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Author Topic: Musings on Niman philosophy  (Read 4012 times)
4stringjedi
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« on: December 18, 2012, 08:46:09 PM »

Recently I've been getting really into the philosophic elements of the 7 forms and looking deeper than the Wookieepedia entries. One thing that has really stood out to me is the conception of Niman as a weak form. As the form hasn't had all that much love on these boards I thought I would talk about some of the key culprits in perpetuating this misconception.

All the Jedi that were killed in the battle of Geonosis were Niman practitioners.
Manipulation of statistics comes to mind here. These Jedi didn't die because of the form they practised, they died because they were less likely to practise martial skills (I'll touch on this in the next section), this was peacetime. The Jedi of the time spent more time fighting gangs of thugs than disciplined armies. If all the Jedi were practitioners of Soresu or Makashi (or any other form) the outcome would be the same.

Niman was for diplomats, not warriors.
True, the idea of Niman is usually described to be a form that trains the user to be well rounded in the basics of all aspects of Lightsaber combat. The idea being that Jedi who spend more time partaking in less hazardous activities would be able to call of a variety of skillsets to defend themselves should the situation arise. Niman was created for the Jedi who spends more time sharpening his wit than his blade.
This doesn't mean that the form can't be taken further. In the Darth Bane trilogy (read them, they're great) there is a character named Johun Othone who is described as a Niman practitioner. He was the padawan of the Jedi master who lead the Army of Light, this dude isn't going to let his student study a path that will get him killed. The book mentions that Johun spent many years in the rough areas of the Outer Rim and had seen many battles, going on to state that his training in Niman had served him well - especially due to its emphasis on adaptability. However, after 10 years (off the top of my head) of peace following the Russaan Reformations Johan had spent all of his time acting as the Chancellor's bodyguard. The book mentions that the lack of intense battles had caused him to cease constant practising of his martial skills.

"Is Form VI the most worthy of study? No, but in general it is the most practical."
―Cin Drallig

This is a pretty contradictory statement, he's telling us that this style is the less worthy of study because it is the most practical? Hmm.

I could go on for pages and pages about these points and other little things mentioned, but I don't want to bore anyone and it would probably come across as a bit of a rant. Maybe it does anyway..  Wink


Something that surprised me at first about the Niman philosphy is the animal it is named for. The Rancor.

We all know the Rancor don't we. You know, this guy -


Doesn't seem like the diplomatic type does he?
Seems like a funny creature to name a scholar's form.
It's entirely possible the guy that created the forms just thought of the first Star Wars animal that came to mind at attached it to Form 7. But that's no fun.

Lets think about the Rancor. It is one of the most widespread creatures in the Galaxy, they can survive pretty much anywhere with prey, solid land and breathable air. Not only this, but they are almost always top of the food chain. How do they survive? Well - aside from being great big fang wielding beasts - they are adaptable.
And adaptability, I believe, is the key to mastering Niman. Perhaps the Niman practitioner believes that a balanced mind makes for an adaptable fighter.


I have a few more thoughts but I think it would be good to see if anyone has anything to add, let's get talking Cheesy
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Darth Nonymous
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2012, 11:36:56 PM »

TPLA is actually going to be releasing some Niman in the new year. These are valid points however. I think the idea that there is a balance between the forms makes it difficult to rationalize with some poe[ple who are entrenched in the differences of the Forms. Thus, a balance will seem like watering all of them down to find a middle ground. The idea has often been ridiculed for being a "Jack of all trades master of none."

I am of the opinion that is not true.
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Stiletto
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« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 12:19:50 AM »

Nonymous, I assume you've seen "Darth K'Sheen of NY Jedi" aka shadowsdie on YouTube's Niman form videos?

Here's the most recent form video (Lightsaber Form VI: Niman Second Draft, Revision 1 (version 2.1) - Sept 25 2010)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsHcnJb9p68

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsHcnJb9p68" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsHcnJb9p68</a>



The earlier ones are as follows:
Lightsaber Form VI: Niman Second Draft (version 2.0) - Aug 24 2010 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck4E3i1ipmQ
Lightsaber Form VI: Niman - Advanced Niman Form (first draft) - July 31 2009 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9ph0DujRh4
Lightsaber Form VI: Niman - Basic Niman Form (strikes) - July 31 2009 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa44C6pXK20
Lightsaber Form VI: Niman First Draft  - July 25 2009 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCOf6pHCS-w
(Some of these have interesting comments - and if anything, it's interesting to see a personal form develop)

It wasn't ever adopted by the club as it was still a work in progress and was a personal form (with the goal of becoming a club form), and was only demonstrated - other than the above videos - informally at practice AFAIK.

Here's a Sept 23, 2010 demonstration of it at practice:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcPRz8O6VAE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcPRz8O6VAE</a>


I can tell you from discussions with him at the time that he was putting a lot of research into Niman users in the films and the strikes, blocks and parries they used, as well as incorporating some of the NY Jedi developed forms of Shii-Cho, Soresu, etc. since Niman incorporates from most forms. (K'Sheen, much like me, was known for his exhaustive research - in that he and I are very much alike Smiley )

Feel free to let it influence you (and provide credit), or... borrow nothing.  Grin
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 12:28:45 AM by Stiletto » Logged


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« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 02:12:13 AM »

Recently I've been getting really into the philosophic elements of the 7 forms and looking deeper than the Wookieepedia entries. One thing that has really stood out to me is the conception of Niman as a weak form. As the form hasn't had all that much love on these boards I thought I would talk about some of the key culprits in perpetuating this misconception.

All the Jedi that were killed in the battle of Geonosis were Niman practitioners.
Manipulation of statistics comes to mind here. These Jedi didn't die because of the form they practised, they died because they were less likely to practise martial skills (I'll touch on this in the next section), this was peacetime. The Jedi of the time spent more time fighting gangs of thugs than disciplined armies. If all the Jedi were practitioners of Soresu or Makashi (or any other form) the outcome would be the same.

A very interesting point!  The combat skills of the Jedi were definitely lax at that point, so your point about statistics is rather valid.  I can't really find a disagreement here, other than the possibility that they deliberately made a "weak" Form for the diplomats of the Order to study for the sake of furthering their scholarly studies.  Like you though, I'm not entirely convinced by this explanation.

TPLA is actually going to be releasing some Niman in the new year. These are valid points however. I think the idea that there is a balance between the forms makes it difficult to rationalize with some poe[ple who are entrenched in the differences of the Forms. Thus, a balance will seem like watering all of them down to find a middle ground. The idea has often been ridiculed for being a "Jack of all trades master of none."

I am of the opinion that is not true.

Personally, I can't even wait to see the TPLA Niman.  I think it's gonna be a fascinating new topic of study!
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Darth Nonymous
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2012, 02:59:06 AM »

We had a big discussion here as well: http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=9115.0
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