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Author Topic: Form VI: Niman - Another Perspective  (Read 19608 times)
Tanq
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« on: September 19, 2012, 10:48:54 AM »

Just want to throw out some ideas that have been floating around in my head for a few years regarding this most underrated form. Please bare with the long discourse.

What Is Written About Form VI

In the seminal Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat, Niman was described as a lightsaber form that combined elements of all preceding styles into one form, implying that there were no significant advantages or disadvantages, blending concepts from all styles but being master of none. On top of that, all Niman practitioners present in the Geonosis arena were said to have been killed, implying that the form was insufficiently demanding to address intense combat situations. Ouch, talk about a good setup for a bad rep. Even from official descriptions it is set up to be the worst designed system of combat of the orthodox 7. Just take a look at what's written in The Jedi Path:

Quote
While it is true that it would be nearly impossible for a Form VI adherent to defeat an expert in Makashi, this doesn't mean that the style isn't useful for facing down criminals and thugs. Thus for Jedi Consulars...it is a form easily mastered. To compensate for the relaxed focus on bladework, Form VI encourages integrating Force powers into combat...


At this point, even if I were a Padawan hoping to become a Consular I would've just gone through Ataru or Soresu 101 and moved on to other studies. Even Shii-cho, the style that Jedi Initiates learn, is written to sound more awesome than that. Niman is written like the odd uncle that people acknowledge at the family table, but don't really have much affection for.

Counter-Points to Established Writings

Some thoughts, from both in-universe and out-of-universe perspectives, regarding the above points, because they're the 800-lb gorillas in the room:

1) I find the concept that X style will beat out Y style to be ludicrous. Any slacker who fights someone who's had lots of experience will be guaranteed to lose, but that should not be an issue with the style. A combat style is a strategic framework aimed at effectively resolving a hostile situation. I don't really know of any real-world, long-lived codified combat styles that intentionally half-asses its approaches or its training regimens. As an aside, I disagree with how the Jedi Path author put Juyo in its own section labeled, "Advanced Lightsaber Techniques," as if the other lightsaber forms didn't have advanced concepts as well.

2) I disagree that there is an in-universe need to establish a form with less stringent training regimens than other forms. Shii-cho, known for its "simplicity" and straightforwardness, a form which all Padawans had a foundation in, should logically have been the go-to style for further study for Consulars who don't want to learn more extensive bladework. Shii-cho, as evident in Kit Fisto's interpretation, has already been battle-tested and proven effective, if not adequate, for millenia, against swordsmen and gunners. There really isn't a need for yet another combat style that has more lax training requirements. Oh, and yes, about the "Way of the Rancor" moniker...Rancors don't seem so lazy to me. A more adequate description for them would be "efficient killing machines." Hardly an apt creature to represent the concepts of such a mediocre form, if we were to go by the conventional descriptions.

3) The issue of mastery. In The Jedi Path Niman was stated to be easy to master. Yet Cin Drallig stated that Niman mastery requires 10 years of dedicated practice. These two statements are incongruous. Either Niman is easy to master, or it is not. So either Jedi Battlemaster Skarch Vaunk doesn't know what he's talking about or Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig is pulling stuff out of his waste disposal chute.

4) Martial arts is not an RPG game where you assign a limited set of attribute points. A martial system that covers all bases does not make it a "jack of all trades, master of none" style. It makes it a comprehensive style that addresses all tactical situations, providing more tools to use for the appropriate situations. How good one is in the style depends on how efficiently they practice and execute. One would think that, for a comprehensive sword art, the curriculum is long by virtue of having to cover so much ground.

5) As a consequence, for those who are not so dedicated in their training, a comprehensive system provides a good primer for basic skills, whereas true mastery takes much more dedication. You get out what you put in, true for any other kind of training.

6) It should be noted that Niman was first utilized amongst Force users in ancient times, formidably, by the Legions of Lettow, who in turn adopted the concepts from the elite guards of the Kashi Mer dynasty, one of the early civilizations that discovered the Force. The combatives were eventually adopted into the Jedi Order after the First Schism. By the time of KotOR II, Niman had become a well-developed and established combat system. It had survived centuries of all-out warfare prior to the disastrous showing at the Geonosis arena (at least since the Old Sith Wars) and could evidently be frightening in the hands of someone like Exar Kun.

7) Niman's pure root being Soresu. This is contradictory to the history established above, as the Jedi Order had incorporated Niman into their curriculum after the First Great Schism (24,500 BBY), presumably way before the proliferation of blaster technology that would lead to the development of Soresu. We know this because the first demonstrated widespread use of "frozen blaster" tech (the development of lightsabers) was not until the Second Great Schism in 7,000 BBY - when Shii-Cho and Makashi came into full bloom. So that's 17,500 years in between unaccounted for, in which Niman was already in the Jedi Order's repertoire.

8 ) Niman as a gateway to Jar'Kai. If we base our understanding of Niman off of what's already been published, we are to expect that the lax bladework requirements of Niman is supposed to open the way to dual bladework. Yet we have seen evidence of other lightsaber forms utilizing dual blade tactics, notably Shii-cho, Makashi, and Ataru (I would include Soresu as well, since Kenobi has employed dual blades with a Soresu combative mindset in The Clone Wars). But if we are to believe that the most noteworthy thing about Niman is that it incorporates Force attacks into its combinations, how does that factor in as being part of a foundation for a swordfighting-centric style like the traditional Niman/Jar'Kai that was adapted from the Yovshin Swordsmen and Kashi elites?


To address all these points, it would be pertinent to establish a rationale for why a combat system would be needed beyond Form V. I'd written some of this up 3 years ago on the SWTOR forums, but since their forum was wiped on game release day I have to start all over again Sad. I wrote this keeping in mind that others, like Craig Page, other esteemed members of this forum, Jensaarai1 on YT, and ProfessorWalsh on the Bioware TOR forums had tread this ground before. This is my theory crafting, some of it does not completely falling in line with what has been written in compendiums and manual.

The Evolution of Lightsaber Combat Based on the Nature of the Weapon

The invention of the lightsaber as a portable weapon revolutionized melee warfare. A sword whose blade could cut through most known materials, it made an excellent siege weapon and could counter most other solid melee weapons on the battlefield. Chances are, it could probably vaporize solid munitions rounds on contact. However, due to the nature of the blade, there is a substantial gyroscopic effect that requires great dexterity, proprioceptive sensitivity, and spatial awareness at a level that most non-Force sensitives have difficulty having mastery over.

Thus Shii-cho came to be - as the first battlefield lightsaber art, it utilized straightforward, sweeping cuts to clear the field using primarily a two-handed grip to control the gyroscopic effect.

Naturally, to face this new technology, swordsmen had to devise a counter. One way was to fight fire with fire - Shii-cho technique against Shii-cho technique. Eventually a more effective workaround was developed - Makashi. To counter the sweeping cuts of Shii-cho, Makashi gets straight to the point - literally. Shiak and shiim techniques minimize the gyroscopic effect, allowing one-handed maneuvers that take advantage of greater freedom of articulation, precision, reach, and center-line control, all stabilized by balanced yet fluid footwork.

With the proliferation of blasters, a new, dedicated form was needed to counter these new weapons. The concepts of economy and precision in Makashi were turned inward into a sphere of trajectories close to the body, to produce blazing-fast velocities that provide incredible defensive coverage. The gyroscopic effect of the saber was turned into an asset for these fast velocities, although with utmost good control - the lightsaber was wielded as fast as it needed to be to get to where it needed to go. Adaptation of blaster deflection techniques into saber combat created a lightsaber form that, with only minute angle changes in defensive velocities, could swiftly become counters without creating major openings. The passive/reactive nature of Soresu made it the consummate expression of Jedi philosophy.

Ataru in turn was the result of addressing defense and offense from a different approach. In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, in which major wars occurred often, where blasters were everywhere, and protracted battles could prove detrimental, an alternative to Soresu was sought. Rather than being a target to be struck or shot at, Ataru instead chose to go to the extremes of maneuverability as an answer, manifesting the Force inward to boost physical attributes. The tight circle established in Soresu was turned outwards, using the whole body and taking advantage of the gyroscopic effect to produce aggressive strikes that would flow one into another. Of course, a combat system built mainly around maneuverability as primary defense and offense had its disadvantages as well, especially in confined spaces, and Force-assisted maneuvers, taken to the extremes, would quickly tire a swordsman.

Form V of course deals with counterattacking. Of the Form V subsets, Shien came first, developed alongside Ataru and thus probably derived some inspiration from it. Like Ataru, Shien emphasized great mobility to navigate the field, but borrowing the playbook from Shien's parent, Soresu, applied a tighter circle than Ataru for defensive coverage that could transition quickly into offense. Djem So in turn was the result of applying the footwork and counterattack philosophies explored in Makashi and applying them into a more aggressive Soresu framework - Force-assisted strength rooted in the hips and legs would power the gyroscopic effects of the lightsaber into powerful arcs that could counter and crash against opponent defenses.

Which brings me to my theory-crafting for Form VI...

Re-examining Form VI: Niman

Already, within Form V, we see efforts to consolidate lessons learned from preceding forms, to develop a lightsaber combat system that could adequately address the changing times. In addition to the practical aspects of lightsaber development, though, we also have to examine the mindset that would provide the framework for combat systems. Form V proved too aggressive for many Jedi's tastes, ignoring the calm and focus central to Soresu, cultivating a mindset that could be detrimental to the practitioner (as Anakin found out on Mustafar) and to others.

So Niman was to be the next step: the synthesis of the experiences of thousands of years of lightsaber combat training into a combat system and fighting philosophy that could adjust to the evolving state of the galaxy. If Soresu is the consummate representation of Jedi philosophy, then Niman would have been intended to be a representation of a Jedi's role as protectors - pro-active but measured, applying appropriate solutions to solve specific problems.

Thus the core idea behind Niman: Adaptation and change.

Niman refers to two trinities of Kashi deities. Likewise, I would posit that we can begin by establishing a combative framework of two trinities of concepts:

The "hard" aspects - linear, rapid acceleration, crushing

The "soft" aspects - circular, smooth/continous, yielding

You can see that these ideas are already in preceding forms in some way or another - as they should be. I see Niman not as a Frankenstein melting pot of techniques from other forms, but a re-synthesis of their core concepts into a unifying strategy. Niman applies the mentality, rather than purely techniques, of Soresu (rooted in using Moving Meditation to calm/focus the self through immersion in the Force) into a more fluid, active combat system. Some examples of ideas of employing both the hard and soft trinities: a linear counter against a circular attack (and vice versa); crushing through what's weak, yielding and navigating around what's strong; rapid entry followed by continuous combinations.

Integration of Force attacks into lightsaber combinations fits perfectly in this framework, as it is just another tool in the box. Ultimately, that Force training would in part be teaching the practitioner that one can use more than just a lightsaber in a fight. Thus one-handed or two-handed single saber techniques would be part of the repertoire, employed as the situation calls for. Principles from the classical Niman of the Kashi people would make sense as being part of the single-bladed repertoire, if not the original inspiration for Form VI and the inclusion of Force attacks. It provides a bridge to the dual-bladework of classical Niman/Jar'Kai, which I would argue is an extension of adapting to the needs of the situation - sometimes you just need the extra blade to gain the defensive/offensive advantage, especially against multiple opponents.

Compared to more tangible core concepts found in the other forms, Niman's is a bit more abstract. One has to become acquainted with so many techniques ingrained into muscle memory to a point where a response is intuited, not rote. A lot of the focus would boil down to sensing the opponent, but in a more active manner than in Soresu. That takes experience, although being immersed in a Moving Meditation state could help, especially when employing advanced maneuvers in classic Niman/Jar'Kai, where a duelist has to keep track of their own two blades in addition to the opponent's weapon(s).

The main disadvantage to completely mastering such a comprehensive system is that it takes a really...long...time. The individual components on their own are relatively easier to grasp, so one can "master" the individual components easily through some straightforward drills. However, synthesizing all of them together into one overall strategy is another thing altogether, and there would be a steep learning curve. It helps to study other Forms, but ultimately Form VI should be able to stand on its own and hold its own. None of that "Makashi expert will always beat Niman expert" hooey.

In thinking about all of this, I can't help but look to Baguazhang, which emphasizes smooth, seamless use of hard and soft techniques and an almost free-form, fluid style of codified practice. There are a ton of different lineages, but the one I am most familiar with is the Gao Yisheng lineage, of which I have been practicing for just a couple years. The Pre-Heaven sets (which involves circle walking that BGZ is famous for) consists of palm changes that can be chained in any permutation and practiced at variable speeds; even mid-palm change a different  sequence can arise. The Post-Heaven sets are "straight line" applications of the Pre-Heaven framework, all in all producing 64 concepts from the 8 major palm changes; in turn each of the 64 lines have numerous applications. The main idea in training is to practice all of those lines and applications to the point where a response to any line of attack is smooth and intuitive rather than rote. It will probably be quite a while before I can learn anything sword-related, but this video sort of reflects what I'm talking about:

(Pardon the music, you can mute it if you don't like it)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM71tGZ_Y6Q" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM71tGZ_Y6Q</a>


Those are my thoughts (or word salad) for now, will edit and update to refine this so that it all makes more sense.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 10:59:59 AM by Tanq » Logged


Nhylus
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 11:48:02 AM »

I only had time to read half, Ill read the rest later haha but you bring up some interesting points.

Ironic that Niman is given a bad rep for intense combat. Starkiller, possibly THE most powerful jedi of all time, used Niman, specifically Jar'kai.
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 12:35:17 PM »

HEY! That's my teacher! Wang Ping of the Sanfeng Wudang Sect.
That is actually what we base the TPLA Shien on. Niman will be a bit more of a mixed bag. Our Soresu Dulon also is based on his some of his stuff.

If you are a Bagua guy, you may want to check out the dao as an analog to Niman. There are many hand pushes and stuff that can be used as Force pushes.

I know a bunch of students of Luo Dexiu, so I am familiar with Gao Style.

I think you are correct in many of the criticisms you put forth.

Heres a vid of bauadao by another famous teacher...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCwyKQmMfzk" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCwyKQmMfzk</a>
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 12:59:05 PM »

I've always had questions of my own about this Form, which of course can't be adequately answered by the existing canon.  As it is, all the Forms are severely lacking in martial information, so once again it comes down to our interpretation.

This is an excellent post, though.  You make many fine points, and I'll try to at least address a few in my response.

First off, my initial reaction to Niman was "what's the point?"  As you said, a balanced form like Shii-Cho already covers the basics, so a more advanced form of... well, the basics isn't necessary.  However, after seeing thoughts on Shii-Cho from Master Nonymous and Craig Page (Uilos as he is known here), I've seen some major differences between the two which make me think that Niman is a necessity.  Shii-Cho is rather deliberate, moving through the battlefield at a consistent pace with wide movements to address multiple foes.  Niman, on the other hand, has a more passive nature - as you said, I imagine it taking much from its Soresu roots to give it a solid defensive core.  These are two very different approaches to combat, which suggests that one cannot be replaced by the other.

Second, the "melting pot" theory of Niman never made much sense to me either.  How does one combine techniques from five different styles, all of which have completely separate philosophies?  Of course there is some overlap between the Forms, but I hardly think their methods are compatible.  The flowing three dimensional movements of Soresu, for instance, would be compromised by the linear techniques of Makashi.  By combining these things you're just making a new, crappy Form which can't hold up to... well, anything.  It's self-defeating.  Likewise, trying to perform Djem So techniques without an aggressive philosophy would be pointless... you'd be conceding the battle before it starts.  HOWEVER, a separate, balanced form which is designed for Consulars (ie allows the use of Force powers in tandem with lightsaber techniques) DOES make a lot of sense.  This Form would have to be balanced, and in becoming a "jack of all trades but master of none" would require some creativity, which I have read about Niman.  From this point of view, Niman is completely sensible.

I'll say more as I think of it, but for now I'm just curious to see what others have to say.  I know Master Nonymous has his own TPLA version of Niman, which I'm interested to hear more about, so let the discussion continue!
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 02:04:08 PM »


Counter-Points to Established Writings

Some thoughts, from both in-universe and out-of-universe perspectives, regarding the above points, because they're the 800-lb gorillas in the room:

1) I find the concept that X style will beat out Y style to be ludicrous. Any slacker who fights someone who's had lots of experience will be guaranteed to lose, but that should not be an issue with the style. A combat style is a strategic framework aimed at effectively resolving a hostile situation. I don't really know of any real-world, long-lived codified combat styles that intentionally half-asses its approaches or its training regimens. As an aside, I disagree with how the Jedi Path author put Juyo in its own section labeled, "Advanced Lightsaber Techniques," as if the other lightsaber forms didn't have advanced concepts as well.
Agree 100%. That view point is an obviously naive one from non-martial artists. Every style of combat has all of the skill presented. The training regimen will be different, but the end result is the same.
Quote
2) I disagree that there is an in-universe need to establish a form with less stringent training regimens than other forms. Shii-cho, known for its "simplicity" and straightforwardness, a form which all Padawans had a foundation in, should logically have been the go-to style for further study for Consulars who don't want to learn more extensive bladework. Shii-cho, as evident in Kit Fisto's interpretation, has already been battle-tested and proven effective, if not adequate, for millenia, against swordsmen and gunners. There really isn't a need for yet another combat style that has more lax training requirements. Oh, and yes, about the "Way of the Rancor" moniker...Rancors don't seem so lazy to me. A more adequate description for them would be "efficient killing machines." Hardly an apt creature to represent the concepts of such a mediocre form, if we were to go by the conventional descriptions.
I think again that this is due to the writers not having any training in swordplay. It is rare to find anyone who really has a good handle on it these days, even within the martial arts. I interpret those descriptions as In-universe lay person misconceptions of the forms as seen by outsiders.

Also, depending on how you define "lax" that could mean a whole lot of things.

Quote

3) The issue of mastery. In The Jedi Path Niman was stated to be easy to master. Yet Cin Drallig stated that Niman mastery requires 10 years of dedicated practice. These two statements are incongruous. Either Niman is easy to master, or it is not. So either Jedi Battlemaster Skarch Vaunk doesn't know what he's talking about or Jedi Battlemaster Cin Drallig is pulling stuff out of his waste disposal chute.
Both of them were obviously impostors. Cheesy

Quote
4) Martial arts is not an RPG game where you assign a limited set of attribute points. A martial system that covers all bases does not make it a "jack of all trades, master of none" style. It makes it a comprehensive style that addresses all tactical situations, providing more tools to use for the appropriate situations. How good one is in the style depends on how efficiently they practice and execute. One would think that, for a comprehensive sword art, the curriculum is long by virtue of having to cover so much ground. [/quble to "choose" techniques in the midst of combat and remain effective. You must strategize to your opponent, not to your whim.

5) As a consequence, for those who are not so dedicated in their training, a comprehensive system provides a good primer for basic skills, whereas true mastery takes much more dedication. You get out what you put in, true for any other kind of training.
Yes.
It is not the style, it is the fighter. Every fight requires ALL your skills. not just the ones you deem good. It is also impossible to "choose" techniques in the midst of combat and remain effective. You must strategize to your opponent, not to your whim.

Quote
6) It should be noted that Niman was first utilized amongst Force users in ancient times, formidably, by the Legions of Lettow, who in turn adopted the concepts from the elite guards of the Kashi Mer dynasty, one of the early civilizations that discovered the Force. The combatives were eventually adopted into the Jedi Order after the First Schism. By the time of KotOR II, Niman had become a well-developed and established combat system. It had survived centuries of all-out warfare prior to the disastrous showing at the Geonosis arena (at least since the Old Sith Wars) and could evidently be frightening in the hands of someone like Exar Kun.
I would like to take this time to remind you that we have already established that the idea of RPG styles and "rock-paper-scissors" as has been referred to are not real. Therefore, the idea the the "style" can have a showing in a battle, is counter to that idea. It was mere chance the felled the Niman practitioners, not the weaknesses of the style.
Quote
7) Niman's pure root being Soresu. This is contradictory to the history established above, as the Jedi Order had incorporated Niman into their curriculum after the First Great Schism (24,500 BBY), presumably way before the proliferation of blaster technology that would lead to the development of Soresu. We know this because the first demonstrated widespread use of "frozen blaster" tech (the development of lightsabers) was not until the Second Great Schism in 7,000 BBY - when Shii-Cho and Makashi came into full bloom. So that's 17,500 years in between unaccounted for, in which Niman was already in the Jedi Order's repertoire.
Better yet, thats 17,500 years with very little technological advancement other than blasters!

Quote
8 ) Niman as a gateway to Jar'Kai. If we base our understanding of Niman off of what's already been published, we are to expect that the lax bladework requirements of Niman is supposed to open the way to dual bladework. Yet we have seen evidence of other lightsaber forms utilizing dual blade tactics, notably Shii-cho, Makashi, and Ataru (I would include Soresu as well, since Kenobi has employed dual blades with a Soresu combative mindset in The Clone Wars). But if we are to believe that the most noteworthy thing about Niman is that it incorporates Force attacks into its combinations, how does that factor in as being part of a foundation for a swordfighting-centric style like the traditional Niman/Jar'Kai that was adapted from the Yovshin Swordsmen and Kashi elites?
This is what you get with a crowd sourced history and storyline. It will not make sense in many areas.


I will do a separate post for your second part.
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 04:22:38 PM »

I wanted to separate this post from the previous ones.

I think you are definitely on to something with the questioning of the use of Niman. The description of it in all sources is pretty blah. Not a whole lot to go on. But I think we can at least agree on a few points:

1. The form is about balancing the skills of the previous forms into a unified whole. This is not a novel idea in the martial arts. On fact, you would be hard pressed to find an art out there that does not have at least one of it's founders mixing skills from various teachers.

2. The Form would take a long time learn and master, being that it contains the skills of the other five.

3. It is more thoughtful and internally centered than the others.


When we talk about mixing skills and balancing out styles, I think what we really mean is taking training concepts from various sources, not just one. This, to me is the essence of true martial art and high refinement of technique. We can also start pulling in concepts of strategy through the entire conflict, not just the physical blows. The abstract ideas that are explictly trained in other forms, are now synthesized into one fighter.

That's the idea anyway. It's largely BS. As we have established, every fighter brings all their skills with them into a fight. There is no need to explicitly combine them in a style. What is not often thought about (I have never seen the topic addressed) is not what skills you directly acheive through training in other form's skill sets, but what insight it give you into those who train that way.

"Know thy enemy" is the most prolific and tested axiom of martial art and endeavor. The Training in Niman would not only give a balanced training and extensive knowledge of how to perform in battle, but also information on what the strengths and weaknesses are of said style. So, if Ataru has a distinct advantage because of it's aggressive nature, a Niman practitioner would be nonplused. Knowing how that person was likely to train, and using careful observation in the fight, a practitioner of Niman would use that knowledge of Ataru, to defeat the practitioner of Ataru.

This of course is simply technique wise. Before and after the fight the conflict still exists. Knowing the wide range of techniques and stately makes people seem less intimidating because you have some working knowledge of what they do. You can come up with basic plans that can lead into victory over opponents that have you out matched.

Niman is more the scholarly form of lightsaber combat to me.

I think any martial art can be fitted into any of these lightsaber forms. If you watch the TPLA stuff, you will see much Bagua in much of our stuff, but mainly the Shien version of Form V. I would be interested to see how you interpret this with Gao style.
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 10:56:56 PM »

I always depicted Nimaan as being more of a meditative style... like Tai Chi... People think it isn't deadly because they don't take time to figure out the application for the slow techniques they do.

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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2012, 12:23:03 AM »

Well personally I like the idea that Niman stands for. To unite all forms. And honestly, like Nonymous said, you can't choose what technique you're going to use in the middle of a fight.

I personally never understood the 7 forms. Mainly because they are all completely made up and never even considered while filming the movies. I've always had a fancy for the idea that a Master of Lightsaber combat, could study all 7 forms and their branches, and use them all in a fight. Instinctual of course and 2nd nature. Do a round-house kick 1000 times, and you won't really have to think about using it in a fight, it just comes naturally. Or at least thats how it was for me in taekwondo. I learned plenty of moves, I only actually applied a select few to combat/sparring, and those were the ones that were 2nd nature to me.

To me, the jedi in the movies, weren't thinking to themselves "Hmm well Im a master of X fighting style and this guy is master of x/this situation requires X style" because the forms didn't exist in the Saga. From what I understand, the fight coordinator, Nick Gillard, for 1-3, combined different styles of sword combat. Because he describe Jedi as masters of their weapon. That a weapon like a lightsaber would embody every style into one. He used a mix of many sword styles, not once did he have the 7 forms in mind.

So I like Niman's philosophy of combining styles for some of these reasons.
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2012, 01:56:49 AM »

I always depicted Nimaan as being more of a meditative style... like Tai Chi... People think it isn't deadly because they don't take time to figure out the application for the slow techniques they do.



This.

I've always seen it as the Principle of Jeet Kune Do used in the principle of Tai Chi.

Niman, conceptually, shows the Jedi becoming complacent in their roles. They no long needed to be combatants. They were diplomats, symbols. The saber became as much a symbol, therefore they required a martial art style that downplayed outright combat and focused on discipline.

This is akin to Sport Fencing, Tae Kwan Do, MMA, etc, etc, etc. Melee combat has not been relevant on a grand scale for centuries, to keep some of the traditions going. However, the focus of learning the martial styles has shifted. It is now no longer popular as a means of combat, but of sport.

About the Forms themselves. Looking at the Forms, there is something that can be said of the Jedi and Sith: The were both Absolutionists. This is this. This is that. Damn you for not thinking as such as us
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Master of the Snark Side of the Force

Long Live The Fighters

Nhylus
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2012, 02:35:10 AM »

there is something that can be said of the Jedi and Sith: The were both Absolutionists. This is this. This is that

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irKxtVOymXY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irKxtVOymXY</a>
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I do appreciate lightside points haha.

Tanq
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2012, 02:54:02 PM »

HEY! That's my teacher! Wang Ping of the Sanfeng Wudang Sect.
That is actually what we base the TPLA Shien on. Niman will be a bit more of a mixed bag. Our Soresu Dulon also is based on his some of his stuff.

If you are a Bagua guy, you may want to check out the dao as an analog to Niman. There are many hand pushes and stuff that can be used as Force pushes.


Actually I hadn't seen your Shien video. After looking at it I can see the parallels. This is really making me want to learn more Bagua Smiley

Everyone - really appreciate your comments.

I guess my original criticism can be distilled to this: At its core, I don't feel that Niman as a martial system and philosophy is about combining styles. Other saber forms do this implicitly by their evolution and by necessity to keep with the times. Individual swordsmen already do this by cross-training however they wish. Nor is it about keeping all elements of saber combat in moderation ("Oh, I've used too many thrusts! Time to defend for a little bit!"). Instead I view Niman as a completely distinct training method and philosophy (albeit one rooted in lessons learned from older forms). I'm just trying to articulate what that synthesis could look like as a combat strategy and training method. I do feel that it is an attempt to build into the foundation of its practice the prevention of "enslavement to form" that Count Dooku derided - rather than defaulting to one strategy or another, to always adjust and change according to the opponent, which is one of the central tenets of Bagua. I also like the analogy of Taijiquan for its yin/yang, hard/soft concept.

I don't really agree, either, that Niman on its own is a reflection of Jedi complacency. Niman's origins predate the lightsaber, the Old Republic Jedi, and the Hundred Year Darkness. The Jedi may have used Soresu as the root in adopting classical Niman, but the lethality of the classical Niman should still be there.  In addition, Exar Kun was a Niman practitioner, who doesn't strike me as the Consular type. Based on his ambitious personality, if Niman didn't have something of great martial value to offer in terms of lightsaber dueling, Exar Kun would not have chosen it. Furthermore, two major features of the Niman curriculum involve Force attacks and a solid foundation for using dual blades of classical Niman/Jar'Kai - very different approaches to combat, so I don't think Niman was designed with Consulars specifically in mind.

So my attempt to reconcile this is that there is so much going on in the Niman curriculum that most Jedi just don't have the time to really master it all. It takes an ambitious - even fanatic - practitioner to fully develop such a broad-spectrum, yet deep set of lightsaber skills, along with the experience needed to intuitively adapt to many different kinds of opponents. Yet there is enough in the basics of the style to attract those who want a training regimen that covers a wide array of tactics, as opposed to older forms which would probably emphasize certain tactics over others at the basic level. In other words, it isn't so much Niman as a lightsaber form that is the issue, but the mentality of those who wish to study it. Uilos, I like your comparison to JKD principles because this issue is also reflected in JKD (This paper is a good read for the problems of how some people mistakenly approach applying JKD, aka "vagabond training").

A bit on the fence about recognizing and exploiting other styles. It sounds pretty reasonable, but...in an open battlefield where an opponent is charging in, one wouldn't exactly know what that fighter's background is, or what strategy/techniques they favor until you've engaged them for a little bit. This is even more pertinent since it appears that many of the Jedi/Sith tend to cross-train in the different arts.  Granted, a Force-sensitive would have precognitive abilities, so they may have some idea. This is where I think the Moving Meditation requirement, rather than the defensive focus, of Soresu is highly beneficial as the core of Niman, so that practitioners can immerse themselves deeply into the Force and see all the pathways available for resolving the conflict. I'm hesitant to describe Niman as scholarly since that has a certain connotation...perhaps more strategically open-minded?
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Darth Nonymous
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 03:14:43 PM »


A bit on the fence about recognizing and exploiting other styles. It sounds pretty reasonable, but...in an open battlefield where an opponent is charging in, one wouldn't exactly know what that fighter's background is, or what strategy/techniques they favor until you've engaged them for a little bit. This is even more pertinent since it appears that many of the Jedi/Sith tend to cross-train in the different arts.  Granted, a Force-sensitive would have precognitive abilities, so they may have some idea. This is where I think the Moving Meditation requirement, rather than the defensive focus, of Soresu is highly beneficial as the core of Niman, so that practitioners can immerse themselves deeply into the Force and see all the pathways available for resolving the conflict. I'm hesitant to describe Niman as scholarly since that has a certain connotation...perhaps more strategically open-minded?
Well, It really has nothing to do with "recognizing" an opponents training on the battle field or off. In a fight those thoughts do not help you. They slow you down and make you second guess yourself. But, if you were schooled in a enormous number techniques and training methods, the fact that every human moves the same will be far more clear to you. Then, you can abandon novice concepts like style and application. You can freely react in any way, and those things that come at you will not be as unfamiliar as with one who was self centered in their training. It is about not trying to predict what coming next but reacting to it without fear or hesitation. You can only do that through knowledge and experience with other styles.

If there is one thing about Niman which may be clouding the issue is that there does not seem to be any "core" technique or Form. It is not combining but balancing out. Creating a larger playing field.

I also think that "scholarly" is the one cannon term that can really be appropriately applied to Niman. You must STUDY these concepts, not just know how to do them. You must STUDY conflict, technique, resolution, strategy.

As an aside,  Yin Yang theory (taiji) is common to ALL Chinese arts, not just the "internal" ones. Soft and hard are pretty universal concepts.
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Tanq
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2012, 02:09:56 PM »

Well, It really has nothing to do with "recognizing" an opponents training on the battle field or off. In a fight those thoughts do not help you. They slow you down and make you second guess yourself. But, if you were schooled in a enormous number techniques and training methods, the fact that every human moves the same will be far more clear to you. Then, you can abandon novice concepts like style and application. You can freely react in any way, and those things that come at you will not be as unfamiliar as with one who was self centered in their training. It is about not trying to predict what coming next but reacting to it without fear or hesitation. You can only do that through knowledge and experience with other styles.

It sounds like we're pretty much getting at the same thing, and I probably misinterpreted what you wrote, since it didn't seem to go in line with the general direction of your ideas further up the thread. For that I apologize.

Quote
If there is one thing about Niman which may be clouding the issue is that there does not seem to be any "core" technique or Form. It is not combining but balancing out. Creating a larger playing field.

Balancing still doesn't feel like the right word, since there is the connotation of regulation. Perhaps it would be more practical to think that "moderation" refers to the mindset - to be proactive or reactive, aggressive or passive, for instance - rather than the skill sets, as an answer to the risk of over-cultivating aggression as in Forms IV and V.

Quote
I also think that "scholarly" is the one cannon term that can really be appropriately applied to Niman. You must STUDY these concepts, not just know how to do them. You must STUDY conflict, technique, resolution, strategy.

When you put it that way, I completely agree.
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Master Lucien Kane
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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2012, 06:45:00 PM »

Well and in the study of conflict and strategy, you learn more than just techniques... you begin to learn tactics... which if you've spent any time around me, you know that I believe that is a huge factor in becoming a great martial artist.
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