Saber Forum

Title is kinda self-explanatory:

Can users of the Dark Side of the Force be good, or a force for good, in any other way than the fact they spur on the "good guys" like the Jedi to fight?

I know the Sith are the, "bad guys" in the Star Wars universe, but, all my life, since people have told me I give off huge Dark Side vibes, even though I strongly believe in fairness and justice, I've had this question rattling around in the back of my head.

DISCUSS!

Technically yes. There are many people who do the right thing for the wrong reasons. What truly makes a Sith a Sith (and I'm sure Logos will tell me I'm wrong), is not their desire to destroy or kill everything that stands in their way (though many do wan to do that), but rather it is that for all their power, they only want more FOR THEMSELVES. They are selfish, so they can do the right thing (be a force for good), but it is almost exclusively if it lines up with what they want.

There can be exceptions (Logos is one many times, wanting to return SW to it's original glory, though again, it is because he wants it like that. It has nothing to do with the fact that other people want it like that too).

Oh I HIGHLY recommend that anyone interested in this subject check out stories in the FanFiction section written by (in no particular order) Lord_S_Gray, Taegin Roan, and TheDrunkenConsular as they feature characters that are, if not outright Sith or Darksiders, then they exhibit Dark side tendencies in pursuit of justice or a greater collective goal than selfishness.

Seriously, check them out!

And if you want an excellent taste of the Gray Jedi read the stories by TheDutchman and Karmack. ;)

Dutchman referred to these works and I must say, they are great.  I'm loving it, having the feeling of opening up a new Stars Book after months of it on pre-order.


I agree, great works and their tie in with history and and references are great.



I believe that the Sith and Dark Side can be a force for good.  Jacen Solo descended to the dark side after seeing a future where the galaxy goes into war, he kills his uncle Luke or Luke himself gets killed, and having the knowledge that when he turned to the dark side, he would aid in restoring things back and have done so.   He gave up his life aiding Tenel Ka and their daughter Allana

I think the debate comes into focus when you have to decide: Can you do the right thing for the wrong reasons ... and still be considered a force for good?  I personally think that motives have a lot to do with whether what you're doing will end up helping the good or fall to the evil.  I don't generally see many real instances of people who do things for selfish reasons that end up leaving any lasting legacy for good.  Whatever the reason, the motivation ends up being important to the eventual outcome.

Which leads me to conclude that, while a Sith may aid a good cause for a time out of self-interest, in the end they can't really do good.   For that matter, if a Jedi is doing something for selfish reasons they're not really doing good, either. 

I think they can, kind of reminds me of my Jedi character from my fan fiction. He witnesses some pretty sour injustice during his time in the Order, then years later after he has walked away he starts to balance the scales "Punisher"-style. In his mind he is the hand of justice, but at the expense of everything he once was. Maybe he doesn't really qualify because he's not technically a Sith (nobody around to train him in the dark arts.)

Yeah.   I think that the reason so many people choose to cos-play and adopt "Darth" names on the forum is because they decide they can be a "good" Sith...  ;-)

Good, bad. It's the way you use it. All perspective.

I would say, in my opinion, its more like the vigilante route. Not Like The Batman....More like Punisher.

This is more what I would define as "Gray" Jedi - people who have a 'certain point of view'.  Sith hold to a code just as strict as the code of the Jedi.  Its just just diametrically opposed in philosophy and like the Jedi different Sith hold to it with different levels of fidelity. 

But a true Sith is evil, and cannot do good things, ultimately, because the good will be opposed to their worldview in fundamental ways.

Well said, and definitely agree if its from a Sith Perspective.

Close. The Sith are passionate, and power is merely a means unto an end.

If there can be Grey and Dark Jedi, why couldn't there be Grey and Light Sith?


Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory.
Through victory my chains are broken.
The Force shall set me free.


I often ask people "Where is the 'evil' in these tenets?"

I wasn't too far off, but then again, I am not a Sith.


Something I have often thought about myself. What would a "Light" Sith look like?

Now that's interesting. If it's mostly about passion, then I guess you just get a passionate Force user who is interested in serving the greater good but without too many of the Jedi hang ups I guess. Seems a bit like a Gray Jedi I suppose.

I can teach you. >:D

Starkiller.

Time to reopen the Sith Academy: Korriban thread >:D

I see him more as a Gray but everyone's different though

A true Grey is motivated by others' needs as much as his own desires. I don't see self-sacrifice being high on a Grey's list of acceptable options. Plus, Statkiller began truly believing that his missions for Vader would make the galaxy a better place. When he realized this to be a lie, he turned his full effort to saving his best chance to bring the Empire down, not revenge......mostly.

The Imperial Knights were considered Grey.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Knight


  IMO there is no such thing as a grey Jedi..only a Grey Force User.  Jedi serve the light side...in the extreme.  Extreme uses of the Dark Side are what they worry about and know how to deal with.  Army of red blade wielding Sith...they know how to deal with them.  Subtle intrigue and subterfuge (Palpatine) they are lost.  Sith are of course the opposite extreme.  They have taken their passions to the point of it consuming their every thought.  They are single minded in their focus on their objective... of course is what makes them so dangerous.  Now Grey are of course in the middle but they can lean more toward one way or the other.  For instance:  Ahsoka is Grey, but she leans more towards the light.  Assaj Ventress is grey (after her break from Dooku up to her death) but leans more towards the Dark Side.  

Haha. . . No!



Kinda, but still not fully.



Good examples. I like how Karmack put it in one of his stories. They call themselves "Gray", but because they don't associate with the Sith, and many people think they are Jedi, they will often add "Jedi" onto the end of it (something like that. I paraphrased a good bit).

A distinction should be drawn between Sith and Dark Side-  There is a great passage in the Legacy Comics where Darth Talon says something like "what it means to be a Sith has changed over the millennia" Essentially the Sith is a culture, a tradition that is not necessarily evil or selfish, You certainly have adherents like Palpatine and Bane, but also Vectivus who differed in their view of what being Sith involved. And like any culture it changes e.g. Naga Sadows Sith empire is very different to Revan's Sith Empire or Vitiates let alone Palpatine or Krayt in terms of emphasis and key policies.

So could there be a light Sith - given the variety of Sith over time and place I don't see why not arguably Darth Caedus attempted it.

There is a common thread though and that is - based on my interpretation a desire to dominate/mould their environment through whatever means best achieve that - that the dark side is often useful could be considered incidental to Sith Philosophy rather than essential. Having said that the desire to control ones environment is pretty much the essence of sentient civilization.

The Sith perhaps utilize the Dark Side and the Force because it is advantageous rather than essential, you can be Sith without being a force user theoretically depending on the Era that Sith lives in. 

In that sense I Agree with Logos



Anyway that is just a whole bunch of opinion and speculation from reading different EU and Fan Fic.

As to whether they can be a force for Good, I think that is a deeply complex question, as ultimately the effects of each action take centuries if not millennia to be resolved, so determining if an action is good or bad is almost impossible - e.g. did Palpatines Empire and subsequent civil war weaken the galaxy in the face of Yuuzhan Vong, or did it prime the galaxy but filling it with millions of war veterans able better able to take up the fight that was needed - imagine if the Vong had hit Valorums Republic in Episode 1.

A secondary issue is is there even a darkside at all or is the Force one indivisible whole and the 'taint' people feel in the force is just the emotional dye the individual force user has placed on a place, object or act. There is no real definitive answer in the canon or EU, and I think that ambiguity is a good thing.

Can it be a force for good, most probably yes, there is a place in all civilizations for 'creative destruction' and chaos overturning decay and the Sith and darksiders fill that role very well.

All about a certain point of view in the end.

[Shameless Plug - Check out the Fan Fic section for some explorations of these concepts more raders, commentors and contributors always welcome!]

All in all, I think you are right on just about everything you said (I'd have to reread it to see if I spot something I disagree on, but I see no need too). And I must say, Yes! If you want an incredible exploration of this exact topic, read LSG's 'Aether' series (starting with 'Children of the Aether'). He goes very much into depth on a lot of things all involving characters that most of the galaxy could only term as Sith, even though that is not an accurate description.

Maybe quite similar to the 'Jedi Covenant' from the KotOR comic series?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Covenant
"The Covenant hated the Sith with a passion, which in itself was an aberration of the Jedi Code."

I think there's a deeper concept here as well, one that touches on the very definitions of "Good" and "Evil".  Specifically, in my own worldview, what is or is not good is not defined by me, or you, or the universe, or history, or anything in this world.  It is defined by God.   "All my righteousness are as filthy rags" is God's view of me trying to be good.  In His view, in my own power, I cannot be good. 

Forgive me for the bend into "religion" but I wanted to make where I'm coming from on this clear.  The value system in Star Wars isn't exactly compatible with a Judeo-Christian worldview.  Most of my own fanfic is designed to re-align that viewpoint and make it more compatible, but that brings me into direct conflict with a lot of the "certain point of view" arguments that come up when moral issues arise.  That's why the Mak'Tor are believers in the Maker, my SW version of God, and they draw their own directives on Right and Wrong, Good and Evil from that revealed super-natural source, not from the force.  They are truly gray in their approach to the force.  It is just a force, and the bend toward dark or light is dictated by the user's own bent.  They are taught (indoctrinated!) from early on what the Book of the Way teaches concerning the Maker's definitions of Good and Evil and how to best conform to His views on the subject, but its not a perfect insulation against making bad choices or even going very deep into the dark side of the force. 

Ironically, most Mak'Tor would argue that "dark side" powers can certainly be used for Good, due to their philosophy.  But that's very different than saying a Sith can use his power for good.  I would join my Mak'Tor and argue against, not because the dark side power can't be used for good but because what I understand as "Sith" would not do good.  If they're doing good ... they're not Sith. 

But as LSG, Logos and others have pointed out, not all Sith agree on what is or isn't proper behavior for a Sith, so maybe the problem is my own narrow view of what a Sith is.  To me, Sith = Evil.  If that equivalence is broken, then anything is possible.   But to date I can't see where this equivalence has ever been refuted - in canon.

I'm going argue to this with not everything the Sith do is in the interest of the Dark Side. A Sith may actually do something "nice" provided that it furthers their purposes. For instance, after Darth Bane wiped out the Brotherhood of Darkness, everyone believed that the Sith were extinct. He was discovered by some bounty hunters/mercenaries, but instead of killing all of them, he left  one or two survivors. This purpose was to keep the rumor of Sith alive with scattered reports. But being only rumor, it could also be quickly dismissed as such. This helped the Sith to remain hidden for 1,000 years.


Exactly so.


According to the lines Sidious fed Vader, Order 66 would bring about peace. The Jedi upheld a corrupt system of government which should have been replaced centuries ago. The only way to "fix" it was to tear it down in one fell swoop. However, once in power, he showed his true colors.


And now we come to it. The Force simply is. Just as a sword or gun is merely a specialized tool, it's inherent good or evil is only realized in the hands of the wielder. The same is so with the Force. Nobody raised an eyebrow when Anakin mercilessly cut down the Geonosians defending their droid factories. Who's to say they weren't just minimum wage security guards doing their job, and some psycho Jedi comes in and slashes the place up with his nosy girlfriend. But the Jedi are the "good guys", so they couldn't possibly be in the wrong. Right?

---

I find this categorization of Force use comparable to Freud's theory of the psyche. The Sith tend to follow their Id. Raw emotion usually results in great strength. Excitement, anger, fear. All can be characterized with a corresponding spike in adrenaline. But they can be unpredictable, and very hard to control. The Jedi are more in line with the Super Ego; follow the rules, remain calm, and do what is expected of you by society. These two mentalities are oil and water, and are never truly going to coexist. They Greys however, are suspension known as Ego. (I'm shooting the first person who references GotG.) They represent every shade between black and white based on what they bring into their personal blend. Qui Gon was a very light Grey. Ahsoka was a bit darker. Starkiller was darker still.

This leads into intent vs action.  While the act of leaving weaker opponents alive can be seen as a "nice" action...his intent was very much of the Dark Side.