Saber Forum

Welcome to the Jedi Academy. This is a place to learn about all things Light Side (and maybe a few things that aren't so much).

Feel free to ask and answer questions as your knowledge base allows.

As previously stated, this is a thread for learning, for Jedi and Sith alike, who seek to know more about the Light Side. There will be NO FEUDING.

(Before anyone accuses me of piggy-backing off of Logos' idea, he was kind enough to ask me to head up this side of the discussion. Thank you, Logos.:))


Here is some deeper information about Tython to start us off:

Tython was a planet in the Tython system of the Deep Core that played a pivotal role in the histories of the Je'daii Order and its successor, the Jedi Order.

Tython was orbited by two moons: Ashla and Bogan, satellites that inspired the Je'daii Order's philosophy of balance between the light and dark sides of the Force, and the Je'daii maintained sentry drones in orbits thirty thousand kilometers above Tython's surface. Tython's environment was remarkably sensitive to the Force; powerful disturbances in the Force, such the presence of an individual particularly strong in either the light or dark side of the Force, could cause immense Force storms and groundquakes that would ravage Tython's surface.

I'm into this. I watched the original trilogy for the first time just two months ago, in preparation for TFA. Now I'm obsessed with learning as much as I can about this universe.



So, regarding the Light side, my first question is this: When a Jedi does something via the Force, are they *asking* the Force to perform the act, or commanding it?

"The Living Force represented the energies of all living things, and those energies were fed into the Cosmic Force that bound the galaxy together and communicated to individuals through the midi-chlorians." (Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force)

This does not mean that the force itself is sentient or aware in any sense; The Force just is.

When the Jedi (and the Sith) call upon The Force, they are manipulating--or commanding--that energy.

Think of magnetism or static electricity, those energies are tangible enough that our bodies can sense it/feel it when we are near them; so much so, that static electricity can arc out and create a shock and electromagnetism can induce panic or deep fear. However, we sadly cannot manipulate these energies.

Sweet.

As mentioned in the topmost post, Tython was home to the Je'daii order. Let's expand a little more on who the Je'dai were:

"Focusing on maintaining a balance in the Force, a state at which Tython was itself hospitable, the Je'daii saw the Force as two aspects of a whole; the Ashla and the Bogan. They saw this duality in the Force represented in the night sky of Tython in the form of two natural satellites; one bathed in light, another shrouded in darkness. In keeping with their ideal balance, Je'daii who fell too far to either the light or darkness were exiled to one of the moons to meditate until they returned to balance."

(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/4/40/Tython_Bogan_Ashla.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120202194029)

"The Order's presence on Tython was spread between nine Temples, each of which was presided over by a Je'daii Temple Master. In order to gain mastery in the Order, all Je'daii were expected to travel to each of the Temples to hone different skills."


"There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force."

―The Je'daii Code

"The Je'daii Order's primarily philosophy was that of the Balance—because of Tython's intense reactions to imbalance in the Force, the Je'daii strived to maintain personal balance between the light and dark sides of the Force. This philosophy was also inspired by Tython's moons: bright Ashla represented the light side of the Force, and the dark moon Bogan represented the dark side. In Je'daii philosophy, they acknowledged the fact that there was always a light within darkness, and darkness within light, so that it was impossible for one to ever be truly free of either."

(Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order)

Does it ever explain what happened when a Sith tomb was set up on Tython? I remember reading Darth Bane going to Tython to retrieve Darth So-n-so's holocron, but it was described as desolate. Would this have been caused by an overexposure to the Dark Side?

Ah, see, I was under the impression that a Dark side user bent the Force to their will, whereas a Light side user made their will known to the Force and then allowed it to flow through them.



So, if both Jedi and Sith/Darkside users command the Force to do their bidding, are there any deeper differences between the two of them besides the embracing or rejection of emotion?

"Sometime after the Galactic War, Tython's surface was severely devastated in some catastrophe, and the planet became saturated with dark side energy. During the New Sith Wars between the Republic and various Sith factions, the Shi'ido Sith Lord Belia Darzu took control of Tython and built a large fortress on the planet. Darzu, who was skilled in the use of mechu-deru—the ability to transform the flesh of living beings into metal machines—had conducted experiments within the fortress, developing the ability to create technobeasts in the year 1250 BBY. Building an army of the technological horrors and recording her knowledge within her holocron, Darzu initiated the phase of the New Sith Wars known as the Sictis Wars."


So, It doesn't say what happened to make it that way, but yes, it does address that the planet is out balance. However, we could theorize that the cause of this calamity could've been the use of the "Thought Bomb" technique; which we know Bane wound up learning from Revan's Holocron. It could also be explained as some part of a yet to be revealed storyline introduced in "The Old Republic."




Not that I can find, the intent of the user is what generally defines the light and dark aspects.

As evidenced by:

"A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning."

―Darth Plagueis

Jedi Master Plo Koon, Grandmaster Luke Skywalker and Jacen Solo have used "Electric Judgment"; as it was named by Plo Koon in the recordings of "The Great Holocron."

"It showed up as yellow or green energy instead of blue or white, but otherwise it was very similar in both appearance and usage to the Force power known as Force lightning. This power was uncommon and controversial among the Jedi because of its intrinsic association with anger and aggression." (Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment)

It is clear that the use of this and many of the other more offensive techniques employed by the Sith are made stronger by the embracing of one's emotions; be they anger, rage or even sadness. It isn't that the Jedi can't use these techniques, it's that they choose not to, especially the Jedi Council. It would seem that on the outside they are asking other Jedi to reject these teachings when instead, they are merely suggesting that those not old enough to understand the slippery slop they tread to not play with fire.

It has also been characterized as a manifestation of one's hatred.

So, as a companion question in the Sith thread:  Why are jedi failures so often forgotten?  An example being the Battle of Ruusan, were a monument was build, but very little of the history of the battles was saved in the jedi archives.

I feel that the jedi tend to "hide" failures or signs of not being perfect.  They fail to learn from mistakes, and so they tend to repeat a few hundred years later, instead of examining what caused the failure in the first place and trying to correct or address the cause.

Note that this is meant as an observation, NOT trying to say the Sith are any better.  I'm trying to understand, historically over several thousand years, the jedi order mindset.

That seems to be the case - apparently not just their mistakes but jedis altogether have been forgotten (again) in EP7 and also Han also said much earlier "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense. "
So in a huge galaxy with megatrillions of inhabitants we are talking about "more than ten thousand" jedis on it hayday, well, it's even easier to forget them altogehter when they have been exterminated. Even if it's just "almost" :)

And they are surely not perfect. Their religion-like ideology is not subject to change but pretty rigorous and traditional. It doesn't evolve much and when it does it's initiated by someone who is considered at least "strange" and "out of canon" in the Order: like Qui-Gon who managed to find a way to come back after death and tought it to whoever there was left available (Yoda, Obi-Wan). So as the overall ideology of the Jedi is a strict and non-flexible one, their mistakes remain unanswered. They never address their own issue but they are happy to address everyone else's issues backed up with the ideology that they are "plain right". There have been many jedis falling to the Dark Side, some returned but most of them lost for the Order for good - with no flexibility and capability of evolution it's a typical outcome.

The Sith Order was pretty much the same but in a more unorganized manner until Bane installed the rule of the two - since then the constant challenge between masters and apprentices guaranteed a high level of development and venturing into a lot of aspects of the force jedis were prohibited even to mention.
So as you say the jedis seem not to be capable of learning from their failures as much as the sith because their key element is to follow an ideology knowning that it's "the only true way" while the sith is up to a certain evolution which made it possible to defeat a whole galactic political system with jedis on its side by a handful of talented and flexible force users...
(An analogy for the mistakes can be again religion: how many times in human history when armies fought and one certainly lost have been asked: "Why did my God leave me?" instead of "Why I was so mistaken taking on this battle when the chances were pretty bad?" So in this paradigm it's never the person, it's always the Force ;))

Meanwhile 99.9999% of the galaxy inhabitants does not even have a clue that Force exists :)

I'm curious as to which failures on Ruusan you refer to.

History is written by the victors.

That's the short answer, this is the long answer:

Every time there is a major upheaval, not very much of that information survives. I imagine it is even harder to address and learn from your mistakes when you have no idea that mistakes were even made.

During the execution of Order 66, once again, all their information is lost; the assault on the Jedi temple resulted in the loss of The Great Holocron. The Great Holocron was the centerpiece of the Jedi Temple's library holdings.

Now, this may be a spoiler for those that haven't read any of the new canon Star Wars comics, but there recently was an issue that took place on Nar Shaddaa. Grakkus the Hutt was a collector of Jedi artifacts, he owned holocrons, statues, starfighters, he wore lightsabers on a chain as a necklace; that is until Vader showed up and destroyed everything.

To address The Battle of Ruusan:

"Ruusan was the site of seven battles between the Sith's Brotherhood of Darkness and the Jedi's Army of Light. During the last battle of Ruusan (1000 BBY) between the Jedi under Lord Hoth, and the Sith under Lord Skere Kaan, much of the planet's surface, including vegetation and several cities, were destroyed."

"After the battle had ended, a Jedi Knight named Johun Othone petitioned the Galactic Senate to construct a grand mausoleum containing the one-hundred fallen warriors called The Valley of the Jedi, located on the former location of Olmondo."

"Despite this, the expanding nebulae of the sector erased the hyperlanes connecting Ruusan[2] and the world was quickly forgotten, as the Galactic Republic turned inward."

(Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ruusan/Legends)

__________________

On the outside--with all the information that we can access about them in the EU--it's really easy to blame the Jedi for their own shortcomings and failures, but in reality they really aren't aware of them at all.

So it would seem as though they are in denial and being willfully ignorant of the past, they infact are constantly having their past destroyed. The Sith, every time, try their damndest to erase any and all information--no matter how small--that could possibly allude to the Jedi even having existed; this is why the Jedi are often thought of as myth and legend by the galaxy at large.

Their mindset is to continue on, despite the overwhelming odds against them and a lack of heritage to learn from. Not unlike The Incans, the Aztecs, even Native Americans and other early peoples whose history has been all but forgotten by time. (Not to get political, but the destruction of artifacts and ruins is happening to this day by Isis; it is cultural genocide.)

(I hope I was able answer your question.  :) +1)

It may also be note worthy that the hundred Jedi spoken of, died on a suicide mission to sew the deception that Kaan's use of the Thought Bomb would "ensure his victory".

What Kaan didn't realize is that the bomb destroyed all Force sensitives within the blast and trapped their spirits in a void of agony. The true effect of the bomb was contained by the cave that Kaan chose to make his last stand in. Had it been performed on the open surface, it would have taken every Force sensitive on Ruusan, even those in low orbit.

History is being rewritten...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Seventh_Battle_of_Ruusan

Darth Logos has one version, from his reading of the Darth Bane trilogy, while I was going from the version contained in Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith.  That version states that the jedi built a monument to their fallen, then intentionally tried to forget about the whole thing, especially the part where they conscripted children and sent them barely trained into battle.  Of course, without that, Bane would never have found Rain...

The Jedi vs Sith is a beautiful book, with all the artwork and the whole concept makes it like a holocron!

Housed in the Jedi Archives on Coruscant, the Great Holocron was the centerpiece of the Jedi Temple's library holdings. It contained vast amounts of information that was accessible to any Force-sensitive being willing to open itself to the holocron, and Jedi trainees were encouraged to explore its contents. Despite its ease of access, consumption of its manifold mysteries was thought to be impossible—even Master Yoda was thought, by Archives Director Jocasta Nu, to still struggle with its depth.

While the Great Holocron was designed to only reveal information that its user was prepared to encounter, inexperienced Padawans accessed the Great Holocron under the watchful eye of the Archives Director who stood ready to step in if the young Jedi was drawn in too far.

Following the rise of the Galactic Empire, the Great Holocron was lost, probably captured by the 501st Legion troopers in the assault on the Jedi Temple during Order 66.

It was eventually rediscovered by the New Jedi Order in 40 ABY and placed in the library of the Ossus Academy under the care of Master Tionne Solusar. She was not sure whether it was the real Great Holocron or a well-crafted replica. She would update the Holocron with data from recent eras to continue the work of former archivists before her.

Contents

Topics included basic and advanced lightsaber construction methods, Galactic Republic history, philosophy, Sith history, lightsaber combat, and Jedi techniques. The Great Holocron also included discussions on the dark side of the Force and methods to resist its call.

During the course of the Order's history, many Jedi contributed various scraps of information. Some of the stories and journals submitted are as follows:

• Obi-Wan Kenobi's recount of his meeting with the Sith Lords, Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus.
• Dooku on lightsaber combat, conquering arrogance, his resignation from the Order, and a protest to the Council after the events of the Battle of Baltizaar.
• Yoda on farsight and the Chosen One.
• Plo Koon on Electric Judgment and the Mission to Metellos.
• Cin Drallig on the seven forms of lightsaber combat.
• Mace Windu on Vaapad and the origin of the Korunnai; although the latter entry may have been propaganda by the Galactic Empire.
• Siri Tachi's observations of Anakin Skywalker.

To what extent did the Jedi Agro-corps use the Force, considering that most of them were Initiates that failed to make Padawan?

"The Agricultural Corps, or AgriCorps, was one of the four branches of the Service Corps of the Jedi Order. The largest part of the Service Corps, this organization was formed so that those Jedi Initiates who had failed to pass their Trials could use their connection to the Force for the betterment of galactic society."

"Working in conjunction with the Republic Agricultural Administration to provide healthy crops to those under-privileged star systems suffering from natural disasters or blight, the AgriCorps also attracted ranking members of the Order who wished to take a more hands on approach to helping the common people of the galaxy."

"Members of the Corps focused on the Living Force and cultivating skills that aided in plant growth such as consitor sato."

(http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Agricultural_Corps)

Consitor Sato

"Plant Surge, or Consitor Sato, was a light side Force power which allowed the user to improve the plant's rate of growth and even affect the manner in which it grows. In battle, the ability to control a plant's growth with the Force could be used to cause plants to grow with incredible speed directly under the user's control, causing plant life to grow and twist around opponents, ensnaring anyone who wasn't quick enough to avoid it. Once ensnared, the victim would find it difficult to dodge and fight, and nearly impossible to move unless they escaped through force or finesse."

"Fellow Master Shaak Ti used this technique in conjunction with animal friendship against Galen Marek during their duel on Felucia, commanding the local sarlacc to lash out at the Sith apprentice with its feeding tentacles."

(http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Plant_Surge)

Makes me wonder if DS users also had a form of this ability, considering its offensive uses, or if it fell under the same type of restrictions similar to the Dark Side not being able to heal.



I remember her befriending the sarlaac, but I don't remember plant getting involved in the equation.

In canon, the only thing alluding to a Sarlacc being a plant is this:

"Sarlaccs would begin their lives as spores and were able to travel great distances."

However...

According to the Sarlacc page, under the Legends tab:

"The sarlacc was a semi-sentient, plant-like, omnivorous creature found on several planets across the galaxy. Not much was known about this creature, but it was unique in terms of galactic species. It lived to be tens of thousands of years old, and reproduced by spores."

(http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sarlacc)

To be completely honest, I didn't know any of the above until you asked. +1

That is exceptionally confusing, since later in that same adventure Galen Marek ends up running through the "beast's" lungs. Plants don't have lungs. Or is the sarlaac supposed to be one of those weird SW things that doesn't completely fall in one category or the other? I remember reading something about an EU Jedi that was biologically a plant, that  manipulated its form into a woman.

And to think that Obi-Wan was slated for the Agricultural Corps...how different would the story have been then?

The Star Wars complete visual dictionary has a giant two page cross section of the Sarlacc.  It's gross.  Here, I found the picture:  https://www.google.com/search?q=sarlacc+cross+section&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiYzdaW8OHKAhVGJh4KHce5CC0Q_AUIBygB#imgrc=WfZGw9BYf6exyM%3A

You may be thinking of the Neti, although I don't know that gender applies to them.  One of them saved a treasure trove of ancient lightsabers on Ossus that was later discovered by Luke Skywalker.  See here: 
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Neti

And note that is all Legends :'(

You know, ever since Logos brought up the Argi-Corps, my mind went wild with the idea of a student not passing their trials and not being taken as a padawan. They are then assigned to the Agri-Corps, find it beneath them and slowly learn the value of it. The temple is attacked and our hero is the one that has to save their classmates through the use of their newly learned skills.

Jedi Masters (Holograms): "You're the only one that can help your friends, you must trust in yourself and trust in the force"

Hero: "Wait...you want me to protect the temple? I'm just the gardener!"
____________________

Anyway, I've been very tickled by this.  :D

I just had an image of a teen-aged jedi in green robes leading a forest of Ents....  I wonder if they get lightsabers for brush clearing?  Maybe something in a Pine Green.

Very interesting info, thank you!

Could someone suggest novels giving more info on the service corps? I'm gathering ideas for my jedi persona and I'd like someone who doesn't follow the 'usual' path.

Jedi Apprentice: The Rising Force, is the only novel that is under the Service Corps page and it first appeared in this book.

It is also referenced in: The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force and Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side.

Here is everything from Wookiepedia:

"The Jedi Service Corps was an organization formed by the Council of Reassignment during the Old Republic era as an alternative to serving in the more traditional capacity of the Jedi Knights. Because it was run by the Jedi Order, the members of the Service Corps were all considered Jedi, though many of its members had failed to pass their Initiate Trials and therefore could not proceed in training at the Jedi academy. "

The Service Corps was considered an honorable alternative to serving in the Army of Light or the mainstream Order following the Ruusan Reformation and the defeat of the Dark Lords of the Sith. Organized under the Reassignment Council, the Corps was made up of four branches: the Agricultural Corps, the Medical Corps, the Educational Corps, and the Exploration Corps. Membership in each was voluntary and many ranking members of the Order joined, but if an Initiate had failed the Trials the Council took care of assigning them based on different skills and requirements.

Serving the Galactic Republic in different ways than a Knight would, the Service Corps members were no less important in the Order and helped countless star systems throughout its history. Following centuries of involvement in galactic affairs, the Corps was disbanded in 19 BBY when the Republic's Supreme Chancellor, in truth the Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Sidious ordered that the Grand Army of the Republic slaughter all Jedi in the galaxy. While many were killed, many more were rounded up and taken to Byss by the Sith Lord-turned-Emperor for conversion training. Those who would not convert to the dark side were killed, while many did in fact pledge loyalty to the Sith.

When the Order was reestablished following the Galactic Civil War's conclusion, Grand Master Luke Skywalker opted not to rebuild the Corps; instead using information gathered from the ancient text, The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force, to blend its philosophies with that of the entire Order."

(Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Service_Corps)

Thank you so much!

I was having some thoughts along the lines of the jedi use of the force. On another thread there was talk of whether Rey already has use of the force. It went on to mention that while being "tortured" by Kylo Ren he left "the door" open and that is how she so quickly gained the use of "the jedi mind trick". Along those lines is it possible that while the Emperor was using Force Lightening on Luke he got access to some form of it which he was later able to access?
I've never read anything beyond the movie universe so cannot comment on how Plo Kloon was able to use a similar thing

Here's the jedi version of Sith Lightning: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment .  Personally I think both versions should just be called Force Lightning; however, I also think the methods by which it is generated does differ between jedi and Sith.  

From my research, the Sith version is mostly fueled by anger and hate, although Palpatine appears to have also used the joy he found in torturing others to help fuel his.  My basis for this is both the joy he took in Lightning tossing Mace Windu out the window, and the look of almost pure glee on his face while torturing Luke.

The jedi version seems to be used mostly when under stress (as by Luke against the Yuuzhan Vong) or as a snap decision solution to a problem (as used by Plo Koon).  Neither, I think, were using it in anger or hate, nor were they using it to punish or torture.  It was simply a quick and effective method to get the job done.  

I don't think Luke picked it up from when Palpatine was using it on him for a couple of reasons.  First, I think Luke was in a bit too much pain to be doing much other than writhe in agony and beg his father to save him.  Second, if Luke did learn it from Palpatine, it was probably when he was Palaptine's apprentice after Palaptine reincarnated in his clone body.  If Rey learned it from Kylo when he was mind probing her, then it was due to their mind to mind contact.  I don't think Luke and Palpatine were ever linked that way.  It is possible that Luke did do further research into it after being subjected to it, and since he eventually did find the Great Holocron in which Plo Koon recorded his thoughts on it, it's also possible he learned it from there.  One could say that Palpatine inspired him  :o.

I actually had a thought on this over the weekend. Could lightning also be generated for feelings of excitement? Like say you're all geeked up, could you use that kind of positive emotion to generate a similar electrical current, but it wouldn't necessarily be offensive, but rather utilitarian. Like Starkiller did on Raxus Prime to power up the derelict engines.

I could see that easily, and that's one of the two main reasons I really struggle with the whole classification of powers thing.  Heck, I could even see someone with an *extreme* amount of training and discipline shocking a stopped heart back into working.

Drawing off of 'hope'?

Potentially, though admittedly it would be affected by fear as well.  But then I'm sure real-life first responders work off of that exact same duality: the hopeful belief in being able to make a difference and the adrenaline shot of energy and yes, fear, that keeps you sharp in the right dose.

This is a little off topic, but in my experience, fear is what produces adrenaline. Fear that you don't have strength or skill enough to achieve your goal. Which then leaves two choices: hope or panic.

It could be an interesting discussion about how intentional or rather how reflexive we are as beings.
Shall we take a look at the outcome of an action to justify or the motive?

Fear is a reaction - whatever comes out of fear is driven by a past experience and an assumption that it'll happen again the same way if...
Hope and panic as emotions are again automatically "produced" by the body as the necessary chemicals to feel this or that way. No control over these ones - the control (and the way of the Jedi) starts where the awareness turns up recognizing these automatic reactions within the self.

So as I understand that's where Sith and Jedi traditions part ways: first a reactive emotion appears as a feeling, then either one can say "hey, let's live up to this feeling and fulfill/amplify/unleash it" or "I sense there's a feeling arising in me so in my awareness I can decide whether I let it rule me or I rule it out".

The later is more conscious and has more choices because of the advanced control over the self, the earlier can be stronger as it's more sudden and so can have more control over the environment.
It's surely hard to be a jedi if there's a war like there have always been a war in the SW universe - destruction is inevitable and the flow of being reflexive can easily overwhelm any training and delicated self control. Like when Obi-wan was celebrating the "easy victory" in EP2 when only Yoda remined conscious about what happened wasn't a victory at all to get involved in to the Clone Wars.

That would be the reason for the extensive Jedi training, however. Their awareness of the Force and instinctive self-control should insulate them against letting their guard down.

Jedi learn to recognise their emotions, but they aren't bound to act on them - anger, fear, hatred... They find ways to control them. As you say, their awareness of them is key - acting on the almost subliminal anger you can experience when dealing with a difficult bureaucrat, for example, would be bad. I believe that exact example has shown up in the EU more than once :)

Within the Clone Wars, the hopelessness and needless sacrifice certainly wore down the Jedi, and at least in the (Legends) comics was the cause for several having encounters with the Dark Side. Dooku relied on those feelings when he approached Jedi in an attempt to win them over, and the Jedi recognised it - Quinlan Vos relied on it as part of his background when he went undercover against Dooku.

Yoda referred to the 'shadow of the Dark Side', or something along those lines, as clouding his ability to divine the future during the time of the Clone Wars and their buildup, when Sidious and Plagueis were bringing the goals of the Sith to fruition. While the Sith were a potent presence, and the galaxy as a whole seemed to be (to some degree) more lawless and decadent than one might expect, I wonder whether the Jedi were affected so badly by everything they were experiencing that their ability to counterbalance the growing darkness was affected. Beset by despair, fear and even hatred, surrounded by clones with an aggressive mindset and hostile and frightened civilians, and increasingly whittled down in number, the Order must have suffered as it was killed by inches.

It would be hard to remain positive and focused when so many around you are drowning and lost in their troubles. Throw the Force into the mix, and each weakened Jedi would be likely to affect (and infect) those around them, especially as they grew in number.

I think you mean latter and prior, but enough about English.

It is a misconception that the Sith are without self control. Every martial artist that ever achieved a rank above first degree white belt had to have some semblance of discipline...


Darth Maul was a consummate warrior, and would not have achieved his level of skill if he threw up his arms in a tantrum every time he got frustrated with his training regimen.

Yes the Sith (and other Dark Side users) have their bouts with "losing it" but they do not advocate it. The Sith use their emotions to draw strength and power, where the Jedi endeavor to avoid the temptation. But both utilize self control.

A tool that cannot be controlled is not useful.

Oh, I like these characters you mentioned: Vos is possibly my favourite (now I have to dig up those comics and read again, I enjoyed them very much!) and also it was great to see Mace Windu in details by the book of Ep3 how he was such a master of using the Dark Side "when needed" without turning.


Sorry, English is not my first language. Will learn from your words here.

Were the Je'daii a specific species much like the Sith were a species but the name lived on in the collective despite the lineage of its members?

Stickied this topic per the request of others - its counterpart the Sith Academy also got a sticky so make sure to visit it too.
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=28147.0

Thanks.

So, I'm curious as to whether I should answer this question, as it's directed to the jedi on the forum, but I do know the answer.  Basically, are the two knowledge threads open to anyone answering, regardless of which "side" they're on?

Yes, I was about to give my reply, but I am far more curious as to what you've found.

Given that we usually go to the same place for the answers, we probably found the same thing.

The Je'daii were not a species, but members of the Je'daii Order, which, after a few civil wars and schisms, would eventually become the jedi order.  Interestingly, the Je'daii are much closer to some Grey jedi philosophies of balance within the Force.  They acknowledged both sides of the Force, the Ashla (light side) and Bogen (Dark Side).  Each side was represented in the two moons of Tython, and any member who went too far to either side was banished to either the light or dark moon, depending on which way they went, to meditate and bring themselves back into balance.

Further history, and what eventually happened to bring about the destruction of the Je'daii, and the birth of the jedi can be found here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order .  Note that like so much else, this is no long canon, and now merely the Legend of a bygone era...

Short answer: No.

Long answer:

Tythans were the inhabitants of Tython. The original Tythans were the Force-sensitives brought to the planet in the distant Pre-Republic era by the Tho Yor ships in the First Migration. However, over the millennia, not all of their descendants were Force-sensitive, and many of the non-sensitive peoples went on to colonize other planets in the Tython system.

The following sentient species were found amongst the Tythans:

Cathar
Devaronian
Human
Iktotchi
Miraluka
Mirialan
Noghri
Selkath
Sith
Sullustan
Talid
Twi'lek
Wookiee
Zabrak

Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tythan

In the year 36,453 BBY, the Tho Yor—eight great pyramid ships that were scattered across the galaxy—called out to the inhabitants of the planets they were located on, including Ando Prime, Kashyyyk, Manaan, Ryloth, and Dathomir. Through the Force, the Tho Yor convinced the Force-sensitive sentients around them to board the starships, and the pyramid ships then departed the planets upon which they had sat for so long and set out into the galaxy. The Tho Yor then traveled the galaxy, gathering Force-sensitives of many other species, so that by the time the eight ships journeyed into the Deep Core together, they carried members of the Wookiee, Selkath, Twi'lek, Miraluka, Iktotchi, Cathar, Devaronian, Noghri, Sith, Talid, Zabrak, Mirialan, Human, Sullustan, and Krevaaki species, as well as the species later known as the Koorivar.

The eight Tho Yor traveled into the Deep Core to the planet Tython, where a ninth and far larger Tho Yor awaited them as it floated above a pinnacle of stone. The arrival of the Tho Yor was heralded by an immense Force Storm that swept over the entire planet, and the eight Tho Yor first gathered around the ninth Tho Yor before scattering themselves across the planet.

The Tho Yor Arrival, as the event came to be known, saw each Tho Yor deposit their passengers at their final destination and remain there, with some of the ships burying themselves in the landscape while others remained floating in the sky. The Force-sensitive pilgrims immediately realized that Tython was uniquely strong in the Force, and the pilgrims—known collectively as the Tythans—soon realized that they had been brought to Tython in order to study the Force and to learn to control and master the abilities it granted them.

Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order#Early_history

And for some interesting information on the Tho Yor, see here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tho_Yor

I find it interesting to note that the Sith species was among those collected by the Tho Yor.  Their criteria for species selection seems to be limited strictly to Force sensitivity.

Thanks for the info, to both.

Emotion is what I struggle with for both Sith and Jedi.  We all have them and it seems with what little knowledge I have the Jedi strive to control their emotions through meditation thus making them stronger. 
Where as the Sith use meditation to channel their emotions releasing their hatred ect. when called upon.

Seems to make the Sith a deadly advisory.  I am trying to explain this to a 5 year old so simple is always better.

thanks guys!

For the light

It has been my experience that where the Sith endeavor to dominate the Force is labeled "unnatural", the Jedi domination of their emotions is equally so. Emotions are just as natural as breathing.

The Sith make the mistake of relying purely on strong negative emotions for strength. Have you ever tried keeping your anger up for an extended period? It is exhausting. It is far simpler to cast your emotions aside, than to utilize them. I believe the path to true power lies in accepting the balance between emotion and serenity.

Logos--what you said about trying to sustain anger for a long time...IMO, therein lies the explanation to Kylo Ren literally self-harming in the middle of battle.  :(

But personally I think other emotions besides the negative ones can be strong channels of power and the Jedi, because they fear certain emotions, fear ALL of them unnecessarily.

Exactly my point. Joy, Love, Excitement are just as powerful but on the positive side of the emotional spectrum. I am quite convinced that if true love were drawn upon through the Force, life could be created, or possibly returned to an individual.

My belief is that the Force is infinite, and therefore all things are possible through it.

Ok that is a good point as well for every negative emotion there is a positive but it seems the Jedi do not seek to tap into those emotions so the counter to the Sith seems to be peace and compassion.  Do not give into the storm of emotion as it's strength is fleeting and false rather to be more like the eye of the hurricane calm...

at least from a Jedi point of view.
Am I on the right track here?  Also as a neophyte is using/ wielding the Force exhausting?  Seems like it would be. 
thanks for the discussion

The application of strength is always taxing. As I have become overly fond of asking for stupid reasons, I now have a legitimate occasion to ask....ahem...Bro, do you even lift?

Lifting obviously requires physical strength, but repeated instances (aka "reps") result in greater strength. The Jedi mistake the lure to draw power from negative emotions, as an inherent "evil" in all emotion. Emotion is chaos, and IMO, the Jedi are too overly cautious (and/or lazy) to teach their students how to properly deal with them. But the Sith are equally guilty.

I got the impression Luke was pretty worn out from his repeated, failed attempts to levitate his X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp, if you want to look at what's onscreen.

Thusly. "The Force is strong with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet." He is using his strength. I'm merely stating that the Jedi could be stronger if they used their emotions.

Luke does get tired yet... The great masters Yoda, Dooku, Bane you name em seem to wield the Force at will without getting worn like the new guys ie Luke in Empire.  
Is this because they have practiced wielding this heavy Force around?
Or is the Force kinda like Bandwidth and the Masters can open up the taps so to speak.
Both?  
Nope no "reps" here Sword forms Tai Chi thats about it.  Lots of Skiing :)
thanks guys I've ordered a few of the books here looking forward to them.
I have to admit though the more I read the more I have questions.  When I was a kid I knew exactly what the Force was now that I am over 40 I'm not so sure.

Kinda both. It's more a question of mental discipline to focus. Just watch Yoda in ATC. When he's trying to keep the pillar thing from falling on his boys, he is really concentrating. So it becomes a matter of repetition and experience that make it easier.

What do you think katas are for. The forms are developed to get your body used to moving in a specific way, so that when you are engaged in battle, all you have to think about is what move you want to perform and not how to perform it. It's called muscle memory. So as with drawing on the Force, repeated successes create mental shortcuts to get to the desired results faster and more efficiently.

After reading Heir to the Jedi (SPOILERS!!!), where Luke teaches himself moving things with the force, I think it's like muscle memory. While the Sith use emotion to tap in to the force, as Luke experiences and describes some what in HTTJ, Jedi use focus. Sith let their emotions give them outward control, and emotions eventually control them. Jedi develop self control, and focus taps in to the force. The more the Sith use emotion, the more emotions become volatile and rise up faster. The more a Jedi practices focus, the faster and deeper they are able to. Luke moves rocks and is exhausted. He is over exerted attempting his x wing. That may simply be because he, or some part of him, still believes it is different. That's why he failed. That's why he is breathing heavy. In HTTJ, he moved noodles and a spoon. That is air he is breathing, and there is a spoon, but do you think it was some exertion on Luke's body? Did it require his muscles to lift the spoon? He thought it did. A character in the book suggests Luke doesn't lift the spoon with his mind. Luke moves the force, and the force moves the spoon.

I find it amusing that it's always "emotions" with the Sith, with no specific direction.

An exceptionally happy person is experiencing strong emotions.  Is being happy evil?  Is using strong emotion for good a bad thing?  If you're jedi, the answer is yes. You must have self control at all times.

I know of examples where love and attachment lead to the dark side, but not examples where happy is used for the dark side or light side. The reason I say 'emotions' is because of the Sith code and the Jedi code. "There is no emotion, there is peace." vs "Through passion, I gain strength." I'm going more by Heir to the Jedi and Knights of the Old Republic.

Looking strictly at the original trilogy, we see how Luke's attachment to his friends caused him to risk much in Empire Strikes Back, while he didn't manage to save anyone. We see how the Emperor tried to use that attachment to create fear of losing them to push Luke to the dark side. But, if Luke had not gone after his friends and not led the group to save Han in Return of the Jedi, how could we see him as a hero? The Jedi can be happy, but they must see the big picture. It is not a self centered happiness. But, one could argue that the Jedi of the prequels are guilty of being fooled. Whether we call this the imbalance the Je'ddai feared or the dark side's manipulation may be up for interpretation. I think the line walked in the films, which makes it so iconic, is that it is meant to make the audience struggle to understand, just as real moral decisions are not so easy. We all want Luke to strike the Emperor down. Yet, for Luke to do this in anger would make him like the Emperor. We are able to see Luke as less tarnished, while still celebrating as Vader kills the Emperor, which simultaneously restores Vader to the light side, while he does what would've been a dark side act. Perhaps this is Vader finding the balance of the chosen one. Doing what must be done for peace, not to rule but to destroy evil in order to save others. In that scene, there is redemption of the impure, purity in self sacrifice, and defeating evil.

The Emperor just kept saying "your anger...your hatred..." The Emperor may have been happy while yelling "Unlimited power!" and laughing when zapping people with lightning. So, perhaps the key to force lightning is a selfish sort of happiness.   ;)

The thing is, I see Luke as exposing Yoda's fallacy...whereby repression ends up creating the fall by stigmatizing the emotions and attachments.

I just hope to heck Luke didn't somehow end up trying the "Yoda technique" on Ben.  If he did, well, let's just say I do not think that was what would have helped Ben fight his demons.

The signature I have here gives my take on the Jedi code. Plus a little Jedi/Sith logic teaser.

The nature of anger does not make it a good tool, as anger dominates us. It is a temptation. But, anger serves a purpose. I have a lot of anger. I start from a good place with good intentions and become angry at what I perceive as injustice. Anger has a function in a person as a motivation, but it does not make one stronger. It makes one feel stronger. It makes one certain in one's self and one's strength, but it must be understood in order to make right decisions, or it blinds us. Arguably, anger is not called upon, but rather anger pushes us to act. Anger and sadness are similar in many ways. Anger is what we feel when we are unhappy with things and fight to change them. Sadness is what we feel when we are unhappy with things and don't believe we can change them. Fear is when we think things will become or remain what we are unhappy with. If we use anger for motivation, what motivation have we missed while reveling in our anger? What solutions to our problem have we missed while trying to force people or things to our will?

For 900 years, Yoda had experiences and witnessed Jedi succeed and fail. In that time, he trained Dooku, who fell. He trained Qui Gon, who died and never quite finished training Obi Wan, who trained Anakin, who Yoda didn't want trained. Anakin killed Dooku, replacing him to receive training from Palpatine. Yoda failed to stop Palpatine and ran. Anakin's forbidden son, Luke, was trained by Obi Wan, then Yoda, who didn't want to train him. Luke converted Anakin, who killed Palpatine. Somewhere in there, no code is absolutely fitting when applied absolutely.

I was always confused why Luke couldn't let go his anger, but kill the Emperor anyway to save people. Instead of throwing his saber away, after cutting off Vader's hand, why not kill the Emperor then? Just do it for the right reason. I feel that moment in the story was about placing a higher goal above our desires. An ideal.

Heir to the Jedi makes it seem as if force capable people have an added temptation involved with anger. Imagine you could use some extra part of your brain, but it made you potentially psychotic. The Jedi code is like a protection against the risks inherent to using the force. Leia is very angry, but she's untrained, though force capable. She figuratively burns holes in peoples heads with her eyes now. Imagine if she got training and could actually do it.

I don't buy into this whole "Sith rely on their emotions" bit. I do think that they draw on their emotions to add strength to their Force abilities, but in instances where a basic Force application is used is it really necessary to draw upon the Dark Side specifically. For instance, drawing a lightsaber into your hand.


The concept of Sith Lightning has been explained to me as a manifestation of one's hatred. And honestly, who doesn't take a little satisfaction from smiting one's hated enemy? >:D But there have also been cases when Jedi have produced green lightning. Supposedly being a manifestation of justice (blah blah blah). Is one's hatred of evil any less hateful than the hatred of a person? Hate is hate, and haters gonna hate.


I believe Luke may have been the foretold "balance to the Force." Vader was the catalyst to eradicate both the Jedi and the Sith, leaving Luke in somewhat of a Grey area. He doesn't follow the Dark side, but he also doesn't suppress his emotions. But considering all the goof ball stuff they threw into TFA, who knows how they are going to spin Luke.


Any weapon is merely a tool. A sword can be used to defend just as capably as it is used to attack. If one is not qualified to use such a tool, then untold damage can be wrought. I think you are confusing anger with rage. Rage is blinding, and uncontrollable. Anger most certainly makes one stronger. It generates adrenaline, which then causes you to focus on your objective.


I think Luke was a bit clueless as to the extent of the Emperor's power. If he were at a point when he could sense the Force within people, he would've have been able to tell that Leia was Force sensitive as well, without the powwow with Obi-wan.

Can someone help settle this argument?

Throwing our sabers will risk damaging them and void the warranty, I think.

We see examples in the stories, games and films of Jedi and Sith throwing sabers with the force.

If the argument is about defense, it's spelled with an s.

If it's about Yoda's statement "never for attack", Yoda is attempting to convey Jedi theory, goals and intentions. As seen in story lines time and again, anger has an influence on one's use of the force that becomes tempting and clouds one's mind, as seen when Anakin turns on the very woman he loved enough to kill younglings. One could surmise that Yoda wants Luke to use the force for defense, and never use anger and aggression with the force, as that would tempt Luke toward the dark side like his father before him. I suspect Yoda is being extra restrictive/cautious to protect Luke from temptation.

There is no claim that even Yoda represents perfection. Semantics without context will make things more confusing. Are you trying to understand the story or argue with it? You try putting 900 years of understanding into several irrefutable sentences for a puppet.

Or, think of it as a cornerstone of any martial arts program/style. It is used ti defend yourself, but never to initiate the attack. It's implied in Yoda's statement, but it's easily understood and accepted by the practitioners. After all, the point in training to whoop some tail, if you're just going to take a beating, roll over, and die? Think of Mr. Miyagi and his teachings to Daniel, "This not tournament. This for real." He's telling him that if he doesn't fight well, he's going to die. Fighting well includes offense, too.

As far as Yoda's actions go, think of all the times we saw him fight or draw his saber in the movies. Against Dooku, he absorbed, repelled, and prevented all of his Force attacks before mounting his own offensive. Against the clone troopers on Kashyyyk, he drew his saber after sensing both the death of thousands of jedi and the clones drawing their weapons first. Against the clones at the temple, he had to fight his way in. While we don't see the initation of the fight, it's safe to say he felt threatened and acted accordingly, considering there were so many troops standing guard. Not to mention, he was trying to save what was left of the Order. Finally, against Sidious, his actions mirrored those of his fight against Dooku.

In what we see of him, in the movies at least, he lived up to the ideals he taught.

To say he was a liar for attacking those who attacked him first is not only unfair, it's entirely inaccurate. I'm not saying there weren't failures among jedi concerning the idea of "defense, never attack," because they are fallible beings after all (think of Luke in the cave, or on the Death Star), but they can attack after being attacked without violating the philosophy.

My question lies in that he preaches that a Jedi never uses the Force for "attack". Not that they aren't allowed to attack. But I would assume that this philosophy would be a restriction of how they are allowed to attack.

Saber throws (or senate balconies ;))
Blaster deflection back to the source
Even the Force augmented movements of styles like Ataru.

Would classify as using the Force to attack, regardless of who struck first.

But when in the case of Yoda versus Dooku, yes Yoda deflected the lightning away, or absorbed it. But I seem to recall Yoda reflecting at least one blast back at Dooku. Unless using an opponent's attack against him does not count as an actual attack.

Again, go back to my original point of not using it to initiate the attack. That's something that is drilled into anyone who studies a quality martial arts program. If he were to initiate the attack, then he risks falling to the dark side. Early on, this point would probably be explained at sufficient depth for Luke to understand, but then a gentle reminder of, "...never for attack," is all the student needs at that point in the training. I mean, if the jedi couldn't use the Force for attack, in the strictest sense that you refer to, they couldn't even attack with a lightsaber in any way, could they?

Ask Noctis this question. 

I don't know...the whole thing just kind of rubs me wrong with the mind set that they are trying to portray the Jedi as having. Because if you use the Force to counter attack, that would, in essence, be relying on "quick & easy" power, which is often the result of fear. And we all know Yoda's take on fear.

So then a boxer should fight with one hand tied behind his back? "For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is." Why would they not use the Force in combat? Should they throw down their lightsabers, too? Should the stormtroopers not use their blasters? Should Navy SEALs use BB guns? Should Obi-Wan have just let go and not used the Force jump against Maul? When you fight for keeps, you use everything at your disposal, especially that which you have trained to use.

To say they are using it out of fear is a bit of a stretch. It could easily be used to level the playi g field when horribly outnumbered. It could be used to end a fight quickly. The last real fight I was in ended with a very quick armbar and wrist lock against the other guy, and I wasn't afraid. I just wanted to end it quickly, and I relied on my training and skill set, not fear, to do so.

I see that we're going to disagree all day on this, and that's fine. We just see it 2 different ways. Your way, and the right way.  ;)

Wow this going way further than I had intended.

A) We're talking about Jedi ethos. Stormtroopers are bad guys. Seals aren't even part of that universe. And boxers are dogs; they fight with their mouths. ;)

B) Yes Kenobi used the Force to propel himself over Maul and call the saber to him. But these are merely strategic advantages, not offensive. The attack came from his own strength and skill to swing a saber through his opponent. His Force skills were probably enough to activate and levitate the saber through Maul's back while it was turned, but he chose the high road to engage his enemy face to face.

My personal beliefs do not dictate that you are not allowed to use what weapons you possess in a fight. I.E. If the US truly wanted to end ISIS, we have a nuclear stock pile that we've been sitting on since the Cold War, and a fraction of it would be more than enough to turn ISIS-land into a sheet of glass. But doing so would label us "bad guys" in world society, even though we used our strength to "defend" our interests.

Apologies if that last was a bit on the extreme.

No apologies needed. Like I said, we're going to see it differently, and that's ok. I knew it when we started it.

And I agree, I think some occasional nukes would serve as a reminder of the the big boy on the block is.  ;)

many thanks.

For...??

Hey all, am I correct in saying that in current canon there are no writing on the Jedi before TPM?  Thus Jedi vs Sith, The Path of the Jedi, and others could be rendered obsolete and contradictory at any moment form Kathleen Kennedy and crew?  Are all the Teachings(books comics video games) from before TPM just fading into legends?  I don't foresee a change to the Jedi or Sith Codes but it makes it really hard to answer questions from my kid about what was Yoda like when he was little,  What happened to Luke after ROTJ?  Did he start a new temple?  How did his Jedi order differ from the ones before.  Gotta imagine the wide eyed wonder and the little girls voice when reading these questions.  I don't know if there are answers to these questions I've looked all over the Wooki and can't find a thing. 
cheers y'all and happy weekend.

They're already all non-canon.  Everything.  All of it.  Anything written prior to the Disney acquisition is non-canon. Rebels and The Clone Wars series are still canon.

Disney has stated that Episodes 1-6, Rebels and the Clone Wars are canon. There are quite a few books and comics recently that are under Disney's canon.

But, yes, KOTOR and Darth Plagueis is up for the chopping block. Things stated can be utilized when Disney want's to, but imagine those stories are a legend or myth, where details can be changed. Powers, concepts, codes and characters can be referenced, if Disney's writers want to, but they aren't going to let those stories limit them.

X-men gets to do what they want and excuse incontinuity by saying Wolverine's time travel changed things.

Justice League isn't really sticking with comic versions of things.

Star Wars by Disney only has to keep up with the main popular film story and anything they want to do. 30 years of books wiped out for ease of continuity moving forward.

Ahh well bit of waiting to see what makes the cut so to speak.  Being new to books ect... I find the Legends to be a bit of a mess.  Almost forgot look what I found on the Wookilpedia today.  Ahh if only I could use the force.
https://www.inverse.com/article/9354-could-quantum-entanglement-explain-the-force

cheers all

However, I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that that these reference materials will be drawn upon for inspiration. NTM, it's all we have right now, so screw Disney.

...is how I feel.

TPA was fun and sparked the imagination, but lacked idealism. Some of the things they did with original characters didn't fit what we already know about them, regardless of time passed. The only way I can rectify the numbness with which I left the theater is to call it fan fiction, which it is. Original artists were not involved in the storyline. It's fan fiction from fans hired by a corporation that purchased rights to images and story concepts.

Agreed. Instead of putting in the due diligence to properly prune the existing EU to establish a more coherent timeline, they recklessly purged everything that wasn't mass distributed to the general public, and assigned the retcon to a bunch of idiots that tried too hard to be edgy and failed miserably because they didn't consult the true history of that universe.

It is early yet in the reconstruction of the lore process.  And several of the same people are involved.   it took a decade or two to establish a lot of what we considered fact for the Jedi and Sith and universe in general.   It will take until the end of Episode IX to refresh all that since they want to keep the main line's writer's options open.  After the main line in don't the new EU will did as much as it can into the past to fill in the gaps left behind in the lore.

Rebels is dipping into the old EU lore bit by bit anyway, and I expect them to push it for Season Three.

Depa Billaba: As Disney is saying she trained Caleb Dume/Kanan Jarrus, and she died in Order 66, I'm guessing they are saying Mace Windu's story Shatterpoint never happened. But, what of Obi Wan's seat on the council? It was her seat that opened for Obi Wan when she fell at Haruun Kal. She's on the council in Phantom Menace.

A Disney comic reveals Depa waking when Kanan sees her in the tank. Obi welcomes her back to the council. Pickin' those cherries for their version of the story. 

This is why Disney's story sucks.

What are so many Sith doing on this thread?

Attempting to anger Jedi and turn them to the dark side, of course.  ;)

Read the original post.

Gotcha.

I think in Vortex, a Sith used the Force to make a duplicate of himself in a fight. If anyone else has read that and knows, what is that called? I've been searching without luck. Thank you.

Doppelgänger, or Similfuturus, was a Force power that allowed a user to create a perfect illusion of him- or herself through the Force. The ability could also be used to duplicate objects that were visually indistinguishable from the real item.

More information can be found here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Doppleg%C3%A4nger

A fairly comprehensive list of Force abilities and powers can be found here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_power/Legends

Thank you!!

Abeloth used the White Current to make illusions against many Sith to distract them. Later, a Sith used either this Force Phantom or Force Projection, I think. Perhaps I'm mistaken. It's getting a little too DragonBallZ when the powers are done this way. Phantom Jutsu!  ;)

Thanks. I hadn't come across this ability before, but it seems highly plausible along the lines of Force concealment. If the Force could be used to visually hide something, it would make sense that it could also be used to project illusions.

If memory serves, in the Book of the Sith, similar abilities/sorceries are described in which illusion is used to manifest an opponent's deepest fears in order to cripple them in battle or worse drive them insane.

Hi all,

Darth Zannah used such Force Illusions/alchemy against Darth Bane in their final encounter (Dynasty of Evil). Also I think I have read somewhere that Halagad Ventor used Dark Side illusions to scare off visitors to the planet Trinta on which he was hiding while in exile.
I am not sure these accounts are canon anymore but I thought I would bring them to your attention in case.

Zannah was actually quite adept in the art of Sith Sorcery. She utilized it several times as an adult in the Bane trilogy.

Probably not. :'(

Thanks, I just thought the example during Zannah's battle with Bane was well described. There was also a description of the Jedi Combat Meditation technique being used to empower a Jedi's companions in battle.

Yes, this was utilized in the final battle in Rule of Two. The Jedi in question was eventually thwarted in his endeavor to bolster his companions. However, he was able to raise a Force shield around Bane, before the Sith Lord could unleash a torrent of lightning among the small group of Jedi. The energy storm contained within the shield resulted in the death of Bane's orbalisk armor, and nearly killed him as well.

That fight was awesome.

Well, so was the rest of the trilogy.

Watching TCW, I came across the arc where Cad Bane was contracted to steal a holocron to find Force sensitive children. During the arc title "Keeper of the Kyber Crystal" is used. I was under the impression that a Kyber crystal was the source of the blade of a lightsaber. But the title the Kyber Crystal infers that the crystal is singular in nature, and used like a miniature holocron, similar to a data disk that could only be read using a holocron.

So which is it?

In the EU that I know, kyber crystals were the usual type of crystal that is used for focusing energy in a lightsaber similar to a blaster, but the energy is recycled inside of a field that keeps the beam a finite length. Other things could be used as focusing crystals in lightsabers. It's all washed away as non-canon.

In this Disney canon, someone said the kyber crystals are the only crystals. They are tuned or linked to the force in some way. They 'sing' to a specific individual when a Jedi is sent to Ilum to find a cystal for their saber. A dark side user steals the crystal from a Jedi and does dark side evils to the crystal, which turns it red. Ahsoka got her crystals from a dark sider she defeated. The crystal was purified/repaired, and it turned white for her. http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Ahsoka

I can't know, but I think 'The keeper of the kyber crystal' is a cartoon episode title with no added clues. They want to sound like 'The way of the sword' or something. Not all swords are one.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kyber_memory_crystal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kyber_memory_crystal)

This article may help.  Especially this part:

"The two components were kept separate; the holocron was stored within the Holocron Chamber of the well-protected Jedi Temple on Coruscant, while the crystal itself remained in the care of a Rodian Jedi Master named Bolla Ropal."

So, it's not a kyber crystal for a lightsaber. It's a memory crystal that is referred to as "The Kyber Crystal" as in 'the list of force able'. It's not a connection of them all. It's like a title of the most complete list available?

Perhaps, due to phonetic similarities, you're actually looking for this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kaiburr_crystal .  It wouldn't surprise me if someone along the line heard about it and misspelled it, creating two different crystal types.

Especially since, originally, there was no specific crystal type that had to be used: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_crystal

Doesn't really answer my question, but succeeded in nauseating me. Thanks.


That's a little better. But they couldn't come up with something more creative than a homophone?

From my research, OC crystals were predominantly found on Illum. Other noted crystals were Adegan, which were rarer and marked by a higher connectivity to the Force (whatever that whole mythos was about). I've never understood the common belief in Force connections with saber crystals. It was established in ESB that the weapon is simply a piece of technology. A connection to the Force is required in its construction, for both crystal selection and assembly, but not use.

The Force connection to build the saber is correct, otherwise is would not work in the first place.  After it is built it can be used by whomever, though the original builder would likely be able to use it best.

That only makes sense, as the design is based on the creator's specs of comfort and application. This would explain why the general issue sabers, temporarily used by Anakin and Obi Wan during the first Battle of Geonosis, were so blah.

The "singing" of the crystals for an individual could be considered poetic license.  If the Force is as Yoda says, everywhere, the rock, the tree, the crystals, wouldn't it likely be the Force signaling the Jedi that they should take this crystal?  Or perhaps a different take being that the Force want the Jedi to take this crystal and singles it out via "singing" or however one wants to think of it.  The Will of the Force so to speak.

I had thought about the poetic license notion. From what I know of the Jedi rites of saber crafting, crystal selection is more than just going to Illum and picking one up. It also gives rise to the question of does the Force influence your Jedi sect? Blue, green, yellow?

But the whole mess with Force alignment determining color, just turns my stomach.

It sounds like Disney canon has settled on the force guiding a padawan to find a certain crystal, which will have a color the force wills. However, dark side users twist the crystal to their will, as dark siders don't open themselves to the force, but demand their own way. This makes the crystal turn red. I think Ahsoka's white was due to cleaning it after the damage done by the dark side user. It may have originally been white before the dark sider took it. I haven't seen examples that all crystals turn color for the user. It does answer a question asked about why can't a dark sider have something other than red. (In new canon, they're all red.)

Have a barf bucket, Logos.-1

I think Disney was trying to answer questions that they inherited. For example, in TCW, there are a few episodes where younglings go to Ilum and select crystals. Certain crystals sing or shine to certain ones, while the rest can't see or hear it. What's the reasoning behind that? Also, in those episodes, all of the crystals are a pale blue, almost as if they are meant to be colorless. When they get put into sabers, the sabers are blue or green, but they all have the same colored crystal. How does that work? Why was the synthetic crystal Luke fashioned green? Was it the materials or the Force? And those are all pre-Disney canon.

Like I've said before, though, instead of saying the Force abilities, alignment, strengths, etc. of the finder and crafter determining the color and leaving it at that, they went too far and rewrote the whole thing, which just created more questions and more problems but didn't really answer all of the ones that were there before.

From my research, Luke took the time to infuse his crystal with color, that's why his is green. An "au natural" synth crystal is simply red. Luke also had a shoto that had such a crytal.

Here's a thought, the animators of TCW were either too lazy or too stupid to color the crystals. Tartikovsky managed to get it right.

(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/9e/IlumCrystalCave-CW14.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100825184600)

Why couldn't it have been that the natural crystals have visual properties similar to those of quartz, but with a light haze of color that is difficult to see, especially in poor lighting, but is easily determined when focused into a blade?
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2Xfo0yRMEqqGqUMgG2cnSexh4vkweL5jbfVdStop7ssSYuObNbA)

Just sayin'

In the original canon, Luke made a synthetic crystal. I believe he used a furnace at Obi-Wan's home.

Now, though, there is no such thing as a synthetic crystal, as I'm sure you know.

So then how did Luke get his green cryatal? Like I said, it just opens up new questions without sufficiently wrapping up the old ones.

I know this may be a "lazy" suggestion but I did read somewhere that Obi-Wan liked to modify and improve his saber over time (in real life this was used to explain the differences between the props used in the films). Possibly Kenobi had another crystal that hadn't been meditated on that Luke used.
Then there are the rumours that the green crystal came from Qui-gon's hilt which Kenobi kept after TPM but on StarWars.com it says Qui-gon's saber was later kept at the Jedi Temple in a memorial to Jinn but after Order 66 who knows.

I am probably wrong, I'm struggling to know anything for sure now.

Heir to the Jedi, Luke is given a Rodian Jedi's lightsaber (which has a purple blade), but he managed to damaged it while trying to figure out how it works.  I don't know if he kept the crystal, but that could be used as the source for his later green bladed weapon.  The color changing to reflect whatever he was meditating on as he built it.

We can guess that Ezra is using the same crystal he got on Lothal, and that the blade color changed for some reason when he built his second lightsaber.

Ahsoka's shota blade is a yellowish-green rather than green like her main blade.  The producers said they tried to push that blade as close to yellow as they could get away with at that time while still under Lucas.

If don't know why blade are certain colors.  An old theory was that Windu's blade was purple because it was a mix of red and blue to show how close to the dark side is fighting style was.   However there is the alternate explaination that the colors are an EM spectrum representation of the Force Light Side and Dark Side range.    Blue seems to be very common with Jedi with Green being rarer.  Red seems to be for all the dark siders presently (I have yet to find a dark sider in the current canon that has as lightsaber they built post-fall that is not red).  On the EM spectrum, Violet is on one end and Red is on the other, with yellow and green in the middle.  Because blue seem to be the common Jedi color, perhaps that is the standard wavelength of the Light Side.  Green is a bit darker in thought, though Anakin's blade is still blue, though more Cyan than his first one. Luke's saber is green when he is full or questions and has doubt.  We have no clue when Yoda made his lightsaber in his long, long life, or what he was like as a youth.  Ahsoka's second blade was more yellow than her first after a year or so of war and training by Anakin, both of which should have changed her outlook in life.  The Temple Guard sabers are yellow which would be about the balance point between blue and red on the EM Spectrum, perhaps to signify the scales of justice.  We've not seen an Orange saber in the current canon.  Windu's is purple.  Would that mean he could not fall to the dark side, or that he's Light Side was equal to the strongest dark sider?   The white sabers are a mix of the entire spectrum.  It is speculation at this point.

The Darksaber is still an anomaly, but we'll be seeing it again really soon in Rebels.

Luke's green crystal explained, at least the original story.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker's_lightsaber (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Luke_Skywalker's_lightsaber)

Mace's crystal.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hurrikaine_crystal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hurrikaine_crystal)

It makes sense, since the Empire made owning a lightsaber illegal, and I believe they cordoned of any planet capable of producing saber crystals. Luke would have no other option in obtaining a crystal other than forging one.

I refuse to accept this. Is Disney actually putting effort behind making Star Wars suck? It's like "all the good ideas were already used and we threw them out as "Legends", so now let's just use the worst ideas imaginable just so we can say we're original."

Theories are nice, but I'd rather have an official story. Unfortunately, some bone-head tossed it out. >:(


The crystal Ezra found on Lothal was already blue, and continued to be blue until the saber's destruction on Malachor. It was not retrieved in the exodus. Plus, why would his new crystal have gone to green, when it was made very evident that he was falling more and more to the dark side? The crystal should have been moving to red if this theory is to pan out. Plus, if Force alignment determined color, why didn't Vader's Graflex start changing to red? ô¿o Don't get me wrong, a Flex in red would look killer. (No pun intended.)

The dark saber is another sci-fi abomination concocted to drive ratings up. I've actually developed a practical theory for how a "black" saber could be created, but I sincerely doubt the writers of TCW ever came close. It would be along to lines of the black blade from TFU. Ya know, has a blade shape that makes sense?

I never read it that the color changes during use, but during meditation for construction. Or, the crystal was a different kind. But, that's out with the cleansing. Heir to the Jedi is within Disney canon. 3 amethyst kyber crystals in the rodian's saber. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Huulik's_lightsaber

I'm no fan of the Harry Potteresque 'your wand/crystal chooses you' garbage. Let me guess. Rey's crystal will be the same one or type that chose Ben/Kylo? Does she have a mark on her head from where he tried to kill her as a child, instead only resulting in memory loss when his own force energy was cast back at him because of her parent's love? I like when character traits define the story, not just things happening with characters as place holders like a little boy that had the stone all along or a teenage boy that had the wand all along. So, I liked when the Jedi had a color that reflected their influence.

If a shift towards the Dark Side is evident via the EM spectrum, than a shift from blue to green would be a shift towards the dark side (as green is closer to red than blue is).  Ezra was likely not trying to dominate his crystal, but still following Kanan's teaching for its construction.  his thoughts might have betrayed him turning it green, but he hasn't fallen completely as of yet.   As for Anakin...he's emotions might have been on a high from sleeping with Padme before heading back out to the war.  Honeymoon bliss clearing his mind a bit.

Or course that would bring up, why is Yoda's lightsaber green when he seems to have rejected the Dark Side entirely?  We have no clue when Yoda built his lightsaber, and given what we saw on his Force quest, he did at one point have a bit of a dark side in him.  How long ago that was....we don't know.

The majority of the reason we even have this explanation is to show how Ahsoka got her white lightsaber blades.  It potentially solves three problems: 1. Why are they white?  2. How could she get them if the Empire holds places like Illum?  3. How has she kept in practice over the years that she can defeat two Inquisitors with no trouble?


As for Rey, they've cleared Ben from being involved in her being left on Jakku, as Ben was still training with Luke to be a Jedi six years before TFA, while Rey has been on Jakku for at least a decade.

How often, in OC or DC, is the Force able to be applied with some level of permanence without constant focus; similar to a cast spell, it remains until it is removed?

Most mind tricks seem to stay in place.  Healing seems to continue afterwards, but this could be the body working as normal afterwards.  Most other instances of the use of the Force seems to be for specific purposes.  The Nightwitches magics seem to be more permanent, but we don't know how active Mother is with the likes of Savage's bulk or Maul's legs.   I think Maul has his legs replaced by Death Watch, so he's less magical.

Not exactly what I'm talking about, plus I have no reference to which you speak. :P

In another thread, the topic of Mace's missing hand arose. I started wondering, what if a limb were lost by means other than a saber or the would failed to cauterize? Would the Force be able to be used to "cap-off" the wound like tourniquet, but the..........

Actually scratch that. When KR snagged that blaster bolt, is it known whether he had to consciously focus on it despite not continuing the gesture associated with using the Force. He seemed to grab it, and then relaxed, as though no further effort was required.

I really thought he was holding it and then let go as he walked away. The gesture was more a reflex we do when we think about things. I've always thought the gestures were just that. Not part of the move, but helpful to or in response to the Force user's focus. Just my take on it for now.

Lightsabers usually cauterize the wound as seen on the clone trooper that have limps cut off.  So Anakin's blade should have cautarized Mace's arm.  What the Force lightning plus Palpatine ragdolling him out the window did is unclear. 

You speak of the gesture being part of the "meditation", but not fully necessary?

I have always thought of it as just easier or automatic for the characters to raise their arm to reach out to what they are doing, not essential for them to do it. Luke moved multiple stones while doing a hand stand. Yoda reached out to the X-wing. It's not necessary, it's just something we all kinda do when we think about moving things. So, the way I interpreted the TFA scene is that Kylo suddenly reacted to the blaster bolt, immediately stopping and holding the bolt and Poe in their tracks. When the Stormtroopers grab Poe, he becomes able to move again. He's taken in front of Kylo, who is now standing arms at his side while the bolt is still floating and vibrating in air. When Kylo walks away, the bolt restores movement. I thought Kylo was holding the bolt the entire time. His reaching out was just a reflex in the sudden reaction of the moment. There are examples of those who move their hands and examples of those who just sit still while moving things.

From a directing stand point, building a scene to tell a story, it makes it clear to us that this man in black is using the Force when he reaches out. We know immediately that it's him stopping the blaster bolt. Then, we see he's able to maintain focus when relaxed, like it's easy for him. The blaster moves with full potency when he walks away, because that's when he let go. That part did bug me. If I stop a baseball with the Force, it won't resume toward the catcher's glove when I let go. Would plasma maintain directionality and kinetic energy when held and released? It's just a matter of what was the writer's intention. Perhaps Kylo held the energy active. Perhaps he contained it in a field like a saber and then pushed it afterword.

I'm liking your theory. As for Kylo, it could have been equally scary for the villagers if he didn't move and the bolt just stopped.

I would have thought it would be infinitely more imposing had the bolt froze simply by him looking at it. :o

As far as the Yoda thing, I think they botched his teaching from ESB "Size matters not." Because in ATC he looked like he had to really put effort behind stopping the pillar thing from crushing his boys. he should have been easily able to snag it out of the air with one hand and oopsed it into Dooku's ship. Bada-bing, bada-bang, bada-boom....war's over.

Agreed!


That pillar wasn't exactly light. I know Dooku used it to escape, but why didn't he just kill Yoda when the pillar was falling and then leave?

Dooku knew he couldn't defeat Yoda, so that's why he had to leave. Had he attacked Yoda when he was distracted, Yoda likely would have saved himself and allowed Obi-Wan and Anakin to die. It would have been better to not have all 3 of them die, because if Dooku had finished him, he would've gone back to finish the other two. Yoda saving himself would've been the best choice in such a dilemma. It also would've meant the end for Dooku. Think back to his teachings to Luke before he left to fight Vader in ESB. Luke didn't want his friends to die, but Yoda thought Luke staying would've been better for the greater good. When looking at the big picture, sometimes saving oneself is better, and sometimes sacrificing oneself is better.

As for the weight thing, I agree that the pillar wasn't light. That's why Dooku used it. Let's also consider some other things.

In the swamp, Yoda had to close his eyes and focus very intently to lift the X-Wing. He also opened them very slowly after pulling it out, which indicates some fatigue. I don't think it was easy, even for him. His whole point, though, is, "If I can do it, at my size, so can you." And, Dooku was highly gifted at telekinesis. In fact, this was a subject Dooku wrote papers and taught on to other Jedi. I doubt he would have simply let gravity do the work. He likely directed it towards Anakin and Obi-Wan. This means that Yoda not only had to overcome the weight of the pillar, which was massive, but also Dooku's incredibly strong pull on it. We've already seen in plenty of other instances that the Force can continue to act on an object, even if the user isn't focused on it (Vader vs. Luke in Bespin, Luke vs. the guards at Jabba's palace, Kylo Ren and the laser volt, etc.). It's very similar to how Yoda had to strain to redirect the chairs being hurled at him by Palpatine when they fought in the Senate chamber. That's why I think he had to strain himself so much. Dooku's Force ability was still acting on it.

You're making good sense. One other thing, couldn't Yoda have killed Dooku when he was cracking the base of the pillar? I haven't seen it in a long time so I don't know how much time he would have had. Or if he was even trying to kill him.

If Yoda had swung the pillar the other way, he'd have hit Dooku's ship.  Not sure how much damage it would have done, but it would have at least been an attempt to stop him from escaping.

As for someone attacking the other while they were fighting with the pillar, two words.  Saber Throw.  Don't even need to get close to your opponent.  Or Dooku could have used Lightning.

For Dooku, it was a matter of pride that he'd beat Yoda with the blade. If not, he'd wait on a rematch - after all, he was at the peak of his abilities and learning more about the Dark Side every day. Yoda, on the other hand, was almost 900 years old and fading, even with his strength and experience. I wonder, had Sidious struck even 10 years before, if Yoda would have taken him in a fight...

As for Yoda, I suspect that he looked at Dooku and saw his old pupil - the first time he'd seen him since he left the Order, and not definitively a Sith, just someone who'd strayed from the Jedi path as Yoda saw it. Could he be saved? Could be be brought back from the light, or even just turned away from the dark? Yoda must have been wondering, at least at first, if it was possibe.

"SIZE MATTERS NOT." What aren't you guys getting about this. As great a command as Yoda had of the Force, that pillar should have been a breeze, regardless of mass. When I think of worthy Force challenges, I look back to that epically epic scene on Raxus Prime, when Starkiller pulled that Star Destroyer right out of the sky and put it into the ground. That's how it's done. 8)

Yoda was not expecting the pillar, so he had to quickly concentrate on it so it wouldn't fall, it was not necessarily to hard for him to do easily.

Light side, least effort possible to get the task completed.  By the time he finished, Dooku was gone.

So many holes in that, I don't have to open it up. :P

I go back to the original Clone Wars cartoon shorts, where Yoda crammed tanks and droids back into a drop shop, then send it back up into the sky, then made two more collide with each other.

I think it goes back to circumstances.  First, while size may not matter, inertia and mass do.  Yoda has to stop the pillar, then move it to a safe drop point.  Second, lifting the X-Wing while at peace is different from catching a falling pillar after combat with a very skilled force user and master of Lightersaber dueling, who was your former student. Third, Marak and Starkiller were so ridiculously over powered in those games that they shouldn't be called Star Wars, they should be "we had to overpower your character so you'd actually buy the game, please ignore how impossible all of this is continuity wise."

I think someone suggested that the older Clone Wars cartoon was more or less the propaganda version of events while the later The Clone Wars cartoon was more along the lines of what actually happened.

The 2003 version is quite over the top in a lot of places, from the ARC troopers covering a cannon with mines to blow it up rather than  just  few in a good place to cut the barrel, to the Windu's battle with thousands of super battle droids and a huge crusher war machine.   To General Grievous being unstoppable, to the coughing fit warrior he was in the later The Clone Wars (2008) that usually ran away, but could best Jedi from time to time and Clone much of the time.   But not Gungans.  The have more anti-droid weaponry than most planets or even Clone Troopers.

YES. Thank you. However, mass is part of size, and Dooku crushed the base of the pillar with relative ease. Also, what would have wrong with hitting the pillar with a focused Force push to throw it against the far wall, and then using the Force to hold Dooku's ship on the ground? At least there's consistency in the lack of imagination of the Jedi. :P

So where exactly are the "bounds" of the Force? As noted in the in-game character bio, Galen Marek was a "primal" Force wielder. He was just born with a gift. And despite being "overpowered", he still struggled, and ultimately could not defeat the Emperor. So he couldn't have been that overpowered.

I think it was mostly the director trying to find a way for Dooku to escape, so they had to make it seem like Yoda was struggling.

Meh.

Meta game thinking.....  Not a fan. 
Yet, I as well have a hard time explaining this scene.  The pillar has stumped me for a few lets just say.  Seems to me that a Jedi Master able to pass from death into the force as a Force ghost should have been strong enough in the Force to turn that moment into his advantage while saving his boys at the same time.

I know right? Maybe we can just write it off as he was tired from fighting and getting on in centuries :P and therefore wasn't as collected as he was on Dagobah, when he just plucked the X-Wing out of the swamp.

Or he's following the code of not killing an unarmed person. Doooku had withdrawn and left the fight.

Is a Sith Lord ever truly "unarmed"? ô¿o

No.

Good boy. But it was a rhetorical question. :P

But then comes the question of is anyone ever unarmed? (And don't say Vader when Obi-Wan cut off his arms and legs, because he still had one mechanical arm.)

Yes. A Jedi can be disarmed by taking their weapon away. Their ideology disallows them a means of attack, but that is not to say they are defenseless.

Just because someone defends, does not mean they are unarmed.

And of course this would also bring out the inevitable and previously discussed argument of, "See? He used the Force for attack! That's not what a Jedi is supposed to do!"

And, is a Sith ever unarmed? In that case, yes. It's no different than when Mace had Palpatine cowering and begging. Remember what Anakin said? "It's not the Jedi way." Spare me the, "Well, he did Force lightning him, so he wasn't unarmed." It's the principal of possessing a weapon other than the Force. He's no longer a combatant but a fallen/fleeing/beaten foe.

So he doesn't use the pillar to do him in, because he follows the code, and he gets raked over the coals. If he does use the pillar, he gets raked over the coals for not following the code, and he is labeled a hypocrite. Pick one so there can be a sound discussion.

By that logic, a bullet proof vest is a weapon.

It's been a while, but I believe my original thoughts were on why he didn't use the pillar to disable the ship, not attack Dooku. There's a difference. And as made evident in TCW, the Jedi don't consider disabling droids/machinery by any means necessary as "attacking". I reference Ep 1:1 Ambush (I think) in which Yoda picks up a super droid and uses its blaster to destroy its compatriots.

I can't remember the full quote Yoda says at the end of ATC, but basically the Sith are fond of deception tactics. I fully believe that Sidious knew Anakin was coming and he put on a show to both a) work Mace into a false sense of victory, and b) to cement Anakin's suspicions that the Jedi had turned against the Republic. His smile when, he resumed his attack, was proof that he was far from ever surrendering. (Thinking about all this really makes it apparent that it's time to marathon all these again. ;))

(https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/uploads/comments/66f2456424c22c13420d3f1af3b17511.gif)
^^^ He is enjoying this.


Of all the crap I give to the Jedi, I think I respect Yoda the most in the end. He is the one Jedi that comes closest to following the code to the letter.

I get that this is not history; merely a story. And like most stories there are always plot points that could have been ironed out better or had to be sacrificed in order for the narrative to continue.

I'll agree with you on the probability that Palpatine knee Anakin was coming. However, based on the dialogue between Anakin and mace, he was viewed by then to be unarmed and beaten. He should've been allowed to live.

I'll also agree that the Jedi didn't care about destroying droids, but they're machines. As much as I love R2 and K-2, they are still just machines. Jedi value lives. To your specific example, the droids Yoda was destroying were still very much combatants. As for ships, again, I think we have to draw a distinction between an attacking ship and a fleeing ship. I suppose a decent argument could be made that he could be been within the code and still used the pillar to disable the ship.

Aside from fatigue and the code, another reason he didn't do it could be perspective. I propose that he was either unaware of Dooku's movements, or he was acutely aware and didn't care.

I've been in plenty of real and tournament fights. I've also had to save someone from dying. In my fights, it's amazing how quickly I get tunnel vision. I wouldn't hear the crowd. I wouldn't be aware of where the referee was, not would I respond to spectators in real fights. When my stepdad was panicking and on the verge of drowning on a scuba dive, I didn't care about the fish or the other divers. I cared about getting him to the surface and getting his equipment squared away. Perhaps Yoda got tunnel vision, too.

Or, because of how many Jedi had just been lost, maybe he knew that the Order was in serious jeopardy and was more focused on regrouping and surviving and less focused on getting Dooku. Let him escape, and then use all of their resources to find him and get him.

Personally, I think it was a mix. He was indeed tired, he felt an obligation to honor the code (even in the shades of grey), and he felt that saving 2 Jedi was more important than killing 1 Sith.

I'm not buying this. 1 Sith would've been half of them. There's a lot more Jedi than that. I would think Yoda would have went for Dooku with that logic. Unless he believed Anakin was the Chosen One (it's been a while since I've seen them).

And of course, Anakin was needed to become Vader, so he couldn't die. ::)

All good points.

I still think he was playing Anakin like a cheap fiddle. He knew that if Anakin showed up, it was for one reason alone: to guarantee his survival so that he could him (Anakin) how to stop Padme form dying. Mace, on the other hand, knew, "disarmed" and defeated or not, this motha f@$#@ was "too dangerous to be left alive." Code be damned. And he was right. He iced 3...count 'em 3 masters in a matter of seconds. Granted they were clustered, but still.

I may be Sith, but I'm all about droid rights. And ships are not droids. Plus, the ship was being used by a very powerful and high ranking enemy.
Dooku's capture would have spared countless lives. And countless is a lot more than 2. But as I've also said, had Yoda succeeded, there wouldn't have been as much of a story. :P But even with the setback, I highly doubt the Sith plan would have been jeopardized that much. "One door closes..." and all that.

As for his focus, I think you're comparing apples and cumquats. You are a human of less than 40 years of age (I think...). He is a Force sensitive alien approaching 900 years of age, with at least 700 years of experience under his belt. One would think he knows exactly what's he's doing even in his sleep. (Maybe he was bored and thought a galactic civil war would be fun. :P)

Oohh. Arguing proportions. And I like that you brought up "the prophecy". Of all that I felt was disastrously wrong with TCW, one thing I particularly loved was at the end, the Force pretty much told Yoda that allowing Anakin to live would pretty much ensure the destruction of the Jedi.

Yes, apparently people just forgot about that time the Jedi commit genocide. The event was known as the Sith holocaust. Before the Sith Order, the Sith were a species. Back when Proto-Sabers were used, the closest thing to a modern Sith was a "dark jedi". After a battle, the dark jedi were banished to a remote planet, inhabited by the Sith. They were similar to humans, but they were sensitive to the dark side of the force (they just looked like red humans). The dark jedi taught the Sith how to use the force. Many years later, the Sith had built an empire, and their next target was the republic. It was a close battle, but the Jedi won. How did they resolve the situation? Why of course, they slaughtered every single one of them! The Jedi did not kill all of them (only 99% xD) and the sith came back many years later, but they  were defeated again.

That's why the full title is "Dark Lord of the Sith". The banished dark Jedi ruled over them as Lords. The Sith pure-bloods already had an understanding of the power of the dark side, regardless of being able to use like their new Dark Lords. The organization then evolved to incorporate Sith and non into the fold. I would refer to articles on Wookieepedia for more details, but it's full of the nonsense that drives the current BS canon.

yep

lightsyyyyde....yuuyyuuyyh

Wookiepedia has tabs for both Canon (Lucasfilm under Disney) and Legends (Old EU)

Yeah yeah.  :P I'm loathe to read about the "canon" origins of the Sith. If there even is one.

I haven't seen it but I'd bet it was someone who didn't like the color green on his/her saber so they became sith to have red. or something stupid like that.

Wrong.

aw darn. That felt pretty accurate with what Disney has going right now.

Red is merely the natural color of a synthetic crystal. End of story. >:( (You can tell I'm actively avoiding a certain thread. ;D)

That thread has quickly left the "cannon", and gone to what we think could possibly be even within the current cannon. Actually a good discussion.

I have to agree with this. I know the thread of which you speak. I don't know a ton about the EU, but the pre-Disney explanation of saber crystals was just fine with me. When I saw the new explanation of saber crystals was the first time I felt the hate you and many others feel about Disney. I held it back because I liked 7 and 8, but what they've done to the old cannon suuuuuuuuuuuuuucks.

I understand that, and I liked that explanation a lot better than the "bleeding" thing they have going right now.

I am fine with the new info on the crystals, as I've stated before.   The more mysticism the better to me.

As for Disney Canon.  The Sith were born during what was called the Hundred-Year Darkness (it is actually from the EU, just some of the finer details were stripped) When the First Rogue Jedi started amassing his following and began the Sith.  it seems the overall outline of the Sith history is still similar.  Details just need to be meshed out.  Hell, the Sacking of Courscant (where Malgus destroyed the Jedi Temple) is technically canon

Still, I feel that the current so-called crystal canon is bogus and lame.

Thank you.

(https://media.tenor.com/images/4c72829a8958247aac55d817d194117f/tenor.gif)

Exactly my thoughts as well. I can tolerate change up to a certain point and the Disney cannon with the new crystals are really dumb.

I actually agree with Tepes on this one. There has got to be a reason why only Jedi and Sith have lightsabers (I know there are exceptions, but as a general rule), and if lightsaber crystals could be made in a furnace (yes, I know it's more complicated than that, but I am proving a point), everyone in the galaxy would have one. The mysticism helps a lot IMO.

Same reason why only Jedi and Sith have holocrons. It's about precise crystal formation by utilizing the Force. The synth-crystal process takes days of meditation to produce saber quality crystals. Similar process to producing factory made (I won't call them artificial).

As for the production of sabers, only Force sensitives are capable due, again, precision assembly and crystal alignment, and micro-welds through the Force. This is why I have an issue that SWTOR movie with the twins building their first saber; they just drop it in and, boom, saber. WRONG!


It's the Force. Mysticism enough.

So your ok with the Force being utilized to create the saber, but a crystal being a conduit of the Force is too much?

I have the same problem with that as I do putting Sith and Jedi holocrons together and knowing "everything".

A light saber, albeit a complex piece of technology, is still just that: technology. It's a piece of hardware that can be used by anyone.

Anyone can Still use a Lightsaber.  As evidenced by Grevious and Cad Bane and the Cyborgs Palpatine had made to replace Vader.  But really only the Bleeding part seemed to be added under Disney.  Remember the Episode of TCW where Ahsoka took the Padawans to Ilum, they couldn't even see the Crystals until they faced their fears or failings.

I have so many issues with that arc it's not funny. I view that as the beginning of the end.

I didn't really like it either. I liked it in the '03 clone wars in episode one you see Barris Offee get a blue crystal from Ilum and all sorts of crystals are visible (including a whole lot of purple for some reason). That is what I always imagined the crystal choosing process to look like.

Exactly. I was more behind the idea that one meditated to find the "path" best suited to them; guardian, consular, sentinel, other. The Force would then guide them to the color affiliation. What always bugged me was why a consular master (Qui Gon) had a guardian padawan (Obi Wan). One would think that the most effective pairings would be like to like.

exactly, and along those lines, sometimes Jedi that seemed like they should be guardians were actually Consulars, or the other way around. Kao Cen Darach and Ven Zallow in the old republic both had green sabers but they were battlemasters of the order, which I thought would be a job held by a guardian with a blue saber. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but the two I mentioned were excellent swordsmen, whereas most Consulars weren't the best swordmen around.

See, I myself never liked the whole "Job dictated Saber color"

I don't know much about Zallow beyond him getting thoroughly pwned by Malgus. But I do concur with your assessment of Darach.....unless the "sect" system of the Order is a much younger concept, and wasn't in play during that time period.

From I read, it wasn't much a dictation, but rather done as an act of solidarity. Perhaps the reason Luke settled on a green blade was more due to Yoda training him more than Kenobi.

Zallow was Satile Shan's apprentice who became battlemaster of the order after her.

I really like that explanation of Luke's saber being green. I had always thought that that was just the color it came out to, kind of like his connection to the light let his Synthetic crystal become green instead of red.

So what happened to her? I thought she survived her encounter with Malgus.

As discussed this before....the real reason was for cinematic reasons: a green blade showed up better against the blue sky over Tatooine. :-\
As for the color infusion of the synth crystal, I was taught that he took the time to infuse color into it. The natural red of the Sith synth crystals is from "It's crystal enough to build a saber and kill some mo-fos. Who cares about the color."

this was a long while later, and she had retired from being battlemaster as Zallow was more suited for the role.

I know, it was originally going to be blue but, as you said, green showed up better. although from what I read about in "The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi", the book was from Luke's perspective as he was building his Saber in Kenobi's hut, he stumbled upon Kenobi's journal, and the crystal just happened to be green after he had finished forging it.

Satele Shan became Grandmaster of the Jedi Order and eventually retired.  She had one son (non force sensitive) with Jace Malcom...the trooper that tried to blow up Malgus.  She is also the descendant of Revan

I have a LEGO Satele. ;D One of my favorite mini-figs I own.

Just look at her..so freaking badass.... but do we get her or Mara Jade...nope.

(http://i.imgur.com/J9A485U.png) (https://imgur.com/J9A485U)

And they scream that we're sexist because we don't like how mary sue Rey is  ::)

Give us back our strong and 3D female characters

Even without the countless examples of beloved strong female characters from the EU...we haven't (just) loved Leia for 40 years because she looked great in the metal bikini.

I know that Disney has a history of creating damsels in distressed types of princesses or women; however, characters like Satele and Mara are women who are just kick ass.



They could of done more with Rey but that's what we got unfortunately.

Wow! That's harsh. Malgus killed both her master and apprentice. I'm surprised she didn't have a 'grey' arc of vendetta against him. That would have been interesting, considering that the 2 had been locked in conflict from the onset of the war.

So when did this 'Jedi don't have relationships' thing begin.

     I find this difficult to follow since SW is a predominantly American franchise, writers would normally stick with American cultural references, and there for family names would follow the father's namesake. Now the relationship to Revan through his marriage Bastilla makes sense, but there would still be no blood relation.

It was going on then.  Satele broke off her affair with Malcom not too long before their son was born because of the Jedi edict against relationships.  She is Revan's grand daughter or great grand daughter (cant remember which).  Revan and Bastilla's child was given Bastillia's last name since Revan was just..Revan.  Satele's mother was actually sent into temporary exile (Jedi Time Out) to mediate on her views since she though Jedi should marry.

Ah.

I have also requested that the aside about Disney princesses be relocated. The purpose of the academy threads was to focus on Jedi and Sith and their respective realms of the Force.

No real need.  was just a one off tangent.  delete it if you wish

I completely agree with you on every single character, Tepes.  I couldn't of said it better myself and didn't really pay attention to any of the sequels since I prefer the originals but I will give Cinderella III a view (never watched it).   Characters like Belle and Jasmine were great in my eye since they were their own and didn't try to "fit in" with anyone.  

Point for the character break downs and no apologies needed, I like hearing about people's personal take on things, characters, movies, etc.

Now I digress. (My bad about the Disney talk, back to Jedi and Sith talk)


I'm not sure but when you read the EU and play the games, there's a ton of Jedi with children and families.  I think maybe the Jedi having families or attachments were related to the original and prequel trilogies.   TFU, the Knights of the Eternal Throne, the Young Jedi series (books), or the Fallen Empire all deal with children of Jedi and Sith alike with a few characters that the parents weren't mentioned of.

I acquiesced.

As per DT's comment about it not really mattering, I just deleted them (only three).  It won't really affect your post counts at all. ;)

No worries on my end, thanks Rapine.

I don't know a thing about any of the SW expanded universe. I keep hearing about gray jedi. I would really like to know what that is.

The easiest explanation is a Jedi with varying levels of dark side tendencies. Basically not the goody-two-shoes that your standard Jedi embodies.

Post has been removed, please make posts that are relevant to the topic

Post removed.   Sephiroth, make your posts relevant and please follow the rules.  This is your warning.  Further violation will result in a ban.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Ah yes, what were we talking about?

That awesome lightsaber as seen at the top of the current page?  I must've found the other half because it looks familiar...

Greyness.  The fog of the black and white television.

Striving to a sort of neutrality or lack of involvement. Which according to chemists, making solutions, we're not part of the solvent either. :)

I have trouble with identification as a Gray Jedi. Basically, 99% of people in our mundane world fall into this category. I suppose it is more about identification of my character within the SW universe, maybe some more development on that front. Any guidance on this front would be appreciated.

What most people assume is a Grey Jedi is the "rule breaker": Qui Gon, Quinlan Vos, etc. WRONG. I would classify a true Grey to be more like Master Windu. Possessing the ability to use the Dark Side in times of utmost need without becoming reliant on it. Also, a true Grey could actually be either Jedi or Sith, and any number of shades in between. I've yet to encounter it in my research, but I believe it very possible for a Sith to...........wait for it..........lighten up. ;D

According to Lumyia, there was a Sith Lord who did no Evil...Darth Vectivus.     To me the best examples of Grey would be Ahsoka and Assajj. 

I'm not sure about Ahsoka, but I think Asajj fits that.

Ahsoka is more than willing to get her hands dirtier than the Jedi ever would (Anakin's Training)..she even said she wasn't a Jedi anymore.  I think Grey fits her well...Light Grey to be concise.

But I want to hear about her really getting dirty. Give a Force choke or something.

SWTOR did an interesting take on that as well. If you play S. Inquisitor (and I played ages ago so I dont know if this has been changed/expanded upon by expansions) and made all light-side choices, you were shown to be concerned with the Empire and its citizens first, being a Sith second. It was an interesting take because the dialogue also suggested if you take that path youre one of the few actually not just engaging in Sith politics constantly and the Empire is better for it. Fun arc.

Interesting.  In the fan-fic I'm working on for this site, I'm developing a closet Force user into a pseudo-Sith Lord after Palpatine's fall, and what' you're saying here aligns with the reasons he does things.

I think it is likely that some see Ashoka, and others like her, as "Grey Jedi" because they have left the Jedi order, sometimes path, but are not Sith.  Like there is only the two choices, and to be between them is to be a Grey Jedi.  Ashoka said she is not Jedi any longer, which, to me, means she has left the order.  Left it's stifling rules and traditions that are so rigidly adhered to that there is no adjustment for changing times and new situations.  She is still clearly a "light" side adherent, just not a member of the Jedi Order. 

Asaj, otoh, is a Night Sister, and was trained by a Sith.  She was firmly dark side, and nominally Sith.  Until she was betrayed (from a certain point of view), and rethought her ideology, and adopted a much more blended outlook.  A grey or middle way, yes, though still, not Jedi nor Sith.

I have felt for some time that the term "Grey Jedi" is problematic in that it lumps all those in with the Jedi, which is an order, not the only way to follow the light, and it dismisses less dark Sith.  It is also lacking because it is not cannon, though the other problem is there isn't much cannon to describe Jedi/Sith style force users that are in the middle and not a part of either group.  It's entirely fan made.  Not that I have a problem at all with fan made additions to lore, so long as it's well thought out and fits in rationally.

So why not come up with a different term?  A generic one perhaps.  As well, why not more groups that follow something more of a middle way, as many on this forum have done in the fiction section?

Not necessarily. A Dark Jedi is not Sith, but is certainly not considered Grey.

Pablo Hidalgo has said the Term Grey Jedi is wrong and that it is just Grey.  As the Bendu said "The Light, the Dark and the Grey."    A lot of things seemed to point towards them exploring this more in the new Canon, but as of yet they have not.   But the Idea of Grey Jedi wasn't fan made, it was used in games and manuals with no clear definition to it.

Within the old EU there were multiple groups that did follow this path:  The Voss Mystics, The Jensaarai and The Imperial Knights to be exact.

You think those game designers WEREN'T fans?  ;)

Who the hell is Pablo?

But yes: Grey implies use of both Light and Dark Sides.

Pablo Hidalgo. BIG wig at LucasArts and responsible for good chunk of pre-disney SW lore and backstory.

He is the man who should be on the top of your S**t list.  Pablo Hidalgo is the head of the Lucasfilm Story Group, he is the one who says what is canon and what is not.  He's actually worked for Lucasfilm   since right before the prequels came out and is the one (along with Leland Che who also still works there) who gave us the different levels of canon ( G, T, C, S Etc.) before the dark times.

It seems like a lot of semantics over Gray Jedi.  The Wookipedia seems to have a lot to say on the subject.  Pablo not withstanding.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

I can certainly see an inclination to call somehone who's left the Jedi order or drifted to murkier waters (and thus WAS a Jedi)  a "Gray Jedi"

It even makes sense to meet somebody who's got force powers, seems Jedi-like, but not quite wearing team colors a Gray Jedi.  Maybe not correct, but it's a point of reference.

That article seems to cover that.

Also, calling somebody a "Force User" is lame. So Jedi gets tacked onto the end.

Semantics are important to how we view things and the pictures we paint with words.  Using the term "Jedi" denotes being part of/associated with the Jedi Order, other than fallen/dark, as that denoted a fall/turn fully from it.  Ashoka said she isn't a Jedi, not any more.  Not that she's a grey/gray Jedi.  Force user is too generic and broad.  Grey/Gray by itself is good, but without context doesn't denote Jedi/Sith like entity.  Lord is a bit self important, perhaps.  Knight might work, as all in universe examples of anyone using the term is a Jedi/Sith like force wielder, iirc.  It also, though, has some connotations of specifically warrior/protector... 

Ok. Forget Pedro. VOTE FOR PABLO! We need to nix Cersei Kennedy and put a good man on the Iron Throne of LucasFilm.

Levels of canon? I'm confused. Do I hate him or love him?

---

Thanks, janx. That was informative.


I think the term "Grey Jedi" would have been coined by the common folk of the galaxy to describe Force users that didn't adhere to the Jedi ideals, mostly because Jedi were the most common example of individuals using the Force. Kind of like how certain regions refer to all soda pops as Coke, or face tissue as Kleenex.

I agree, it's a vernacular branding, I just feel like as such, it doesn't properly describe things, when we aren't just talking familiarly.  It allows for issues like, "well Ashoka isn't a Jedi anymore, so she's Grey Jedi, and Asaj isn't Sith any more, so she's Grey Jedi."  These two are quite different.

When Lucas was in charge he was the man who made sure the fans and George were happy:  he helped create the canon levels:

G-canon is George Lucas canon: Considered absolute canon, it includes Episodes I–VI (the most recently released versions) and the upcoming Episodes VII–IX feature films, the animated film, and any statements by George Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public).
 (...)

T-canon is Television canon:refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels.
 (...)

C-canon is Continuity canon: consisting of materials from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars.
 (...)

S-canon is Secondary canon: covering the same medium as C-canon, it is immediately superseded by anything in higher levels of canon in any place where two elements contradict each other.
 (...)

N-canon is Non-canon: (...) anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. Any published material that contradicts things established in G-canon and T-canon is considered N-canon.


Basically this came about because of things Lucas put in the Prequels that were contradicting things in the EU.  This was their way of appeasing fans.  But since KK took the helm he has jumped on the revision train.

 

I deem them Grey not just because they left their respective orders, but their ideals.  Both are willing to enter situations their respective training would disallow.  Ahsoka will rush in to save a village even if it isn't "her fight" unlike a Jedi (Similar to the Clone Wars episode that was homage to The Seven Samurai) and Ventress will save someone...just with a sneer.  She even sacrificed herself to save the Jedi she was in Love with. 

1) What is the (...) mean?

2) KILL HIM!!  TR8R! Pedro would never have allowed this to happen.

Yoda is a Green Jedi of the Elf Species. And Asoka is fully on the Love side of the Force. Don't get too caught up in labels and definitions. Let the Force flow through you, let it become your only Self, your Only Love forever, your only identity, then you will realize that you are the Force forever, and that the True Goal of the Jedi and anyone who uses the Force is to make all beings members of it's Energy. Do Nothing But Love Everyone Fully Forever.

I'm fairly sure that this has been asked and answered many many times, but as for as lightsabers, the 'blade' itself has no weight correct? That would make training an interesting venture...

As my colleague Darth Tepes explained to me, the blade is made of plasma contained within an energy field. Plasma by its definition is "super-heated air". Air has mass, despite being minuscule. A Jedi/Sith has the ability to perceive this mass through the Force, allowing them to deftly wield a lightsaber.

It's been a long time since I've seen the Rebels episode but unless my memory fails me Sabine did mention that the Darksaber was "heavier than she thought it would be" or something along those lines. That would seem to indicate that it did have somewhat substantial weight, plus it's Canon and I think the only time it's mentioned that I know of.

Edit: I love Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1hZsB6CyXY# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1hZsB6CyXY#)

Is there a source for the blade being plasma specifically? I was always under the impression that it was a "force energy" IE space magic blade. If it was normal plasma one could feasibly create a lightsaber purely from blaster components with no crystal or force required. This might be a new canon/old canon thing I'm just not sure off-hand.

BOOOOOO

This is explanation total garbage. (Not your fault)


Plasma blade citation: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lightsaber/Legends (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Lightsaber/Legends)


Back before TCW began its campaign to completely ruin crystal lore, lightsabers were nothing more than hardware. ANYONE could use them, just not anyone could use them well.

The Force influence needed to create a saber came from the ability to perform micro-welds inside a ridiculously small and cramped space, from the inside of an enclosed body. Think of it like performing surgery without cutting open the skin.

Apparently both canons are filled with shark-jumping within saber/crystal lore in vain attempts to be edgy.

Hmm. Fair enough. I enjoy the more fantasy based explanations but yeah, both seem to have issues.

I think it's always been a kind of odd relationship between the mystical Force and physical hardware that makes a saber tick, but as mentioned a non-Force user would simply not have the same connection as a Jedi would. Since the Samurai were a partial inspiration for Lucas's Jedi I think the analogy works. To anybody else, a Katana is just a sword. Sharp, well made, but just a sword. To a Samurai his Katana is everything, it's  a symbol of commitment and honor and the weapon is truly his life (sound familiar?)

They kind of touched on this in Clone Wars with the whole Kyber crystal choosing its Jedi and such. Even though it may in fact be a metal tube that can emit plasma it's something much deeper.

No arguments. Except, that unlike the samurai having a katana forged by a smith, the Jedi each forge their own saber. One aspect of that wretched TCW arc, when the kids make their sabers, Gungi is asked to envision the "perfect" saber in his hands. Size, materials, configuration, blade length/breadth; all these make a saber personal. Creating something gives a special bond between creator and creation.

I just think that it would have been a better canon for the FORCE to simply guide the Jedi to the crystal that will best meet their needs. Still mystical, but far less dependent on the rocks.

To be specific the Lightsaber blade is a Plasma "loop", Interestingly enough (in old canon) The Sith were responsible for making Lightsabers better.   In the Old Canon more than a few Jedi cobbled their Lightsabers out of "scrap".  Notably Master Coran Horn.  As my Cohort Logos said the reason no one else could build a saber was because of internal workings having to be done using the Force (an explanation I never fully bought).  But it wasn't just welds, it was also shifting the Crystal (or crystals if it was a dual phase saber) to the right position.

Thank you for the greater description.

Exactly. 8) Even in the Legends article about crystals, they were saying that the crystal was the power source of the saber. This is bull considering that it completely usurps the idea of the proto-saber. For those that don't know, proto-sabers had a belt-worn power supply that powered the saber via a cable. The Sith revised this by implementing smaller power cells contained within the body of the hilt, allowing for greater versatility and range of motion.

Also, beyond just the welds and precise crystal placement, the builder had to be able to make sure every component pertaining to blade projection was perfectly aligned.

Since a lightsaber is plasma held within an energy containment field (energy shield), the collision of the lightsaber blades would then be from the containment field... Also makes sense why they're able to deflect blaster bolts... I'm just delving as deep as I can into the physics of it for funsies.

Energy DEFLECTS energy. Blasters are a perfect example. Shields are another. That's why, in certain scenarios, projectile (physical) weapons like missiles and torpedoes are used to circumvent shields; case in point the Death Star. This is why Kanan's saber lessons to Sabine were a steaming pile of grade A, farmers' choice bantha dung.

(https://i.imgur.com/IMHK9vq.gif)

Been a while since I watched it.... Why exactly are they poo Doo

The first thing wrong was that she said she could feel the weight, and that it was heavier than she thought it'd be. Hopefully, I missed something, as I've only seen the ep once, and she was referring to the weight of the hilt. But only a Force sensitive would be able to perceive the weight of the blade.

The second thing wrong was Kanan saying that the blades are attracted to one another. This is just a dumbass trying to write edgy new canon bs. If saber blades attracted to one another it would be like trying to sword fight with metal blades that were magnetized. You'd waste more energy pulling the blades apart for your next attack.

So do we just reject this 'new canon' as stupid because we know better or do we have to live with it? lol   One thing I feel differing directors need to do is to actually get invested into the ESTABLISHED lore for any universe that they're entering into. If they don't know it, have people or resources that do. One of the most annoying things is contradictions to set lore from a new director just because they feel like it.

I myself enjoy both the old and new canon as they approach topics much differenly, however I dont find either apporach superior/inferior. Thus i try to keep tabs on both. Thanks to Logos and Tepes for clearing up the plasma bit.

I reject it. As for your thoughts on movie making: you can sit with me. JJ seems to have been in love with the OT, but only seems to focused on dumb kitsch and nostalgia. Gareth did a pretty good job of utilizing pre-existing source material to make R1. Ron did the best job IMO because he was the only one who was an adult when the OT came out. The others weren't even teenagers. And then there's the dickhead, and that's all that needs to be said.

There are things I like and dislike about the current Crystal and Saber Lore.  I like the more mystical approach but am not 100% on its execution.  As to having someone on set making sure they don't mess up canon...they do have those.  Its called the Lucasfilm Story group.  But, while Lucas was still in charge he would many times change things and they couldn't say no to George of course.  Currently, it seems KK gives the directors Carte Blanche to do what they want.  So again, even if the story group objects..they get overruled.  Just look at the recent comment by a Lucasfilm member about Canon.



She never specified if it was the Hilt or the whole which was heavy...but I assume it would be the whole.  I haven't seen anything in Old or New canon  that would lead me to think only Force Users can feel the weight but they are the ones who can feel the whole of the blade.  The "weight" comes from the point in the hilt where the Loop happens.  It creates a "gyroscopic" sensation that allows the non force user to feel its "weight".  Indeed when you see non force users in the animated shows using them they are gripping them two handed since they are struggling to control it.   Of course this is all "Star Wars" science and has little to no basis in the real world. 

Because they're morons.

A gyroscopic effect is only generated by a substantial moving mass. Since the plasma already has negligible mass, the gyroscopic force it would exert in a loop would be negligible as well. It's a nice attempt, but still falls short. It's equivalent to holding an electrical wire and saying you could feel the difference between a live and dead circuit.

So I'm just wondering, how do Jedi clear their minds and center themselves in the force? Do we know other than a broad explanation like meditation? Whats the mental process?

Most likely it's just meditation. But being ADHD my mind is never clear.

if your trying to "simply " clear your mind thats just about practice ( one of the early ways i was taught was to stare into a candle flame then later put the candle flame just in my mind )  but in SW and this would be pure conjecture on my part, The Master would assign the padawan mental practice drills to help to connect with the force. we saw in new hope how obi wan had luke reach out and  feel the remote then once luke got a sense of that obi wan put the helmet on him. I could get all metaphorical and such but i will refrain

From what I know of RL Meditation and what has been shown in SW...I would figure its not much different.  Clearing one's mind isn't as easy as it sounds even if you don't have ADHD.  Usually there is an image or item used to focus.  Like Hesa said some use a candle.  Those rare times I do meditate I do it very differently than many.  For one I stand and I hold a sword loosely by its grip.  I stand because when I sit its hard to remain in a neutral stance because I am overweight and it affects my back...standing doesn't give me that issue.  The sword is a "conduit".   I do have anger issues and I meditate to calm.  I see the anger as energy and the law of the universe is Energy can not be created or destroyed...only moved or changed.  So my focus is moving that angry "energy" into my blade.

nice explanation sir

Just noticed this.  It would be interesting to see if there's a difference in meditation-ability for people who hear a narrative voice in their head.  It comes to great surprise of those who have this, that others don't.  The whole "clear your mind" is a lot harder when your snarky commentator is in the room with you. In fact, it sounds just like something a non-internal-monologuer would come up with and expect everybody could do because of not realizing it exists.

https://www.iflscience.com/brain/people-are-weirded-out-to-discover-that-some-people-dont-have-an-internal-monologue/ (https://www.iflscience.com/brain/people-are-weirded-out-to-discover-that-some-people-dont-have-an-internal-monologue/)

I have an internal monologue...in fact I have both.  But me and the asshole in my head (who just sounds like me but deeper) both agree on the meditation.  So my "mantra" is internal.  I worry about the physical and he takes care of the mental  (yep...sounds crazy :P).  Interesting topic though...never knew some people didn't speak to themselves.

Thanks for the memory jog. In the novelization of the Force Unleashed, Starkiller would stare into the blade of his lightsaber to meditate.

You're not crazy, I have it too. But the asshole in my head believes that everyone wants to hear what he has to say. :-\

to funny

tell me about it... lol

You know my pain?

totally lol
why do you think I was asking how Jedi achieved and maintained a clear mind, wanted to see if any of it could be applied to me lol

You on meds?

used to be on adderall xr years ago but I stopped taking everything, don't even take tylenol anymore
I drink a lot of tea now but that only helps so much

Yeah, I was on Ritalin forever. Tried some other things that didn't work. Was on Stratera at the end. After doing some reading, I opted to get clean. It's had both pros and cons. I still get easily distracted, but I'm more aware of a greater number of things. The biggest thing was getting clean seemed to open a pharmaceutical floodgate, and all the information that I had been exposed to over 30 years came rushing into focus to be analyzed and sorted; I felt myself grow smarter. I was able to read people better. I had a better handle on my emotions (not a Sith by accident or choice of bad attitude).

I have the internal monologue. One of my sisters doesn't. It is so weird trying to understand how those who don't, think. I can understand some pretty confusing stuff, but this messes me up.

Add to the mix "clear your mind of all thought"

Sister: Done.

Us: um, hang on, would your shut up already! No, not you sensei! Me! I know you are the very model of a modern major general.

I never would have even thought about people not having an internal monologue. How are they operating? They probably sleep like logs though. 

Some people can't picture things in their minds. Therefore they can't dream or at least not like most of us do =/

Like I said me and the ahole in my brain came to an understanding on mediation...but still fight about sleep.

Brain:  Pssst.  Hey.
Me:  Yea?
Brain: You're tired aren't ya?
Me: Yea.
Brain:  You took your sinus medication and acid reflux pills right?
Me: Yea....shut up.
Brain:  Yea. Ok..........Hey?
Me: What?
Brain: Remember that really embarrassing thing from 15 years ago/anger inducing comment you read/guy that pissed you off in high school etc.
Me:  Fine.  I'm up.


But I do still have images....I just narrate them.

Wow. That is exactly what trying to sleep is like for me. I’m trying to sleep and that’s when the oldest bad memories come rushing in. I hate it.

Not it.

Brain: Hey man, I'm tired.
Me: Ditto. Let's go to sleep.
Brain: I am so there. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Me: ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

My brain never shuts up or down.....I sleep maybe 3-4 hours a night

Once again, exact same here. four and a half or five hours sleep would be incredible.

I hate you. :P

Sometimes on weekends the A-Hole in my brain finally runs out of steam and I wind up sleeping for 9 hours because my body is so exhausted...but I wake up feeling like crap because I slept too long now and usually kinked my neck.  Maybe that's why I'm such a grouch. 

I hate to sound like a broken record, but once again, same. I never decide when to sleep. I either pass out while watching something, reading or playing a video game but if I say “Bed time, let’s turn everything off and go to sleep.”, it will never happen.

I am 100% certain that this is the reason that I am such a grouch. There are other contributing factors to be sure but that makes up enough of it.

Same...I could start dozing off reading a book but the moment I put it down I'm awake.  Yea  there are many factors that lead to my grouchiness..but being exhausted makes it difficult to deal with them

Out of curiosity, do either of you read? If so, do you read before bed? Often times if I cannot sleep, I will read a chapter or two of whatever I'm reading, and it helps me go to sleep. That being said, I normally don't have issues sleeping at night.

Neither does mine. It can get fuzzy from stress including lack of sleep, but it's still running. Fortunately mine learned long ago that sleep is the only it gets rest, so when the asleepiness comes a callin', I don't get any argument....most of the time.

This belongs in that other thread.

It's a double edged sword. There are other times that I can't fight the sleep, and nod off at inappropriate times.

I recommend new pillows. Weekends for me are for recouping sleep I lost throughout the week. It is not uncommon for me to get 10-12 in the Fri night to Sat morning time frame.

And YES, lack of sleep makes one very crabby. It slows mental function and the ability to process frustration.

i have woken up with the word " qwerty " on my far head

Lack of sleep is something you experience since you have kids ...

9 years, now, that I have not woken up after 7:00 AM ... because of a little tornado (or her sister before her) loudly complaining she is hungry  ;D

The little one is 4 ... maybe 2 years more and she will finally sleep more in the morning (or will be able to prepare her breakfast alone)

By the way, during WE, I often have a little 2 hours sleep early in the afternoon ...

 

I lack sleep even without kids

Lack of sleep is not fun ... I hope you will find a solution for that!!

Had you try to investigate about the reasons?

My brain.....  It never stops.  Like many in this day and age.

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I understand ...

There are medecines that may help but it is not always a good thing to take medecines ...

Sleep can be hard to achieve during the hard times we are currently experiencing.

I find it marginally amusing how many Sith wound up here of all places discussing their inability to find rest... No rest for the wicked perhaps?

The irony being I too understand this, it would take far too long to get into. But I've had years upon years of sleep issues. The one time I was terribly honest about it with a medical professional she said "are you serious, you're not messing with me or exaggerating? That's very bad." She then detailed how/why it was troublesome, negative effects, and pushed me to go see a specialist to address it or solve these issues. I did the opposite, took none of the advice except finding a sleep aid which proved effective. It was not the best decision, probably should have listened for sure. But insomnia is terrible, I can agree with that for sure. Sleep seems like a luxury at times.

But yeah, carry on with Jidai affairs as usual, don't mind me. Just passing through and learning your secrets... I mean admiring the place.

Lack of sleep is nothing to sneeze at.  My lack of sleep coupled with my high stress and bad diet recently lead to a hospital stay for A-Fib.  Getting shocked back into rhythm is not fun.

I'll bet, since high stress effects sleep and lack of sleep effects mental ability as well. Not eating or sleeping right is bad, but together oh yeah terrible for your body. Good to hear you pulled through, but certainly no joke. Hopefully things are going a bit more smoothly overall now...

Ouch...........

Tell me about it. In the last month I've lost 12lbs from stress.

1) It is wise to know the ways of ones enemies.
2) this is merely 1 of many side tracks threads inevitably take.

Holy shell, dude.

Oh yea, you were gone when it happened.  Short story: Few days before Christmas my heart began beating like a Jackhammer and wouldn't stop.  Wife rushed me to the ER.  Gave me Medication and shocked me once.  It slowed my heart but did not go back to normal rhythm.  Docs were afraid I was going into V-Fib (Heart Attack) so the sent me to a bigger Hospital with a better Cardio Unit.  Its all Hazy for a bit after that first shock.  At the next ER they preformed a Heart Cath and found not only were my arteries actually clear..but wide open.  So...I got a second shock (this is not an experience I wish to repeat).  That one got my heart back in rhythm.  I kind of came to in Recovery, then went to ICU, then my own room.  So about 2 and a half days in the Hospital.  So my heart is out of whack because I don't sleep and get highly stressed out all the time.  Unfortunately I'm a stress/anger eater so no weight  loss from stress for me..I go the opposite way.  Which of course makes things worse.

Damn. I had 3 heart attacks in early 2019. They are not very fun. I have 5 stints that failed in between the second and third attacks. Stress and lack of sleep were the main factors for me as well. My diet isn’t that great either though. I feel you, man. I know it can be difficult but try to take care of yourself.

Damn. Fortunately for me I'm a stress faster. I have 0 appetite when I'm upset.

So how’s your weight? You said you lost 12lbs in February... is it going up, or down now?

I wish...while still not a good things its a bit better than gorging yourself on food. 
Example:  I get stressed/angry > Orders X-Large Pizza with extra Pepperoni and Bacon > Scarfs the whole thing down in minutes...literally minutes > Because of the speed of how I ate, still hungry > Eat snack food and or soft drink (I'm better about the Sodas now) > Brain finally registers stomach is over full > Now miserable and uncomfortable and am kept awake all night by acid reflux > Lack of Sleep screws with body > Get Angry about it *Repeat*        Of course it goes without saying its my own brain that's the issue.

I ended up dropping a total of 20lbs in the early parts of 2021. Since becoming a dad, I think I've put on 10lbs of muscle mass.

I'm a caffeine addict who doesn't get enough sleep. Especially since starting wrestling training. I'm hoping it's starting to plunge me towards the dark, I think my master is worried.