other person gets worn out and makes a mistake, then landing  an annoyingly easy blow ;) At least that's how it is if I'm duelling someone my level or under - against someone like my good friend SOTJ, it's basically just seeing how long I can last before getting the living snot beaten out of me.

LOL Indeed, but I would take the head off 9/10, or I would take the arms THEN the head. So I tend to go over kill with a saber :P, I would be turning people into beef cutlets.

It's funny, in reality I prefer non lethal means of defense, and things that don't do permanent injury (though temporary or minor damage I can somewhat deal with), but when it
comes to lightsabers I tend to get very, very evil. :D

Juyu/Vapaad really is my kind of style because it's a real Do or Die method in some regards.

While reviewing a few videos, I've noticed that I get most of my hits off a parry with a quick downward strike to the mid section - this usually happens when my opponent attempts an overhand strike.  Almost all of them, really.  I do like to switch it up to an underhanded grip (and really can't wait to have my initiate blades and dual wield like this) with quick rolling strikes, though.  I'm short-ish ( 5'8 ) and a slight 145lb, but have rather strong arms due to a tendency to do push ups and pull ups all night at work, this lends really well to being nimble and evasive, but striking quick and hard.

I'd say I switch between Soresu and Ataru though nowhere near mastery of either.  Needs moar practice.

Yup, same here.... it's all or nothing kind of style

Yeah, there is a whole pool of emotions there which can really effectively increase your strike, agility and targeting potential. Which plays into my strengths, though I may do a little more work on the other styles just so I have a better base knowledge of them all.

If you can tap into those emotions safely and effectively, more power to you.  I've never been able to use my anger and passion to any effect (especially not in fencing), so Juyo/Vaapad have never really presented an option for me.  All it does is throw my technique off and destroy my game.

Artorius manages to do it quite well though, which is why he can use Vaapad so efficiently.

I can use emotions to my advantage quite effectively in tennis. While I am very much a confidence player (meaning that I normally have to be playing well to be confident and confident to be playing well etc.), if I'm angered, I can take things up a notch. However, I never use anger in dueling.

I have anger issues... anyone who duels me or sees me on a daily basis would never know this, because I use Juyo. I take all that anger and channel it into my form, but my anger doesn't control my actions. It is transformed into speed energy and strength. So I'm not angry when I fight, but I channel that anger through my attacks. It works wonders for me... but there is a reason few Jedi used Juyo, it isn't easy

I more tap into the proverbial "madness" than any clear emotion. I tend to laugh and throw out occasional fakes to throw my opponent off guard. I like getting inside someone's head in any kind of duel or defensive situation. Once you do that you pretty much have won. It's not always possible to do that but I find it an effective strategy. However, I do not encourage the use of emotions when teaching Martial Arts, or Kendo/Iaido, because in the hands of an experienced student they can wind up getting seriously injured in any form of actual confrontation they can't simply get away from. In fact, when teaching I teach no emotion and to remain calm. In many forms of sword play, I tend to mimic my opponent's stances, mannerisms, and what have you; not as an insult, or to be rude, but it helps me learn their movements and get a read on possible attacks or defenses they may have.

When it comes to dueling however, much like a few others who have posted, I tend to use Juyu/Vapaad, because it DOES play into my more aggressive and emotion driven leanings I would otherwise suppress. That, however, much like Lucien has stated himself does not control my actions but more fuels them. I can completely understand how not everyone can utilize this form and it can really mess up someone's "game" it is a fairly difficult thing for people to keep their emotions from going out of control and is why I see the reason for existence for the other Forms other than preference. They all play to an user's strengths.

I've tried many of the other forms, and to be fair, I've probably incorporated bits and pieces from them into my own personal style. But, both as a personal philosophy and one in sword play (even saber dueling) I tend to try not to limit myself. That ISN'T to say anyone who picks one style over another is limiting themselves of course, just fighting purely on instinct rather than relying only on disciplines is just how I've developed. I've come from a school of thought that takes what works and use it. LOL Sorry for the ramblings, I tend to do that when I get on a train of thought.

Well I guess knowledge is power and all that. :D

That's precisely what I'm talking about when I refer to people who use Juyo effectively.  If you have anger issues, and can use those feelings as fuel (while preventing them from controlling you) it can be incredibly effective.  That's the whole idea behind Vaapad - using the strength of the emotions while avoiding the temptation to give into them outright.

When it comes down to it that's the inherent difference in philosophies between Vaapad and Juyo, the former being a Jedi form and the latter being a typical Sith form.  Vaapad allows for a lethal but controlled offense, while Juyo truly permits the user to cut loose.  It makes sense when you think about the fact that Sith (or any darksiders) care little about restraint in battle - maiming or killing their opponent is certainly not frowned upon.

Like I said, as far as fencing goes I've always found it difficult to employ my anger in a constructive way.  The fine control required for point control just doesn't mesh well with it.  That said, I don't think it's impossible... I just don't know too many people who have managed to pull it off.  Most of the high level competitive fencers you see are really pretty laid back guys, and I don't think that happens by accident.

I get what you're saying, and that is so very true. It IS truly a difficult feat to separate the focusing of emotions from uncontrolled aggression. I keep my true fencing mindset and my saber dueling mindset very much apart though. When it comes to dueling I give into the raw surge of emotions and aggression, however, with actual fencing I am not ruthless or frankly malicious. That's why I love saber dueling, it allows me to portray myself and my skills in the darker tendencies I always loved playing from the games. Allowing me to be that Sith in which I put forth in a practical and cathartic activity, plus it's just good fun with someone else who is in to the whole battle of wits and strategy. :D

As I asked in the ´saber Form´ thread...

There are many versions... and many of them crappy done on YouTube. Many wannabe´s too.

Is there a way to get all these teachers of a newly invented sword fight style together and make these forms perfect.. then write them down.. and film them done by a sword pro.

The last one was done by a person who I dare say cannot even push his own body weight up and ended the form hitting the floor with the tip of his saber.. And he claimed to know what he was doing.

I have practiced Masrtial arts for years... a shame only limited katana techniques in them. But I know crappy work when I see it. I would love this style )re' created in a serious way.

I am new to the way of the saber, and to the ways of the sith. I started studing shii cho but thats because I don't know where on the Internet I could enlightened advice welcomed.

After practice I learned not to favor one or 2 but them all I have taken something from each of them and created my own style my new philosophy to wielding a saber as a master isn't from mastery of the form its the mastery of your body.

I personally prefer Form V Shien/Djem So, this is know as the Way of the Krayt Dragon and as most people probably know is a highly offensive form that generally requires a great deal of strength and speed to execute properly. That said it is my favorite to use of the forms simply because I'm naturally a larger person and can often bring the heavy blows necessary to throw off one's opponent. I do however have a soft spot for Form II Makashi, this is the Way of the Ysalamiri. I have no official training in fencing so this form is very difficult for me to get a hold of. But the elegance and the highly defensive nature of this form I believe is truly beautiful. The main point of focus for this form is precision and being able to strike where you mean to. I use both of these forms relatively well and have a strong preference for both of them.  :)

Being a Form II stylist with an interest in Form V, I feel that there is definitely a connection between the two Forms.  I tend to think of them as achieving similar goals by different means, one with subtlety and precision and the other with domination of the opponent.  If I had to pick two Forms for myself, Makashi and Djem So would be my choices.

The consummate duelist choices. If people are into the one on one aspect of sabering, Form II and V are the go to Forms.

I don't know if I have a style but most of my opponents tend to forget to guard their feet for example I've discovered that if I attack or defend I can watch for the spot their not guarding and whoosh flip the lightsaber into that Undefended area. It's generally not a serious wound but they're defeated. And they learn to guard more then they're vitals.

Peace leads to prosperity which leads to true happiness for all. This is what the Jedi vow to uphold, and the only way that will bring fulfillment and purpose to your life.

My preferred forms are II and V.
I favour the Shien variant, and generally use a reverse grip with that.
(Yes, I know... I'm one of those ;))

I like these two forms due to the amount of control I have with where and how to strike.
I find the other forms that focus on attack power a bit to unwieldy.
Perhaps it's just me? :-\

Obviously, all of this is underpinned by some work in Form I.

peace leads to oprritunity, oprritunity leads to an idea, ideas lead to wars and this is your truth of peace a cycle you can never end. When the Jedi fail where do the people turn to they will turn to us the side of truth you go out claiming peace and start wars for it so what is more evil the ones who create a so called peace or the ones who let you choose your freedom.

I am still only working on Shii Cho, so am not familiar with the other forms.  Djem So and Makashi do appeal though. :-)

I would have to say it depends on the specifics of the battle. If I am fighting someone who doesn't know anything about fighting, then I will just use Shii-Cho; no point waiting around for them to do something, might as well just finish it quick. If I am fighting one person, especially an aggressive or cocky fighter, I will use Makashi as it takes advantage of their wasted energy and exploits their lack of defense. Now lets face it: a big reason for having a lightsaber is showing off, hence Soresu. I can't imagine it actually working against any real opponents though. However, I do like the philosophy of non-violence and defense. Lastly, I'm a big fan of Form IV: Ataru as I practice parkour and gymnastics and like to implement this into the fight. In a staged fight this would just be showing off again, but there is merit in ambush, as well as the ability to flee if necessary. Also, it is nice to use the rest of your body as well, especially since immobilizing the opponent's blade could mean an easy victory.

But with the Sith there is no such thing as freedom or truth. History has shown time and time again that they want power, and the ability to rule. And are willing to tell whatever lies they must in order to do so. Their desire to dominate is only overshadowed by their desire to bring the destruction of Jedi. Jedi never start any form of conflict but take the quickest and most peaceful action to resolve it. This is the way of the Jedi, not to start wars or bring about suffering. We are the keepers of the peace, and in doing so give people the freedom they desire. But apart from that, we give them hope. Something the Sith could never do.

i respect what you say, apart from soresu. I have utilised soresu more times than anything else against my very agressive sparring partner, and it works amazingly. Trust me, it has it uses.

But as you have seen in history the people call for peace but do nothing to claim it because even tho they ask they will never stop the conflict you can try but desire will always win to act on those desires is true peace.

This is what separates the Sith from the Jedi. The Sith will always act upon their passions citing that it brings peace within them and that they can guide others to the same path. The Jedi are selfless and forego their desires for a more spiritual peace than a peace of their physical being. To act on selfish desires brings peace of the moment, but not the long term peace of a life of service. It is true the people may not be able to claim the peace they desire to have and may always wish for some form of conflict. That said, to act on one's desires is a selfish decision, and when those desires require the injury of others the Sith never think twice. The Jedi will never act in a selfish manner, let alone act in a way that will bring about the harm of another. Sith however act only for themselves and if that means hurting their fellow man they will still make the selfish choice.

Well, Keeping this about Forms (the philosophy side is largely forbidden on this site, but I do have strong views on that, from a Sith perspective!)

I am an inexperience saberist, but already my preferences are becoming clear. I am predominantly Shii-Cho/Djem So, favouring simplicity, strength, directness and bone crushing attacks. Subtleness, surprise, and nuance are not lost on my though, especially since I began studying Makashi, but I prefer to look at Makashi as a way to add economy of movement and very rapid, pin-point accuracy to the sweeping power I'm already developing. There are elements of the rotation of Ataru and Screen blocking of Soresu in my freestyle work, but these are very minor elements at the moment I feel.

The TPLA Masters who have been helping me develop; Darth Nonymous, Master VorNach, Master Nero Attoru, Master Artorius Vidnyl and Sentinel Uilos have seen my "style" as much as anyone, so they can either confirm or correct my assessment accordingly.

As an illustration of my skills, I offer these;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfywr3nIdFU#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfywr3nIdFU#ws)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2iuUTSWmjM# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2iuUTSWmjM#)

I'm not sure what Form I'm using, but when I use a Lightsaber, I usually use a lot of defensive spins that turn into an offensive slash, with the occasional thrust. Sometimes I switch to my off-hand and practice like that, other times I use my Lightsaber with the blade parallel to my forearm. What Form(s) am I using?

The defensive spinning which leads to an offensive slash sounds very reminiscent of Makashi. The point of this form is to be highly defensive while at the same time using powerful counter attacks to keep your opponent at bay. The thrusting attack is called the Shiak. It is the somewhat signature move of the Makashi style. However to use the blade parallel to your forearm I believe is a Niman technique. (I could be wrong on this last one so if I am my sincerest apologies.) Niman however is somewhat of a combination of a variety of Forms, that said you could be using strictly Niman or using Makashi with a different twist on it.
Hope this helped!

I have to say that I'd agree with the Shiak technique coming in from Makashi, but the defensive spinning (if you're referring to vertical orbits - think "Obi-Ani" spin) sounds like Soresu. Soresu is largely defensive in nature, waiting for the best opening to launch a counter attack.

The other form known for some "reverse grip" work is Form V: Shien. But yes, Niman is more of a concept form (like Juyo) in which you are looking to defuse and end conflicts as peacefully and quickly as possible. That's not to say that Niman cannot be used effectively in battle, because it can, but the emphasis is on defusing situations rather than prolonging them.

Does any of that like what you do?

Well, that's mostly what I do when I am practicing. But recently I've been fighting people a lot more then usual, and I've noticed that I usually start using Makashi and Soresu at the start of the battle, and when I've figured out what Form my opponent has employed, I immediately go into what I like to call, "Fury of a Jedi." A very un-Jedi like mindless volley of strikes, using both hands and swinging with all my might. I find it extremely effective, it puts my opponent on the defensive and they're usually very surprised at the sudden change of behavior, I guess I'm using Juyo at times like this. Ive also broken HG Blades in half when I use this technique.

From the sounds of it, I would say that this particular style involves far too much force, especially if you're sparring without protective equipment.  I don't like to come down on people and be the safety police, but I just have to make that observation for your own sake (not to mention the sake of your sparring partners).  MAV and I never use that level of force when we're sparring, and we're working with many many years of swordsmanship experience that gives us a certain level of control.

That said, the tactics you're using are sound enough when used correctly.  An aggressive approach tends to throw off most inexperienced fighters, who are utterly unable to defend themselves effectively (when you think about it, an attack simply requires swinging the weapon, while a defense requires the muscle memory and reactions to get a parry in place for protection).  Of course, another downside to this approach is that depending on the opponent's perception of a swordfight, their reaction may not even be a defensive maneuver which can result in an attack failing... it's one of those things you really have to read before you commit.

I would add to what Master Nero said by saying that crafty opponent will keep clear of your "flurry", parrying only when they have to, and let you tire yourself out, then open you up like a clam shell! You have to be careful, not only from a safety point of view (absolutely!!!!) but also from an over-extension point of view as well. You sound like you put everything, and perhaps too much, into your Blitzkrieg, but if that doesn't work, then what? Also, I am concerned about the use of the term "mindless". That, from my MA background, is something you should never be. Rather the reverse; be mindful of your actions, and the reactions they create in your opponent. A flurry can cause confusion, turmoil and openings, BUT you must have something left "in the tank" to either capitalise, or change tactic if it doesn't work.

The other option, and the one I like to use on barbarian or berserker type duelists, is stepping in and jamming your offense. Meet your unstoppable force with a bit of immovable object. It generally throws the attacker off their game enough to score a controlled mark of contact.

Now those who learn to have measured fury and controlled chaos are truly a force to be reckoned with. I'd venture to say impossible without either safety gear or serious risk of injury.

As Master VorNach always says, "safety gear, safety gear, safety gear!" lol It makes all tactics possible and serious injury free.

Lately I've been messing more and more with the idea that the best parry is not to parry. I adjust depth, let the blade pass, and counter before my opponent can reset. I suppose that's a Makashi thing.

*Nods like Jar Jar*

A-ha!

Can we say "over kill"? Let's try to remember that these are supposed to be labor SAVING devices.

I am used to fighting with steel and other poly weapon at full force. I cannot conceive of breaking a heavy grade blade. I have seen them bend, but not snap in half.

I am, what my friend recently called, "garage trained?" Self taught essentially. after flinging my body unbalanced for years, I had spirit but lacked actual technique. I eventually came across a book on Kenjutsu, The art of Japanese Swordsmanship. I use a lot of the Kenjutsu when I spar with someone, along with some german longsword techniques I found from a video on Youtube. Since I haven't been able to practice on hot days here in Sacramento, I go out at night and use my friends as practice. It seems to be a pretty effective mix of techniques for myself at least. But that being said, my being self taught leaves me incredibly vulnerable at times. I'm working on it all, but it's more of a hobby lately since I picked up Parkour.

It's an excellent tactic in the right circumstances, practice it well.
Remember that part of the tactic is being able to respond when your opponent is prepared for that tactic. You think they have passed you by you step in to counter only to find the tip of their blade in your sternum.

Developing an understanding of distance/measure is incredibly valuable (Something Masters Nero and Nonymous can speak on with a great deal of expertise) and worth the time an effort. Don't stint on other valuable concepts though.

Jammo, would you be able to provide any video samples of your practice?

Ah ha !!!
Historic context !!!

http://youtu.be/Eq1uuO5UsW0 (http://youtu.be/Eq1uuO5UsW0)

Nice to see that I'm not the only one that thinks that a good idea.

In fencing we call that tactic a distance parry, and it's pretty much the most ideal method of defense.  If you can manage that, then your control of your distance is excellent, and you should be able to take on pretty much any duel with great success.  The safest (speaking of a real duel where you don't want to get hit) and most effective techniques involve that kind of perfect timing, striking when the opponent is most vulnerable.

Very Makashi I'd say, but I'm sure Djem So would use it as well considering its emphasis on counterattacks.

Call me crazy but that sounds suspiciously like dodging. :D

Favorite form?  Hard to say.  I have pondered that question since first I heard there were seven of them.  For some time I was very active in the SCA, trying to pull off a Samurai persona, which of course led me to katana-style and found my natural tendencies were toward an aggressive style.  The description of form seven (seemingly unconnected attacks from all angles that seek to trick your opponent into an opening) pretty much was my method for the longest time.  But, like Master Nero, I never really could find anything productive in fighting angry or with any emotion really, so that kind of through that idea out.  I never was as defensive as a Soresu specialist, so maybe Djem So/Shien.  Long story short, in the end I actually started to think of myself more as Niman, since I use a little bit of everything in combat yet have not quite mastered any specific aspect.  My interest/love for the style grew immensely when I watched TPLA's take on Niman.  So my answer would be Niman.

To be honest, since I wait a lot, I always thought that a natural form for me is Soresu.
But as I start training this what I found for my self:

- Early in my training, I tend to switch to Shii Cho a lot. Even when I think Soresu or even Shien.
- Makashi is nice to have, especially if your opponent is a 'Juyo' user.
- Soresu is the form I want to attain, but I found that you need a lot of courage to apply it.
- Don't use Ataru. I'm too heavy <grin>
- Between Shien and Djem So, I can utilize both, but I'm leaning more to Shien now, since it is compatible with my Soresu techniques.
- I like the tactical thinking of Niman, although I only use its steps.
- Never like 'Juyo', although someday I hope I can define Vaapad.

So my favorite is definitely Soresu and Shien, with Shien at this moment is my primary form.

Now, I'm sorry for those who define their techniques as Juyo.
But to be honest, I met a lot of lightsabrist who swing their sabers a lot, and not really caring about hitting their opponent too hard or the risk of hitting a dangerous mark.
So, I need a term to describe them...and Juyo seems fit.

I'll toss in by two cents on this.
I wouldn't mind learning a bit of each form (Except Jar Jar'Kai, unless that can also apply to double-bladed sabers and not just dual-wielding)
The Forms I use also depend heavily on the hilt I'm holding.
For example, I try to implement more spinning techniques when using my Initiate V3 or Aeon V3's, so Forms III, IV and V?
The Standard Issues seem heavier, more solid, so they are my Form I and V for sheer speed and power.
My Liberator and Bellicose don't fit into any one category for me, I use them relatively comfortably for each form.
The Prophecy is another spinning-oriented saber for me, and I use it most with a 24" blade, don't know what Form that would go under.
Finally, my newest acquisition, a Phantasm Initiate, has seen the most use as a long-hilted saber with only one 32" blade. It's actually very easy for me to swing around, being the V2, and only 18 inches or so, I prefer Forms I, III, and V.
Nero, please don't hate me for not using Form II with anything, I'm working on finding something comfortable!  ;)

Prophecy is perfect for Makashi, give it a try!

Guess I'll give it a go then.  :D
Thank you, Master Nero.  8)

You're quite welcome!  I do love the Prophecy line  ;D

If I could ask a question, would a long blade or a short one be better for Makashi? I am most comfortable with 24" and 32" blades on the Prophecy. Since it's based on fencing, I would guess a longer blade, but I'm not sure.

For me, the 32. You need at least some reach, but speed is essential enough to the point that a 36 is usually too much.

I get my renaissance masters messed up, but I do remember one of them (I think either Di Grassi or Agrippa) recommended the length from the tip of the blade to the cross-guard (so basically to the edge of your hand closest to the blade) should be the distance from the ground to your navel, so I'd go with something of about that length.

Certainly not a bad rule of thumb.  I tend to say that it depends on the person - I like lightweight blades since I use my wrist and fingers to control it, so 36 inch mid grade or 32 inch heavy grade is my preference.  It really depends on what kind of balance you like on your weapon, and how much reach you're willing to sacrifice for speed.

Definitely depends on the person.  If I went by that rule, I'd use a 36" blade, minimum.  Probably would be closer to a 40" or longer If I actually measured it.  Yet I prefer a 32" blade for one-handed stuff.  Though to be fair, I've yet to actually spar with that setup, so I could find that it's not ideal. 

So something I learned today. I like my Guardian (heavy saber) with a 36" mid grade when dueling 3 or 4 people in an area where I can move in an ataru type form. However when facing my brother who is as good as me in a confined space I prefer an initiate v3 with a 36" mid grade and I'd probably more vaapad in that situation. So hope that helps in some small way.

It makes sense, a larger space allows you to wield the saber in a way to generate a large amount of power to counter multiple opponents.  This is actually one of the canonical aspects of Ataru that holds true - the space requirement.  In a smaller, more restricted environment, you need to keep your movements much quicker and more controlled due to these limits.

Hmm I just had an idea for a video

I've had something of a rollercoaster recently, looking at things that I really hadn't thought possible before, so I just wanted to chime back in here and get some advice and opinions really.

I've always considered myself mainly Shii-Cho, cos' I want things simple, easy and straight-forward. I'm not a "flashy" person and I'm not terribly agile either.

N.B. before I continue it's worth pointing out that I have NEVER duelled with a saber. There's nobody around me who I can practice with so I have no idea how I'd be in a fight. The only experience of "sparring" I have comes from TKD and I absolutely HATED that aspect of the Martial Art. I cannot spar to save my life, nor can I do it in a calm way. I lose my temper a LOT and I'm just useless. Basically, I hate gettting hit....it REALLY winds me up!

Anyway, I'm getting off topic. The point I was trying to make is that this is all an academic and theoretical situation for me right now; which I don't see changing any time soon....unless or until I find someone to spar with.

I guess what I'm trying to ask here is what am I exactly? I incorporate moves into my sequences that are not basic Shii-Cho; examples of these might be - two-handed Moon Guards, minor vertical orbits, body spins (occasionally) etc. I don't have the Makashi reach and side aspect, the Soresu passivity or the Ataru acrobatic skill though. So what does that make me? It feels like a hotchpotch of just different, unrelated "stuff".

Before anyone says it too, I know the answer to the paragraph before last is "what am I? A beginner!".

Yes the other thing I think is that in the open space my brother can be one of the opponents but it's free for all, so he has to watch his back too. In the confined space it's just me and him so he can become an "Alorn berserker" which I still have trouble countering. Maybe I need to try more soresu in confined spaces because my other theory is I combine all three ataru, soresu, and Vaapad, to make a style of constant non flashy movement powered by emotion. Those are the two ways I see my fighting style right now. Maybe I can get a video up. I'd have to convince my brother to go up to the gym where we'd have room for a camera. But I think he'd like to film a duel between us. And maybe others. If others it would have to wait till around Christmas.

I tend to think of your true style being what you fall back on in a dueling scenario, so it's difficult to make a call here.  From everything you've submitted to TPLA, I find that your core is still Shii-Cho, but this seems like an obvious thing considering your particular point in your training.  I think once you progress farther and become comfortable with some of the concepts of each Form, you'll find yourself using a blend of these ideas... which is likely to carry a particular Form as a main point of focus.  For you I would predict either a Shii-Cho or Djem So type of approach, but I would certainly keep your mind open to other ideas.  Who knows, you may find you love Ataru after a bit of training!

Yes, I think you're right. It's too early to really know what is going to happen, I only know what I have an interest in, and which forms I'm particularly interested in. My preferences and prejudices are based largely on my bulk and immobility, but that may change....who knows?

I do feel like I will be Djem So, eventually, though.

Yeah. I hope to be able to refine my technique more. Cause facing off against three or more 8-10 year olds is different from facing off against the same number of opponents who are the same size.

Certainly, and also much different from sparring multiple opponents with combat experience, especially ones who know how best to exploit their advantage!  The only reason I've maintained success in these situations in the past is that I tend to be lucky enough to face inexperienced opponents.  The one time I did so against Master Artorius and a friend of mine, it was VERY difficult, and that was with only one experienced swordsman.

As a total aside this to me is what makes the fact that Sith are frequently shown taking on multiple well-trained Jedi adversaries, and either holding their own or winning, all the more incredible. The Canon answer must be that it is what they train for....though with the rule of two in place, how is a mystery. lol

There are always sith followers like General Grievious.

Makashi, it is THE only option when dueling with jedi. As a sith jedi expect me to be ruthless and full of anger. But the art of the saber is just that, an art. Being that i am classically trained in olympic fencing, it comes naturally and is honestly enhanced by the open ended-ness of lightsaber dueling. Considering there are less rules in a force battle than there are in a saber fencing bout.

True but part of this is real world applications :)

So this has been a thing for me for a long time now... my form mutates in accordance with the weapon in hand. Anyone else tend to do this?

Yes in fact here is my own post about my own forms.

Ever design a whole set of tactics and moves around a particular weapon? Or did I design the weapon around the tactics... meh, who knows?

Yes I wield a lightsaber differently from a sword. Bit that mainly has to do with style then form.

Well, the characteristics are inherently different. The lightsaber has a 360 degree edge, making cuts possible that mean nothing with an edged weapon, plus the theory of operation requires that you use a whole lot less of your blade to make a disabling or even fatal strike with a lightsaber. If had a couple people with sword training get a little banged up until they understood these things.

True sorry I think I was tired when I posted last :)

I don't use any style, i mainly just deflect everything, draining my opponents strength.

Lol...Dreighton Leech Style!

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cb_qndGSzsw/TYUvtFpwYaI/AAAAAAAAAWg/PlJOiyNgyPo/s1600/Carnictis2.jpg)

more like human leech style

Soresu, aka Iceman style...

"Ice cold, no mistakes. He wears you down, you get bored, frustrated, do something stupid and he's got you."

That's probably one of the best non-SW quotes for describing Soresu that I've ever heard haha

It does capture its essence, though...

Soresu.... even the name sounds perfect for me! I'm definitely training in Soresu

It does indeed!

I am mainly a practitioner of the Shien side of Form V, but I do utilize Djem So as well.

Vapaad all the way.
#TheFireRises
#GoBigOrGoHome

my favorite saber form is pretty much the one im actually capable of and thats form V: djem-so
i like the brute force concept and hammering away at the opponent.

Same here. Being short and stock doesn't lend itself to speed or agility.

maybe a bit of form VII: juyo
i can get aggressive during a heated saber fight

The 4th Ataru is my favorite one because of the martial art I am training for.

But because of my size/age, maybe I will change for a form less "acrobatic" :)

i also like form ii: Makashi
other then kendo i adore fencing practices.
makashi shows complete elegance in lightsaber duels.
so my top three favorites are form II, V, & VII

I employ a mix of Shien (backward grip and everything!) and Vaapad. Looks pretty badass with the reverse grip.

Many Djem So practitioners in SW lore are 6'+ and a mountain of muscle. I like Djem So but I'm 5'7" and a little on the heavy side, does size and stature make certain forms less suitable or do I use what I do have to my advantage and make my own personal Djem So style?
I'm a fan of swords in general, primarily katanas, long swords and rapiers (so maybe my hybrid Form will consist of Shii-Cho and Makashi built upon Djem So)
Because of my height what would be a good blade length for me?
Also, I had a random thought of trying to wield a yari extension connected to a mantis hilt, what are people's thoughts on that combination?

Anyone can use any Form, IMHO.  Djem So doesn't just use physical power, it uses applied power.  Less brute force and more technical expertise in weapon usage, which means anyone with any size or shape should be able to accomplish it!  In fact, in many ways I consider those tactics to be favorable to a shorter swordsman, since concepts like the bind require you to close distance (which is typically not the greatest tactic for a taller person with more reach).

Oh yeah you're right, one of the greatest Djem So masters in canon was about 5'8": Luke Skywalker
It makes sense about the shorter guy have the advantage at close quarters, when I used to spar with bokken I preferred the smaller shoto against my opponent. Once I was in close it was relatively easy to deflect their bokken and land a gentle tap on their arm

I gravitate towards Juyo just from my own experience in training with martial arts. My school put a lot of emphasis on aggression and ruthlessness and we were all trained to treat it as perfectly normal while fighting with staffs or sabers to throw in kicks/punches to create a fluidly unpredictable fighting style.

RESURRECTION

I've always loved Forms II and III. When being aggressive, I usually grip the saber with one hand and start thrusting and making quick swings towards my opponent, while also trying to advance to keep them moving backwards.

Defensively, I always grip the hilt with both hands and keep the blade close to my body, while also staying light on my feet and only deflecting blows when I know I can't dodge them (which I guess would be more of an Ataru practice).

Though, I don't strictly adhere to these habits when dueling. Sometimes I'll defend myself with one hand on the hilt, and sometimes attack with both hands. Honestly, it mostly depends on who I'm fighting.

So looking back on all that, I assume that I put into practice bits and pieces from most Forms, while ticking with the philosophies of Makashi and Soresu.

I'm working on my own form derived from my SCA Heavy Combat greatsword experience.  It's based on Joachim Meyer's Five Mastercuts, and the concept that no motion is wasted and every strike is aimed for the opponent rather than the opponent's weapon.  It's closest to Form V, but it has has an equal emphasis on defense and attack and little reliance on counter strikes.  I call it Krieghau, or The Way of the Bantha.

That's really cool!  Great user name too.  Can't wait to see what you end up making, be sure to post video here in the Saber Combat section when you're done!

Very interesting concept for a form. Regardless of the lightsaber form I am practicing, teaching or of the “mindset”, I always revert back to the kendo concept of Sansappo or the three ways of making an opening;
-kill the technique (parry and counter)
-kill the sword (move the sword out of the way and strike)
-kill the spirit (aggressively take away distance or the opponent’s center and strike)
At my school we talk about these three strategies frequently and are always practicing, developing and refining techniques for all three in whatever form one is currently studying. I want to read more and reflect on this idea of every strike aimed at the opponent to apply that concept to some specific saber manuavers and applications. Thank you for sharing! Very cool stuff.

Interesting breakdown!  I don't have experience in kendo but as a fellow swordsman, those three groupings make perfect sense to me.  Moving the opponent's weapon off the center line and violently closing distance seem to be two very consistent concepts in every sword art, and parry/counter goes without saying.

I'd love to see some more discussion, feel free to make a thread here if you feel the same way!  I have a passion for mixing it up with others from different arts and backgrounds in swordsmanship.

One of the Canne technics aims at moving the weapon of the opponent by kicking his/her arm (in fact, we can use kick as well as our weapon but it can be dangerous because our legs can be touched by the weapon of the opponent ... so kicks are difficult to do ;) ).

Moving the weapon of the opponent is interesting and you must use all your body. It makes the fight more physical and spectacular to me ;)

Can not wait to watch to any vids you could make !!!

Yes, I agree! Strategies for openings would be a great idea for a thread.  Every sword art has interesting takes on these philosophies that can be applied to modern light sabering. This forum is a great resource for various backgrounds.

Thank you! I have a lot of footage from the AFAs dueling night last week that I want to edit into a video real soon. After that, I think our next video will focus on a tutorial and theory discussion of openings. I look forward to everyone’s input.

Wow! Coming back to this after almost five years and BOY have things changed! Master Nero predicted a strong Shii-Cho/Djem So leaning, and that is definitely there at times, but I've become something of a devotee of Makashi. A fact that I'm sure will please him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzPLiGKobw8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzPLiGKobw8)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XpPs5SLsNA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XpPs5SLsNA)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qj5eCBcLJU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qj5eCBcLJU)

Hopefully I'm getting this in the right place, seems like a good place to start at least. I'm looking for opinions on what style best fits a saber staff (or double blade). I'm wanting to incorporate learning one of the 7 fighting styles into my workout routine. Hit the weights, do some cardio, train with my lightsaber. Seems like it could be fun while also adding an extra kick to my fitness regiment. It's also just something I've wanted to do for a really long time, learning some form of combat. I figure learning lightsaber techniques would be pretty cool. I've been doing my own research but I'm getting mixed reviews. I'm 6'7" and pretty well bulit, I'd be using a Dark War Glaive saber staff. I imagine using a style similar to that of Savage Opress. Slow, but strong and deliberate. Any and all opinions are welcome!

So, my personal opinion as a staff wielder is that Juyo and Vaapad are the best fits for the staff. That being said, I'm a hell of a lot shorter than you, 5'6. Still, a saberstaff's strength is that it is fast and adaptive at fighting multiple opponents at the same time. Outright strength isn't such a benefit with a saberstaff when compared to speed, agility and control and it's a great workout to use because it will always and forever engage your whole body. There's no other way to maneuver a saberstaff. When it comes to using it as a fighting implement, a staff is great because it's easy to add things like kicks and to use even the grip of the staff as a weapon. 

Here comes my personal opinion on double blade saber staff (Like Darth Maul's) ... that means that you can, of course, disagree ;)

I will not answer about "forms" sorry, but i will focus on what i understood about your needs: "Slow, but strong and deliberate"

As the extremities of a double blade saber staff are blades (yeah, i know, obvious ;) ), grip can only be done in the middle. Saying that, there are many staff fighting styles that can not be adapted because most of staff fighting styles propose extremity grip (English, French, Chinese ...). Actually, the main advantage of a staff is its length ... so using only middle grip is not researched.  

BUT some parts of many can be as middle grip can be used for some power close combat ;)

"Slow, but strong and deliberate" makes me think about some aspects of the "English" way, popularized by this famous duel ;)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petit_Jean#/media/File:Robin_Hood_and_Little_John,_by_Louis_Rhead_1912.png

In this vid, we can see the main middle grip technics of English Quaterstaff approach ... Hope it will help you tou figure what your own style could be ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXvT0y7Pk5Y

Or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXvT0y7Pk5Y for our Lady 7 ;)

That said, i would advice to try HEMA associations that practice English quarterstaff to have the basics. If not, you can try Wushu ... the style is very different but it can give you all the basics you need ;)

Hope it will help you to answer your own question ... let me know.

And it cannot be used to parry.  ;)

That said, it's almost useless against multiple opponents, as it cannot do the wide swings necessary to keep them at distance, and has a limited way of moving.

I'm using a version with two shoto-blades, that actually works a lot better - faster changing of directions, less risk of "cutting" oneself, easier handling. Against a single opponent, it works good, being able to disconnect the staff into two shoto gives some more versatility.

When it comes to the Seven Forms - to me, they don't make any sense at all (from a martial artist's PoV, mind you). You've got 7 different methods to use the same weapon, so basically you should be able to use any variant with every form.

You can if you consider some materials from the old "Legend" EU ... LOL

But yes, you are right ;)

Thank you! I definitely see the benefit of practicing real world styles of combat, and in the long run I'm sure it'd give me a more complete wheelhouse of capabilities compared to just practicing the 7 forms. But I'm still really interested in adapting one of those styles to my combat form.

What got me into wanting to try this out in the first place was my love for everything Star Wars. I play the Old Republic MMO, I re-downloaded the KotOR games to my computer and blazed through those, just finished watching "The Clone Wars" on Netflix for the third time since it premiered years ago. I've been a Star Wars since I was a kid, but I've recently doubled down on my fandom. Maybe it's because we're finally getting new movies, or just the massive amount of content out there now. But I've definitely jumped down into the black hole of the Star Wars universe, so to speak.

To stay on topic here, I'd for sure say I want to focus on one of the 7 forms from the Star Wars universe. Or at least some form of combat within that spectrum. The reason I mentioned Savage Opress is because I feel like he's really close to my body type. I a taller/bigger guy, and while decently in shape (I play basketball, lift weights, do cycling) I'm not super nimble or agile. I'm sure with time and getting in better shape those areas will show improvement, but I'd rather play up to my strengths than solely focus on slightly improving my weaknesses.

We all have this same problem LOL

Practicing the Forms needs strong basics. If you do not practice some MA or fighting sport, i think that practicing Form I with one blade could be a good idea.

Starting directly with a double blades saber can be very frustrating because it is very difficult ... everybody is not Ray Park ;)

 

Yeah, I think most martial artists will agree with you there.  The concept of the Forms just doesn't fit into real combat without extensive modification, which was how we managed to make that framework into a usable training method for TPLA.  Otherwise, it's mostly just fun fiction!


Basics are everything, which is why Shii-Cho is so essential.  You think once you've cleared it, you're done with it, but really... you come to the realization that EVERYTHING is Shii-Cho.

I prefer using a mix of offense and defense, a little heavy on the offense (my friend plays defense so I am practiced at breaking defense). We have been using bamboo poles, because my first order has not yet arrived, but I will be using a Flamberge as my main saber.

personally, I prefer forms V and II because I have a fencing background and I also have a martial arts background that teaches me to overwhelm my opponent  without getting myself hurt in the process