The two worst Jedi Knights in the History of Star Wars

[ThreadJack]

As bad as this scene is, I think we have to remember that it is, after all, staged. I'm a Pro Wrestling fan and,scoff at it if you will, but I think it can be used to prove a point here. Anytime you try to stage a high flying, acrobatic move in real time, it will usually look a bit oddly timed and require a certain amount of suspension of disbelief. Some examples:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvyvi_jdGU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvyvi_jdGU</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l15KJ-uO0g" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l15KJ-uO0g</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vipEKZhade4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vipEKZhade4</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNuzrdzFRZ4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNuzrdzFRZ4</a>

What do these all have in common with the Palpatine Corkscew Super Kill? They're all pretty slow when you think about it. The opponent SHOULD have plenty of time to simply step to the side, thereby avoiding the attack, but they don't, because in the context of the fight(or scene) the attack is supposed to happen MUCH faster, not affording them time to do so.

Just a little something to think about.

[Spidey088]

At least kit fisto lasts about 10 seconds longer. And how did they get so caught off guard. They were in the clone wars for crying out loud.

[Master Rel]

I blame uncle Lucas and his legion of sycophant writers...the scene should have used stop start action with prune face moving in real time and the others slower based upon strength of Jediness much like the Sherlock Holmes fight scenes...that way you could show everyone reacting but prune face a touch faster to show his sith grand master status...though Yoda should have owned pruney...yep Lucus kinda firetrucked this scene, sideways...with a stick

[Ninja-Jedi]

i think this goes back to Jedi also being arrogant and too sure of themselves as Yoda stated in one of the movies, Even Mace his biggest flaw is his arrogance which led to his downfall, He just assumes 4 masters would be enough to take on a sith lord which in most cases should probably be true but i think they actually underestimated Palpatine who appeared to be a frail old senator with no extraordinary skills until he springs into action catching them by suprise, I aslo believe he use FORCE SCREAM with is from KOTOR II and that ability in that game stuns and confuses opponents let u walk right up and attack even though this is not explained in movie it seems to make the most sense to me, after all Palpatine best weapon is his deception. I dont think he defeated Yoda outright it ended up more of default win really, I think Yoda was a tad better with a lightsaber and Emperor was a tad more powerful with the force

[Master Rel]

Whew there is pretty much nothing that you said that I would agree with lol   

This will have to be one of those situations where it is better to just agree that we have our own opinions 

[Luna]

Whew there is pretty much nothing that you said that I would agree with lol   

This will have to be one of those situations where it is better to just agree that we have our own opinions 

I just read that and thought the same thing.... Palps being stronger in the Force than Yoda? Okay, never-mind, I'm not arguing....

[Solinus]

While others choose not to comment, I will. I want to break this down and address all of your points, one by one.

First:

... Jedi also being arrogant and too sure of themselves as Yoda stated in one of the movies, Even Mace his biggest flaw is his arrogance which led to his downfall ...

The Jedi are not considered to be arrogant. They embody peace, tranquility, and a calm demeanor. At one point, when confronting Palpatine, Yoda asks him if he was surprised. Palpatine responds with "Your arrogance blinds you, Master Yoda." Mace Windu was the furthest thing from arrogant. As a matter of fact, I believe Mace to be one of the only Jedi to be in FULL control of his emotions. Mace created the lightsaber form called Vaapad, which is a variant of Juyo. This form takes allows for the user to use all emotions while fighting, but forcing him to remain calm and in full control. Walking this line is extremely difficult as it is very easy to full victim to anger and let those emotions drive you.

Mace Windu didn't have a "downfall". He was betrayed by Anakin and murdered by Palpatine.

... He just assumes 4 masters would be enough to take on a sith lord ...

He took what was left of the Council with him. The others were off on missions. Even Yoda was on away, with the wookies on Kashyyk. He did the best he could with what he had. He didn't assume anything.

... I aslo believe he use FORCE SCREAM with is from KOTOR II and that ability in that game stuns and confuses opponents ...

This would make sense, and if so, directly contradicts your previous statement: "He just assumes 4 masters would be enough to take on a sith lord". If he did, in fact, use this ability, it would explain why he was able to take out the first two Masters so easily. By the time he got to the third, the effect would have worn off, allowing for the remaining two to be able to fight back.

... I dont think he defeated Yoda outright ...

Neither won. It was a draw.

... Emperor was a tad more powerful with the force ...

Palpatine was stronger in the Force?! Did you not see Yoda catch his lighting IN HIS HAND?! There are other items I could mention that would indicate that Yoda's mastery of the Force is just as strong as Palpatine's, but I won't. I will go so far as to say that I think that a Yoda v. Palpatine fight would last a long time as both are evenly matched.

[Master Rel]

Yes, this is me agreeing with all of this...and a touch more...

Yoda, was Uncle Lucas's avatar of the force...he was to me the mystery birth, chosen one of a previous generation(s) past, created from the force, by the force, for the force...this is all supposition on my part but seriously...he is the living embodiment of the force.

Yoda is infinitely more powerful in his connection and as a conduit for the force...period...no argument will be excepted, so just let is go (lol) 

That Yoda chooses not to connect to the force as pruneface does is his choice not a measure of his skill or power.

If comparing power and skill with the force, without story lines and movie scripts attached...pruneface's true skills and power lay in his devious patient planning and puppet mastery of the political framework...for that his is the most powerful person in the galaxy without a doubt...but that does not compute to the most powerful force user.

Sure pruney has raw power, he is willing to sacrifice his body to force more power through him...power that Yoda caught and threw back at him.

Pruneface fought to a draw with Yoda...killed three senior council members...etc. because the writers and uncle Looney said so...period.

Pruneface had the power and skills to kill any Jedi one on one, face to face...except a handful...Mace, Yoda for sure, and a couple others but surely 99+%.

The four that showed up to arrest him...on the books, looking at numbers, it should have been a blood bath with Mace and at least one other Jedi walking out and pruneface dead and gone.

Just my thoughts   

[ed_ification]

Yes, this is me agreeing with all of this...and a touch more...

Yoda, was Uncle Lucas's avatar of the force...he was to me the mystery birth, chosen one of a previous generation(s) past, created from the force, by the force, for the force...this is all supposition on my part but seriously...he is the living embodiment of the force.

Yoda is infinitely more powerful in his connection and as a conduit for the force...period...no argument will be excepted, so just let is go (lol) 

That Yoda chooses not to connect to the force as pruneface does is his choice not a measure of his skill or power.

If comparing power and skill with the force, without story lines and movie scripts attached...pruneface's true skills and power lay in his devious patient planning and puppet mastery of the political framework...for that his is the most powerful person in the galaxy without a doubt...but that does not compute to the most powerful force user.

Sure pruney has raw power, he is willing to sacrifice his body to force more power through him...power that Yoda caught and threw back at him.

Pruneface fought to a draw with Yoda...killed three senior council members...etc. because the writers and uncle Looney said so...period.

Pruneface had the power and skills to kill any Jedi one on one, face to face...except a handful...Mace, Yoda for sure, and a couple others but surely 99+%.

The four that showed up to arrest him...on the books, looking at numbers, it should have been a blood bath with Mace and at least one other Jedi walking out and pruneface dead and gone.

Just my thoughts   

Yoda, during his duel with Palpatine, is dealing with the shock from the loss of all of the Jedi, many of whom he had personally instructed over his many years as Grand Master, as well as the Chosen One betraying the Order.  There's also the fact that Jedi have not been using the Force for knowledge and defense, but in aggression, during the Clone Wars... that the Dark Side had truly tainted everything they knew.

As for the 4 Masters - there has to be a bit of surprise that someone who has, for all intents and purposes, embodied the Republic they defend for many years has been at the heart of the conflict.  In Shatterpoint, Mace reveals that he has a deep attachment to the Republic, and that may have affected his fight, as well as that of the other masters.  Let's also add that the two known Sith Lords to that point had been taken down relatively easily - one by a Padawan, one by a Knight.  They had no way of knowing just how powerful Palpatine was, which may have led to them underestimating him.  Foolish, I know, and servant to a bad story in many ways...

[Darth Nekesus]

Yoda, during his duel with Palpatine, is dealing with the shock from the loss of all of the Jedi, many of whom he had personally instructed over his many years as Grand Master, as well as the Chosen One betraying the Order.  There's also the fact that Jedi have not been using the Force for knowledge and defense, but in aggression, during the Clone Wars... that the Dark Side had truly tainted everything they knew.

As for the 4 Masters - there has to be a bit of surprise that someone who has, for all intents and purposes, embodied the Republic they defend for many years has been at the heart of the conflict.  In Shatterpoint, Mace reveals that he has a deep attachment to the Republic, and that may have affected his fight, as well as that of the other masters.  Let's also add that the two known Sith Lords to that point had been taken down relatively easily - one by a Padawan, one by a Knight.  They had no way of knowing just how powerful Palpatine was, which may have led to them underestimating him.  Foolish, I know, and servant to a bad story in many ways...

yes but let us not forget that the only reason maul was killed by obi-wan was because he was taken by surprise when Obi wan jumped up and took Qui Gons saber.  you can tell in the movie that he is totally caught off guard.  and then dooku just got killed because anakin was a beast i wont argue for Dooku because he lost fair and square.

[ed_ification]

yes but let us not forget that the only reason maul was killed by obi-wan was because he was taken by surprise when Obi wan jumped up and took Qui Gons saber.  you can tell in the movie that he is totally caught off guard.  and then dooku just got killed because anakin was a beast i wont argue for Dooku because he lost fair and square.

But being surprised by such an amateurish move, when Maul could have JUST KILLED Obi-Wan instead of sitting at the lip and making sparks...

[Darth Nekesus]

yeah not his best decision.  hes still my favorite sith though.

[Solinus]

But being surprised by such an amateurish move, when Maul could have JUST KILLED Obi-Wan instead of sitting at the lip and making sparks...

This is the arrogance that the Sith are known for. "I've got you where I want you now. I'm going to sit here and watch you squirm, then kill you when I want to."

This attitude of complacency is what got Maul killed by a Padawan.

Complacency kills.

[Darth Nonymous]

What got them all killed was crappy screenwriting.   

[ThreadJack]

Complacency kills.

This should be a bumper sticker.