Saber Forum

Sorry, decided to help two squabbling Sith out and start a thread for them.  ;-)

It has been suggested that Vader was not in fact acting altruistically when he killed the Emperor.  That his intentions were in fact what he had stated to Luke earlier - kill the Emperor, take his place, and rule the galaxy as father and son.

Others have contended that Vader, still conflicted at his core, acted to save his son from death and through his action redeemed himself, turning away from the Dark Side and returning to the Light Side of the force.

So, I pose the question:  Which do you think it is?  Or is there a third way?  Did Anakin Skywalker truly redeem himself, or was it just Vader grasping at a last, desperate chance to usurp Darth Sidious and perhaps exact revenge on him for lying to him about being able to keep Padame alive?

Share your thoughts...

I think it is the second option. He killed Palpatine to save his son. There are no Sith Force ghosts (as stated by George), which means you would have to either be Jedi or Gray in order to become a Force ghost. Anakin turned into a Force ghost, therefor, he obviously is no longer Sith.

Even though it isn't stated at all in the film (perhaps in some of the novels, idk) but I always imagined in those moments where Vader looks to the Emperor and then to his son getting deep fried like turkey that he was having one of those cliche internal flashback sequences. It's interesting that if we look at the origin story of the Vader persona that Anakin specifically joined Sidious for a very specific reason (to save Padme) and then when that all falls apart he doesn't lash out at the Emperor for lying or out of anger but falls in line as his apprentice. It speaks of a broken soul with no one left to turn to save for the old disfigured man in black robes. Flash forward to the end of ROTJ and Vader seems to realize that he isn't alone anymore, there is a "light side" of the Force coming back into his life again because of his son and it awakens all of those memories and how the Emperor ultimately wronged him.

Seems a long synopsis for me to say that I think Vader finally saw through his misdeeds and was redeemed.  :P

Interesting theory though, since it is the duty of a Sith apprentice to destroy the master I would say Vader fulfilled that in spades.

I agree I think he killed him to save his son

I never knew this was in question.  The moment he grabbed the Emperor Vader died and Anakin was reborn.

So, taking just the original trilogy, he did it to save Luke.  Adding in the prequels, and then more, muddies the waters.  I think he certainly still intended to save Luke, but I think there are also feelings of revenge, Dark Side fevered ambitions of usurping his master.  As for Lucas, I think when he made teh prequels, his vision changed.  Not sure if it was the narrative going elsewhere, he had set it aside so long it was no longer the same vision, or he was just selling it all out.  I have even heard that he was less or more involved in bits, or so some would like to think.  I also think it's possible, that even with questionable motives involved, that his overall act redeemed him.  Or perhaps he even had fulfilled his purpose as the force had intended, as some would speculate.  In the end, we have to accept that there are a number of ways and places where the SW universe, cannon and Legends, has issues, and severe inconsistencies.  

Of course, Sith, riling up opponents may suggest that Vader was just trying to follow the path of the rule of two, especially in that thread. ;)

Anakin became Vader to protect his family and destroyed it in the process.  When he finds his son he becomes obsessed.  When his son rejects him because of his connection to the dark side (just like his wife did) it leaves him broken.  I've always felt like Vader in RotJ wasn't the same as in the other films.  He seems more like Palpatine's lackey.

Luke goes to Vader on Endor fully confident that he's going to save his father from being Palatine's punk.  He doesn't even believe Vader will take him to him, but it shows just how much power Palpatine has over Vader.  Luke knew all along his father still had good in him, its why he refuses to fight him and throws his weapon down later.

His son was right, he just needed a push.  The dark side didn't have the power to save his family.  Here it is, destroying what's left.  Bye bye Papa Palpatine.  ;D ;D ;D

(https://media.giphy.com/media/gp3myhAIxv2Zq/giphy.gif)

Like DT, i did not know there was a question ...

To me, DV saved his son and went back from the dark side.

Ah, I agree with you all.  I just posted this to tweak Logos.  :-)

Yes, never a question until Illyiss and Logos came along. ::) :D

Pretty sure Logos is in the "Vader did it to save Luke camp"  ::)

He isn't the only one, but stimulating conversation is fun.  As well, this was taken from the posting game, which we both know is about fun.

I am in agreement with everyone here: he did it to save Luke (and never mind that added--and hideous--NOOOO! from Vader as he tossed Pappy down the shaft; I had ALWAYS thought that  ;)).

That said, Illyiss and Sam have excellent observations that the plot (heh) of the PT serves to give legitimate motives to Vader (instead of "moustache-twirling" bad guy--cue Imperial March--well, not that we NEEDED that; in the OT, Vader was always awesome IMO) in that he's a true believer: the Jedi are evil (and like Sam stated: "save family" but gets "lost" along the way).  VERY interesting!






But, yeah, Luke, redemption, yada, yada, yada  ;)

Anakin's Force ghost proves that there's no question; Darth Vader was redeemed.

I'd say so, too. Taking into account the prequels, you have to realize that there were many tragic losses in his life - first, his mother when he left her on Tatooine. Second, his mother when she was murdered by the Tusken Raiders. Third, his wife when he choked her and she died during birth. He lost everything that's important to him. Then he found out that Luke was actually his son he never knew. I think this was the point when his old conflict rose again, after being suppressed for so long. He knew that Luke was the only thing left that remembers him of his love. Seeing Luke being tortured by Palpatine remembered him of his decision to join the Emperor after Windu was killed by Force Lightning and how this affected his whole life. He simply couldn't allow Palpatine to kill his son, taking the only thing that was left from his old life and finally having total control of Vader. He had to break free, and that's why he killed Palpatine.

My point of view :P

Taking to account the Clone Wars he also lost Ahsoka... really showed the Jedi Council's ineptitude.

Yeah, that too. I'm not that familiar with CW ;)

Although I am in full support that Vader acted purely to save his son, I have never been swayed to believe that one righteous act atones for a career of evil. (And it definitely doesn't mean your force ghost gets a pass on being a wrinkly old man.)

Another instance I can cite where the apprentice took full advantage of the master being distracted: Darth Plagueis' ascension. SPOILER ALERT: During a cave-in in a cortosis mine, Darth Plagueis killed Tenebrous while he endeavored to save their ship from being destroyed. His impulse inevitably stranded him, not per se in the mine, but on the planet. As we know, he eventually escaped, but it was at significant inconvenience.


I like your theory of regret over Padme, and the broken soul bit. However, it is also the duty of the master to fully train a worthy successor. Sidious never did. He schemed to live and rule forever. Maul, Tyranus, Vader, and any number of yet unwritten unknowns, though powerful, were never to be enough to challenge Sidious.


Are you speaking of redemption through renunciation?


Ugh. Lucas' vision, as of the prequels, couldn't be helped if he was wearing Farnworth's reading glasses.
(http://theinfosphere.org/images/a/a2/Farnsworth%27s_Reading_Glasses.jpg)


This idea runs along the same mentality of a beaten dog. It does what it's told, and responds in kind to aggression, but changes loyalties when true compassion is shown to it.


Screw


You


Guys


You forgot that he also lost his faith. Not in the religious sense, but in that the Jedi were good, and fought to do the right thing. But that was also Sidious playing him like a cheap fiddle.

You're right, I forgot that, too.

This entire thread is worthwhile if for just this comment/meme!

Ah, but he did challenge Sidious, at least in the end, for a different reason though... meh. You bring up another interesting point that Vader was not powerful enough to challenge Sidious outright. Vader tries to enlist Luke to help him out in ESB and (non-canon) tries to use Starkiller in the same way. Come to think of it, Tyranus did try the exact same thing during the Clone Wars. Sidious is just too bad to be messed with (unless of course he's distracted while frying someone, then he's an easy kill  ;D)

Oh it's not that Palpy wasn't challenged by his underlings, it's that he never equipped them to be a true threat to him.  The Rule of Two provides that each Sith master should train a competent apprentice, who will eventually supplant them, and become stronger, thus ever increasing the power of the Sith.  Palpy intended to be the last, and reign forever, immortal.  His hubris had bigger balls than Jupiter.  So, he always intended his toys to be disposable, and only called them apprentice to keep them hungry.  His downfall wasn't that Vader was able to take him, it's that he miscalculated in Luke, and failed to foresee, as a result, that Vader would turn on him in defense of Luke.

I aim to please.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK. T.F.U. IS CANON. >:( (:P) And why do you think that no one was ever powerful enough to challenge Sidious? (Even though Galen Marek did make an impressive go of it.)

The reason Vader was able to successfully attack was the same reason I listed earlier, and to which Luke even pointed out: "You're overconfidence is your weakness." The Emperor relied too heavily on Vader being a whipped dog that he didn't foresee him biting back. I also wouldn't have called that a "challenge". One's opponent usually knows you're coming when you challenge them.

Well said.

*Bows*  Thank you. 

One thing the new comics have shown, is Vader building a bit of a network outside of Papa Palpatines sight. 

Are you so certain it was ACTUALLY out of Palpy's sight?  Creating networks to be more effective of a tool, to let Vader think, as well, that he is getting somewhere in his plotting, sounds just like a Palpy method...

Yeah, in comics, books, and cartoons there were many times when Maul thought his actions were not known to Sidious when in fact they were guided and enacted exactly like Sidious wanted with him swiftly swooping in and bringing the lightning any time it was otherwise.

I state whats written down as of now, I have my own conjectures but I stuck to the facts ;P   But Vader did find out about Luke outside of Palpy's sight.

True, though hiring bounty hunters was probably so routine, Palpy wouldn't have batted an eye.

I was going off the idea you gave me, that off the top of my head I don't recall any Sith ever going "I've got a bright idea, I'll usurp Sidious by myself." They always sought help with taking him down, Tyranus did, Maul did, Vader did, I'm not too familiar with TFU but good on Starkiller if he tried. It's just a testament to the high opinion that the Sith have for Sidious if they knew better than to take him on solo. Doubly so in that pride is a dark side trait and all of his apprentices laid that aside because they probably thought they'd end up fried, lol it rhymes.  ::)

Eh, I think the whole "foresight" thing is kind of a weak plot tool in Star Wars. It's too easy to say "-insert character- can tell future events except when the plot warrants it, then they don't see it coming." just my two pennies. 

I like this thread, lots of good discussion here.

Ask yourself.........is this relevant to a plot point that is 30+ years older?

Already been done. Starkiller had one of the most advanced infiltration ships in the Empire. A pilot handpicked by Vader (ulterior motives not withstanding). And mad sneaky skills. And even the Emperor still found them. (Although I haven't ruled out the possibility of Vader ratting himself out to sow the deception. :-\)

Even though the Emperor is fully aware of the father/son relationship by EpV?

That's what was established. Sidious trained his "apprentices" just enough for them to be exceptionally useful, but never enough to stand a chance of challenging him. Even to a point that multiple foes wouldn't be enough to match him. The same tradition was carried on when Dooku went looking for another lackey. He wanted someone powerful enough to use, but not too much to control. Ultimately, Ventress and Opress weren't enough to challenge him, so he and one of his lackeys would never be enough to take down the Master. I don't remember Dooku making a play, though. Maul only sought revenge for being betrayed, despite acknowledging that he was apprentice to "the most powerful being in the galaxy."

SPOILER ALERT:

Vader's scheme in TFU was to use Starkiller to draw out the Emperor's enemies. Essentially, Starkiller rallied the Alliance founders. And once they were all gathered, Vader struck. He as much admitted to Marek that he lied his ass off for the last 18 or so years, and that he never intended to usurp the Emperor with him. The LS ending was pretty sweet, when the surviving Rebels found the Marek family crest (Wookiee origin unknown) as what we all recognize. But before that, Marek knocked Vader out of the fight, and engaged the Emperor to allow the Rebels time to escape.

I don't think their fear of Sidious reflected a high opinion, merely that they knew they were no match. It's like when you're a child, you know that you are no match for an adult (usually). But as you grow and learn you discover that you eventually become a match, if not surpass their ability. If you want to talk about ultimate Sith power, you should read up on Emperor Vitiate. ;)

On the foresight note, have you ever paid attention to an event when it turned out exactly as you expected? Flip a light switch. Drive home from work. Open the drain in the bathtub. The answer is no. You only take note when something is out of place. The light doesn't come on. You have to take a detour. The bathtub doesn't drain. I think that the Emperor couldn't predict the exact outcome of his throne room, because the specific of him frying look was too specific, and therefore why would he suspect that action of triggering his faithful dog?

Well written, Logos.

I see what you mean, but I still think that splitting hairs on the entire "foresight" in Star Wars pokes holes in how effective and cohesive the ability is. I'll look into Emperor Vitiate, I've never even heard of him.

Also, you can probably tell I'm a Light-sider so I appreciate your tutelage Darth Logos.

It has occurred to me that you're looking at foresight, which I mentioned, as though I was referring to precognition, like Force visions.  I was speaking of foresight as one has when playing chess, having the vision to see where an action, or series of them, will lead.

Gotcha Illyiss, that makes more sense.

If you ever want a good education, I recommend reading some of the discussions in the Jedi and Sith Academy threads.

You're in for a treat (maybe) when you research Vitiate. Long story short: he would make Sidious piss his pants and be left sucking his thumb in the fetal position.

Sith Force Ghost:
https://www.nola.com/saints/2012/09/meet_new_orleans_saints_super.html (https://www.nola.com/saints/2012/09/meet_new_orleans_saints_super.html)

http://www.robbyklein.com/robby-klein/2012/07/20/defend-new-orleans (http://www.robbyklein.com/robby-klein/2012/07/20/defend-new-orleans)

Finally: The emperor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKWVCv8uWDI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKWVCv8uWDI)

Maybe it's both. Maybe he wanted to kill Palpatine so that there was nothing left to stand in the way of his rule, but at the same time save Luke so that he could have his son at his side. After all, as others have pointed out, Luke and Leia are the only family he has left at that point. His closeness to his mom, then being devastated by her death, marrying Padme, then being thrilled to find out she was pregnant, then being devastated by her death and believing his unborn child was also dead, pointed to a man who is big on family. When he had nothing left, he served the Emperor faithfully, but Luke provided him with what he always wanted, a close family member to rule with him. (he proposed the idea of a joint rule to both Padme and Luke) So, killing the Emperor to save Luke's life doesn't necessarily mean he all of a sudden turned good. It just means he didn't want his only son and heir to die a the hands of a master that he never felt that kind of connection to. His suit being fried may have been an unforeseen circumstance. Realizing he was going to die anyway may have been what caused him to finally let go of the Dark Side and be at peace.

Though, I've always just thought he did it to save Luke and never really delved into the reasons behind the choice.

Can't view the vid, but I'm scratching my head as to the relevance of the other links.

I don’t understand the relevance of the links either.

Well said scifidude, that is pretty much what I think/feel about the subject.

The time to overthrow the Emperor to replace him was when Luke grabbed his saber and tried to strike Palpatine. Instead of blocking Luke, they could have struck him down together. Vader's loyalties were mixed, twisted and tested as much as Palpy tried to twist Luke. Luke's final refusal inspired Vader and frustrated Palpatine. Perhaps that was the first real moment Vader had to kill the Emperor, which was Anakin's plan from before Padme's death. I don't know that Vader ever could be convinced that Palpatine's politics of one ruler was wrong, but he was shown that Palpatine isn't it. But, in the aftermath, he thought of Luke's survival, wanting Leia to know Luke was right and not Vader's own survival, which Sith are known to do. I'd say it's clear his selfless mindset and that he was redeemed. Also, he's a frikkin' spirit at the end, sittin' next to Yoda and Obi-Wan.

Ugh. Don't get me started on the ghosts. It was an excuse for a warm fuzzy.

Wait, you don't like the Force Ghosts at the end of ROTJ?

Depends on which ROTJ. Original cut's 'salright.

But now that you ask I started theorizing on how a Force spirit is generated. From what the movies have portrayed, it seems that the requisite is being at peace and accepting death. Qui Gon was at peace knowing that Obi Wan would fulfill his dying wish. Yoda falls asleep and literally poofs out. Obi Wan accepts that his death will have far flung victories by allowing Luke to escape. Vader accepts his mistakes and finally sees his son as a correction for his sins. All of the Sith Lords that fell, did so in a frenzied or panicked state. Dooku, unbelieving that his master just threw him under the bus after he lost both hands, and possibly believing that a Jedi would not act as executioner. Sidious was all hyped up on bad vibes to produce lightning (which apparently is not easily turned off) and then plummets to his death screaming. Also considering that the very title of Darth is representative of "conqueror of death." They all really don't want to see the end, and more than likely never accept it. It also wouldn't help that they have a long history of being betrayed by their apprentices. I don't see many of them going out quietly. Also, going off of this theory, it's doubtful that Windu made it to ghost-hood. Unless he came to grips with death before hitting the ground.

That's pretty much what the consensus is, its why in the EU Sith Lords became specters.  Got to wonder about Mace though since Qui-Gon was the first to figure it out and taught it to Yoda

Oh fah. Qui Gon was not the first. Besides, nobody taught Luke how to commune with a spook. Obi Wan just showed up and started barking orders. And what pray tell is the difference between a specter and a ghost?

Nothing except I like the word so I use it more than Ghost.  But, even then Ghost isn't the right term for Either of them.  Jedi can come and go as they please, so in all sense they are not actual ghosts.  Ghosts are tied to a person, place or object.  Sith Spirits are though so they can be classified as ghosts or more precisely Poltergeists.

Even though the latter half of that word literally translates to "ghost". How about the word 'essence'? Not so much free roaming as it is tied to a relic.

He saw Luke becoming him. The parallel between  that scene and the scene between Anakin and Dooku... he knows Palpatine played him and screwed his life. When confronted with his son face to face being stronger than he was and refusing to use his anger and accept the dark side, he realized he had to save his son.

He redeemed himself when the sight of his son being tortured and calling out to him broke through that armor and into the heart of the man who was once Anakin Skywalker. Luke didn't give in to hate and perhaps even more importantly didn't surrender to cynicism. He held to his belief that underneath all that darkness there was soul worth saving.

 Anakin even says to Luke "You were right about me." If Vader had done it just to usurp Palpatine I think he would have still been trying to make Luke turn even with his last breath.

Palpatine isn't dead. Watch the trailer for episode nine.  ::)

Don't put too much stock in the 'Return of Palpatine' just off the teaser trailer.
These things are sometimes deliberately misleading.

I'd point out that the trailers for Force Awakens would have you think Finn was the new Jedi hero.

I'd like to point out that the first trailer for TFA would have us to think that Finn was the Hero and main character of the sequels.

Yeah, so far all we really have is a familiar cackle. Though personally I really would prefer it if The Emperors death in ROTJ was his actual death.

Sidious is actually the only play they have. They need a villain that is already established that can be destroyed (again) within the span of a single film, since the idiots wasted 2 movies building up Snoke only to have him go out like a bitch, with no explanations of his plans, motives, or origin.

Got to lay the blame where it goes....Johnson and KK.  Abrams and Trevorrow had plans which involved Snoke's backstory, Rey's parentage and Luke Surviving.  KK gave Ruin carte blanche for whatever reason and he screwed it.  Why Trevorrow left...

From the stuff I'm hearing, I actually have quite a bit of faith that JJ will be able to bring it back to at the very least decent. Plus, every storyline that has ever been opened in the Skywalker Saga (that hasn't been closed) will be resolved. I'm pretty sure this includes Snoke.

I'm stealing this. :D :D :D

Such as?....

(http://i.imgur.com/Rj9EPqG.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Rj9EPqG)

Yup, pretty much. Which is sad.

I couldn't really get on board with Snoke. He sort of struck me as diet Palpatine so much that I really didn't mind him getting punked. Maybe my feeling on that would have been different if like you say they ever explained what his actual deal was supposed to be. Now there's a hole where it seems like a villain for the story should be.


But I don't know that I want The Emperor's death in ROTJ retconned to fill it.

I don't think Palpy is Alive...  Either he is a Specter, a holocron or a recording of some kind..like the Messengers that were sent to Start Operation Cinder after his death.

WOW! Didn't see that one coming. ALL THE POINTS!


The entire canon has rubbed me as "diet" with tons of artificial fillers. The bad guys are just big meanies, the heroes are nauseating clichés, and rest is just mind numbing throwbacks and recycled designs. You ever get the thought they were hoping we wouldn't notice that they really had nothing but a lame social agenda? ::)


Think of it along the lines of Sauron's "death". Everyone thought he was gone for thousands of years, but he was really biding his time and gathering his forces. I can totally see Sidious being patient enough (#sithlife) to do this same thing. Snoke may have been significant opposition enough to prevent his return.

Exactly....  Palpy Is the epitome of Sith...he plays the long game.  He even had a contingency just in case he was taken out.

Which, again, was ruined by the wicked witch and her army of flying monkeys.

I didn't mind Operation Cinder... I honestly didn't care for the whole Clone Emperors storyline.

I was more interested in the activation of the Emperor's Hand.

yea  that ain't gonna happen...an interesting character.... Disney wouldn't allow it.   Unless they do and screw it up

Why would't they allow it?

Also, it's not like they can do much worse. But I won't encourage them to try.

Gotta ask. Does anyone else read that word as EP-EE-TOME rather than EP-IH-TUM-EE? I do every single time.

Being Facetious.... because it seems like they made every decision  to make these characters less interesting...

Exactly what I've been screaming. All the main characters just seem to be empty archetypes.