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Author Topic: Vader vs Batman!  (Read 3285 times)
Darth Cephalus
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« on: November 26, 2015, 04:34:26 AM »

The subject title says it all.

www.facebook.com/ignbrasil/videos/1656578307928109/
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Gorobulus
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2015, 05:41:17 PM »

As usual, Superman ruins what otherwise was a good battle. Ive never liked Superman. There is nothing compelling about him as a character. He has no dark secrets in his soul, no human conflict within that drives his actions. Hes simply a walking poster for good. A beer commercial for righteousness. Hes like Hulk Hogan in the 80's telling us to train, eat our vitamins and say our prayers. Great, when you're a 9 year old, tolerable when you're 12 and absolutely vomit inducing for anyone above 15. The fact hes so overpowered that he can basically just run over anyone and anything makes him even more irritating.

Frankly I don't know how anyone can relate to Superman. If I had his powers Id be much more like Hancock than Id ever be like Superman. Both Batman and Darth Vader are much more human and relatable characters, because even though one is good and the other is evil, they both have very human issues and conflicts that drive their characters and the way they view and interact with the world around them. I couldn't for the life of me tell you why Superman is the way he is or does the things he does except to say he was raised by Ma and Pa Kettle, and served a steady diet of American apple pie.
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2015, 07:10:57 AM »

Funny thanks for the amusing post. batman ugh , and  superman well err...... i could never back someone that can be defeated by a small rock  Shocked

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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2015, 01:09:12 AM »

I really hate that whole "can't relate to Superman" thing.  SO what?  Do you have to relate to every character?  There are relatable character then there are characters that aren't meant to be relatable.   BTW, it isn't the rock that hurts him...it's the radiation coming from the rock. 
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2015, 04:30:18 AM »

The appeal comes from the fact that he is an alien, which in a world where the current political discussion involves refugees, is extremely relevant. He was created by two Jews during the late 1930's and the following years brought a large number of immigrants to America.

Superman deals with a very human conflict: "With all this power, what should I do?"

We all have the potential for great evil in this world, but also the potential for compassion and generosity; both traits Kal-El has in spades. He represents an ideal to strive towards, rather than a complete withdrawal front the world around you. For all intents an purposes Batman is legally insane and in no way shape or form should his example be followed. Trying to actively distance yourself from any and all relationship with other humans is not healthy.

Batman was infinitely more relatable as a child, because I too, lost my parents; what better way for a child to deal with that than watching a costumed superhero deal with the same thing. However, had I dealt with my problems the way Bruce Wayne did, I wouldn't be typing this right now, I would be out hurting people (for justice) or in prison or more than likely dead.

Superman offered a brighter future to me as a child and does to this day.

P.S. - One more conflict than Kal-El has to deal with endlessly: "You can't save everyone. You can't be everywhere, every minute, but you can hear them all."
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« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2015, 08:41:45 AM »

The appeal comes from the fact that he is an alien, which in a world where the current political discussion involves refugees, is extremely relevant. He was created by two Jews during the late 1930's and the following years brought a large number of immigrants to America.

Superman deals with a very human conflict: "With all this power, what should I do?"

We all have the potential for great evil in this world, but also the potential for compassion and generosity; both traits Kal-El has in spades. He represents an ideal to strive towards, rather than a complete withdrawal front the world around you. For all intents an purposes Batman is legally insane and in no way shape or form should his example be followed. Trying to actively distance yourself from any and all relationship with other humans is not healthy.

Batman was infinitely more relatable as a child, because I too, lost my parents; what better way for a child to deal with that than watching a costumed superhero deal with the same thing. However, had I dealt with my problems the way Bruce Wayne did, I wouldn't be typing this right now, I would be out hurting people (for justice) or in prison or more than likely dead.

Superman offered a brighter future to me as a child and does to this day.

P.S. - One more conflict than Kal-El has to deal with endlessly: "You can't save everyone. You can't be everywhere, every minute, but you can hear them all."

Well said my friend.  It's nice to see there are still those out there who know this.
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Gorobulus
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« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2015, 06:35:24 PM »

The appeal comes from the fact that he is an alien, which in a world where the current political discussion involves refugees, is extremely relevant. He was created by two Jews during the late 1930's and the following years brought a large number of immigrants to America.
I don't see how the era a character was created in has anything to do with whether he is a compelling character or not. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein was first published in 1818, yet both Victor Frankenstein and the monster are both infinitely more compelling characters than Superman.

Quote
Superman deals with a very human conflict: "With all this power, what should I do?"
But its what he does with it that's totally not believable. History has shown time and time again when someone attains absolute power over those around them that they do not do the right thing. History is replete with tyrants, dictators, kings and emperors who bring death, destruction and war to those they rule.
 "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."- Lord John Dalberg-Acton.
Superman may represent what we all like to THINK we would do if we had such power, but history shows that very rarely that is what we actually end up doing with it. And its that fact that makes Supermans behavior hard to swallow for me.

Quote
We all have the potential for great evil in this world, but also the potential for compassion and generosity; both traits Kal-El has in spades. He represents an ideal to strive towards, rather than a complete withdrawal front the world around you

Agreed, as you just said human nature is conflicted. We are constantly torn in our lives between doing the right thing or the wrong things. But Superman represents one without ever having to deal with the other within himself. Very few people are innately purely good the way Superman is. And that's what puts me off about him.

 
Quote
For all intents an purposes Batman is legally insane and in no way shape or form should his example be followed. Trying to actively distance yourself from any and all relationship with other humans is not healthy.

Batman was infinitely more relatable as a child, because I too, lost my parents; what better way for a child to deal with that than watching a costumed superhero deal with the same thing. However, had I dealt with my problems the way Bruce Wayne did, I wouldn't be typing this right now, I would be out hurting people (for justice) or in prison or more than likely dead

Again, here I agree with you. But I never said Batman was an example to follow, I said he was a compelling character with very real human issues and conflicts that people can relate to, and you especially can relate to on a very personal level. So while you were intelligent enough to know this is a fictional character and not an example to follow, you did understand him, you did relate to him.

By far Superman would be the more ideal example to follow and if that's what his purpose is then great. As I said, in the 1980's Hulk Hogan played out the very same ideals and children all over the world idolized him for it. So clearly that formula works. I just said it isn't compelling, you literally have to be a child for it to have any weight.
 When we grow up and see for ourselves how the world really is and how little of that ideology is in the real world it becomes harder and harder to relate to characters that are infinitely good, or even infinitely evil. Real people are shades of grey and so the most compelling characters in literature usually are to.

Quote
Superman offered a brighter future to me as a child and does to this day.
So did Luke Skywalker, but Luke is way more relatable and compelling because he starts off as the everyman. Hes based on mythological motifs that have been around for thousands of years. We can follow his journey and he deals with very real human issues over the course of his journey. He has elements of good and evil in him. He does the right thing, but he has it in him to do the wrong thing as well. And its the struggle that we can relate to. Hes a deep and complex character that we learn, as he does, that hes part of a much bigger story with much bigger consequences and implications than he ever thought.

Superman also does the right thing, but he seems to do it for no other reason than that's the way he was written to be. I don't say Superman doesn't offer a brighter future. I say his reasons for doing so aren't compelling. Basically hes written in such a way as to say, don't worry about why he always saves the day and does the right thing, just know that he will. Again, great for a child, but tough for me to swallow.

Quote
P.S. - One more conflict than Kal-El has to deal with endlessly: "You can't save everyone. You can't be everywhere, every minute, but you can hear them all."

Ahh yes, but can we not also hear them all to? Do we not just have to turn on CNN or MSNBC to see and hear the suffering going on all over the world?
And how many of us actually do anything about it? We watch, we say "wow that's terrible" and then we return to our lives and go about our business. That is the harsh truth of the world we live in. And I am just as guilty as the rest.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke



« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 07:11:03 PM by Gorobulus » Logged

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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2015, 07:34:42 PM »

Let me preface this with: We are not having a debate, you said "I don't know how anyone can relate to Superman" and I am telling you why people relate to Superman. This is not based on my personal opinion (with the exception of the previous example of my childhood), this is based on sentiments expressed by others about this character.


Quote
I don't see how the era a character was created in has anything to do with whether he is a compelling character or not. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein was first published in 1818, yet both Victor Frankenstein and the monster are both infinitely more compelling characters than Superman.

Tell that to underrepresented black children in the 70's when Luke Cage or John Stewart graced the pages of comics or more recently Miles Morales, Kamala Khan and Simon Baz. Comic books are extremely telling of the times in which they are written; be it race (Green Lantern/ Green Arrow), drugs (Green Arrow), gender (Wonder Woman), etc.

Quote
But its what he does with it that's totally not believable. History has shown time and time again when someone attains absolute power over those around them that they do not do the right thing. History is replete with tyrants, dictators, kings and emperors who bring death, destruction and war to those they rule.
 "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."- Lord John Dalberg-Acton.
Superman may represent what we all like to THINK we would do if we had such power, but history shows that very rarely that is what we actually end up doing with it. And its that fact that makes Supermans behavior hard to swallow for me.

It doesn't matter what history shows, Superman (Kal-El) is a fictional character. Written to be an arbiter of truth and justice in a fictional world. So while sound, this part of your argument is not valid.

Quote
Superman also does the right thing, but he seems to do it for no other reason than that's the way he was written to be. I don't say Superman doesn't offer a brighter future. I say his reasons for doing so aren't compelling. Basically hes written in such a way to say, don't worry about why he always saves the say and does the right thing, just know that he will. Again, great for a child, but tough for me to swallow.

Superman is a compelling character because: He does the right thing, because it's the right thing to do; this is not a difficult concept. It is much harder to be forgiving and generous in a world of pettiness and selfishness. However, doing the right thing doesn't mean everyone will come out on top, someone always gets hurt. Kal has every opportunity to take the easy road and rule us all (Black Adam), but instead chooses to hold himself to a higher standard, fully aware of the power he controls and fear he instills. That is why people find him to be an interesting character.

Quote
Ahh yes, but can we not also hear them all to? Do we not just have to turn on CNN or MSNBC to see and hear the suffering going on all over the world?
And how many of us actually do anything about it? We watch, we say "wow that's terrible" and then we return to our lives and go about our business. That is the harsh truth of the world we live in. And I am just as guilty as the rest.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" - Edmund Burke

Not for the people who had to sift through the rubble of the World Trade Center or the recent attacks in Paris. Every single day there are men and women who put their lives and bodies on the line and at the end of the day they get to live with the fact that they can't save everyone. With no powers and only human determination, they are the real superheroes, but Superman is supposed to be like a god unto us and even still, he cannot keep everyone safe.

______________________________

In closing, You and I could go back and forth endlessly about this, but when all is said and done, this boils down to what you said in your original post: You can't relate to Superman...and that is 100% okay, but there are MANY people who do.

+1 to you.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 08:14:55 PM by Kham-Ryn Kurios » Logged


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Gorobulus
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« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2015, 08:12:23 PM »

Let me preface this with: We are not having a debate, you said "I don't know how anyone can relate to Superman" and I am telling you why people relate to Superman.
In closing, You and I could go back and forth endlessly about this, but when all is said and done, this boils down to what you said in your original post: You can't relate to Superman...and that is 100% okay, but there a MANY people who do. To say that Superman is not a compelling character is more telling of you than Superman himself.

+1 to you.

You are right. Clearly many people do find Superman to be a compelling character. Logic suggests he would not have survived as long as he has if he were not.
But I do not understand why nor will I ever, since to me he is as transparent as plastic wrap and his character about as deep as a bedpan.
Clearly you and I are very far apart in our thinking about what constitutes a compelling character and why, and as you say that's 100% ok.
I agree also that there is very little point in us going on endlessly about it. Weve established that we see things differently and it needn't go further than that. So I will leave you with a +1 myself.

EDIT: Please do not take it as a sign of disrespect or dismissal that I didn't address the rest of your post. Clearly by the last part of your post you wanted to bring an end to the debate aspect of the discussion and I agreed with your reasons why.  Its sufficient enough to say that I don't agree with most of it.
(Except for that part about the people who sifted through the rubble of twin towers and the attacks in Paris. There I agree with you, they are the true superheroes.)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 09:15:47 PM by Gorobulus » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2015, 09:56:45 PM »

"Agreed, as you just said human nature is conflicted. We are constantly torn in our lives between doing the right thing or the wrong things. But Superman represents one without ever having to deal with the other within himself. Very few people are innately purely good the way Superman is. And that's what puts me off about him."
(Oops I deleted the quote thing...)
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Darth Cephalus
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« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2015, 01:41:55 AM »

I have to say that I did not see a debate of this magnitude coming when I posted the original link. That said, I think the issue here is one of genre preference. Superman and Batman are inherently different concepts.

Batman is an antihero. He accomplishes good deeds in questionable ways often with less than ideal outcomes. He is designed to be realistic to a certain extent and to be relate-able. It is an old format that still works well today. JHe is also a triumphant underdog charachter who works in a landscape people with gods and holds his own. All in all, a very Byronic character. The costumed element adds a bit of allegory but the core of the human motivation behind the actions of the characters (even if they are over the top representations of different philosophical views) remains intact.

Batman was a good pair for Vader because they are of the same ilk. Batman is an antihero whereas Vader is an anti-villain. Both dwell in shades of grey and are planted in a realistic look at the flawed and conflicted nature of the human psyche.

Superman works with an older system. Before characters had to be relate-able (before the first literary humanist movement), we still had characters. They existed in lore and mythology. Superman is a more modern example. When Alan Moore writes him, he is even referred to as a sun god. I have always found this to be the most appropriate way to look at him. The scope is different. The enemies are bigger, the stakes are greater, etc. Superman seldom stops a back alley assault, and when he does it is treated rather tongue in cheek. He does not live in the real world, he lives in an archetypal metropolis and protects the earth rather than streets. People find value in him for the same reason that people have always needed myth: because sometimes you can't talk about the real things without making them unreal.

I think the triumph of DC comics in the modern age has always been in their ability to seat these two at the same table; by humanizing Superman and abstracting Batman into an archetype. They have even managed to take a character like the Flash, who was so dumb in the 70s, and turn it into a pivotal piece of speculative sci-fi. They like to have their cake and eat it too. These characters are never fully real though never fully cartoon. I would say that this is what moves them well ahead of Marvel, but that would be to open yet another can of worms.
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