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Author Topic: Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat: A Discourse  (Read 68523 times)
Master Uilos
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« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2011, 12:39:51 PM »

Popping on to this thread to see if there are any questions or opinions. I know we have a few martial artists on this section, I would love your opinion on it so I can make this work as best as possible.
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2011, 01:28:50 PM »

This is brilliant, thank you.
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‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2011, 02:56:08 PM »

Really is a lot of info. I also request permission to print this off, I do not like to think that because you said yes to one means yes to all. I am an aspiring film student, with not a bad start if I do say so myself, and I have plans and ideas to do films with Lightsabers and get some great coreography in them. This info will be extremely valuable to me and my friend in our coreography of these films. I noticed that many of you mentioned a dvd and  lightsaber schools. Where can I get the dvd's, is the dvd#2 out yet? I saw that it was in process some time ago, Are there any lightsaber schools in Utah? Thanks again for all that info though, plus from reading your article it has lead me to other sources and books that I should get. Thank you so much!
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Master Uilos
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2011, 02:41:01 PM »

Really is a lot of info. I also request permission to print this off, I do not like to think that because you said yes to one means yes to all. I am an aspiring film student, with not a bad start if I do say so myself, and I have plans and ideas to do films with Lightsabers and get some great coreography in them. This info will be extremely valuable to me and my friend in our coreography of these films. I noticed that many of you mentioned a dvd and  lightsaber schools. Where can I get the dvd's, is the dvd#2 out yet? I saw that it was in process some time ago, Are there any lightsaber schools in Utah? Thanks again for all that info though, plus from reading your article it has lead me to other sources and books that I should get. Thank you so much!

You have my permission to print, I'm glad it has helped and hope to see results Cheesy

For the record, permission to print is always granted. Consider the price of such is to comment and discuss on your findings and beliefs in the materials. I like discussions, they are better than arguements
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Master Artorius Vidnyl
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2011, 05:24:40 PM »

You have my permission to print, I'm glad it has helped and hope to see results Cheesy

For the record, permission to print is always granted. Consider the price of such is to comment and discuss on your findings and beliefs in the materials. I like discussions, they are better than arguements

This is the kind of attitude that will garner nothing but respect from everyone.  Uilos you are a very valuable member of this forum.  Thank you for ALL of your contributions.
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DravvenSol
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« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2011, 09:20:56 AM »

Craig, thanks for putting this together!  As all great writing does, you got me thinking.

Where do you think the dividing line is between the forms, personal style, and unintentional Niman?  (Is there a divider?)  I figure since there's Shii Cho (possibly) worked into most saber dueling - and I only say that because it's the root form - then perhaps it's the little things that separate the forms.

I'm watching Skywalker clear a skiff in ROTJ, and I'm thinking Shii-Cho, right?  He's herding (and cutting down) the crowd.  But he's also two-handing some powerful swings, and throws in a surprise kick, so maybe its Djem So...or maybe he switched forms mid-action.  (I know it's speculative as officially the forms didn't exist until 6 or 7 years ago...or at least that was the first time I learned of them.)  Still, how do we get practical definition of forms in place so that from there, personal styles can emerge?

I just know in my circle of dueling friends, there's a lot of discussion like, "Well, that was Makashi, but it could have been [some other form] if you'd thrown in a little more power from the shoulder."  Should an index of attacks and parries be a goal of dueling enthusiasts?  Dueling manuals?  Fixed starting and finishing positions and such?

Thoughts?  Thanks, man!



Hi guys, my name's Craig Page....I would like to present it here to the saber community at large to get their opinion, comments , editions and additions. The idea is to develop this further in a bid to help the community create and develop forms and fights that best represent the Seven.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17111310/7%20Forms%20of%20Lightsaber%20Combat.pdf


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« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2011, 10:11:10 AM »


I just know in my circle of dueling friends, there's a lot of discussion like, "Well, that was Makashi, but it could have been [some other form] if you'd thrown in a little more power from the shoulder."  Should an index of attacks and parries be a goal of dueling enthusiasts?  Dueling manuals?  Fixed starting and finishing positions and such?

Thoughts?  Thanks, man!


I think this is one of those things that gets debated quite a bit.  Artorius and I feel the forms are more of a philosophy than a specific set of moves, but I can see how you could argue that certain forms might have certain techniques attached to them.  From a fictional point of view, I know there are a bunch of "techniques" that are characteristic of each form... at least in the Star Wars universe.  Realistically, it seems more sensible to us that there would be a basic move set and how you execute these moves determines what "form" or "style" you use.
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2011, 10:25:16 AM »

Craig, thanks for putting this together!  As all great writing does, you got me thinking.

Where do you think the dividing line is between the forms, personal style, and unintentional Niman?  (Is there a divider?)  I figure since there's Shii Cho (possibly) worked into most saber dueling - and I only say that because it's the root form - then perhaps it's the little things that separate the forms.

I'm watching Skywalker clear a skiff in ROTJ, and I'm thinking Shii-Cho, right?  He's herding (and cutting down) the crowd.  But he's also two-handing some powerful swings, and throws in a surprise kick, so maybe its Djem So...or maybe he switched forms mid-action.  (I know it's speculative as officially the forms didn't exist until 6 or 7 years ago...or at least that was the first time I learned of them.)  Still, how do we get practical definition of forms in place so that from there, personal styles can emerge?

I just know in my circle of dueling friends, there's a lot of discussion like, "Well, that was Makashi, but it could have been [some other form] if you'd thrown in a little more power from the shoulder."  Should an index of attacks and parries be a goal of dueling enthusiasts?  Dueling manuals?  Fixed starting and finishing positions and such?

Thoughts?  Thanks, man!




In my mind.....

Niman is like Jeet Kun Do.

"Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend." - Bruce Lee.

That's how I like to Duel.
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/LIGHT SIDE POINTS PLEASE\
‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2011, 10:35:24 AM »

I think this is one of those things that gets debated quite a bit.  Artorius and I feel the forms are more of a philosophy than a specific set of moves, but I can see how you could argue that certain forms might have certain techniques attached to them.  From a fictional point of view, I know there are a bunch of "techniques" that are characteristic of each form... at least in the Star Wars universe.  Realistically, it seems more sensible to us that there would be a basic move set and how you execute these moves determines what "form" or "style" you use.

I could not agree more. The Forms are what is in your mind. The movements just coincide with the philosophy.
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Master Uilos
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« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2011, 07:31:54 PM »

wow, two months silent and suddenly boom!

to answer some questions

- The difference between Niman, personal styles and "accidental Niman" is intent and mindset. As I say in the paper, Shii Cho and Niman have a lot in common. Both cover, in essence, other Forms. But Niman has the benefit of having the principles of the five forms before it, while Shii Cho has only the one. It's simplicity and the return to simplicity, the circle is complete.

- This makes me come off as a dick, but Nick Gillard has read this paper, and he confirmed what I wrote in the conclusion of the paper: The Forms were developed independantly of the combat. The writers took what they saw and created a Form out of it, elaborating a lot of the description. So do not use the movies as your main source of information. Use the Canon written information, supplement with what you can find here, and then match what you've made to the movies. If you build a Djem So Form, it works as a form on it's own

- Niman is the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do and Tai Chi. Take all the principles of the Forms before it, but it's use is one of meditation and discipline. Tai Chi can be used for combat, but it's properties as a meditative form are what make it distinct (like Niman's description). Again, this goes into how what seperates Niman with personal styles and combinations.

- People do try to make Form Manuals, tutorials, and the Forms themselves. Only one in my mind really is considered Canon (as much as a non-sanctioned group can get) and that's Shii Cho as developed by Damon Honeycutt, aka General Sun. He was one of the original Masters and instructors in NY Jedi, and one of the first to go "I'm making a version of Shii Cho, hope you like it." He then created a form that is precisely as it is described, and it works. I have a Djem So form, and even I don't put it in this high of a regard.

- The Forms are symbols of combat. They represent mindsets and attitudes of the Jedi who hold them, as the Jedi and Sith are symbols of how power is used in the Galaxy. I once referred to it as "Jungian Martial Arts," because we can all wrap our minds around the concepts, but how it comes out is unique to every person.

Glad you all enjoyed, any questions or comments are again welcome
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« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2011, 09:01:00 PM »

- This makes me come off as a dick, but Nick Gillard has read this paper, and he confirmed what I wrote in the conclusion of the paper: The Forms were developed independantly of the combat. The writers took what they saw and created a Form out of it, elaborating a lot of the description. So do not use the movies as your main source of information. Use the Canon written information, supplement with what you can find here, and then match what you've made to the movies. If you build a Djem So Form, it works as a form on it's own

Indeed, the Forms were created to describe what you see in the film, not the other way around.  They weren't doing choreography with these Forms in mind, they were doing it with the character in mind - which explains why Obi-Wan's form is passive while Anakin's is forceful and dominating.  I think that's a really cool feature though, as each Form sort of contains the essence of that signature character.

Shii-Cho:  Basic learning form
Makashi:  Aristocratic, controlling like Dooku
Soresu:  Patient and calm like Obi-Wan
Ataru:  Brash and instinctual like Qui-Gon
Djem So:  Overpowering and impatient like Anakin
Vaapad:  Channels the darkness, basically it's badass like Samuel L Jackson Wink

All great points Uilos!  Please keep this fruitful discussion going.
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2011, 02:22:01 AM »

I really like the Idea of Vapaad.

We all have frustrations in our lives.

Now from a Jedi standpoint, I'd use that anger and or other various emotions to fuel me but afterwards you just have to let it go.

Otherwise it will consume you.

*This is just how I look at Vapaad*

Luckily the Sith have their own version Juyo.
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/LIGHT SIDE POINTS PLEASE\
‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Master Uilos
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« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2011, 09:04:46 AM »

I really like the Idea of Vapaad.

We all have frustrations in our lives.

Now from a Jedi standpoint, I'd use that anger and or other various emotions to fuel me but afterwards you just have to let it go.

Otherwise it will consume you.

*This is just how I look at Vapaad*

Luckily the Sith have their own version Juyo.




Although it's argued who developed it (though it's most likely the Sith) The Jedi were know to teach it to Master Level Jedi who had proven they COULD handle it. Vapaad has the distinction of being almost a personal form, Mace's. By the end of the Clone Wars, he's the only one who knew it and the only one to teach it. Those who did know it other than him went to the Dark Side. When Dueling Quinlan Vos, Vos used several Vapaad moves he learned from one of the fallen users. Mace immediately stopped him and told him never to use it. So it's not a Temple sanctioned form, it's Mace's, which puts it in a very different position. Ultimately the difference between Juyo and Vapaad is how the emotions getting used are channeled, if at all. Juyo lets the emotions flow while Vapaad channels them into something constructive
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2011, 09:54:12 AM »


Although it's argued who developed it (though it's most likely the Sith) The Jedi were know to teach it to Master Level Jedi who had proven they COULD handle it. Vapaad has the distinction of being almost a personal form, Mace's. By the end of the Clone Wars, he's the only one who knew it and the only one to teach it. Those who did know it other than him went to the Dark Side. When Dueling Quinlan Vos, Vos used several Vapaad moves he learned from one of the fallen users. Mace immediately stopped him and told him never to use it. So it's not a Temple sanctioned form, it's Mace's, which puts it in a very different position. Ultimately the difference between Juyo and Vapaad is how the emotions getting used are channeled, if at all. Juyo lets the emotions flow while Vapaad channels them into something constructive

A lot of my character was inspired by Quinlan Vos. Grin



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/LIGHT SIDE POINTS PLEASE\
‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2011, 04:11:52 PM »

A lot of my character was inspired by Quinlan Vos. Grin





He's a favorite of mine too, for the record, Vos mastered Ataru, might have mastered Vapaad, and knew Makashi.
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