The non-martial arts

[Darth Cephalus]

I was just wondering, we have been having a discussion up in Ultrasabers questions about things like spinning and contact juggling. Is this part of the board appropriate for discussion of such non-martial applications of lightsaber use? While folks like Venturous have done a lot of work on spins, it is hard to see if that type of discussion has a specific home on this forum. Also,  it would be nice to talk to some people about contact work. The balance on a lightsaber is vastly different from typical contact juggling staffs. Still though, things like handrolls are fully possible. I was therefore curious if anyone had been able to pull off a fishtail or a shoulder roll with a saber staff. Are there trick masters out there like the combat masters? If so, is there a section where my question can most efficiently reach their attention?

[Master Uilos]

I was just wondering, we have been having a discussion up in Ultrasabers questions about things like spinning and contact juggling. Is this part of the board appropriate for discussion of such non-martial applications of lightsaber use? While folks like Venturous have done a lot of work on spins, it is hard to see if that type of discussion has a specific home on this forum. Also,  it would be nice to talk to some people about contact work. The balance on a lightsaber is vastly different from typical contact juggling staffs. Still though, things like handrolls are fully possible. I was therefore curious if anyone had been able to pull off a fishtail or a shoulder roll with a saber staff. Are there trick masters out there like the combat masters? If so, is there a section where my question can most efficiently reach their attention?

it's the Way of the Saber, to which I interpret to mean "How we use these in a constructive manner". You want to discuss it as a juggling tool? Go for it. As a Stage Combat prop, I'd love to sit and talk about it. As a Martial Arts weapon analog, sure let's get into it.

This section is about using the saber. If it was just about fighting, we'd have called it the saber combat thread or something of that nature.

my two credits

[Darth Cephalus]

Alright then. Some resources to get us started and combine the conversation.

SPINNING
Let me repost Venturous' youtube channel link. There are good directions in here that make things a whole lot easier to understand than the banditcar stuff they use on the other forum.
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR1bX1OucgsmuuBmdcNU5kw

That said, the banditcar stuff has some good pointers even if the obi/ani instructions are a bit vague.
http://www.youtube.com/user/banditcar/videos

CONTACT
There are no saber specific contact tutorials that I was able to find. That said, some staff contact tutorials that might be applicable can be found on the web from a guy called Gib

Here is one on fishtails

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhVj9DXy0c8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhVj9DXy0c8</a>

And one on Halo rolls

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M-fNPfaqDw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7M-fNPfaqDw</a>

 kcamcmahon has a couple good demos in this thread, one of which features several contact hand rolls and a halo roll in combination with spins.
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=16513.0

The video itself is here

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLD5UIrUJL4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLD5UIrUJL4</a>

In terms of contact saber rather than staff, it can be done. We were discussing it in this thread, where Slua had started things off by posting a video from a juggler called Spinning Spades who is doing it with fire sabers.
http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=16331.0

The demo Video is here

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ofG30cSBs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ofG30cSBs</a>

And another with LED swords is here

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDXGqswExto" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDXGqswExto</a>

[Darth Cephalus]

DANCE
While not a lot seems to be going on in terms of dance with LED sabers, there is material to work from. It seems to combine elements of the others and more full body movements and rotations like those found in the TPLA's Ataru moves.

One demo (my personal favorite) may be seen here

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OuaMsaSiQU" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OuaMsaSiQU</a>

Alternately, there is a belly dance application that, if you ask me, looks very twi'lek. The balancing of the sword on the head may not translate to an LED saber unless you purposefully forget that that blade is theoretically supposed to burn.

One demo of such may be seen here

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx7Gy3PSHp8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx7Gy3PSHp8</a>

and another here

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XGIRLwcw4o" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XGIRLwcw4o</a>

Other types of folk dance also utilize swords and can translate (some better than others)

Here is an Iraqi folk dance with swords

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHntjxCivBA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHntjxCivBA</a>

A Scottish version

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh3tANSDYEs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh3tANSDYEs</a>

 

Additionally, I would imagine that an LED saber can be used for any variation of dance involving a cane, including tap and Broadway.

See any Fred Astaire video ever or this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POfWbXStmro# (Embedding disabled, limit reached)

If anyone finds other resources, questions or advice, or cares to make and post any LED saber specific tutorials, please do.

[Darth Cephalus]

More on spinning.

This first a re-linking of the TPLA tutorial on orbits from form 3. I found the slow motion most helpful.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuRYp3l1UhQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuRYp3l1UhQ</a>

Also this class from New York Jedi. It opens with a dance routine and gets into some basic spins and a handroll/toss.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2GIG0F-T0s" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2GIG0F-T0s</a>

[Master Rel]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ofG30cSBs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ofG30cSBs</a>

The flame contact sword play was fun.

The ideal of using the light saber in out realm for trick movements holds the same value to me as the dueling aspect, having fun and expressing your efforts to make something interesting out of the same.

So yay for you!

The idea of holding or laying the blade on your head, well that is just right out...I still like to pretend the sabers are real, gotta give a guy that at least.

But the trick work, beyond looking so very much burning man hippie trance sort of thing, is a rather interesting consideration...what can be done with the particular weight and balance...and keeping with the light saber being "real".

Good topic.


Light Saber dueling
Choreographed light sabering
Light sabering trick artist

[Darth Cephalus]

what can be done with the particular weight and balance...and keeping with the light saber being "real".

In the other thread where we were discussing this, there were two main suggestions about the weight issue. One was using a Yari staff extension. I don't have one of those but I would think this would be an efficient way to make it work. The other was using a heavy pommel. I have a Dark War Glaive pommel and I have noticed that it will easily fit about $7.50 in quarters. The sound is a bit disrupted but still comes through. I have not had a chance to try much with it but I am fairly new to contact.

As to the burning man quality, I think that most of that just has to do with the people. Flame jugglers and contact staff people are a bit burning man in general but look at the video from kcamcmahon or this one to see that it does not have to be.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twQpx2tjQVw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twQpx2tjQVw</a>

[Master Venturous]

I haven't seen any videos in the way of contact juggling with sabers, other than the one posted previously in this thread. I'm sure if the balance was set right, it would be possible, though I feel it would best be done with a either a double-bladed lightsaber or something like a saber pike. Dancing with a saber would, in my opinion, be relatively easy to achieve, since dancing with a saber and spinning a saber are closely related. There are some styles of martial arts, such as Wushu, that have certain techniques that look like they could fall into several of these categories. If you watch a demonstration of some of the Chinese styles of sword art, it looks almost like a dance with lots of flourishes involved, yet it is based off of actual techniques that are intended to be very deadly. I personally love techniques that look cool while still being effective enough to use in a duel. 

[Darth Cephalus]

Speaking of, has anyone besides me tried a reverse obi/ani spin? If you reverse the movement, it works with an upward wield. It is basically an under-arm stab, blade rotation behind the back that winds the saber, and unwind into an upward slash. It's awkward the first several times but one gets used to it. I find it looks interesting if you obi/ani with the left hand, hand switch in front of the body, reverse obi/ani with the right hand, hand switch in front of the body and repeat. I'm currently working on a upwards version of the blade barrier spin, but haven't gotten it down yet.

[Master Venturous]

Speaking of, has anyone besides me tried a reverse obi/ani spin? If you reverse the movement, it works with an upward wield. It is basically an under-arm stab, blade rotation behind the back that winds the saber, and unwind into an upward slash. It's awkward the first several times but one gets used to it. I find it looks interesting if you obi/ani with the left hand, hand switch in front of the body, reverse obi/ani with the right hand, hand switch in front of the body and repeat. I'm currently working on a upwards version of the blade barrier spin, but haven't gotten it down yet.

Can you post a video so we can see what it looks like?

[kcamcmahon]

Because we are talking about contact juggling I cant help but think of this.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UWNWVIhFdY" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UWNWVIhFdY</a>

[Darth Cephalus]

Can you post a video so we can see what it looks like?

I'll see what I can do. I'm pretty new to web video posting so it might take a bit. I'll see if I can set aside enough time to do it in tutorial form.

Because we are talking about contact juggling I cant help but think of this.

So I guess the moral here is that if you want to learn to contact juggle a lightsaber, you should be willing to sacrifice a baby to David Bowie.
In all seriousness though, how long are the blades you are using for those staff rolls? They look full size. I have been trying with initiate blades and the weight does not seem to be there.

[kcamcmahon]

Speaking of, has anyone besides me tried a reverse obi/ani spin? If you reverse the movement, it works with an upward wield. It is basically an under-arm stab, blade rotation behind the back that winds the saber, and unwind into an upward slash. It's awkward the first several times but one gets used to it. I find it looks interesting if you obi/ani with the left hand, hand switch in front of the body, reverse obi/ani with the right hand, hand switch in front of the body and repeat. I'm currently working on a upwards version of the blade barrier spin, but haven't gotten it down yet.

interesting.. I could see that being cool. For some reason I have a hard time picturing it staring with the left hand and going backwards with the right. Probably because im right handed. Its like riding goofy footed on a skateboard for me its too awkward. But I do see what you mean. So for me I would obi/ani with the right hand then switch hands and go into a plumb flower with the left hand then back to the right hand for an obi/ani??? that should work. not sure what the blade barrier spin is but it sounds cool. you should make a video and post it.

[kcamcmahon]

I'll see what I can do. I'm pretty new to web video posting so it might take a bit. I'll see if I can set aside enough time to do it in tutorial form.

So I guess the moral here is that if you want to learn to contact juggle a lightsaber, you should be willing to sacrifice a baby to David Bowie.
In all seriousness though, how long are the blades you are using for those staff rolls? They look full size. I have been trying with initiate blades and the weight does not seem to be there.

Forget about the Baby. LoL I couldn't help it. Yes they are full size. Im not sure if that helps any with the balance tho. I guess it might because its got more weight rotating further out? The only thing I don't like about my blade length is when im trying to spin real fast and I catch a tip in the ground. All the momentum gone and your wrist still trying to twist doesn't feel good.

[Darth Cephalus]

Blade barrier was the name Venturous gave it in his tutorial here.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRFJAgnnXqw" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRFJAgnnXqw</a>

I had discovered it also a while back, when I saw a version Banditcar had of it that didn't repeat and tinkered with it, but I think his name for it captures the essence of the move. As to the right left thing, the reason I had been doing the downward obi/ani on the left was that the upward is a lot more weird feeling. It involves throwing a shoulder back instead of pulling it forward. I used my dominant arm for the more difficult move and my less coordinated arm for the more familiar. In all, it is a more complicated 3 beat alternative to the upward strokes of the plum flower.