Saber Forum

Way of the Saber => Saber Combat => Topic started by: Westmoore on March 11, 2016, 03:19:24 PM



Title: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 11, 2016, 03:19:24 PM
Hi I found little information on how to use the sabre as a staff so thought id start this thread,

I have experience in HEMA, passed my prize play in longsword and messer, this doesn't mean I'm amazing just that I understand how to freefence safely and have a concept of how to not die...

I wanted to start this so sabre staff fighters have one resource
I have started with a couple of the basic cuts...with a little added staff flare....ok I maintained the hand rotation to allow around 3 strike per 1 normal strike
Below is hopefully the video with descending horizontal and ascending strikes on both sides
This is followed by my interpretation of the longsword guards adapting them to the differing hand positions based on which blade I have put forward

comments and peoples own videos would be really appreciated hoping to do some videos of some plays possible from some of the guards at the weekend

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFGAGQO3VqE&feature=youtu.be

Let me know what you think from this temple guard in training


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Morgoth136 on March 11, 2016, 05:51:53 PM
Those are some good moves, the temple will be safer with you there. I'm definitely gunna learn from this


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 11, 2016, 06:00:55 PM
Thanks Morgoth136!! hope to see some of your moves on here soon :D


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Morgoth136 on March 11, 2016, 07:22:38 PM
im hoping to do some more fighting and ill put it up, i want to get used to a double bladed saber before i attempt to fight, my friends are pretty good so i dont want to humiliate myself or hit myself in the face. i really like your mask btw


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 11, 2016, 08:17:29 PM
The double blade has a massive advantage over single sabers
We found the single has to work twice as fast and most defences by single actually assist the double in attacking

N thank you making the full outfit but a practical version to fence ( with lightsabers)
Will start a thread on that when I get a little more time :)


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Abyss on March 11, 2016, 10:54:23 PM
I don't know if a double bladed saber has a massive advantage over single sabers. A staff may have a defensive advantage over a sword, and I've tested that with padded staff versus shinais, but you can't block with the center part of a double bladed lightsaber. Best result when you try that is two lightsabers. Worst result is you get two dead lightsabers and a blade in your face. Ooooof course that's with blades that actually cut, but ya'know, you have to act like they do...


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 11, 2016, 11:35:17 PM
True the center is of no use to block but that's not the part I've been using to block
the techniques of longsword carry through well

Hopefully when I have some videos of differing plays I can show this :D
but using a staff against a single saber there is a noticeable advantage
have you spared using a single against double lightsaber before abyss just wondered :)


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Abyss on March 11, 2016, 11:44:48 PM
Alas, I haven't sparred using a double bladed lightsaber yet. I don't own one, though I do plan on getting one when I'm able. I have, however, sparred wielding a padded bo staff against a shinai, wielded by someone with a bit more training than I. I struck him more often than he struck me, so I do agree there's an advantage there.


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 11, 2016, 11:51:28 PM
You'll love it when you get one they are very cool :D


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Abyss on March 11, 2016, 11:59:51 PM
Oh, I'm sure I will! I seem to have better intuition for staves and polearms over the shorter weapons, so I'd probably either get the yari extensions, or get a vented coupler and use that to attach a wooden extension to form a lightnaginata. Cheaper than the aluminum that's for sure.


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 12, 2016, 12:03:51 AM
Yeah I put a pike between the sentinel staff makes it feel much more like a staff....also makes it massive couple of the guys find it unwieldy but being just over 6ft it's alright...just
:D


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Abyss on March 12, 2016, 12:07:41 AM
Sounds a bit unwieldy for me, since I'm closer to five and a half than I am too six foot. But then again my naginata plan is for a weapon taller than I am.


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Vivectius on March 12, 2016, 01:26:21 AM
The double blade has a massive advantage over single sabers
We found the single has to work twice as fast and most defences by single actually assist the double in attacking

N thank you making the full outfit but a practical version to fence ( with lightsabers)
Will start a thread on that when I get a little more time :)

I look forward to seeing more.

But I also disagree that the double blade has a massive advantage.  You can only attack with one blade at a time, and while blocking one end can push the other towards you assisting the Saberstaff in an attack, there's a very limited number of angles that attack can come from.  Against a Saberstaff the most important thing to realize is that you don't need to keep track of both blades, which is what most people try to do.  You need to realize that if you know where one blade is, you automatically know where the other one is, and at any point while one is swinging towards you, the other is always moving away from you. 

While I have not sparred single Lightsaber against Saberstaff, I have sparred extensively with single bokken against bo staff, which is much more challenging, since the staff user can use the entire staff.

This issues I have with the techniques in the video are these (and these are my opinions, they are not meant to be taken as me saying you're doing it wrong or anything like that):

1) I personally hate raising my weapon much above my forehead, and I rarely raise it that high.  It's asking to at best get cut across the stomach, or at worst, be cut in half.  Or my preferred target, you'd lose a leg if you're lucky, or I'd hit what I usually aim for in your femoral artery if you're not lucky.

2) I find that crossing my arms that much, with a sword or staff is asking for trouble, since you then have to "unwind" yourself.  Now that unwinding can become attacks in their own right, but getting that twisted up is awkward at best, and at worst your opponent avoids your attack or blocks to the opposit side and locks you in place with your arms twisted.  You can try to push your way out, but there have been so many times when my opponent has tried that only to push my blade into themselves. 

3) Follow through with multiple strikes is good, but if the first strike is blocked or parried, then where do you go, since your second and third strikes are no longer possible?

I've always found it amusing that in the Star Wars universe, the Saberstaff was considered to be too much of an offensive weapon, when its greatest strengths lie in it being used defensively. While you can only attack with one blade at a time, and doing so moves the other blade away from your opponent, you can block and push/parry your opponents blade defensively, allowing you to bring the other end around as you push your opponent's blade away. In that case, your opponent's blade is moving away from you, while your other blade comes in.

As I said, I do look forward to seeing more, since there is a shortage of Saberstaff combat information, and if you're anywhere within a couple hours or so drive of me, I'd love to get together to spar and see how our experiences compare.


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Abyss on March 12, 2016, 02:06:06 AM
This conversation makes me think... Cortosis is an ore which shows up in the old expanded universe. What if a double bladed staff user integrated cortosis weave into the hilt of their staff? That would allow for the use of the center section for blade contact. Such a modification would also increase the utility of light polearms.


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 12, 2016, 10:43:28 AM
Abyss
oooo this is a great idea I've heard people saying that it would make sense to make weapons like the staff and light pikes etc from lightsaber resistant materials as they have such big targets very cool idea

Vivectius
love your view and these are the issues I hope can be addressed with proper techniques.
not arguing with anything you said just going to explain why I did some of the things you found flaws in :)

1 the high guard this was used as it's a position all the cuts can be thrown from so for cutting practice made sense but I agree the body becomes a target but knowing that hopefully some of the plays can use this....to be explored :)

2 some of the arm positions are not comfortable for defences being intercepted at the wrong point would be bad!! The intent was just to use the full range of the staff an unexpected cut could be all you need....definitely to be explored :)

3 if any of the cuts were intercepted a different line would be needed!!!strong vs strong isn't the way to go so changing the line after each cut is definitely the right shout this was just a very basic drill but I will look at drills involving changing the line after coming to each hanging :)

I will hopefully get some more done today (saber partner pending) I'll try and look at some of the points then :)
I'm always up for some extra practice I'm in England which I expect is probably a plane ride away ;)


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Vivectius on March 13, 2016, 03:25:40 AM
Sadly you are a plane ride away, although my wife has wanted to visit England again....

I look forward to seeing more videos.  I think what you're doing is great from a beginners point of view, learning the basics and uses of a double bladed saber (I visited your web page, and understand why you don't like the term "Saberstaff").

I realized that, for someone who has little or no experience either fighting with or against a double bladed saber, what you're doing works very well.  My problem is that I'm looking at it as someone who does have a lot of experience dealing with them.  So to me, someone using one against me using a single Lightsaber doesn't have a huge advantage since I know their strengths and weaknesses (which becomes an advantage for me if my opponent is over confident thinking that most people don't know how to fight against a double bladed saber).

The more I think about it, the more I think that, offensively, using a double bladed saber, you almost want your first cut to be blocked so you can bring the second blade around, moving your opponents blade away, while striking with the second.  Now I definitely need to get a coupler and put a couple of saber together to play with...


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 13, 2016, 07:29:38 AM
Thanks I really appreciate that!!!
what you described making the first cut a block is the style of plays I prefer. It looks like a strike to the opponent but is drawn short to a hanging (a guard kind of position) as they engage your blade there becomes some massive holes in their position and....you get the idea :)
once basics are down I want to look at the more complicated styles of plays unfortunately my training partner had something come up so Ive done a couple of plays as if I have a partner (never works aswell) just need to do some editing and I'll try and get them up


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Abyss on March 13, 2016, 06:36:10 PM
I'm curious, Vivectius, and always hungry for knowledge. What are some examples of weaknesses displayed by double bladed saber users which you can take advantage of?


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 14, 2016, 06:29:36 AM
Abyss sure Vivectius will give you a fuller answer but most people believe the length of the hilt makes for an 'easy' target
I agree it's a target but feel it's no more a target than the hilt of any saber
others comment on how you are more inclined to sever your own limbs due to the second blade
My unsolicited opinion is that with training and practice this is no more likely than any weapon
BUT this is what I am trying to do through the saberforum community as we build a system of fighting for this fairly unique weapon :D

Ps sure there's more weaknesses people can point out and would appreciate them being pointed out so we can overcome those :D


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Tanq on March 14, 2016, 09:27:45 PM
The hilt being a big target is more a matter of whether or not your technique presents it as a target. If you have proper understanding of threat, then it should be less of a problem than it is for someone who doesn't have the experience or the understanding.  This is true for pretty much any long arm/staff art.


The other thing I would say is to be very careful of translating techniques from weapon to weapon. Some will take to varying degrees, others will make absolutely zero sense. I have been developing saberstaff techniques based off of jo and quarterstaff techniques for the last 2 years against other weapons - some make sense, others needed modification, and some are just impractical. It's often been said that only a crazy person would wield a short staff against a sword, but various classical schools have thrived in spite of those accusations.


Also, be wary of anything said on a forum :) Test against the experienced, learn along the way.



Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 15, 2016, 05:37:38 AM
Yo sorry videos aren't there yet prioritisation issues.

Tanq really like how you put the hilt 'issue' and would love to see some of what you've put together over the last 2 year's as I'm sure your jo/quarter staff offers a different insight!!!
and thank you for the advice I thought this would be a longwinded project but one I really want to see flourish :D
Hopefully see more soon :D


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 20, 2016, 03:49:54 PM
So still been missing chances to film with somebody so here's a couple basic cutting drills first links the two high-low cuts from left to right, not winding the sabre as many times on the way up to allow for the change of stance, the second uses the first technique to allow a chain of high to low, left the right, followed by horizontal cuts left and right followed by rising cuts left and right eventually ending in the starting position able to carry on

Let me know what you guys think, this is just a cutting drill to be done solo allowing the user to get use to how the sabre moves :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7pAalcTfc0&feature=youtu.be
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_U2bacIbw4&feature=youtu.be
lets see some of YOUR techniques with the dual sabre :D


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Ascinius on March 21, 2016, 03:09:23 AM
This is awesome I have been looking for double bladed work for a while! I'd love to see more videos


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 21, 2016, 05:07:44 AM
Thanks Ascinius :D
Def be more soon and hopefully WITH a partner :D
if you or anyone have some double bladed videos or techniques or anything please put them up :D


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on March 24, 2016, 04:11:53 PM
if people are getting sick of these let me know but just a quick defend and counter drill
 attack comes at you from above meeting the blade early ideally above your own head (this can be altered for lower but at a greater measure by tiltin the sabre...just watch your own leg when passing from one side to the other)
and returning with a high strike of your own
this works well for the continuity of the exercise I prefer other counters but they don't flow back to the start quite aswell
opinions questions likes dislikes please comment :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-MVkQbuqvI&feature=youtu.be


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on April 07, 2016, 01:06:26 PM
Yo so having trouble tying down a sparing partner...this hasn't stopped me training though
I grabbed a trusty meyer square (below) and have been doing differing drills and wondered if others have used this before for staff work or if they try it to share videos or comments etc :D

(http://wiktenauer.com/images/7/76/Meyer_1570_Longsword_Segno.jpg)

I could be using this wrong but i work from the outside in so cutting from my high right to low left as 1 then low left to high right for 2 low right to high left 3 high left low right for 4 then working in a line.....
Things I've tried
1 turning the light in my left hand off
        with this i left the blade in but only cut with the blade illuminated forcing proper cuts as the second blade is present but allowed me to focus on where the cut came from
2 turning the other light off for the same effect but forcing the opposite hand to perform the cuts

3performing blocks using the sequence

4 performing blocks on odd number and counters on even number (and reversing the odds and evens)

So let me know what you think if the thread should be allowed to die let me know, ill continue working on this but ill stop posting so you don't have another useless thread being posted :D or if this has been useful load some vids of your own ask questions I may not have answers but sure we can work them out :D


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Master Seblaise on April 07, 2016, 01:45:45 PM
I am new on this forum but i do not know if there are lots of useless threads :)

I know the Meyer square from some friends but i have never use it by myself ... When i do not have sparing partner, i generally perform shadow choreographies :)

But +1 for the idea ... I will try ;)


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on April 23, 2016, 08:15:59 PM
So for tgose following the thread I keep hearing how easy it is to hit the double sabers hilt...

My question how do we move to make the hilt less easy to hit or even use the opponents attackig the hilt to the dblsabers advantage

Eager to hear idea :)


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on April 24, 2016, 01:43:26 PM
Hi all...so no one else answered yet so I had a play around with descending cuts keeping the pivot point in the front blade hopefully reducing the opponents ability to target the hilt, from above anyway...

the challenge here was not hitting yourself with the second blade....yes I do hit myself once nice and close to the camera

let me know what you guys thing positives negatives or ANYTHING double bladed sabre related :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hQ2KUC9u1o


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Jaytee on May 07, 2016, 02:16:50 AM
This conversation makes me think... Cortosis is an ore which shows up in the old expanded universe. What if a double bladed staff user integrated cortosis weave into the hilt of their staff? That would allow for the use of the center section for blade contact. Such a modification would also increase the utility of light polearms.

According to Wookieepedia, cortosis has been made canon.

There's also a material called phrik which is lightsaber resistant. There is actually a precedent for lightsaber hilts made from phrik: Darth Sidious' lightsabers. Phrik is also canon.


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Ruchalus on May 08, 2016, 01:58:28 PM
I too am working on a saberstaff, however this one is going to be a replica of the Temple Guard Pike. The hilt is 2' and each blade extends 2'. It's a bit of ways from being done though, I'm working on the internals before I get to the hilt portion. I really want to believe that the saberstaff can be viable in a duel but there seems to be a dislike for it in TPLA (and they're the ones I draw a lot of inspiration from). I want to try to replicate some way that the Temple Guards could have fought with their double bladed lightsaber pikes. One thing that's still canon is that the lightsaber pike hilts are lightsaber resistant, so perhaps the middle portion would be used for some blocking?

Anyway here are some photos of my project.

(http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae292/Will_Nottell/13173643_10208196506501872_2466666677952259441_n.jpg)
(http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae292/Will_Nottell/13151444_10208196506821880_3157343219847195784_n.jpg)
(http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae292/Will_Nottell/13119030_10208196507021885_5587493144987277533_n.jpg)
(http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae292/Will_Nottell/13151625_10208196507261891_918515975975565523_n.jpg)

So on a side note, when I'm watching your videos, I feel like if I were to stab your core area, it would hit. Do you have any experience with this? My only form of sword training was fencing (foil) and it seems like you expose a lot of your body by facing directly forward (then again I've never been trained in staff techniques).  Anyway, keep it up!


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on May 08, 2016, 06:54:06 PM
Jaytee
Oooo thanks for that may use that in some discussions

Ruchalus
that is AWESOME I'm currently making a temple guard costume. ...when I have time but the saber is something I've struggled to find ideas for and would love to see how this progresses
and haven't had much issue with thrusts but I'll get someone to thrust at me when we spar and let you know what happens....the hema I've done tends to use square on stances which you're right leaves you more open to thrusts so I'm sure I'll soon see how open :D
thank you for the input I love that the threads of use :)


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on May 18, 2016, 05:13:41 PM
Ruschalus thrusting wasn't a major issue but that may just be judging measure rather than the technique avoiding them...possibly something to look work on though so thank you for pointing it out!!

I put a pattern poomsae kata....what ever you wish to call it just basic movements basic guarding movements and strikes would LOVE to hear AND see someone having a go and letting us know what they think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTl9bTnOi4&feature=youtu.be


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on October 12, 2016, 02:15:26 PM
Sorry been a bit quiet I've been trying to find some patterns that can be used with the dual sabre
I've mad some modifications using a pike extension to lengthen the staff i would dare go back on my opinion and call this a sabre staff

(https://s14.postimg.org/b4ornolm9/20161012_150828.jpg)

having done so with two regular blades the monster reaches almost 3m
unfortunately due to low celeing i only have the blades attached when using it outside.
I was delighted to have such a weapon mentioned in one of the bane trilogy used in the battle of Tython
the weapon is strangely wield-able
yes the spins are slower but the reach is immense and to those who say they would aim for the hands....yes a valid attack...if you can get the shot

SO to those looking to use more kata poomse patterns etc I've found this guy doing chinese bo staff on youtube and found two of the videos very transferable.
there are minor technical edits required to ensure you don't split yourself which i will be making a video to show my versions of the below two patterns but the spin videos are useful for coordination and control

the simpler one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmy_qJ7o0uM&list=PL1KFAvN24RsxuogCuoKlv9m3JM-lZDzPT&index=3

more complex one...this took a little longer especially when it speeds up lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSrr1pY00J0&index=6&list=PL1KFAvN24RsxuogCuoKlv9m3JM-lZDzPT

to be clear these are not my videos and this is not me I believe these are useful for those wishing to advance their sabre staff techniques and abilities

Let me know what you guys think and if you get chance to play through the patterns I would love to see your videos

Westmoore


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Westmoore on October 15, 2016, 01:50:57 PM
So my attempt at the second taolu not great but you get the idea
little bit of spinning like the bo staff guy shows....big staff heavy to spin
someone asked how the quick release coupler held up so made this video
if you bother to read and watch this please comment your thought good bad or other
thanks
PS no mask as didn't want to be accused of this clown crap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca3tt7WrgAU&feature=youtu.be


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Enso Marr on November 24, 2016, 02:03:08 PM
That staff in the last video looks ridiculously long. It is half again your height! Have you considered cutting the blades down a little?

Here is me playing around with mine a week ago. Not completely combat related but I did throw in some strikes here and there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFDCxshgZcs

A short one combining a hand spin with a simple strike.
http://www.instagram.com/p/BNH74KMgpT-


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: Benji on November 26, 2016, 03:20:15 AM
So for tgose following the thread I keep hearing how easy it is to hit the double sabers hilt...

My question how do we move to make the hilt less easy to hit or even use the opponents attackig the hilt to the dblsabers advantage

Eager to hear idea :)

I want to first start off by saying that I am in no way a master. The things I am saying are strictly my opinion and conjecture that I have not had the opportunity to practice near as much as I would like. The training scenarios I have run, though, have been relatively successful.

There are a few options to minimize the ability of your opponent to strike your hilt. The first is standing mostly in profile to your opponent and presenting with one blade forward and the other held back, head turned to face them.

This not only allows you to defend with the forward blade and swing the back one around at a moments notice, but it means that to actually target the hilt your opponent has to either move around your body or wait for it to be in motion.

The other method that I like is to simply move. As they have a swing they think is going to connect with your hilt, take a step back and at the same time move to the side in sort of a pivot.  This will also let you thrust forward with the length of the hilt and make a counter if you're quick enough. It requires more agility, but it's doable.

I'll try to get pictures or video to better illustrate sometime this week.


Title: Re: sabre staff cutting dirll, guards and plays
Post by: DarthProdigal on November 17, 2020, 02:00:44 PM
Watching through those videos you posted Westmoore, it's obvious you grew more and more confident/comfortable with the weapon. Only original "weakness" in technique that I'd mention was the over head position. When directly over head, and basically behind your head. As noted later, basically just being wide open, begging for retaliation. I remember my sensei hammering in "don't over extend the action beyond it's intended purpose". I'd think it'd be better kept closer to forehead, leaving one blade angled down at a 45. Giving potential to manipulate incoming or stationary enemy blade and counter in same strike.  That said, the last video going through those Bo staff drills was pretty fluid. Enso Marr was flowing through movements remarkably well too. I see how easy it could be (or hard to overcome training) with a staff and then using a dual bladed lightsaber cut off your arm... tendency to cradle in an armpit or "blade" hitting back of your own shoulder could get embarrassing in competitive sparing. Excellent work posting ALL the videos though, exceptional job putting yourself out there for public consumption. I agree, I would like to see more collectively with double bladed sabers.  If I can get some videos to come together I will, but no promises...yet.