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Author Topic: Shii Cho Master's Mindset  (Read 9971 times)
Master Uilos
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« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2013, 11:34:04 PM »

Thanks for the response eerockk. Your explanation does shed light on the defensive capabilities. It also seems to me, and I could be wrong, that alot of Shii Cho strikes are 'kill shots' with the exception of shiim strikes of course. Is that an accurate assumption?

Actually, Shii Cho was supposed to be decent with Sun Djem, which focused on disarming/destroying the weapon. How the hell that works is something I'm still figuring on, but take with that what you will.
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Airk Tobruk
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2013, 12:20:52 AM »

Actually, Shii Cho was supposed to be decent with Sun Djem, which focused on disarming/destroying the weapon. How the hell that works is something I'm still figuring on, but take with that what you will.

I've read that as well and find the application of it very difficult, although I am only beginning with the TPLA version of the form. The wide arcs of Shii Cho don't seem to be condusive to hitting such a small target, with the exception of shiim. The disarming slash makes sense but Sun Djem would seem to require a little more finesse than Shii Cho provides. All the other marks of contact make sense as the majority would dismember, decapitate or mou kei. That seems to be more fitting for a 'power' form. Could the Sun Djem mark of contact have been thrown in their as a way to learn to control the saber better or did it just sound good since nobody wants to think of Jedi hacking people up?
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Darth Nonymous
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2013, 12:32:55 AM »

I would say the quintessential Shii Cho expression is one of Musashi. If a cut be made make it exact and only need to use one. So, it wouid appear as if nothing is happening, then something, then nothing, then some one is dead.
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Master Uilos
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« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 02:20:58 AM »

I've read that as well and find the application of it very difficult, although I am only beginning with the TPLA version of the form. The wide arcs of Shii Cho don't seem to be condusive to hitting such a small target, with the exception of shiim. The disarming slash makes sense but Sun Djem would seem to require a little more finesse than Shii Cho provides. All the other marks of contact make sense as the majority would dismember, decapitate or mou kei. That seems to be more fitting for a 'power' form. Could the Sun Djem mark of contact have been thrown in their as a way to learn to control the saber better or did it just sound good since nobody wants to think of Jedi hacking people up?


Well, the writers probably aimed for the latter. I'll be honest, I tend to score most by hitting the hand and the hilt during fights, but I have a saber with a long reach and most of my sparring partners are fencers so that's mainly the closest thing that they're offering me.

This is the part where the forms get amorphous is in the gross details, and the moment you start crystallizing them the moment you start losing people who have different notions. The key things about Shii Cho are Broad Strokes, Tight Guard, Forward Thinking, Relentlessness. It's not entirely about Power as there is an inherent flow in the structure.

I did two takes on Shii Cho (as structured by General Sun), one focuses on the flow, the other on the power. The overal effect is the same. Watch:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMOx4ImnWOE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMOx4ImnWOE</a>
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Airk Tobruk
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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2013, 02:49:05 AM »

The key things about Shii Cho are Broad Strokes, Tight Guard, Forward Thinking, Relentlessness. It's not entirely about Power as there is an inherent flow in the structure.


I see now. The very simple methods. Straight forward. Easy to remember. Thank you Master Uiolos! I'll incorporate that philosophy into my practices.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 02:54:28 AM by Airk Tobruk » Logged

Master VorNach
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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2013, 04:11:42 AM »

The wide arcs of Shii Cho don't seem to be condusive to hitting such a small target, with the exception of shiim. The disarming slash makes sense but Sun Djem would seem to require a little more finesse than Shii Cho provides.

If you consider your aiming at an area that encompass the entire length of the hilt, both hands, wrists and perhaps a few inches up the forearms that's actually a not a small target. It's also often the closest target to the opponent.
Powerful strikes and big arcs don't remove the possibility of finesse.
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kagemusha shin
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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2013, 04:35:36 AM »

What is confusing to me when you say arc if you use a smaller blade it's the same arc only weapon is different in the scenarios are different so what I'm curious is why the arc would even affect it like vornach said its not a small target besides shouldn't it be targets you don't aim at one place then attack it only different that's predictable you should switch the zone where you attack.
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Airk Tobruk
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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2013, 04:38:58 AM »

Thank you everyone for your insights on this. You've given me much to think about and answered many of my questions, some I didn't even know I had. This has been an enjoyable conversation.
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Volund Starfire
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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2013, 07:58:42 AM »

Shii-Cho is indeed the most basic of all forms and the basis of all forms.  However, calling it simple is indeed a disservice.  Yes, it is good to first learn so that you have a handle on the more advanced forms, but you are only learning the very basics of it.  Those who follow through their training past the most basic parts find a strong form that has great potential against even the most advanced forms.

Think of it like a small .22 target pistol.  Yes, a great many people learn to shoot this little pistol before moving on to more powerful weapons, but that does not make it weak.  In the hands of a true master, it can be just as deadly as a 9mm or a .45.

I do not call myself a master of Shii-Cho, but I am fairly well versed with the movements.  Unlike some, I train it in a very fluid style without many of the jerking motions of the counting system.  Additionally, I train with movements in a straight line without the zigzag movements or spins.

I use Shii-Cho in much the same way I use my Aikido: There are no true moves and counter-moves.  Instead, I see it as a match in a flash.  It is meant to disarm and subdue rather than kill, similar to Aikido.  It is meant to be fluid and flexible, similar to Aikido.  It can be used against one opponent or many, similar to Aikido.  The only difference is that it uses the momentum of forward movement rather than the momentum of an opponent’s attack at the basis for its moves.

As with Aikido, the defense I use depends upon several things all coming together in my mind in a flash.  I could parry the attack and open a strike, I could duck the attack and strike, I could offensively parry to the wrist, I could lock the blade and push it aside, I could lock the blade and barrel into/through the opponent, I could parry the opponent’s strike into another opponent’s angle of attack, I could guide the attack past me (and throw the opponent off balance), the list goes on.

In the end, I see Shii-Cho truly as it is described in the fiction: Like water going over falls.  If you drop a rock into the water, do you stop it from going over the falls?
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Master Lucien Kane
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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2013, 08:15:21 AM »

I wish I could "like" posts here lol

Volund aren't you in Oregon?
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Volund Starfire
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« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2013, 06:39:59 PM »

I wish I could "like" posts here lol

Volund aren't you in Oregon?
That I am... and after having handled a bit of a crisis, I'm still looking to begin a lightsaber choreography academy.
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rizalsoulisa
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2013, 07:04:35 PM »

This is my input on Shii-Cho.

The form is often described as 'simple' or 'basic.'
But what is the meaning of 'simple' and 'basic'?

To me,
Shii-cho is Basic. This means it concentrate on the foundation of attack (i.e. cut, slash, and stab) and defense (parry and block).
Shii-cho is Simple. This means it doesn't have any 2-3 steps in attacking and defending. When you block, you stop your opponent blade. When you cut, the strike is always potioned to optimize your momentum.

As a limitation, Shii-cho does not have a complex steps and body posture.


In my practice it translates to:
- Limiting the Post (I prefer to use this term instead of 'Guard') to Low, Middle, and Long. I found High is too open to use in Shii Cho, especially for the defensive-minded. Tail might be used, but my personal preference is to consider it as part of Niman, not Shii Cho.
- Diamond-Cross step patterns.
- Cuts (Cho) instead of Sai (Slash) CMIIW.

Again, this is my personal opinion on the form, based on what I learn.

Hope this helps.
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Zander_Purphoros
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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2013, 11:50:52 PM »

My understanding of the Shii-Cho mindset is this; "If it ain't broke then don't fix it" and K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple, stupid).
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