Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat: A Discourse

[Darth Nonymous]

Playing a sith character is one thing. But applying those sith tendencies to saber play is dangerous. You can and will hurt someone doing it that way.

Many members have expressed their reluctance to duel someone focusing on sith variants of vaapad for this very reason.

The way of the saber thread is really for us to share ideas about how to interpret the forms and build lightsaber fighting styles for display and light dueling.

These are weapons, every but as dangerous as a solid oak bokken. If you start "hulking out" with one in your hands you are a danger to yourself abd any potential dueling or choreography parts.

Acting like a sith, ie pretending to be one during a public display is fine but it's just that: acting.

This is one type of performance art that method acting should absolutely never be used in.

We have other threads we can discuss Jedi/sith/barranco/potentium/jenseerai philosophy in.

Good points. I would like to mention that with the use of protective gear like fencing masks and hockey gloves, along with any full contact sports equipment can actually prevent far more injuries when you are going full speed and power as when you are unprotected doing light stuff.

I don't think people would be using the "Sith" stuff of going ballistic if they were allowed to be shown how ineffective it is. We throw the armor on and can just go. You want to go Berserker on VorNach and myself (Which has happened on numerous accessions) , good luck. Since neither party fears hurting the other or getting seriously hurt themselves, it allows for freer play.

But, supervision from an experienced instructor is a must if you are fighting. Even Jedi style.

[Master Uilos]

Prozac.

Being from an Aikido background, I consider myself a Master of Form 0.  “The best way to win a fight is to not be there when it begins,” is what my first sensei told us all the time.  However, you can’t really demonstrate Form 0 and make it look all flashy.

For that reason, I am learning the ways of Form I: Shii-Cho.  Everyone says that Shii-Cho is just a beginner form, but the same can be said for all martial forms until you get past the beginning stages.  Being Aikido, I am drawn slightly toward your descriptions of Form V: Shien.  However, there is some little things that I do not entirely agree with regarding those.

As for Shii-Cho, even Jedi Masters specialized in it (Master Kit Fisto, for one).  However, the true sign of Mastery is to take something and make it your own; adding your own flare and knowledge to build an art.  For me, I plan to do so by demonstrating it in a Dynamic Sphere.  Also, learning Shii-Cho for the use of other weapons, such as a saberpike, saberstaff, and twin shoto sabers.

Finally, spinning.  I believe that spinning is essential to lightsaber forms.  It is not just flashy and showy, it has a practical purpose.  It limbers the wrists, teaches blocking and striking principles, and aids with misdirection.  Anyone who has ever dueled knows the pain that can come from tight muscles.  Even basic kata work without proper stretching can hurt.  Moving the saber quickly from one zone to another to block is a necessity whether dueling one person or many.  Finally, with a twirling blade, who knows where the attack will come from… only your choreography partner.

and now, my rant on shii cho

Form 1 is seen as the beginners form. It's simple, basic, not too pretty to look at. most study it and move on, only keeping the lesson and not the style from the form as they feel the others are better.

Screw that. shii cho is a siege engine, a shotgun burst in a crowded hallway. It eats battlground, making the opponent panic and limiting their options. It's a bulldozer, or a buzzsaw.
And I'm learning to apply it with my guard-shotos.

And now, my rant on spinning

Spinning without purpose is Bull$%^t. If I had a nickel for every person I've seen do an obi-ani spin mid fight for no reason than just to show off, I'd be a wealthy man. If I had a dime for anytime they were spinning vaguely and calling it Ataru, I'd double my fortune.

That being said, you are holding a giant glowstick of death. We are all naturally inclined to follow light, spins can be good distracting measures, a flourish can be a way to distract/feint/or set up for a next attack. A well placed spin can gain you cover, or transition to an attack or block that would lead you open any other way. In short, a spin must have purpose.

And now, for Juyo.

Do not confuse letting your emotions take control for being out of control. Juyo is about taking your emotions, especially the Joy of Combat and funneling it into your attacks. Yes, your primary focus is emotions, you still have a brain between your ears (or wherever your species carries brain-like masses). Remember, the Sith are all about one thing: Power and Controlling it. The Sith who were no in control of power were soon killed by their enemies or their Masters/Apprentices

[Master Uilos]

Acting like a sith, ie pretending to be one during a public display is fine but it's just that: acting.

This is one type of performance art that method acting should absolutely never be used in.

We have other threads we can discuss Jedi/sith/barranco/potentium/jenseerai philosophy in.

This is a fair, accurate, and valid point. Remember, the paper was more inclined towards Stage Combat and helping them better understanding performing the forms, though damned if I was going to let it just stop there.

But this also comes to the conclusion that Juyo is equivalent to Berzerkgang. It isn't. Think of Juyo as less Incredible Hulk and more Hannibal Lecter. The emotion is there, but it is behind cold, sadistic rationality. At least, both are possible, I just tend to favor the former (it scares me more).

As far as the philosophy goes, I'm willing to discuss Sith Philosophy as it relates to saber combat on this thread, as it is relevant to understanding Both sides of Lightsaber combat.

[Darth Nonymous]

Spinning without purpose is Bull$%^t. If I had a nickel for every person I've seen do an obi-ani spin mid fight for no reason than just to show off, I'd be a wealthy man.

I blame the movie. That's exactly what Obiwan and Anakin did in the fight scene.

Worst fight moment ever.

[Master Uilos]

I blame the movie. That's exactly what Obiwan and Anakin did in the fight scene.

Worst fight moment ever.

Where they stopped, popped, and locked for about 20 seconds without actually acknowledging the other existed? Yeah. That's the reason I continue to repeat the phrase: Do not look to the movies to find the forms, ESPECIALLY THE PREQUELS. Look to the writings first.

[Darth Nonymous]

Where they stopped, popped, and locked for about 20 seconds without actually acknowledging the other existed? Yeah. That's the reason I continue to repeat the phrase: Do not look to the movies to find the forms, ESPECIALLY THE PREQUELS. Look to the writings first.

Yes, the sword play in the films is terrible. Just terrible.

[Master Lucien Kane]

and now, my rant on shii cho

Form 1 is seen as the beginners form. It's simple, basic, not too pretty to look at. most study it and move on, only keeping the lesson and not the style from the form as they feel the others are better.

Screw that. shii cho is a siege engine, a shotgun burst in a crowded hallway. It eats battlground, making the opponent panic and limiting their options. It's a bulldozer, or a buzzsaw.
And I'm learning to apply it with my guard-shotos.

And now, my rant on spinning

Spinning without purpose is Bull$%^t. If I had a nickel for every person I've seen do an obi-ani spin mid fight for no reason than just to show off, I'd be a wealthy man. If I had a dime for anytime they were spinning vaguely and calling it Ataru, I'd double my fortune.

That being said, you are holding a giant glowstick of death. We are all naturally inclined to follow light, spins can be good distracting measures, a flourish can be a way to distract/feint/or set up for a next attack. A well placed spin can gain you cover, or transition to an attack or block that would lead you open any other way. In short, a spin must have purpose.

And now, for Juyo.

Do not confuse letting your emotions take control for being out of control. Juyo is about taking your emotions, especially the Joy of Combat and funneling it into your attacks. Yes, your primary focus is emotions, you still have a brain between your ears (or wherever your species carries brain-like masses). Remember, the Sith are all about one thing: Power and Controlling it. The Sith who were no in control of power were soon killed by their enemies or their Masters/Apprentices

Pretty much mirrored my thoughts on all three subjects.

[Veldryne]

The spin has actually helped me a fair bit lately. It's been improving my one handed controll a great deal as I work to make the spins tighter.

Where it really helped me, is with tight in, low sweeping blocks. While sparring last week, as I shifted position and my opponent was outside to my right after the previous exchange. I went into the spin, protecting my right side and he came in as I was bringing the blade back around to the front. With the momentum I had, I actually managed to over extend him. And the impact snapped my blade back lightly for a shoulder tap.

Took us both a minute to actually realist what happened.




I'll agree though, standing there doing it in a fight is useless. But used defensively while moving it does have a purpose.

[Master Uilos]

The spin has actually helped me a fair bit lately. It's been improving my one handed controll a great deal as I work to make the spins tighter.

Where it really helped me, is with tight in, low sweeping blocks. While sparring last week, as I shifted position and my opponent was outside to my right after the previous exchange. I went into the spin, protecting my right side and he came in as I was bringing the blade back around to the front. With the momentum I had, I actually managed to over extend him. And the impact snapped my blade back lightly for a shoulder tap.

Took us both a minute to actually realist what happened.




I'll agree though, standing there doing it in a fight is useless. But used defensively while moving it does have a purpose.

Agreed completely.

Again, keep in mind that my basis for disdain towards spinning comes from the stage combat side of it.

The whole point of the forms, at least in my perspective, is to aid in characterizing the multitude of lightsaber wielders in the series. Note: The Forms were developed near the end of the prequels development. Nick Gillard confirms he didn't have any of these in mind when he developed the fights, and while he is a great fight coordinator, Lucas gave him crap to work with. The prequel fights a visually more dynamic than the Original, but emotional dead (with the exception of the phantom menace fight, but that had more to do with Ray Park forcing everyone to up their game). 

[Veldryne]

Yeah thats understandable. Man I'd pay like 1000 dollars for a three hour class with ray park...

[Master Rel]

and now, my rant on shii cho

Form 1 is seen as the beginners form. It's simple, basic, not too pretty to look at. most study it and move on, only keeping the lesson and not the style from the form as they feel the others are better.

Screw that. shii cho is a siege engine, a shotgun burst in a crowded hallway. It eats battlground, making the opponent panic and limiting their options. It's a bulldozer, or a buzzsaw.
And I'm learning to apply it with my guard-shotos.

And now, my rant on spinning

Spinning without purpose is Bull$%^t. If I had a nickel for every person I've seen do an obi-ani spin mid fight for no reason than just to show off, I'd be a wealthy man. If I had a dime for anytime they were spinning vaguely and calling it Ataru, I'd double my fortune.

That being said, you are holding a giant glowstick of death. We are all naturally inclined to follow light, spins can be good distracting measures, a flourish can be a way to distract/feint/or set up for a next attack. A well placed spin can gain you cover, or transition to an attack or block that would lead you open any other way. In short, a spin must have purpose.

And now, for Juyo.

Do not confuse letting your emotions take control for being out of control. Juyo is about taking your emotions, especially the Joy of Combat and funneling it into your attacks. Yes, your primary focus is emotions, you still have a brain between your ears (or wherever your species carries brain-like masses). Remember, the Sith are all about one thing: Power and Controlling it. The Sith who were no in control of power were soon killed by their enemies or their Masters/Apprentices
[/quote

sith are about one thing and one thing only...the selfish pursuit of power at any cost...

Good thoughts about the styles 

[Volund Starfire]

and now, my rant on shii cho…

Excellent point, my friend.  I see Form I as being the original form for a reason.  At the time it was created, saber duels were more formal and traditional, much in the way of the Samurai duels in feudal Japan.  Otherwise, the saberist was fighting through a group wielding standard weapons and firearms/blasters.

When two duelists did face each other, it was quick and succinct.  I see them as similar to renaissance fencing duels, but with the Japanese-inspired moves and counters.  They could be long and drawn out or they could be one slash and done, either way depends on the skill of both combatants.

Samurai styles, much like Shii-Cho, were not designed for dueling.   In fact, the first combat styles of the Katana were used for quickly disarming opponents as you cross the battlefield… the shotgun blast down the hallway.  It was modified into the dueling form of Kendo soon after the Katana began seeing wide-spread use.  Formalized, it was still effective against the common battlefield (multiple opponents, multiple weapon styles, and multiple scenarios).

It is also the first fighting style and was thus used for multiple forms of combat.  Like the training of the katana, naginata, waskizashi, bo and other Samurai/kendo weapons, Shii-cho was useful and used for the lightsaber, saberpike, shoto, and saberstaff.

And now, my rant on spinning

Again, agreed.  Once you get into combat, a spin is just opening yourself to your opponent giving you a new orifice in your chest.

[Master Rel]

I wouldn't slam the Star Wars film saber fights too much...they are 100% the reason this site exists...our mutual appreciation of the sabers and the fights.

 

[Luna]

I wouldn't slam the Star Wars film saber fights too much...they are 100% the reason this site exists...our mutual appreciation of the sabers and the fights.

 

Yes, but isn't it our jobs, as true fans, to hate and whine about every aspect of the films?

[Master Rel]

Yes, but isn't it our jobs, as true fans, to hate and whine about every aspect of the films?

It would seem so...but oh so lovingly right?