Saber Forum

Spoiler Alert:  I didn’t like this movie.  At all.  I was incredibly pissed off throughout the movie, asking myself “why are they doing that?” “what’s the point of this” or “why don’t they just…?” more times than I can count.  I left the movie feeling like I had just watched Revenge of the Sith again.  A movie that’s supposed to be better because it’s “darker”, but that’s long and mostly boring.

We start off with a space battle.  Cool!  This space battle involves giant bombers that drop bombs from racks like WW2 bombers, and require people to push a button on a handheld remote in order to drop them…uh…okay.  This seems a bit low-tech to be in the future of the original trilogy, but I’ll roll with it.  It also involves the bombardment hitting what appears to be a still-full base, with the announcement from the Rebels that “the last transport is away.”  So, I guess it’s just manufactured tension, but with a low body count.  Although those ships are later destroyed, so...I'm not sure what the point of that was.

What I don’t understand is why the bombers were even sent out if Poe was going against orders and going rogue, why they flew close enough to each other that a single bomber exploding took out nearly the whole fleet (if Legolas was piloting the TIE fighter that blew up the first one, Gimli would be shouting “that only counts as one!” into his headset), or why they are so hopeful if this is the entire fleet.  Seriously.  What happened to the rest of the rebel fleet?  Is this little ragtag bunch that has 1 cruiser and 3 support ships the entire rebel fleet? 

It reminded me of the show Supernatural.  I love Supernatural, but only when there’s a small problem, like a ghost or a werewolf.  They don’t have the budget for big wars, so a big war would end up being the brothers, a witch, a monster, a hunter friend, and a pair of demons against the big bad.  Like, a war between heaven and hell would end up being a 7-on-1 fight (or really, seven 1-on-1 fights).  The fleets in this movie were incredibly underwhelming if they were the entire rebellion.

So then the fleet jumps to hyperspace and is immediately again beset by the Imperials.  (Sorry, First Order).  They decide to run away at sublight speed, because they only have fuel for one more hyperspace jump, and they’d be tracked anyway.  They are out of effective range of the Imperial’s guns, but they aren’t gaining ground either.  So they just run.
This is where I got so incredibly pissed off that it soured my mood for the entire movie.  Were these 3 Star Destroyers the entire First Order fleet?  Why didn’t they have more Star Destroyers jump into hyperspace and cut off the
Rebels?  Bam, problem solved.  Now they don’t have time for any hijinks.

Before they tried to escape at sublight speed, the bridge of their lone cruiser was destroyed, and Leia sucked out into space.  She shows some skill in the Force to survive in space and fly back into the ship.  How the corridor she goes into doesn’t depressurize when she opens the door is beyond me (although this one may be chalked up to “the Force”).  There’s also a hangar explosion that Kylo Ren sets off, which leads to Poe and BB-8 being flung away (because that’s how explosions work in Hollywood).

I get that Star Wars isn’t realistic.  It has The Force, it has blasters and hyperspace and Lightsabers, it has aliens.  But even the dreaded prequels got right how deadly an explosion should be.  You’ll see this later with Finn and Rose, that there seems to be a lot of plot armor in this movie.

Anyway, Leia survives, but is in a coma.  There’s a new admiral who hates Poe and his type (or does she?), and keeps him in the dark for…reasons?  Maybe so there’s a twist later, or to keep the audience guessing, but it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

So Finn tries to escape again (because we have to undo all his character development in the last movie to have him go back through the same changes again from coward to hero), only to be caught by Rose.  She is the ship’s “behind the pipes” person, so I’m guessing mechanic?  But she’s also the security for the escape pods, and expert in computer tracking, and a pilot.  I have no idea what she is supposed to be, other than convenient for the plot.

She and Finn bond over figuring out how they were tracked through Hyperspace (look, I watch Star Trek for technobabble and philosophy.  I watch Star Wars for blasters, lightsabers, and spaceship fights.  I don’t need to know how they all work.  This was a problem with midichlorians, it was a problem with the whole discussion about the oscillator in TFA, and it’s a problem now.  “Death Star plans” was a great McGuffin in ANH because it was simple).

Can someone explain to me what was accomplished by all the screen time we spent on Finn and Rose?  That entire plot could have been cut, and it wouldn’t have had ANY effect at all on the rest of the movie.  They decide that in order to infiltrate the Star Destroyer to disable the tracker, they would need a code-breaker, so they go to find one.  They go to Rose’s home planet (of course it is), where they have slaves as horse jockeys and they’re really mean, and apparently they sold weapons to the First Order, because that’s the only way to get wealthy.

I mean, aren’t there other ways to get wealthy?  Grow up in the right family, sell slaves, sell drugs, sell weapons to people other than the First Order, piracy and grand larceny, gamble, cheat at gambling…I mean, there’s gotta be plenty of ways to make money.  They eventually end up on the Star Destroyer and fail to disable the McGuffin.  I mean, the tracker.  So they’re to be executed, but blasters are too quick a death, so instead they’re going to be decapitated with a laser axe.  Um…that’s not more painful.  That’s just more gruesome, which means more to clean up.

Anyway, the rebels decide to evacuate to an old Rebel base with cloaked ships (that aren’t really cloaked), but the code-breaker that Finn and Poe had betrayed them.  Um…how did he know about the cloaked ships?  Everyone was kept in the dark until after Finn and Rose went on their mission.  This is the only thing I can think of that makes our time spent on their mission worthwhile, and even that has a plot hole in it.  Oh, we do see Phasma “die”, but this was way too much effort just for that.

Leia has woken up, and she goes from heavily bandaged to not-even-scarred in a hurry.  The admiral who had taken over for Leia stays behind to keep the cruiser running while everyone else escapes.  She mentions how she likes Poe, which matches nothing of what she’s said about him yet.  She decides to ram the biggest Star Destroyer with the cruiser in hyperspace.  Because…that worked so well for the ships in Rogue One.  Well, it did work here, and this is what sets Finn and Rose free enough to escape to the surface in a crash landing that should have left them crippled, but of course they’re fine.

This leads me into Rey, Luke, Kylo Ren, and Emperor Snoke.  This movie had a few funny lines (including at the very beginning where Poe is asking to speak with General Hux, and when Hux responds Poe says “okay, I’ll hold”).  The best part of the whole movie is what Luke does with the lightsaber Rey hands him.  He holds it solemnly for a few seconds, then tosses it over his back and off a cliff.  Luke refuses to train Rey, because he failed to teach Ben properly.

Rey is persistent, and Luke starts to teach her.  He sees her drawn to the darkness on his island…which isn’t really clear to the audience other than Luke saying “you didn’t stop yourself.”  Rey notices that he’s cut himself off from The Force, a fact which is not true based on everything else Luke does throughout the movie.

Rey ends up in a cave that’s supposedly of the Dark Side, and starts narrating for some reason.  It doesn’t really make sense what is going on in there, but she asks about her parents and all she sees is herself. 

Throughout this, her and Kylo Ren keep seeing each other in visions.  They’re very awkward.  In one scene Kylo doesn’t have a shirt on (but he’s wearing a very high-waisted pair of pants), and Rey won’t talk to him until she’s at least suggested he put on a towel or something.  She keeps going back and forth between Kylo Ren and Luke to find out who started the fight between him and Kylo that ended up in the temple being destroyed.  Luke first says that Kylo started it, but then Kylo says Luke tried to murder him.  Turns out Luke was about to, but stopped, and it was just a huge misunderstanding.

Eventually, Rey decides that she’s felt good in Kylo, and she goes to Snoke’s ship to confront him.  Kylo brings her onboard and up to Snoke.  We learn now the identity of Rey’s parents:  they were nobodies.  We also learn nothing about Snoke before he is killed by Kylo Ren.  Rey and Kylo team up in one of the best lightsaber fights to-date.  It was action-packed, didn’t feel overly choreographed, and included some really cool moves.

Of course, Kylo hasn’t turned back to the light.  He just was tired of Snoke and wanted to be in charge.  He offers Rey a place at his side, which she refuses.  They have a Force fight over the lightsaber and in the ensuing explosion, Ren is knocked out, and Rey escapes in Snoke’s escape pod.

Back to the salt planet (I don’t even remember the name of it).  They have these really rusted up speeders that don’t even seem to have weapons, but since the First Order has landed ground troops, they go after them.  The First Order has a cannon (supposedly a Death Star cannon) which they have landed, and plan to blow up the heavy blast door the rebels are hiding behind. 

For some reason, Finn and Rose are both out there, despite Rose being a grease monkey and Finn being a glorified janitor.  Chewie (oh yeah, almost forgot he’s in this) and Rey use the Falcon to draw off all the air support, but the cannon is still ready to fire on the base.  So, Finn goes full-on hero and sacrifices himself to stop the cannon.  BUT WAIT!  Rose comes in and crashes into his speeder to keep him from committing suicide, because it’s not hate that will bring the First Order down, but love for your friends.

Well, she almost killed herself, almost killed Finn anyway, and now she let the First Order blow open the blast door.  So, instead of 1 person definitely dying to save everyone (which IS about love and doing anything for your friends), she nearly kills two people in order to screw all her friends over.  The First Order begins marching on the base, but who comes to the rescue?  Luke Skywalker, of course!

Luke stands alone against the entire First Order while the others escape to the Falcon.  I should mention, we only saw some of the TIE fighters get destroyed following the Falcon, and there had to be more in orbit.  However, Rey is able to get all the Rebels to safety.

Kylo Ren orders all of the AT-ATs to fire on Luke, and they unleash a huge barrage against him.  “Think you got him?” Hux asks.  Like a DBZ character who is just too high a power level, the dust cleared and Luke was still walking towards the Imperial line.  So Kylo Ren decided to go down and face Luke himself.  Luke gave some version of the same speech Obi-Wan gave Vader right before he died, but Luke absolutely dominated the fight until he just…stopped.  Like he was bored and was just going to let Kylo win.

However, Kylo Ren made the killing blow, and Luke was unscathed.  Then he ran Luke through with his blade, and Luke revealed himself to be a Force Projection, like a hologram.  A ha!  Gotcha!  It was all a ruse so that the Rebels could escape!  However, Luke decides then to become One with The Force, like we saw Ben Kenobi and Yoda do in the original trilogy.

My big problem with this is, there was no reason.  Ben sacrificed himself to save the mission.  If he drew out the fight, the others would be put in danger.  Yoda was simply old and dying anyway.  Luke was the most powerful I’ve ever seen him, and he seemed to have found his place in the galaxy again.  It just felt like it was done for the sake of it being done.

We end with a kid (one of the slave jockies mentioned earlier) sweeping, and being hopeful of the Rebellion.  I don’t know if he’s supposed to be important in the next installment, but something tells me he isn’t.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention.  Yoda is in this.  Yoda, as a Force Ghost, manipulates a storm into destroying the First Jedi temple and their texts.  He is uncharacteristically ambivalent towards the Jedi history, and overall was just as confusing as he always is – but for the wrong reasons.

Well, here’s all the questions I got from my text:
1.   Why didn’t the super bombers have decent controls or tactics?
2.   Was this the entire rebel fleet?
3.   Why is there so much plot armor for the main characters?
4.   Why does the new admiral keep Poe in the dark?
5.   Why did Finn become a coward again only to become a hero again?
6.   What is Rose?
7.   What was accomplished with the Finn/Rose plot?
8.   How did Finn learn to pilot a craft?
9.   How did the code-breaker know about the cloaked ships? 
10.   What was going on in the Shadow Cave?
11.   Why did Kylo Ren kill Snoke?
12.   Who was Snoke, and will we ever find out now?
13.   What was the point of having Rey’s parents be nobodies? 
14.   What happened to all the TIE fighters following the Falcon?
15.   What was the point of the planet being a salt planet?
16.   Why did Luke become one with The Force?
17.   How did Yoda control the Force?  In the originals, all the Force Ghosts could do is give advice.
18.   Why was Yoda encouraging Luke to end the Jedi?  That’s not in his nature.
19.   Is the kid at the end going to be important to the Rebellion in Episode 9?
20.   What happens to Leia in Episode 9, now that Carrie Fisher is no longer with us?

Oh man, I hope Cinema Sins has a field day with this one.  The acting is fine, for the most part.  There is some great dialog, particularly when Hux is arguing with someone, or when Rey is involved.  The film was 150 minutes long, and I feel like it could have been 115 and actually done a better job, if they completely cut Finn out of the movie.  Overall, this has been a huge disappointment.  The quality of the story is on par with that of the prequels, which weren’t strong in that regard.  There is one good action piece of Kylo + Rey vs. Red Guards, but I kept asking “What?” “Why?” or “How?” throughout the movie.

I give this one a 4/10.

To give you an idea of my opinion on previous films, here’s how I’d rate them, in my personal opinion:
ANH: 8/10
ESB: 9/10
ROTJ: 10/10 (in part because it’s the first one I ever saw)
TPM: 3/10
AotC: 2/10
RotS: 2/10
TFA: 7/10
Rogue One: 6/10

So I give this a 4/10 because it’s slightly better than the prequels, but still a huge waste of time.

If anyone wants to take a stab at my game of 20 questions, I'd love to hear your opinions.

Sure, I'll bite. Not in an effort to persuade you, but because I enjoy good conversations. For the record, I agree with some of your points, but I don't hate this movie. I think it's ok, and for me, it falls in the middle of the pack as far as SW movies.

Well, here’s all the questions I got from my text:
1.   Why didn’t the super bombers have decent controls or tactics?
It looked yo me like the bombers were trying to hit one soecific spot. Its a similar flyong pattern to what we saw in WWII when bombers lacked maneuverability lile these. A remote control is better than a button on a wall. At least it's mobile. This part of the scene could have been done better.
2.   Was this the entire rebel fleet?
No. It is one of many fleets. However, for this particular fleet, yes, that's all there is. Much like our Navy has multiple fleets deployed in different areas performing different tasks, so do the rebels, and likely the First Order. They did try to bring other rebels to help at the end, but no one came. Clearly, they have more ships.
3.   Why is there so much plot armor for the main characters?
Because that's how movies work. Die Hard, Indiana Jones, superhero movies, Star Trek. It's a Hollywood cliche.
4.   Why does the new admiral keep Poe in the dark?
Because Poe us impulsive and has shown in this movie that he will disobey orders. The grunt on the ground is not always privy to the overall battle plan and tactics.
5.   Why did Finn become a coward again only to become a hero again?
His single-minded purpose is to save Rey. That purpose is dictating all of his actions.He has always shown an inclination to not want to be a part of this. He is a Han parallel.
6.   What is Rose?
A Swiss army knife. Like Rey, but we accepted her, despite her slave status. Interesting that we don't accept Rose, despite her military training and the fact that she has a sister who is a gunner. There is at least a lot more of a base of knowledge with Rose and her abilities than we are given with Rey. Oh, right, Rey has the Force, so we accept it. Hmmmm....is this a movie issue or a fan base issue?
7.   What was accomplished with the Finn/Rose plot?
Nothing. I'll agree with you.
8.   How did Finn learn to pilot a craft?
A crash course from Rose and/or Poe. He didn't pilot it very well. And, these were more or less speeders. They weren't advanced craft. It's not like he went from nothing to being an ace pilot.
9.   How did the code-breaker know about the cloaked ships?
Because BB-8 tossed Finn a com link, Poe spilled the beans, and the code breaker heard it.  
10.   What was going on in the Shadow Cave?
A Jedi trial. Likely the trial of insight or spirit. It's strange, much like Luke's trial on Dagobah, but that's the point. It's supposed to make the person think and reflect.
11.   Why did Kylo Ren kill Snoke?
Because he is power hungry. Because that is the nature of all DS users. They kill their master to become the master. Also, Snoke had been berating him all film, and we know how good Kylo is at impulse control.
12.   Who was Snoke, and will we ever find out now?
Don't know.
13.   What was the point of having Rey’s parents be nobodies?
Not sure. I'm also. It convinced this is the full story. Remember, we still have at least one act still to go.
14.   What happened to all the TIE fighters following the Falcon?
Rey And Chewie happened.
15.   What was the point of the planet being a salt planet?
It's a cool visual, And it's one we've never had before. Are you starting to get nitpicky?
16.   Why did Luke become one with The Force?
I answered this one in the other thread.
17.   How did Yoda control the Force?  In the originals, all the Force Ghosts could do is give advice.
Because the Force ghosts have never been as powerful as Yoda. Remember, the ghosts during the OT were still a new ability. Abilities evolve.
18.   Why was Yoda encouraging Luke to end the Jedi?  That’s not in his nature.
He didn't. He reminded him to pass on what he learned. Go see it a second time and pay close attention to that dialogue.
19.   Is the kid at the end going to be important to the Rebellion in Episode 9?
Maybe. Or maybe it's Legend Luke inspiring a whole new generation from the far reaches of the galaxy like he did before.
20.   What happens to Leia in Episode 9, now that Carrie Fisher is no longer with us?
My guess is that she will die either in the crawl or on the opening scenes. The First Order will (or will have) found her and killed her. We will not see her or her death, unless we are told she is aboard a ship or on a planet. It will serve, along with Luke's death, as the Alamo moment for the rebellion.

----

Whew! I don't expect you to accept all my answers, but I think some of them were explained in the movie.

You're right, I don't accept all your answers ;)

1) Doesn't matter if it's a remote or a button, if the pilot dies, the bomber is useless.  As to the tactics, their spacing was such that a single kill wiped out almost the entire fleet.  If that's how those bombers have to fly, that's a design flaw in the bombers themselves.  Either way, it was a horrible battle plan.  I guess I see your point, but it doesn't change the fact it was a bad idea.

2) The way it's stated in the movie, this IS the rebel fleet.  There are others that are sympathetic to the cause, but that if this particular fleet is destroyed, it's the end of the rebellion.  This is both how the Rebels and the First Order talk about the importance of the battle.

2.5) I realize I missed a question.  Why didn't the First Order call in a pincer move by having more Star Destroyers use hyperspace to cut off the Rebel fleet?

3) Up until Crystal Skull, Indiana Jones didn't survive huge explosions with nary a scratch (at which point he survived a nuke and the movie was ridiculed so bad a new trope was named).  I'm not talking about situations in which the characters narrowly escape.  I'm talking about situations in which they should be physically dead and mangled because of the physics involved, but don't even have a scratch on them.  Or in the case of BB-8, you're decapitated and it doesn't matter.

4) I agree at first, but later on it seems like she's doing so out of spite, despite later remarking that she likes him.

5) Saving Rey seemed to be to be an excuse to run away, just like he was always making excuses and lies in the first movie.  He had the same look on his face as when he was telling Rey lies.  It seemed to me that his purpose was to save himself, and his excuse so he didn't look like a coward was to save Rey.

6) Rose having a sister that's a gunner has no effect on her skills.  I'm a 2nd degree black belt in Taekwondo and my sister can paint, in both cases skills the other doesn't have.  It's a movie issue, because it's not really explained who she is.  She's just a character that's thrust on us and has skills come out of nowhere, almost like Rey in TFA (and I didn't like that in TFA so in this case I'm not a hypocrite).

7) Yay!

8) In what time?

9) Ok, fair enough.  Still a very loose thread that takes us back to #7.

10) The trial on degobah made sense.  It showed Luke that he had the potential to become Vader.  This trial didn't make much sense for several reasons.
10.1 - what was even going on?
10.2 - what was the point of the "answer" to her question?
10.3 - why was she narrating it to us?  (this seems to me the only way they could even try to answer 10.1 and 10.2, because nothing else in Star Wars is narrated, aside from a few flashbacks we get in this movie)

11) I get that it's part of the Sith way.  It just seemed like a quick series of twists and "gotcha" moments in that scene.  Part of it is the fact we don't find out who Snoke is that upset me, but also that we learn Rey is a nobody.  In a 2.5 hour movie where in other parts nothing goes on that affects the overall plot, they packed a lot into this one scene

12) Dang

13) I know, but it was still...a disappointing series of reveals

14) Still, the last time we see Rey and Chewie, there's fighters chasing them, and we don't even get to see them blown up.  What's the point in padding the runtime with useless filler if you're going to skip blowing up TIE fighters?

15) The visual I'm fine with.  The fact that they had a guy pick up the dirt and go "it's salt" is what just seemed odd to me.  We could have the visual without knowing it's salt, or we could have the information presented in a less ham-fisted way.  It's like they asked "okay, how do we let the audience know it's a salt planet?" and someone said "we could have a guy say 'it's salt'" and that was the end of that meeting.

16) Could you provide a link to the other thread or quote the other thread?

17) Maybe.  Still seems like a change in the rules in the series.

18) Okay, but why did Yoda choose to destroy the temple and the ancient books?  What Luke has learned is not congruent with the Jedi beliefs, and so Yoda is asking Luke to start a new order.  He's asking Luke to go against the Jedi.

19) Just seemed like an extra scene that didn't need to be there in an already-too-long movie.

I'm with Landen on this, thanks for answering, point to you!

As to 10.3, I'll need to see it again but wasn't she just reflecting what happened to Kylo? Because I thought right after that we see her in the hut talking to Kylo. I could be wrong, like I said I have to see it again.

Maybe she was reflecting to Kylo or Luke, but it wasn't clear.

This is the first Star Wars movie (except maybe Rogue One, and even then I don't think so) where dialog had to include visual flashbacks.  Look at the conversations between Luke and either Obi-Wan, Yoda, or Vader in the originals, or look at even the prequels and TFA.  The only flashbacks you see in TFA are the visions Rey sees.  This movie was definitely done in a different style than other Star Wars movies.  Another reason it feels out of place.

In geology it is perfectly normal to put things that you don't know what they are in your mouth. Quick field ID between halite and calcite is to lick it.

I should clarify what I meant. I thought we hear Rey talking about what happened, and then see her sitting in the hut, talking about it to Kylo. I agree though, this many flashbacks definitely feel out of place for a Star Wars film.

Wow! I was trying to hurry, because I had to drive for about 4 hours, and the brackets did a number on my autocorrect without time to proofread it. Kudos to those who could decipher it.

Like I said, I'm not going to convince you, so that's not my point, but your responses brought up other points.

1. I'm pretty sure the pilot didn't die before the bombs dropped. The bombardier did.

2. Even our Navy's fleet is identified by different fleet names.
However, each group just calls itself a fleet. https://www.navysite.de/navy/fleet.htm (https://www.navysite.de/navy/fleet.htm)
The importance of this fleet is that Leia was there. To think that they would not have their overall fleet scattered for protection is not realistic.

2.5 Hubris? Hux and Snoke wanting the kill and the glory all to themselves. Out of range? Other fleets couldn't make it.

3. He also knew to keep his eyes shut when the Ark was opened. How? He also climbed aboard a German u-boat and got on board without being detected. He would have had to open the main hatch of the conning tower and climb inside. This would've dropped him right into the Control Room, which would've been full of officers, including the ship's captain, preparing for the dive. How was he not detected?

In some cases we reeeeeeeally have to suspend our belief.

4. As a teacher, I have quite a few students who I really like on a personal level, even though they make my life a living hell in the classroom. You ever work with someone like that? She's having to wear two hats. She has to keep him in line while others are around, but in private, with Leia, she can freely admit that his heart, drive, and ability to question authority are exactly what the rebels need.

5. You don't like either Finn, what they are doing with his character, or some combination. Got it. Moving on.

6. So if someone saw you do your thing in a bar fight, would they dismiss it as ridiculous, or would they assume you've had some level of training/experience/knowledge? Why can't we assume that Rose had some? The movie was already too long, but now you want some exposition on Rose? That's what gave us the prequels and the spinoff movies, too. Do we really need the backstory for everyone? Why can't we just sit back, accept some things, and enjoy them?

8. We don't know how long it took for the FO to regroup and mount their attack. It could have been days. I agree, it's a stretch, but again, do we need to know everything? This is common in SW. Luke's training with Yoda comes to mind.

9. How is it a loose thread? It happened in the movie. When it happened, I thought it was going to be overheard by a passing officer and blow their cover. It was that loud.

10. I agree that Luke's trial made sense, but we also have hindsight and deeper knowledge with which to view it. Rey's may make sense in time. It was confusing, but it didn't ruin the movie. As for the narration, it's a stylistic device. Some people show, and some people tell. You may not prefer it, but that doesn't make it wrong.

12. I know, right?

13. I also don't think we've seen the full reveal. I think Kylo was lying.

16. Sure. http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=36713.msg597537#msg597537 (http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=36713.msg597537#msg597537)

17. Possibly. Should they just forever keep things the same way? They did that with Finn, and you don't like that. Or should they advance characters, skills, knowledge, weapons, etc.?

18. Imagine trying to be a doctor with medical books from ancient Greece. That's what Luke was trying to do. What do you think those books contained with regard to Force knowledge compared to Luke's time? What about saber techniques? Were sabers even around then? He's telling Luke to continue on the Jedi teachings, but under the correct perspective.

This part was confusing to me after my first viewing, but I made it a point to really focus in it during my second. That's why I suggested it.

19. I agree, it wasn't needed, but I think it was a nice touch to show that we are going to go in a different direction away from the Skywalkers. I just hope they do a nice close to the Skywalker chapter of the story. Right now, I don't feel like we are there.

They should both be in the cockpit.  Since one is useless without the other, they should be in a similar location.


Our fleets have different names, but do we call it "The United States Fleet"?  It is "an United States fleet" or "the 7th fleet".  This was referred to as "The Rebel fleet" and that destroying this fleet would bring about the end of the Rebellion.

When other fleets are mentioned, they're not rebel fleets.  It's others that "might" help or that might be "sympathetic" to the cause.  When Leia is waiting in the old Rebel base, she is saying that the hope for the Galaxy has gone dry because they are going to die.

I don't see anything to suggest there's more Rebel ships.  More potential rebels, yes, but none in the Rebellion at the time.


Maybe.


I can't speak for the U-Boat because I don't know much about that.  I do know that anyone who knows anything about the Ark of the Covenant knows not to look inside it.  It is said a piece of God is inside the Ark, and no mortal man can survive looking at the face of God.

I'm also not talking about the Mary Sue/Gary Stu knowledge.  I'm talking about literally surviving explosions.  Like the explosions in Episode 2 that killed Padme's double?  These were bigger explosions that Poe was closer to, and yet he didn't even get burned or require any medical attention.  It's hard to suspend disbelief when it's your eyes that are disbelieving.


So...she could lecture him in private.  If she likes his heart and drive, she should encourage that, but check his rash behavior.  Instead she belittles him.


I loved Finn in TFA because he was, in my opinion, one of the best developed characters in the Star Wars movies.  You see him change his loyalty, you see him go from a coward who's running away from his problems to a hero who is standing up for what's right.  You can see his demeanor change when he's making excuses in the first half of TFA, to when he becomes the hero in the second half.

The problem is that his character arc was basically complete.  Where does he grow from there?  So all they did is in TLJ they made him do the same thing.  The first half, he just wants to run away from his problems and gives excuses for why he's doing so, and in the second half he's a hero who is willing to sacrifice himself for the Rebellion.

I liked coward Finn as a character.  You had to try and figure out what's really going on with him.  I also liked hero Finn.  What I don't like is multiple personality or bipolar Finn that goes back and forth between hero and coward, based simply on the movie recycling his character arc.


Well I already think the whole Finn/Rose plot could be scrapped, so if that happens there's no need for any backstory.  In fact, we did get some backstory on Rose, in a couple of cases:
*Her sister was on the bomber
*She's a mechanic (it's said, not shown)
*She's from the planet they're going to and has some history there (again, said, not shown)

If they would have just made her a security officer, it would make sense she'd be running security on the escape pods, that she'd be a pilot, and that she'd know about tracking programs.  But all the exposition they give her conflicts with what they show in the movie.  What's said and what's shown are two different things.


The shuttle crashed into the base, and it appeared they were immediately besieged.  It shouldn't take a fleet of several Star Destroyers that long to deploy a ground assault, even if the main ship was destroyed.


I'm not sure what I meant by loose thread.  I might have been thinking about something else or typing in the wrong spot.  I wrote my response to yours right after waking up.

However, it was a tiny glimmer of relevance in a large plot that really went nowhere, and it could have been scrapped to give the movie a better run time.


Movies in the same series should be shot in the same style.  Star Wars is an adventure story that you experience as its happening.  If they want to do different with the side stories that's one thing, but to change the style of the main anthology is jarring.  It doesn't feel like a Star Wars movie in the way that the others have.


My problem with Finn is that his character development was undone.  He went from coward to hero in TFA, and then started again as a coward and went back to hero in TLJ.  In Episode 9, is he going to go from coward to hero again?

As far as keeping things the same...you have a universe.  The Star Wars universe.  It has rules about how Hyperspace works, how shields work, how the Force works, how space battles work, etc.  To change those rules is to change the fabric of the universe that's been created.  Let's say we take Lord of the Rings, and give the humans defending Minas Tirith a bunch of .50 cal machine guns and 80mm artillery cannons.  I mean, that's different from the Battle of Helms Deep, right?

I want to see new stories within the rules established in the Star Wars universe.  Otherwise it's a continuity error.


It was clear what you meant.  It wasn't clear in the movie.

You’re right and it pissed me off too. I hated it in fact.

This was interesting to me. During WWII, the B-17 bomber had a very similar concept. The pilot would fly directly over the target, and the bomber would open the hatches and drop the bombs from inside the bomb bay of the aircraft. This was the same method used by the resistance bombers, so I wonder if they got their inspiration from that.

RIP rest in pieces Anakin, Luke, and Reys lightsaber  :(

Hey query on this film. As stated above there are.... many plot holes in this one. I actually left the theater feeling like I really wasn't sure what I watched, to be honest. Kind of reminded me of the kind of clip-show esque movies marvel makes, which you know if it's marketable sure. But I think I could be ok with the film if not for a single fact, the hyperspace dart gun moment. You know the one where purple hair lady goes MAC Gun through the not-Imperial fleet. So, with that being a viable method of mass destruction (Which I also think you don't need anyone on board for that, btdubs) What's to stop someone from using cheap ships as missiles? Or further, rocks with hyperdrives and a t-comp? Like, I can see that "revelation" leading to a sort of really nasty guerrilla war tactic land, and that sounds... super non star wars. Am I super off base here? Like, is there a piece of star wars lore that makes this actually ok? or is this just a big oops on Disney? It has just been a burning question I've had since I saw the film.

One thing I do want to point out since noone else seems to have mentioned it

The entire Finn/Rose subplot does fit in perfectly with this film. Whether you agree/like it or not is another story.
100% true their entire plot adds nothing to the film and even further that they actually failed.
But that was the point (both for the plot and overall film).
Not everything you do works out. They failed. There were no heros in this film as the commoners take up the mantle.


I also do agree that I absolutely loathed the Leia flying back into space ship after being in deep space (they could have just as easily had a far more realistic scenario, say being trapped or fire or) and the bombers were annoying and seemed very unrealistic.

This movie was terrible, not just as a Star Wars chapter, but as a movie in general.

I say this as someone who likes the prequels, I think TLJ is by far the worst of the series.

There is no way Luke would ignore a plea for help from Chewie and his sister while everything they fought for is trashed by the First Order, no way. They turned Hux into a bumbling 3 Stooges villain, a total joke of a character. The jokes were lame and out of place. Holdo was an idiot, plain and simple. They just throw away so many rules of the SW universe, etc etc. Snoke was an awesome character, what an ass, an arrogant mean powerful guy, who just dies like he's stormtrooper #415 or some secondary character.

Its OK that Rey is nobody, but not after they build up who she is in Episode 7, her whole vision is just nothing now. This movie does nothing to advance the story, except to kill off a couple of characters.

 One point. Yoda destroyed the tree (force ghost appropriate or not) and the Jedi texts telling Luke essentially "That library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess." because if you pay attention, she took the books with her. Yoda was speaking literally. He destroyed a tree. Nothing else. When Fin opens a drawer on the Falcon to get Rose a blanket you can see the texts.
 
 O.K. two points. In the cave scene Rey was VERY clearly talking about it with Kylo, not narrating.
Never mind. I'm done trying to get people to understand why this was a great movie period, let alone one of the best Star Wars movies because of breaking these so called "rules" of Star Wars films. If you want the exact same thing over and over without being challenged or surprised, I suggest re-watching 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 for eternity.
 
 Alright, three points. Who is Snoke? I answer this with a question. Without the prequels who was the "Emperor"? He was never even referred to as Pallpatine or Darth Sidious in the OT. I am not talking about EU as that is not my place, I am strictly speaking about the films. Hey, wouldn't it be great and super original if he was still alive for the next and last movie of this trilogy so he could hit Rey with force lightning and Kylo could save her by sacrificing himself at the last minute? BORING!

Hell with it. Here goes. These are just my mostly humble opinions.

"Well, here’s all the questions I got from my text:"
1.   Why didn’t the super bombers have decent controls or tactics?
They are a rag tag group of rebels using what they have. Who knows how old those ships are?
2.   Was this the entire rebel fleet?
That was the impression I got.
3.   Why is there so much plot armor for the main characters?
Movies. This is how they generally work.
4.   Why does the new admiral keep Poe in the dark?
She has issues. She sucks at her job. Is she lame? Yep. Again this is how movies work.If every character is perfect and easy to understand things get boring. She pissed me off for sure, yet her kamikaze move showed what she was really about.
5.   Why did Finn become a coward again only to become a hero again?
He has only known the kindness of three people Poe, Rey and Han. Han is dead, Poe is fine without him. Last thing he saw was Rey (who he believes needs protecting) being thrown up against a tree by Kylo (he never saw her take him on at all) therefore she is his main concern.
6.   What is Rose?
An all around bad ass.
7.   What was accomplished with the Finn/Rose plot?
Failure. Like Yoda said "the greatest teacher Failure is" at least they tried is my take away. Did Luke not fail in Episode 5? He cut short his training to face Vader and turn him. Instead, he did not turn him or defeat him, he even lost his arm trying. OOPS!
8.   How did Finn learn to pilot a craft?
He obviously was not a Tie-Fighter pilot, but do you think he learned nothing being a storm trooper?
9.   How did the code-breaker know about the cloaked ships?
All I can say to this is pay attention. ::)
10.   What was going on in the Shadow Cave?
Seriously? Umm... pay attention?
11.   Why did Kylo Ren kill Snoke?
Because he was sick of being used as a pawn, and saw an opportunity to take his place.
12.   Who was Snoke, and will we ever find out now?
Again, who was the Emperor before the prequels?
13.   What was the point of having Rey’s parents be nobodies?
This is a big one for me. The point was made by Skywalker himself. Anyone could be force sensitive. To think that the force belongs to a certain family or only those with a high midichlorian count is pure arrogance. It's also boring.  
14.   What happened to all the TIE fighters following the Falcon?
Pew pew pew. ;)
15.   What was the point of the planet being a salt planet?
What was the point of Hoth being an ice planet.
16.   Why did Luke become one with The Force?
His last act took all of his mental and physical strength, and the fact that it was done selflessly brought him peace and closure.  
17.   How did Yoda control the Force?  In the originals, all the Force Ghosts could do is give advice.
I do not have an answer for this other than powers beyond death evolving for Jedi. This might be the best question and better answered by someone with a better knowledge of the EU than myself.
18.   Why was Yoda encouraging Luke to end the Jedi?  That’s not in his nature.
Again, he knows Rey has the texts. And he speaks cryptically (i don't mean backwards). He responds to the question posed by Luke "So it IS time for the Jedi to end?" by saying "Time it is, for you to let go of some old books" or something like that. He never actually says "END THE JEDI."  
19.   Is the kid at the end going to be important to the Rebellion in Episode 9?
Probably not specifically. The point is he and others like him will be inspired by what Luke and the rebellion did that day. Keep in mind the majority of the galaxy has no idea Luke was not really there, or that he is gone.
20.   What happens to Leia in Episode 9, now that Carrie Fisher is no longer with us?
All I have to say about that is R.I.P. Carrie Fisher. I hope they handle that with great care and class.

Sorry if I sound defensive. I personally loved the movie and have seen it at least 12 times. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I only get upset by one thing:
WHY DOES LUKE SAY "LASER SWORD"????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF?!?!?!?!?!?

Now I have to go watch it again. lucky 13th time. ;)
MTFBWYA

That you. While it is not my favorite SW movie, it is certainly not the worst (that belongs to AOTC). This was truly a decent SW movie, unless you are Logos of LAK (or quite a few other people). As to why Luke called the Lightsaber a "Laser Sword", that it a throw back to GL's original script. He had originally intended to call them laser swords, and Rian wanted to do some more references, and that was one. Just like Vader's castle in R1. That was based off of original concept art, and they found a way to work it in. Also, why does nobody question it when Anakin says "laser sword" in TPM, but they have such a huge problem with it in TLJ?

 Good job. :) I just wanted to see if someone else knew the reference. Points! I DID question it in TPM. I felt like it was Rian making fun of George in TLJ. I disliked it both times, but at least with young Anakin it was a really young kid, not an old Jedi Master. Either way, it just made me go "huh?" for a second. It does nothing to ruin the movies for me. Could you imagine a world where we came here to talk about "Laser Swords"? I'm not sure I would want one.......Ok I would still totally want one. ;)

I just realized that I started that post with "That you."  It was supposed to be "Thank you".

 I figured thank. :) That you too. ;D

Well said Lord Vaalic, I agree.  >:( >:( Rouge One is best Disney star wars movie IMO. They just ruined the other two.  >:( >:(
They should have just called it star wars the next generation if they were going to do what ever the frick they wanted to.  >:( >:(

Agreed. Enjoy this delightful video that covers the incompetence of the Military (on both sides) in TLJ.
Thanks for the laughs Logos  ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLqLQvTbo-Y

 Wow! So this is funny because the guy narrating is color blind and can't tell the difference between pink and purple? Or is it funny because he made a half hour video breakdown of bad military tactics in a series of movies that has sound in space, flames in space, and laser (light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation) bolts that can be seen by the naked eye while traveling slower than light? If it's all of the above, Hilarious. ;)

You are aware that most weapons in Starwars are plasma based?
With the most notable exceptions seen on screen in the movies Chewies bow caster, which normaly is more or less a rail gun, and Luke's slugthrower that gets split in half by a tusken raider before it can fire even once.

 Yes i am. Wookiepedia describes blasters as "Operating under the same principles as laser weaponry".  They must not know what they are talking about.

 And as for rail guns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvrQciFL0ig

I have come to the realization that it isn't worth talking about our opinions about TFA and TLJ on here, because nobody seems to care anyways. You and I are in the minority that actually liked these two movies (on this forum at least), and any time we talk about why we liked them, someone comes and pretty much disses our opinion, but they will never explain why they do not like them. I have pretty much stopped talking about these two movies on here because of it.

 I have to agree. This is why I almost just left it alone in the first place. But It's kinda funny, for now. :)

 
Well just checked Wookiepedia and to quote from the 'laser' page:

"A laser was a beam of focused energy operating under the same principles as blaster weaponry. Energy-rich gas would be converted to a glowing particle beam with the type of gas dictating the bolts color and qualities. The most common color was red because of its cheaper gas, green bolts are produced from a higher quality gas thus increasing price, blue bolts used ion based charges for more effectiveness against electronic and mechanical targets, such as droids, and orange being low powered and used more in training.[1] Although these lasers did not act like a normal laser of photons moving the speed of light as seen as laser trip wires, it was a projectile weapon that could melt through targets, create explosions and even disintegrate objects."http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Laser (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Laser)

So laser in Starwars may or may not Refer to what a laser actually is. But we are getting quite a bit of topic with this.

Quite a bit OF topic indeed.

The movies can be fun if you do not think too deeply about them (but then again, SERIOUSLY, I could say the exact same thing about New Hope, Empire, & Return Jedi). It's funny how fanboys grow up to be so jaded against prequel trilogy and new trilogy
As a child I watched them for fun and did not think twice about terms like realism. I can see my son having just as much fun as I once did.

But ploy holes aside* the one thing that REALLY bugs me about new trilogy is the entire First Order thing
Watching these films you would never have guessed that Empire LOST the civil war (both in Return of Jedi and later at Battle of Jakku both of which were supposed to be major turning points in the war)

It just baffles me how the good guys are so small / weak and bad guys have such a huge power base


As to trying to argue with haters or fanboys like I said the films (all of them) can be picked apart if someone cares to do so
But seriously whats the point
Pretty sad life if their whole purpose is trying to put down everything in the cinemas




*although to be fair although fun the Last Jedi has far more plot issues than Force Awakens had

I agree with literally everything you said here.

really I couldn't care less about the "realism" or tech side of the argument.  It is story and character that I care about...and TLJ failed miserably  in that regard.  But that is my opinion and yes it is shared, apparently, but a large part of the fanbase.  If you like TLJ..thats fine.  Not going to knock you for liking it even if I can't see why.  The splitting of the fanbase is the hardest to take really.  Through all these years and debates, through the EU and the Prequels the Star Wars community was still unified.  We may have liked some aspect of SW more than others..but we never let it really tear us apart.  So what happened.  I;m sure everyone has their own theory, some probably insulting to the opposite "side".   Really is sad.

Speaking for myself: one of the most egregious sins of TLJ was the criminal waste of Luke within canon.  Instead of becoming the promised "great Jedi" I expected (or at least wanted), his entire character arc is relegated to being a worthless, weak, and inconsequential shadow of Obi-Wan.

SO much potential unrealized...

That is maybe the most significant disappointment for me; not so much the plot holes, etc., but the epic ness that could have been. There's definitely something to be said for going a different way and doing things differently. That said, seeing Luke as a Master and having the chance to view a display of his power after the benefit of 30 years of study/training was a no-brainer IMO.

Being a fan for so long, I was intrigued enough by the film and my response to it that I spent a few months creating a full length enhanced visual commentary for the Last Jedi. It is a companion to the film that you sync with it and watch them together.

Over 100 topics are discussed, there is a ton of stuff from the visual dictionary and I bring in segments of the other films when the commentary is pertinent. I think it's pretty fair. I'm critical when I think it's necessary and offer praise when warranted.

Here's the trailer for it:

 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFDabtZAflU#)

Checking it out, thanks DPM

The consensus among those of us who did not like the film seems to be its treatment of Luke.

That's my biggest disappointment for TLJ, his character arc was just destroyed.  All of those decades of building this character just to end his story that way is a travesty of justice

Well........that was at the top of my complaints list. ::)

Luke was emotional and angry because he tried to kill his nephew for being emotional and angry...  

(http://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnAXR539RukNgt2/giphy.gif)