Anyone Notice that Darth Vader...

[dhenwood]

Palpatine employed numerous dark force users so there were never really just two dark force users just two sith lords

[srams]

Yeah all the Inquisitors and his Hands and many others and there have always been other sith and dark force sects and cults too.

I was just making an observation about Vader as a Sith and then Anakin as Jedi. Not really balance to the force...

 I really don't think that balance could have been achieved due to the countless aforementioned dark force users and only a small remaining light force users during the time of the empire...if any kind of balance was achieved I'd have to say it was closer to the Legacy Era with the new Jedi order and Darth Krayts One Sith. There was more of an equallity of Force Users during that time IMO.

[Jabari]

Well, if we go by the "light side is always canon" idea like in the video games, then in Star Wars, the universe is basically good.  So then the dark side is imbalance, I guess?

[mcnaughtonM]

Wait, but based on that argument, then didn't Vader and Palpatine technically bring balance to the force by reducing the Jedi to a mere handful?

I mean, if an equivalent amount of light and dark side potency would induce balance, then in a way, the Jedi were the "bad guys" all along and Vader brought balance [which is a good thing apparently] to the force by eliminating most all of them.
So really, killing kids is actually a good thing as long as the culprit is bringing a vague amount of balance to a philosophy.

That must mean that in the couple of years before Palpatine's Resurrection that the force was unbalanced, right?  Because the 2 Sith lords were all but eliminated leaving only Luke Skywalker.

Actually, upon review of my argument, Lucas did say at one point after Episode III that balance entails having no Dark Side and only Light Side, which kind of messes up the whole yin-yang theory.  I'm not sure why Dark Side needs to be eliminated, but it might have something to do with being completely evil, like unrealistically cookie-cut evil.

Haha well maybe there was another paragraph to the prophecy, stating that the Chosen One would bring balance to the force, and his seed would again ruin it. :p

He also brought balance to the force in TCW (If you watch it, I know most bash on it quite hard). By killing The Son and being part in the death of The Daughter it balanced out that little planet/dimension/world thing

[Darth_Phobius47]

As Darth Traya once said:

"For every Jedi or Sith slain, another shall rise to take their place."

With that logic, there is always balance, as the Force should balance itself. However, during the time before the Fall of the Republic, there were only ever 2 Sith and hundreds of Jedi. Vader ended that period by wiping out the Jedi Order AND the Two Sith regime. Balance was disrupted by Darth Bane, and finally was restored with the end of the Rule of Two by the Sword. It was technically a two-part prophecy. Darth Vader balanced the Jedi & Sith, while Jaina Solo ended the Rule of Two.

[JEStucker]

Slightly off topic, but still pertains to Vader...

In Empire Strikes Back, we see Vader flinging large, obviously heavy, items at Luke in their "duel," so riddle me this Batman, why, when Luke let go of the antennae (or whatever that thing he was clinging to during the "I'm your Father" speech) and started to fall down the shaft, didn't Vader just Force grab him and toss him back into the carbonite freezing chamber?

[BenPass]

Slightly off topic, but still pertains to Vader...

In Empire Strikes Back, we see Vader flinging large, obviously heavy, items at Luke in their "duel," so riddle me this Batman, why, when Luke let go of the antennae (or whatever that thing he was clinging to during the "I'm your Father" speech) and started to fall down the shaft, didn't Vader just Force grab him and toss him back into the carbonite freezing chamber?

IMO, it's quite simple...just imagine that you just told someone that you were their father and that you would betray your master for him...you would completely change your life to be with your child...and they scream "Noooooooooo!" and would rather die than be with you. I imagine Vader, as a person, was hurting there.

[chicago.jedi]

IMO, it's quite simple...just imagine that you just told someone that you were their father and that you would betray your master for him...you would completely change your life to be with your child...and they scream "Noooooooooo!" and would rather die than be with you. I imagine Vader, as a person, was hurting there.

     I would agree completely. The Dark Side is always talked about as being emotion driven. But I believe it would have to be the right emotions...anger seeming to be the key. At the point that Luke jumped, it seens that Vader is heartbroken. This could eventually lead to anger and great power in the Dark Side, but at the time, I think Vader was not controlling his emotions in that way. It did not take Luke long to fall, so channeling your emotions in that short a time is not easy. Even after Leia rescues Luke, and Luke and Vader communicate telepathicly, Vader is still obviously hung up on the failed father/ son bonding moment.
    As far as the topic of this thread and the whole balance of the Force thing...I suggest that balance in the Force is not just about numbers of Jedi and Sith. I think it is more about who is in charge. The Jedi did not rule the galaxy. The Emperor, a Sith Lord, did rule the galaxy. This could not possibly be balance in the Force. I think the Jedi did not realize that under the Republic, the Force actually was pretty close to balance already. Vader unbalanced the Force and then re-balanced it as his last act. But balance is very difficult to maintain. It is possible that it did not last long.

[Luna]

Wait, but based on that argument, then didn't Vader and Palpatine technically bring balance to the force by reducing the Jedi to a mere handful?

I mean, if an equivalent amount of light and dark side potency would induce balance, then in a way, the Jedi were the "bad guys" all along and Vader brought balance [which is a good thing apparently] to the force by eliminating most all of them.
So really, killing kids is actually a good thing as long as the culprit is bringing a vague amount of balance to a philosophy.

That must mean that in the couple of years before Palpatine's Resurrection that the force was unbalanced, right?  Because the 2 Sith lords were all but eliminated leaving only Luke Skywalker.

Actually, upon review of my argument, Lucas did say at one point after Episode III that balance entails having no Dark Side and only Light Side, which kind of messes up the whole yin-yang theory.  I'm not sure why Dark Side needs to be eliminated, but it might have something to do with being completely evil, like unrealistically cookie-cut evil.

Well there is the whole thing about the manifestation of the Dark Side giving into the Dark Side... maybe that bit of nonsense has something to do with it? Perhaps the Dark Side is alright, as long as it isn't controlling anyone. That actually makes sense - the Son was okay because he controlled the Dark Side, but even he saw that being controlled by the Dark Side was wrong (the only thing he and his sister agreed on was that Abeloth should not be free).

Plus, there are many Force-wielders who are neither Jedi nor Sith. I'm pretty sure they count for something. Even without the Sithies, there were Dark Siders, and if the Jedi were completely annihilated, there would still be other infinitely superior Light Siders.

Haha well maybe there was another paragraph to the prophecy, stating that the Chosen One would bring balance to the force, and his seed would again ruin it. :p

He also brought balance to the force in TCW (If you watch it, I know most bash on it quite hard). By killing The Son and being part in the death of The Daughter it balanced out that little planet/dimension/world thing

He brought balance to it by destroying both sides.

That sounds familiar....

[Jabari]

As to why Vader didn't Force-catch Luke:  perhaps he was surprised and disappointed by Luke's reaction.

I mean, in Vader's head, he does what he does originally out of a sense that if he is in charge, if he knows the right things, he can make things better.  Safer.  And clearly, he thinks he's come to a logical conclusion that everyone should agree with that.  That's why his response to Padme's reaction is that Obi-Wan must have turned her against him.  He doesn't see anything wrong with his position, and thought she would agree.  He's just trying to protect everyone!

Jump ahead 20 years.  Vader has long since settled into his role as Palpatine's right hand man.  But now, having recently found out that his child did not die with Padme, he's begun to return to that thought that he and his family could rule the galaxy.  To Vader, the Rebellion is probably just a power play - one in which his son has become a heroic symbol.  Once again, a Skywalker, openly fighting for the galaxy!  Surely, his own son would see the merit in joining him.  Doesn't he want to rule the galaxy also?

And then, when he makes the same offer of power to Luke as he did to Padme, Luke reacts the same way his mother did.  Utter rejection.  Vader is shocked, and does nothing.  And I agree, he probably is heartbroken.  He got his hopes up of finally having a family.

Also, it does give him a plausible reason to tell the Emperor of how he let Luke get away.  I think, whether he would admit it or not, Empire Strikes Back is when Vader starts doubting his life choices so far.

[B1ondeange1]

this thread is making me feel really sad for poor old vader!

[chicago.jedi]

That is an interesting point, Jabari. You are correct, he does seem to have that "how can anyone possibly think this is a bad idea" attitude towards both Padme and Luke. I also agree that that was his turning point. In ESB, Vader is hot to trot to find Luke and get him turned, but he certainly seems to have the wind out of his sails in ROTJ. Vader seems have this defeated funk about him in ROTJ.

[srams]

One more question about Vader... do you think he earned a salary? I've often wondered what kind of salary and health benefits you get as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

[Jabari]

One more question about Vader... do you think he earned a salary? I've often wondered what kind of salary and health benefits you get as a Dark Lord of the Sith.

Free tuneups for life, I'm sure.  And he had a castle on Vjun....  I feel like he may have just had an open expense account. 

[srams]

Oh yeah they probably just gave him a company credit card. He had his own company vehicles too.