Saber Forum

Way of the Saber => Saber Combat => Topic started by: Master Rel on May 31, 2012, 05:41:41 PM



Title: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Rel on May 31, 2012, 05:41:41 PM
Form I: Shii-Cho
Form II: Makashi
Form III: Soresu
Form IV: Ataru
Form V: Shien/Djem So
Form VI: Niman
Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad

The basic seven...there are many more considerations...after all it is a grand scape of a setting with many cultures and races to consider.

But a recent thread got me thinking on this well traveled subject, in particular my dedication towards Soresu.

The ideal that the evolved version or the recognized advanced style...based upon a few bits from a couple movies and a few lines here and there in various books...the defensive style that best represents what the Jedi stand for in a struggle situation, deal with the aggression until the issue is resolved rather than meet it head on with equal or greater aggression.

I am just a guy, same as any of y'all, I have a vision of what this general ideal of what my favored style represents.

I am of course a supporter of the Jedi cause, as it was intended...representing the light and the good nature of the force, resisting the temptations and influences of the dark side of the evil aspect of the force, and defending against corruption.

This is not another thread to debate the good of the Jedi and the evil of the sith...rather I hope to consider only the light saber techniques that are most attractive to you and if different to your real world LED sabering.

*****

For me, Soresu is still my chosen style in context and in philosophy.

In reality my vision and my practice of the same is quite different than most of what I am seeing out there.

This got me thinking, is there room for vastly different interpretations?

Surely there is, but shouldn't kung fu look like kung fu, even if from different schools of thought and practice...Southern crane style compared to stone throw monkey is vastly different, yet the viewer would most likely say "ah kung fu".

Judo is a grappling style
TKD is a kicking style
Kung Fu is a artistic style
Karate is a hard striking style
etc.

But each of these is more than their simple defining elements...certainly the same is true for the fantasy considerations of light saber styles/techniques.

In our real world when one studies a particular style, such as Shorin-ryu, and reaches an instructors ranking...goes out on their own...and finds that certain elements seem to work better in a slightly different arrangement...changes the foundation style a bit...when taught, this modified version usually gets another extension to the name, such as the branches that extended beyond the original art...

Maybe this is where we are now.

To better represent the variety and application of the base technique and thus style.

Certainly at this moment my Soresu, representing the ideals of the same...trying to keep the flavor of the concept while carrying it over to real world LED sabering...is vastly different then those others I have seen.

At current time I play my Soresu my closer to the vest as a modified Kendo...calm, focus, attention to form, stoic, and then bursts of movement to close the distance, disarm, or dispatch as appropriate.

Letting the other player commit, draw them to over commit, and deal with the situation.

Maybe my application of the same is more akin to one of the other techniques?

Hence the other potential names...50:50 Soresu and Niman for example, called (for example) Eclipsed Moon (representing the yin and yang aspects).

Just saying, maybe it is time to move beyond a single name...develop a structure of combined styles.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Nero Attoru on May 31, 2012, 05:59:11 PM
Neat idea Relmeob.  If you'd like, just to get a more numerical idea of things, I could add a poll with the different Forms as options.  People could still post here, but we would also see a breakdown of which forms are most popular/utilized here on the forum.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Rel on May 31, 2012, 06:19:57 PM
Indeed and once completed we could work on some combined forms/names to apply to the popular choices and thus potential combined natures  :)


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Nero Attoru on May 31, 2012, 06:24:01 PM
Indeed and once completed we could work on some combined forms/names to apply to the popular choices and thus potential combined natures  :)

Definitely!  I'll add the basics for now, and later on we can elaborate.

Note - I'm adding them each separately, so Forms like VII which have variants (Juyo and Vaapad) will be listed as separate entities.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Darth Nonymous on May 31, 2012, 06:36:00 PM
I ,as you might imagine, have a bit of a differnt spin on it.

For me this is how it breaks down, and how the Terra Prime material is going to tend toward:

The seven forms as described do not indicate much of separate styles as they are a means of progression. This is how I have been adapting the concepts.

Shii-Cho: is basics: stances, targets, strikes, parries, and basic combat strategy

Makashi: refinement of engagement with other weapons. distancing, reversals, movement, attack and retreat. control and precision.

Soresu: defensive technique repository. maximizing defensive capability through coverage, footwork, and endurance.

Ataru: agressive technique repository. Maximizing offensive capability through jumping, turning and running.

Shien/Djem So: Changing from aggressive attack and defensive strategy. Learning the dynamics of being able to change techniques at will.

Niman: Balancing the extremes of the previous forms. Loking at the formula abstractly and integrating those ideas into practice.

Juyo: The addition of intent, psychology, visualization, meditative aspects and creativity. Learning to let go and react in combat rather than try to predict or control. Setting the atmosphere and taking the initiative by one's own volition.


Now as one goes through the progression, they will focus on one or the other formula as a concentration. It seems unlikely that any of these forms would be isolated, but if they were, it would be interesting to see the concepts of the others interpreted with a single mindset. Soresu will attract some practioners because of it's philosophy. Some of those people will stick with it, or grow weary of the training and look for more material. Some of those will then later return to their original focus after a 'look around' and gaining more experience.

Quote
This got me thinking, is there room for vastly different interpretations?

Surely there is, but shouldn't kung fu look like kung fu, even if from different schools of thought and practice...Southern crane style compared to stone throw monkey is vastly different, yet the viewer would most likely say "ah kung fu".

Judo is a grappling style
TKD is a kicking style
Kung Fu is a artistic style
Karate is a hard striking style


Interesting that you would use kung fu as the example. The term "kung fu" doesn't really even mean martial art. It is an English term to define a group of martial arts that originate in China. SO if that's the level of detail we are talking about , fine. But you analogy starts to have problems with arts like Shuai Jiao, Ziranmen, and Jeet Kune Do. None of which look like wha most people define as "kung fu".

Also, the descriptions you offer are subjective in nature with respect to Kung Fu and Karate. TKD and Judo have rules which constrain the way they are performed incompletion or sparring. It is easy to say Judo=grappling and TKD =kicking.

But, Kung fu and "artistic" style does not give much of a description. If one sees ,say a San Da fight they would be unlikely to say "look they are fighting with kung fu!" as opposed to them seeing a kickboxing match and saying "hey look at them kickboxing". Same with Shuai Jiao and Judo, which are almost identical in technical aspects. I imagine that if you took away the GI and the Jacket and it was two guys going at it, it would be a rare person to be able to tell which one was "Judo" and which was "Shuai Jiao"

You interpretation will be a welcome addition and will add to the landscape, but I worry that we are shuffling a bit close to "this is the REAL style/form" type of thing which plagues the martial art world so much. Everyone's input is valuable. That is the great hint about lightsabering; NONE of it's real. We have carte blanche! There is a freedom here which is unprecedented in the martial arts world.

Who cares if my Djem So doesn't look like General Sun's? Maybe they are so different they don't even look related. Well, they aren't. They are two unique perspectives within a greater landscape. Ideal is subjective and everyone has their own ideal.

We have a saying in Chinese martial art "Nobody cares what the punch looked like when it knocks you out."



Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Lucien Kane on May 31, 2012, 07:30:16 PM
I favor a mix of Juyo, Ataru, Makashi, and Soresu.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Rel on May 31, 2012, 08:38:21 PM
In a LED saber forum with mixed backgrounds, ages, experience levels, and especially interest it should be reasonable to express a term such as TKD to initiate a point of conversation without noting righ off the bat that the actual style in question is hapkido which has elements borrowed to develop the sport of TKD.

Those with more interest in the sideline of the particular real world style, I am one of those, will know to ask if there is more...but the casual form member can continue on with the subject at hand which is light saber techniques.

I do like and appreciate the thought process that 1-7 are stages of training but we should be careful that this does not become color belt chasing with 7 having to be better and a stronger technique than 1 because it is higher on the staircase.

Kung fu is a sloppy title but it is also 100% recognizable for the regular joe or Jane who may go their whole lives without more interest than that there is Kung fu.

Noting Kung fu as artistic was done as an example of surface differences to the average forum member and a compliment to the general grace and style seen with the many many schools of Chinese martial arts known to the world as Kung fu.

It will be interesting to see this thread develop and grow as we all share our interest and knowledge.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Infantrymyers on May 31, 2012, 08:45:03 PM
what am i the only Ataru?  ;D


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Lucien Kane on May 31, 2012, 08:49:50 PM
Yeah and my approach on developing the seven forms of lightsaber combat is that they are their own styles of martial arts... but they are unique in that they have built off of each other. Shii Cho was developed before the invention of the lightsaber. Then Makashi was developed for sword to sword combat. Each form has been developed for specific purposes... but no form is the win all beat all form

That is because of the differences between tactics and techniques... which I will be posting a video on soon.

Nothing wrong with the differing opinions... just stating where I am coming from in my research and development.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Nero Attoru on May 31, 2012, 08:51:44 PM
I do like and appreciate the thought process that 1-7 are stages of training but we should be careful that this does not become color belt chasing with 7 having to be better and a stronger technique than 1 because it is higher on the staircase.

I like Master Nonymous's idea because it's new, and does have some serious merit (Form I is established as the beginner's form, with Form VII being a much more advanced style).  That said, Relmeob has a point - I have always regarded the Forms as a sort of "rock paper scissor" concept.  Yes, each one is an advancement on the previous, but in that advancement they give some key features up.  To give you an example, you move to Makashi and gain the control and dueling concepts which allow for very skilled one on one dueling, but give some ability to engage multiple opponents as well as blaster wielding foes.

Of course, to clarify what I took from Master Nonymous's post, I felt like the advancement had one remain formless, using the Forms as a teaching device rather than a style classification.  In this way it makes a lot of sense!


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Darth Nonymous on May 31, 2012, 11:23:38 PM
I do not mean to say that these forms are "levels". They are stages of development. Compartments for specific skills and ideas. The first three (maybe four) in our system are required-but only the basic formula. The entirety of the exercises etc. do not have to be learned, just the basics of those core components. So there is no set way or order you need to learn them (Shii-cho is the exception) but simply have a familiarity with the concepts each one teaches. You need all three of the first concept, i believe for good weapons art; defense, striking, maneuvering, and strategizing. Then from there it's all a matter of how you want to refine it.

Quote
Kung fu is a sloppy title but it is also 100% recognizable for the regular joe or Jane who may go their whole lives without more interest than that there is Kung fu


I did mention that in my post. My point is we are not speaking at the normal everyday joe level. We are speaking and talking about high concepts of how much should be recognizable in a fight or in usage. If you see a kung fu guy training, MAYBE you will recognize it as chinese. But as every weekend class shows me, people usually call some of what I do Karate, TKD, or whatever martial art they are familiar with.

My example of Shuai Jiao still stands:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8r2C5EvEc0# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8r2C5EvEc0#)

I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone would categorize that as "kung fu" based on how it looks.

This is also a good example of what we are doing with the Terra Prime System and Shii-cho. Shuai Jiao is the core of all Chinese Martial art, som much that the term is used to mean throwing applications in most schools. For example, in our Taiji (another kung fu style that does not look like kung fu) We have three categories of technique: Shuai (throwing), Chin na (locking), and Daquan (striking). There are those who study only Shuai Jiao and it is an art inane of it's self. It is also incorperpated in to  hundreds of other arts.

As far as cannon goes, if these styles are as old as they claim, they would be literally thousands of variations on a theme. Some of them could look completely different but be based on the same principles.

That is how the real martial arts developed as well. From piece of previous arts. None of it coming from a vacuum.

So there is no set way or order you need to learn them (Shii-cho is the exception) but simply have a familiarity with the concepts each one teaches.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Rel on June 01, 2012, 02:15:22 AM
Shuai Jiao is a lot of fun to watch, that sort of format for open wrestling always appeals to my favored Judo...good stuff.

I am looking forward the remaining year and see what all comes of the collective efforts   ;D


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: MrJediMan on June 01, 2012, 02:30:18 AM
According to what i've been told, I'm a Djem So'er. I want to get into Staffs and Dual weilding, but my Budget does not allow for that at the moment.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Solinus on June 01, 2012, 06:29:07 AM
I voted Shii-Cho, because that is what I am focusing on right now. All of you here are experienced beyond what I can imagine. I'm just learning. I need to build that strong foundation, and Shii-Cho is doing that for me. I later plan to move into Soresu, simply because I've been told (and I have seen it as well), that I tend to wait for the incoming strike and react to it. I'm more of a defensive fighter.

As for combining several types of forms and creating a new name for it, I personally don't like it. I don't like change. Never have. But it will be interesting to see what sorts of names you guys come up with. The creative part is cool.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master VorNach on June 01, 2012, 08:33:11 AM
Of course, to clarify what I took from Master Nonymous's post, I felt like the advancement had one remain formless, using the Forms as a teaching device rather than a style classification.  In this way it makes a lot of sense!

In an attempt to summarize a little bit, lightsaber combat is the whole of the martial art with the 7 Forms being overlapping skill sets that combine to become the art of saber combat. Not all of the 7 Forms are needed to become proficient but there is a set of basic skills which are needed. This is true in any martial art a person studies and which can be seen in the basics of the early Forms.

This does not line up with how some of the canon history is written (with the limited amount of reading I've done) but from my perspective it makes more sense. Each of the Forms as presented is somewhat limited in scope, based on the information that's available to us. When you take them as a collection of skill sets they become more comprehensive as a group.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Volund Starfire on June 01, 2012, 02:11:51 PM
The lightsaber form that I most favor would have to be the Determination Form, The Way of the Sarlaac, also known as Form I: Shii-Cho.

Everyone says that it is a beginners form, but I do not believe that it is entirely a beginners form.  Iaijutsu, Aikido, Kendo, Jenjutsu, and several other Japanese martial arts all begin by teaching the exact same things on how to use the sword.  However, even the most basic concepts soon become masterful with practice.

I am an Aikidoka, a practitioner of Aikido.  Using the bokken work and katas that I have learned in my art, I am able to apply them to the flow and movement styles of Shii-Cho.  Sure, it looks basic, but in my dojo, I taught bokken and jo and enjoyed actually dueling a Kendoka and beating him by one point (I blame dumb luck… um… I mean the Force).

I am in the process of modifying General Sun’s Shii-Cho slightly, much as Master Nonymous has, to include the Aikido moves and movements.  I’ll post it when I get it down and filmed.  Additionally, I plan to modify it big-time to include a saberpike (incorporating much of Jogi I—the Aikido ko kata).

Even though it is the basic form, does not mean that it cannot be advanced.  In the Star Wars Universe, Kit Fisto was a Form I master.  I plan on attaining the same level in my training.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Darth Nonymous on June 01, 2012, 02:57:54 PM
The lightsaber form that I most favor would have to be the Determination Form, The Way of the Sarlaac, also known as Form I: Shii-Cho.

Everyone says that it is a beginners form, but I do not believe that it is entirely a beginners form.  Iaijutsu, Aikido, Kendo, Jenjutsu, and several other Japanese martial arts all begin by teaching the exact same things on how to use the sword.  However, even the most basic concepts soon become masterful with practice.

I am an Aikidoka, a practitioner of Aikido.  Using the bokken work and katas that I have learned in my art, I am able to apply them to the flow and movement styles of Shii-Cho.  Sure, it looks basic, but in my dojo, I taught bokken and jo and enjoyed actually dueling a Kendoka and beating him by one point (I blame dumb luck… um… I mean the Force).

I am in the process of modifying General Sun’s Shii-Cho slightly, much as Master Nonymous has, to include the Aikido moves and movements.  I’ll post it when I get it down and filmed.  Additionally, I plan to modify it big-time to include a saberpike (incorporating much of Jogi I—the Aikido ko kata).

Even though it is the basic form, does not mean that it cannot be advanced.  In the Star Wars Universe, Kit Fisto was a Form I master.  I plan on attaining the same level in my training.
I agree that Shii Cho is not necessarily a beginners form. Bu tit is the best place to start and can therefore form the best foundation for the others.

I have posted a video of my practice of Shii-Cho (the freeform) as evidence of this. A simple style can be taken to great heights.

A a side note, I have used Sun's form merely as a visual idea of what folks think of when they think of Shii-Cho. The set is actually adapted from two military weapons sets, (one for long sword and one for Da dao). We even do something very close to it as the introduction to Chinese longsword.

The first section looks almost identical because it is the basic way we start such sets out: Downward strike both sides, horizontal strike both sides, and upward strikes both sides. The last little flourish at the end of the form I adapted a bit and threw in there as a reference to Sun's or at least give people some anchor to identify with it.

 I plan to do a video showing where a lot of my stuff comes from using the actual weapons. I thought it might give some perspective.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: DarthThantos on June 09, 2012, 04:52:01 AM
I voted for Vappad because whenever im dueling, i have to get my emotions in there.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: BenPass on June 09, 2012, 03:08:02 PM
TBH I don't really know where I fall. I do know that when I use my Dark Prophecy, I tend to lean towards Makashi. It just seems so much better with the weight/length. Now with my Arbiter, traditional great sword combat so whatever that falls under.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Nero Attoru on June 12, 2012, 01:20:47 PM
TBH I don't really know where I fall. I do know that when I use my Dark Prophecy, I tend to lean towards Makashi. It just seems so much better with the weight/length. Now with my Arbiter, traditional great sword combat so whatever that falls under.

Yeah man, the Prophecy series is good for that.  Works extremely well with the shorter blades (32" is perfect).  Which is ironic, considering it's inspired by the hilt Anakin has in AOTC (he's a Shien stylist in that movie IIRC).

The longer hilts like the Arbiter have their own perks too, as you noted.  More power and control really, since you get more leverage out of the hilt.  You could probably even utilize a two handed variant of Makashi with such a saber.  Hmmm... a bit of inspiration there...


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: KashiAtaru on June 12, 2012, 01:54:45 PM
After studying the forms extensively, and dueling a little to see what kinds of actions I perform, I think I use Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, and maybe a little of Ataru in my style of fighting. I rely heavily on Shii-Cho for attack as I am mainly a two handed opponent, I like to wield heavy weapons and such things like HG blades, but when I defend I seem to go into a one-handed grip often utilizing Makashi. I like to use Soresu's circle of protection often as a flourish, but many times as momentum for an attack or to block a light attack. And every once in a while I seem to go into an Ataru mindset with the acrobatics and such. I don't know, just putting my two cents here.

The longer hilts like the Arbiter have their own perks too, as you noted.  More power and control really, since you get more leverage out of the hilt.  You could probably even utilize a two handed variant of Makashi with such a saber.  Hmmm... a bit of inspiration there...

@Nero, being a fencer I use Makashi a lot. I'll try a two handed freeform variant and upload a video for you to review. What do you think?-Kashi


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Nero Attoru on June 12, 2012, 02:02:18 PM
@Nero, being a fencer I use Makashi a lot. I'll try a two handed freeform variant and upload a video for you to review. What do you think?-Kashi

You could certainly do that if you'd like, it's something I intend to experiment with.  As a fellow fencer, my natural inclination is to use a single hand in combat, so trying out that particular style with a solid two handed grip could be very interesting, and fun!


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Darth Nonymous on June 12, 2012, 02:52:27 PM
You could certainly do that if you'd like, it's something I intend to experiment with.  As a fellow fencer, my natural inclination is to use a single hand in combat, so trying out that particular style with a solid two handed grip could be very interesting, and fun!
I am obviously from a different cultural lineage, but I believe weapons development and technique are pretty universal. At least I haven't seen anything different yet.

That being said, I might be able to offer a little advice for integrating a two handed grip if you are coming from a one handed. We  use a system of two hand assists during practice. Often we use a Chuan beng Jian or "long hilt sword". We then start to integrate two hand assists with certain techniques (e.g a down ward chop, Sai in lightsaber parlance).

 it starts to address what i feel is the primary issue when switching from one handed to two, body positioning. It's difficult to get used to what feels like being totally open and square to the opponent when you are used to being able to turn and line up nice and narrow. The two hand assist I have found to be a good stepping stone. You can stay in your customary ready stance and only "open" when attacking.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Nero Attoru on June 12, 2012, 03:20:22 PM
I am obviously from a different cultural lineage, but I believe weapons development and technique are pretty universal. At least I haven't seen anything different yet.

That being said, I might be able to offer a little advice for integrating a two handed grip if you are coming from a one handed. We  use a system of two hand assists during practice. Often we use a Chuan beng Jian or "long hilt sword". We then start to integrate two hand assists with certain techniques (e.g a down ward chop, Sai in lightsaber parlance).

 it starts to address what i feel is the primary issue when switching from one handed to two, body positioning. It's difficult to get used to what feels like being totally open and square to the opponent when you are used to being able to turn and line up nice and narrow. The two hand assist I have found to be a good stepping stone. You can stay in your customary ready stance and only "open" when attacking.

That's an excellent point Master Nonymous.  The squaring of the body really does throw me off a bit, especially since the en garde position has your torso nearly the opposite.

And I agree to an extent about the technique being universal, but the actual muscle control part is a big stepping stone as well.  Controlling a weapon with two hands has you operating the blade using the two hands in tandem as a lever, whereas the kind of one handed technique used in fencing stresses fine control using the fingers and wrist of a single hand.  It's not insurmountable by any means, it's just an interesting new way to approach it IMO... like a mix of Makashi and Shii-Cho perhaps.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Solinus on June 12, 2012, 04:57:19 PM
... I think I use Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, and maybe a little of Ataru in my style of fighting ...


Would this not fall under the Niman style?

Quoted from wookieepedia:

Quote
This fighting style was a hybrid martial art created by effectively combining elements of all the preceding lightsaber forms into a single, generalized form.


Original source here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VI:_Niman (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VI:_Niman)


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: FauxSaix on June 13, 2012, 08:39:28 AM
I've always been passive-aggressive, if aggressive at all.  Soresu, with a touch of Shii-cho.  I've always played the tactician, and been highly reactive in combat, with good reflexes.  But I'm not one for projecting my will, as it were.  Once I've read my opponent's technique and worn them down a little, a precise and basic strike will find its opening.  maybe some makashi if the opponent's defense is tight.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: KashiAtaru on June 14, 2012, 03:12:40 PM
Would this not fall under the Niman style?

Quoted from wookieepedia:

Original source here: [url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VI:_Niman[/url] ([url]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VI:_Niman[/url])


Technically... Yes. But many times I'll just use two forms in a duel, or three, rarely all forms in a single bout. When I actually use all these forms, then, I guess i practice Niman. Thanks for pointing this out Solinus! I can now adhere to a form with a name. lol-Kashi


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Solinus on June 15, 2012, 07:03:24 AM
Technically... Yes. But many times I'll just use two forms in a duel, or three, rarely all forms in a single bout. When I actually use all these forms, then, I guess i practice Niman. Thanks for pointing this out Solinus! I can now adhere to a form with a name. lol-Kashi

Ok, so from what I understand of Niman, is that it's a form created from other forms. Not all forms, but from bits and pieces of the others. So while you may not use all forms, I would assume that if you mix techniques from different forms, it would be considered Niman.

Either way, I like it.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master VorNach on June 15, 2012, 08:05:02 AM
Ok, so from what I understand of Niman, is that it's a form created from other forms. Not all forms, but from bits and pieces of the others. So while you may not use all forms, I would assume that if you mix techniques from different forms, it would be considered Niman.

There has been a discussion elsewhere about each of the 7 Forms being skill sets of a single martial art (light saber fighting), where the emphasis an individual takes is dependent on the practitioners body structure, background interests and opponent. I think I have more to say about this but I'm really tired right now and am not putting together the coherent thoughts I'd like to present. More later.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Keln Lokin on June 15, 2012, 02:06:39 PM
Ataru, all the way. It's a very aggressive and active form, most always on the offensive. I started my training in swordplay as a fencer, and I've always preferred to move a lot and set my opponent off balance, while dodging attacks and trying to strike quickly.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Solinus on June 15, 2012, 07:15:05 PM
There has been a discussion elsewhere about each of the 7 Forms being skill sets of a single martial art (light saber fighting), where the emphasis an individual takes is dependent on the practitioners body structure, background interests and opponent. I think I have more to say about this but I'm really tired right now and am not putting together the coherent thoughts I'd like to present. More later.

I definitely can't wait to read what you have to say about this topic. I think I personally may end up favoring this style overall, but I need a clear understanding of what it is. As it stands, I am still very much interested in Shii-Cho and Soresu.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master VorNach on June 16, 2012, 08:46:43 AM
I definitely can't wait to read what you have to say about this topic.

Alright Solinus, here you go.   ;D

There was a very lively discussion in another thread, which I cannot find at this moment, as to whether each of the 7 Forms were martial arts unto themselves or if each was a collection of skills and principles that would build on the others so that by combining several forms you would have a comprehensive martial art system (lightsaber combat). Compelling arguments were made for both cases but my perspective is pretty firmly the latter of the two concepts.

Each practitioner would have a selection of basic skills that are all fairly similar however as they progressed in their training the overall fighting style would begin to change and they put different emphasis into different principles. It's important to have a range of skills and principals to draw on because there's no such thing as a predictable fight.

Each person is going to develop their own particular version of the martial art they study, regardless of which martial art it is, because of variables in our physical build, psychological reactions,  backgrounds, experiences, beliefs, convictions, etc. Which means our particular approach is going to have to adapt to the particular approach of every other single individual we cross blades with.

Oh and speaking of blades that too has an impact on how you'll operate in a combat setting;
Quote from: BenPass
"...when I use my Dark Prophecy, I tend to lean towards Makashi. It just seems so much better with the weight/length. Now with my Arbiter, traditional great sword combat so whatever that falls under."
  Variations in weapon construction can dramatically change how your style is represented. (In the hopefully not too far flung future, after I've got some Djem So videos posted with a 2 handed grip I'll do some samples of a 1 handed grip as well).

And not just what kind of blade but what the environment as a whole is as well; temperature, footing, humidity, altitude, structures, observers, etc.

I haven't voted in the poll because, for reasons I've just gone on about, I don't consistently use one particular Form but combine principles and techniques to suit the situation. And to respond to the comment before it comes up this is not, to my mind, Niman. In the model I am operating the Form Niman encapsulates two general ideas: The process of learning how to incorporate multiple concepts and a somewhat more psychological lesson of calm awareness and attentiveness:  "Ultimately, Niman's success in combat was dependent on a practitioner's intuition and creativity in combat, rather than the rote responses common to the other forms. "

Remember, ymmv.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: KashiAtaru on June 17, 2012, 04:42:11 AM
Ok, so from what I understand of Niman, is that it's a form created from other forms. Not all forms, but from bits and pieces of the others. So while you may not use all forms, I would assume that if you mix techniques from different forms, it would be considered Niman.

Either way, I like it.

As far as my knowledge of Niman goes, yes that is correct. Im certain the Masters could tell you more than I can though. As far as mixing techniques you have to mix techniques from ALL the forms Niman draws from. If you don't, it is not Niman but leaning more towards free styling which really is not a form.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Darth Rifter on June 24, 2012, 03:05:11 AM
I don't know because I have never taken martial arts, nor have I dueled much. I don't know they differences in the forms. When I do duel, it is strictly choregraphed, nothing random(too dangerous). I don't know many moves when dueling. I'd love to learn more, but there are no lightsaber clubs near me. I'd love to take martial arts, but don't think I could since I can't move my right foot really at all, and have to wear an AFO.

SO, I don't have a preferred form for the reasons above.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Rel on June 24, 2012, 04:44:29 AM
I don't know because I have never taken martial arts, nor have I dueled much. I don't know they differences in the forms. When I do duel, it is strictly choregraphed, nothing random(too dangerous). I don't know many moves when dueling. I'd love to learn more, but there are no lightsaber clubs near me. I'd love to take martial arts, but don't think I could since I can't move my right foot really at all, and have to wear an AFO.

SO, I don't have a preferred form for the reasons above.

An AFO brace could and would be a challenge for sure.

I would think to focus on forms with stable footwork, using the rigid nature of the right foot as a pivot point.

The basic side facing stance, putting your left foot forward, and using the right rear position as an anchor...focus more on upper body work.

Any instructor would welcome your situation as a opportunity to find the best way to use what you have, chin up.

There may be a decent school or class nearby.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: DarthProdigal on February 19, 2021, 05:03:19 AM
I very much enjoyed reading everything posted here, and the various interpretations of the VII Forms mentioned as well. I feel I'd have to explain to a small degree my view before commenting on which I'd identify as a go to style personally.

I'm inclined to agree more so ideologically with the stance of each Form representing a style of lightsaber combat. Though yes they can be viewed as a progression in SW history, they were adaptations in theory. Thus they do lean toward different elements, thought processes, and movements to an extent. This is atleast my take on the matter of the VII Forms as I implement and grasp them as concepts.

To Master VorNach's last post I must fervently agree. It's very much a core principle of how I duel as well. The situation, weapon, and opponent tend toward altering which Form I'm prone to implement. I'm going to make a KOTOR reference (because I'm a gamer at heart, but also because that was my 1st experience with the Forms thus most ingrained) the way the Forms are selected and transitioned through in that game is how I more often than not see myself use them. It's the most appropriate example I can use to give a mental picture of how I operate and why I agree with Master VorNach's view so intently.

If I had to pick a Form I mostly rely on or use as a "default setting" it'd be Djem So, thus that's how I voted as well. Power strikes, forceful parries, and full bodied action and punishment behind blows in legitimate dueling (with full armor). But I'd quickly switch to more of Makashi if/when Djem So is less effective or a situation seems to warrant it instead. Going for a much more efficient targeting of point scoring/ending things. Much more reserved in power or stamina use, and finding/searching for openings more than attempting to create them or overwhelm and opponent. Yet at other instances I've drawn on the wellspring of emotion to unleash something far more similar to Juyo in a very intent burst of fueled and driven combat. Not to say by any means that at that point I'd lost control, more so feeling everything in the moment and channeling that into the parries and strikes while one with the combat at hand, reveling in it but not lost to it. I find this the most difficult to explain but feel that's a basic representation.

So Djem So, Makashi, and Juyo primarily (in that order of importance/implementation likelihood I suppose) but switching as situations shift. And as stated with weapon use, because I have different lengths of blades, hilts, and a saber staff. It's also been said that what you've previously trained in influences what Form you're using or your view of the Forms. This I also hold to be true and agree with heavily. Glad to have found this topic, and simply contributed my chosen Form(s) to it. It certainly proved an enjoyable read.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: PsychoSith on February 19, 2021, 05:33:50 AM
Where my love for directed momentum and power may lead me to favor Vapaad, my romanticizing dueling and Rapiers means I gotta put my vote in for Makashi.


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: SirLiftaLot on February 20, 2021, 12:59:07 AM
You know, I really do not have enough actual combat experience with lightsabers to say anything of myself here with absolute certainty, but I do have other forms of sparring or combat experience to draw from, primarily Taekwondo and wrestling. Seeing as how I see a lot of similarities in Maul's combat style with what I strive for, likely due to his Shaolin Kung Fu background being more relatable to my Taekwondo background than, say, Fencing or Kendo is, I'd say that Form VII fits the bill well. I wouldn't say I become totally fueled by rage, but Vaapad should be a good fit overall I'd wager, as I do know I like to use strong emotions for fuel, both when I did compete, and now when I lift weights. But I would also say that I would try not to be dependent solely on any single form. As Bruce Lee said, "adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own."


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Master Resolute on February 22, 2021, 04:10:16 PM
Niman. To me , after the basics are covered from each form. That's all you need. Forget the fancy stuff. Plus, I feel like that form is always in " Student " mode and will adapt more often. " There is no Box " , " The way of no Way. " Forget that " diplomat form " nonsense too. Exar Kun is the prime example. If you focus only on your training, and nothing else, you are a force to be reckoned with. That goes for ALL of the forms. The individuals training method is the most important factor, the Form is just piece of the puzzle.

I will be dual wielding as well. Probably a QRC attachment too.....

So....Niman / Jar'Kai blend with some Echani Martial Arts in there....


Title: Re: Which style do you most favor?
Post by: Hulk10 on June 19, 2021, 06:22:02 AM
I think I like Djem So the best. Its a great all around form. You have the strength of defense like Soresu but with better offensive attacks. However I also like the Vaapad form.