Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat: A Discourse

[Master Uilos]

   While reading the Discourse, a question arose regarding Form Zero. Although I possibly lack knowledge of source material, and it's simply addressed elsewhere, I shall ask the question anyway. It doesn't truly directly relate to the VII Forms (since no light saber is involved) but may fall within Form 0. So, it is written that it " the most sensible Form Zero focuses on diffuse attacks using peaceful negotiations and The Force." on page 7 at the bottom. While it stresses "peaceful" since much of the source material is Jedi texts, I feel the application is likely more broad? Light Side mind tricks, force persuasion, disabling droids or weaponry frying circuits, OR force pushing someone off a ledge/cliff/into ocean/out an airlock, stasis fields/impenetrable Force barriers. Now the real heart of my inquiry... Dark Side Force Powers: Dominate Mind, Sith Sorcery inducing madness/ Destroy Mind, Lightning, Draining Life/ Death Fields, Force Choke. Thus arises my true inquiry, is it still Form 0 if not peaceful but instead one sided dominance, subversive tactics, or cloaking one's intention then striking out through the Force? I would be pleased to hear if this is fitting or too broad an interpretation of Form 0; from Master Ulios or others whom hold a deeper understanding of this Form.

Dark Side Form 0 would be using intimidation, manipulation, diversion and cunning. Don't be as hung up on the powers, so much as the general action. Form 0 is asking if activating the disco stick of death is required in this moment. A light sider will ask if it has come to this, a dark sider will ask if violence is worth it to them in that moment.

[DarthProdigal]

   There are enough literary examples of this for me to see what you are getting at. Conflict for the sake of conflict or unnecessary death serving no immediate purpose is often what many sucessful Sith had to learn to avoid. I still question limited applications of Force that look like Form 0 to my eye though. Obviously NOT an example in the movies when lightning its redirected back to cause damage with a lightsaber, but in a fantastic book a non-combat oriented Jedi Master uses no blade. He traps a Sith Lord inside a barrier with his own lightning almost destroying him. Heck, Yoda redirects it/ deflects it out of his palm with the force. I feel like a dog who wont let go of a bone, but I guess I thought I was onto something. Unless you're hinting at this being more Sokan, I create lightning>That is now part of the environment> Now my opponent used it against me? Though the entire written work that started this topic is still something I'm mulling over, I completed 1 read, it's surely factored into reanalyzing my own style. Blending MA movements and concepts learned into a flowing collective that's adaptable (with my nature) leaned toward improvised Juyo without my knowing. Now I keep looking for weaknesses to refine it, or prevent potential flaws being integrated in.  I appreciate the work that went into the Discourse, and the speedy reply. Also that you recovered a copy after it's loss. May the Force Serve You Well Master Jedi.

[Master Uilos]

   There are enough literary examples of this for me to see what you are getting at. Conflict for the sake of conflict or unnecessary death serving no immediate purpose is often what many sucessful Sith had to learn to avoid. I still question limited applications of Force that look like Form 0 to my eye though. Obviously NOT an example in the movies when lightning its redirected back to cause damage with a lightsaber, but in a fantastic book a non-combat oriented Jedi Master uses no blade. He traps a Sith Lord inside a barrier with his own lightning almost destroying him. Heck, Yoda redirects it/ deflects it out of his palm with the force. I feel like a dog who wont let go of a bone, but I guess I thought I was onto something. Unless you're hinting at this being more Sokan, I create lightning>That is now part of the environment> Now my opponent used it against me? Though the entire written work that started this topic is still something I'm mulling over, I completed 1 read, it's surely factored into reanalyzing my own style. Blending MA movements and concepts learned into a flowing collective that's adaptable (with my nature) leaned toward improvised Juyo without my knowing. Now I keep looking for weaknesses to refine it, or prevent potential flaws being integrated in.  I appreciate the work that went into the Discourse, and the speedy reply. Also that you recovered a copy after it's loss. May the Force Serve You Well Master Jedi.

The heart of Form Zero is no violence at all unless as a last resort. There is no technique about it, only ethics.

[DarthProdigal]

The heart of Form Zero is no violence at all unless as a last resort. There is no technique about it, only ethics.

  Yes, what I feared, just a concept my Sith wired brain had/has trouble accepting.

[SirLiftaLot]

Dark Side Form 0 would be using intimidation, manipulation, diversion and cunning. Don't be as hung up on the powers, so much as the general action. Form 0 is asking if activating the disco stick of death is required in this moment. A light sider will ask if it has come to this, a dark sider will ask if violence is worth it to them in that moment.

I see. I like this. I have a background in Tae Kwon Do, and my Grandmaster taught that the best fight is the one that never happened. I feel that this would be the heart of From 0? Even in a more "extreme" (self-sacrificing to a degree) example than using intimidation or diversion or persuasion to avoid a physical altercation, one could argue that even taking a hit to your ego and/or reputation in the eyes other people to de-escalate and walk away from a potential fight would be implementing Form 0? Walking away from a fight even if it means looking like a coward to people watching. Although I suppose this requires one to place little value on their ego and reputation, at least in regards to people who would be so easily swayed in their opinion of you based on an unnecessary fight.

[DarthProdigal]

   Sir, I'd have to agree with you. That kind of wisdom is the root of the concept, I just tried hard to expand on it. For better or worse, seeing what COULD fit under the umbrella, rather than just viewing the umbrella. I mainly agree because that ideology you're talking about becomes more and more important the more you learn in MA. If you keep gaining potentially dangerous skill and never learn to keep yourself in check... You become a deadly weapon with no safety switch. A powder keg, that can (and likely will) explode hurting somebody. Or run into a "bigger fish" that might teach you the hard way. Good you internalized his wisdom. My Master also ingrained that belief, the hard part (I've found IMO) is living it. Because then you must live with successes and failures of adherence. A failure being potentially much more haunting than a bruised ego.

[Master Uilos]

I see. I like this. I have a background in Tae Kwon Do, and my Grandmaster taught that the best fight is the one that never happened. I feel that this would be the heart of From 0? Even in a more "extreme" (self-sacrificing to a degree) example than using intimidation or diversion or persuasion to avoid a physical altercation, one could argue that even taking a hit to your ego and/or reputation in the eyes other people to de-escalate and walk away from a potential fight would be implementing Form 0? Walking away from a fight even if it means looking like a coward to people watching. Although I suppose this requires one to place little value on their ego and reputation, at least in regards to people who would be so easily swayed in their opinion of you based on an unnecessary fight.

Pretty much this, yes.

One of the things I try to teach is the mentality of people who would wield these weapons (I am not a Jedi Realist, just someone who researches warrior ethos). You have to accept that when you draw these weapons, someone may die. Some day, that person may be you. That's a powerful responsibility to give someone. And what I interpret to be a warrior is someone who would understand that choice and commit to it completely, and accept the consequences.

It's also one of the reasons the most dangerous people I know are the ones less likely looking to get in to a fight. What the hell do they have to brag about?

I hope this helps.

[obliviondoll]

Just passing through again to add the voice of another Sith lightsaber user here. Form 0 is an interesting topic, and there's a couple of important aspects, so I'll just share my view on the matter. Obviously, as with any interpretation of a concept from a fictional work, there's room for alternative interpretations. The basic idea here is that the Forms are how you fight, and Form 0 is the "non-form" of avoiding the fight. So with that in mind, lets look closer:

In terms of philosophy, the Jedi applications of Form 0 are about "I don't want to fight" and match the more self-defense oriented styles of martial arts. The best fight is the one that doesn't happen. Avoiding conflict is better than winning conflict. Finding a friend is better than defeating an enemy. Others have explained this in suitable depth already, so I'll move on to the alternative position.

The Sith focus less on Form 0, because the 7 forms are explicitly methods of CONFLICT, and Form 0 isn't just the non-use of a lightsaber, but the non-use of VIOLENCE to achieve an end. The use of powers in combat is referenced throughout many texts about the 7 forms, with some forms noted as being more or less likely to incorporate certain powers. The kinds of Force powers used would more likely define which of the 7 forms you're using the power as an extension or representation of, than to indicate the use of Form 0, even when no saber is being weilded. This doesn't, however, remove the non-form that is Form 0 as a tool for the Sith. Stealth is important. Manipulation, chaos and confusion are often best accomplished not just without a blade, but often also without direct aggression. Sometimes an application of the Force can be used indirectly to create the situation you want. Sometimes a ritual or Force-based action can redirect suspicion away from the Sith. The Sith take on Form 0 is when you make that approach against your enemies. The times where you're staying in the shadows, using your powers NOT to hurt the enemy directly, but to deceive them and keep them chasing shadows. Dominating a neutral party can lead the real enemies into a conflict which keeps them from interfering with your plans. Using the Force to sabotage something and make it look like an innocent party is the Sith spy. Simply doing what Palpatine is so well known for, and concealing your Force powers from the view of any prying minds can be a powerful part of the Sith application of Form 0. Instead of being unwilling to fight, the Sith use of Form 0 is knowing when a fight will compromise your goal instead of contributing to it. There is no compulsion to avoid fighting for the sake of peace, but there are times where you'll avoid one fight to make another battle more productive.

And in terms of real-world applications, both kinda of Form 0 are valid. The use of diplomacy and politeness and trying to de-escalate a fight are more likely to fit the Jedi approach to form 0. The use of distractions and diversionary tactics can be both, depending on the nature of such things. The use of scapegoats or outright threats and intimidation lean more toward the Sith ideal of the non-form. Tricking your enemies into fighting one another is something both Jedi and Sith have been known to do, but the Jedi do it because they don't want to fight, while the Sith will step in at the end and destroy both when they're too weak to fight back.

[DarthProdigal]

@ Obliviondoll: I appreciate a more adequate reflection/interpretation of my earlier query and attempted insights.

I'm too combat minded at times to equate the tactics that come to mind properly perhaps. I would not want to dissent from Master Ulios too terribly philosophically, considering I highly regard his accomplished works and opinions in general. I simply hoped my initial insight had some merit or relative accuracy within the ideology of Form 0. While understanding the entirety of my assertions may very well have been far from a "bulls-eye" in hitting the mark of Form 0, I didn't feel I missed the target entirely... Although my limited understanding may be finite, and the theoretical applications previously listed a slight twisting of the Form, that's kind of a representation of Sith ideology. For lack of a better term a "pure" Sith would have more of a tendency to do so. Leaving me at a loss to determine success or failure in embracing vs evolving the ideology. If trying to talk in terms of right and left lateral limits of the concept, I simply attempted to explore and push the boundary as far left or right as possible; to see if I was still in bounds, fell off the edge of the earth, or instead discovered new ground to stand on. Again I respect and contemplate upon the discourse in training with my lightsaber. If only to to better understand myself and the particulars of my own fighting style. Trying to see where I am and where I'm headed in more than just physical actions as my technique evolves. Seeking out guidance or supplemental wisdom of those with greater experience in realms other than my own. I truly appreciate Master Ulios (and other Masters) receipt of and responses to my inquiries or reflections upon my assertions. For I would be less without such valuable input.

[SirLiftaLot]

Just passing through again to add the voice of another Sith lightsaber user here. Form 0 is an interesting topic, and there's a couple of important aspects, so I'll just share my view on the matter. Obviously, as with any interpretation of a concept from a fictional work, there's room for alternative interpretations. The basic idea here is that the Forms are how you fight, and Form 0 is the "non-form" of avoiding the fight. So with that in mind, lets look closer:

In terms of philosophy, the Jedi applications of Form 0 are about "I don't want to fight" and match the more self-defense oriented styles of martial arts. The best fight is the one that doesn't happen. Avoiding conflict is better than winning conflict. Finding a friend is better than defeating an enemy. Others have explained this in suitable depth already, so I'll move on to the alternative position.

The Sith focus less on Form 0, because the 7 forms are explicitly methods of CONFLICT, and Form 0 isn't just the non-use of a lightsaber, but the non-use of VIOLENCE to achieve an end. The use of powers in combat is referenced throughout many texts about the 7 forms, with some forms noted as being more or less likely to incorporate certain powers. The kinds of Force powers used would more likely define which of the 7 forms you're using the power as an extension or representation of, than to indicate the use of Form 0, even when no saber is being weilded. This doesn't, however, remove the non-form that is Form 0 as a tool for the Sith. Stealth is important. Manipulation, chaos and confusion are often best accomplished not just without a blade, but often also without direct aggression. Sometimes an application of the Force can be used indirectly to create the situation you want. Sometimes a ritual or Force-based action can redirect suspicion away from the Sith. The Sith take on Form 0 is when you make that approach against your enemies. The times where you're staying in the shadows, using your powers NOT to hurt the enemy directly, but to deceive them and keep them chasing shadows. Dominating a neutral party can lead the real enemies into a conflict which keeps them from interfering with your plans. Using the Force to sabotage something and make it look like an innocent party is the Sith spy. Simply doing what Palpatine is so well known for, and concealing your Force powers from the view of any prying minds can be a powerful part of the Sith application of Form 0. Instead of being unwilling to fight, the Sith use of Form 0 is knowing when a fight will compromise your goal instead of contributing to it. There is no compulsion to avoid fighting for the sake of peace, but there are times where you'll avoid one fight to make another battle more productive.

And in terms of real-world applications, both kinda of Form 0 are valid. The use of diplomacy and politeness and trying to de-escalate a fight are more likely to fit the Jedi approach to form 0. The use of distractions and diversionary tactics can be both, depending on the nature of such things. The use of scapegoats or outright threats and intimidation lean more toward the Sith ideal of the non-form. Tricking your enemies into fighting one another is something both Jedi and Sith have been known to do, but the Jedi do it because they don't want to fight, while the Sith will step in at the end and destroy both when they're too weak to fight back.

Sounds like some Sun Tzu Art of War type strategy, where sometimes winning a battle, even if you easily have the power to, is not always the best strategy to win the war.

[Hulk10]

My Tai Kwon Do teacher always preached Courtesy, Integrity, Indominable Spirit and Believing in yourself. He also preached following your own path. All of these are vital in a Jedi and in life in general.  He said that anyone can learn to kick and punch, but not everyone can learn to follow their own path.

Since I am rather impatient and impulsive I think that Form V specifically Djem So suits me best. Also since I favor strength over speed. I prefer to take direct action rather than sneaking around.

[NottaChance]

Anyone else getting a 404 on the Dropbox link to the doc?

[DarthProdigal]

Anyone else getting a 404 on the Dropbox link to the doc?

Did you try the link re-posted half way down on page 15 of this topic? Go back one page and try that one, it just worked for me when I double checked it. It's the longer hyperlink from Master Ulios.

[Nethendol]

For form 6 Ninan, because of it being the moderation form, I know that it used only so many moves at a time from each of the first five forms. But does it use heavy moves as well as basic moves, or just basic moves?