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Author Topic: Sith Academy: Korriban  (Read 45038 times)
Darth Logos
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« on: January 27, 2016, 07:08:04 AM »

Welcome to the Sith Academy. This is a place to learn about all things Dark Side (and maybe a few things that aren't so much).

Feel free to ask and answer questions as your knowledge base allows.

As previously stated, this is a thread for learning, for Sith and Jedi alike, who seek to know more about the Dark Side. There will be NO FEUDING.



The inspiration of this idea came from another thread, by a newbie that was unfamiliar with the term "Dark Jedi." So to get the ball rolling....


Many don't know the difference between a Sith and a Dark Jedi. For me, the first defining encounter was found in the book Legacy of Evil (the conclusion of the Darth Bane trilogy). Where the Sith are the mortal enemies of the Jedi. They are Dark Side adept but serve a higher order. A Dark Jedi is a Jedi that has left the order, has a vague understanding of the Dark Side and aren't afraid to use it. But mainly they just seek to benefit themselves and the attainment of power to further that end. They are not terribly in to following orders, so becoming a Sith is not high on their priority list, either.

Another noted instance is in The Force Unleashed, when Maris Brood turns to the Dark Side. Despite the convenient use of red blades, she was not Sith, but merely Dark Jedi.

Hope this answers your question, Layana.
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Layana
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Dark side points please ^^


« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 07:25:03 AM »

Yes, pretty much, thank you Smiley
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ArtoriusaurusRex
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2016, 07:56:55 AM »

Alright. Seeking a non-biased answer to this question: "Is the Dark Side more powerful than the Light Side?"




Yes, I consider Yoda to be biased, lol
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2016, 08:21:33 AM »

Alright. Seeking a non-biased answer to this question: "Is the Dark Side more powerful than the Light Side?"

Yes, I consider Yoda to be biased, lol

It depends. My stance is that the power, or rather strength, of the Dark Side comes from the emotions one draws from when using it. Anger, Fear, Hatred. These are very strong negative emotions, which might explain why the Dark Side takes such a toll on its followers. Just as stress can manifest itself physically in the body, so too can these emotions reek havoc from being sustained for long periods. There have been cases of people actually "dying of a broken heart." They are emotionally wounded so badly that they have no to live and the body simply shuts down. Case in point: Padme Skywalker.

I have theorized though, that powerful positive emotions (Joy, Hope, Love) could be drawn from with similar effective strength. It was stated that Darth Plagueis had the ability to "prevent death" in others, but it is also noted that the Dark Side cannot be used to heal. For me this raises the question, did Darth Plagueis draw off these positive emotions despite being a Sith Lord?

Since the Jedi strive to remove emotion from their respective equation, I believe it limits the strength they get from the Force. Yes there are some Jedi of noted strength in the Force, Yoda for example. But think about how powerful he might be if he drew on his emotions. Shocked
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ArtoriusaurusRex
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2016, 08:37:47 AM »

It depends. My stance is that the power, or rather strength, of the Dark Side comes from the emotions one draws from when using it. Anger, Fear, Hatred. These are very strong negative emotions, which might explain why the Dark Side takes such a toll on its followers. Just as stress can manifest itself physically in the body, so too can these emotions reek havoc from being sustained for long periods. There have been cases of people actually "dying of a broken heart." They are emotionally wounded so badly that they have no to live and the body simply shuts down. Case in point: Padme Skywalker.

I have theorized though, that powerful positive emotions (Joy, Hope, Love) could be drawn from with similar effective strength. It was stated that Darth Plagueis had the ability to "prevent death" in others, but it is also noted that the Dark Side cannot be used to heal. For me this raises the question, did Darth Plagueis draw off these positive emotions despite being a Sith Lord?

Since the Jedi strive to remove emotion from their respective equation, I believe it limits the strength they get from the Force. Yes there are some Jedi of noted strength in the Force, Yoda for example. But think about how powerful he might be if he drew on his emotions. Shocked


I was wondering about the positive emotional aspect of the Dark Side. It seems as though emotions like Joy, Exhilaration, Love, or even Righteous Anger (as opposed to Hatred) are not embraced by Darkside users.


Perhaps because there is no Willpower to dominate the Force behind those emotions? The Darkside is, unless I"m mistaken, based on the foundation of capturing the Force and bending it to the user's will, right?



And enslaving something, perhaps, cannot be done with positive emotions. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2016, 09:35:08 AM »


I was wondering about the positive emotional aspect of the Dark Side. It seems as though emotions like Joy, Exhilaration, Love, or even Righteous Anger (as opposed to Hatred) are not embraced by Darkside users.

Perhaps because there is no Willpower to dominate the Force behind those emotions? The Darkside is, unless I"m mistaken, based on the foundation of capturing the Force and bending it to the user's will, right?

And enslaving something, perhaps, cannot be done with positive emotions. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Positive emotions are generally non-selfish.
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2016, 10:09:04 AM »

While positive emotions aren't part of enslaving, they can be part of *convincing*--winning another over to one's point of view to then hopefully do as you would like them to do.  I get the impression the Jedi are so passive in their approach that they see even convincing the Force to their will as wrong.
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2016, 10:10:56 AM »

Alright. Seeking a non-biased answer to this question: "Is the Dark Side more powerful than the Light Side?"


Yes, indeed if the success criteria is a high level of emotional burst and altering the physical world around in a short period of time.
- I guess everyone experienced this is some sort: if you need to lift heavy weight or run quickly without being tired, the more fear/anger/hatred you have in mind the more appropriate the effect will be.
- It's very hard to lift off a car from your child out of love: it's the fear of loosing which helps.

No, if the success criterias are binded to a certain condition of harmony and weightlessness.
- it's always love (it's not an emotion!!), the forgiveness, the "let things to be as they are"-attitude which helps to be independent from anything not PRESENT in a given moment.
- this requires constant control over the mind and constant focus on letting things go without being attached to any of them. However this focus can widen the awareness (how paradoxical it sounds) while the Dark Side distracts and let the emotions build judgements which can fuel the emotion further on the term "what's right or wrong".

So it really depends Smiley
Mace Windu is an excellent character in the book of Ep3 (written by Matthew Stover) showing how the two can contaminate and with some strong control be utilized to overcome certain situations one or the other way could not resolve alone. Also not a coincidence that it was Mace developing a saber style (Vapaad) around this very unique and hard approach.

Certainly the way of the Dark Side is smoother and easier - it is actually automatic, that's why it's easy. You have unconscious concepts supported and covered by emotions which are the automatic chemical resonses of your body to the mind. You just have to let it express itself repeatedly and there you go, power comes. However it's the very same thing limiting it to only a few narrow ways of use - from a dark jedi to become a sith it's a huge leap forward and requires the user to revaluate a lot of things. Which means getting out of the comfort zone and change. Only a few can do that Wink
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ArtoriusaurusRex
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2016, 10:47:50 AM »

It's interesting to compare the "magic" of the Force to the magic of other fictional universes.


For example, a certain emotional magic of Harry Potter's universe, conjuring a Patronus, requires intense focus on a *very* positive memory/emotion.



Would that work with the Force? It's a question I can't answer. But I can guess.


And my guess is, no, it wouldn't work. Because the Force can't be dominated by a happy memory.



I don't even think it would work on the Light side, because using the Light side is, to my understanding, making a request and stepping aside to allow the Force to act on that request.
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2016, 11:11:32 AM »

While positive emotions aren't part of enslaving, they can be part of *convincing*--winning another over to one's point of view to then hopefully do as you would like them to do.  I get the impression the Jedi are so passive in their approach that they see even convincing the Force to their will as wrong.

Jedi Mind Trick ring any bells?

Yes, indeed if the success criteria is a high level of emotional burst and altering the physical world around in a short period of time.
- I guess everyone experienced this is some sort: if you need to lift heavy weight or run quickly without being tired, the more fear/anger/hatred you have in mind the more appropriate the effect will be.
- It's very hard to lift off a car from your child out of love: it's the fear of loosing which helps.

No, if the success criterias are binded to a certain condition of harmony and weightlessness.
- it's always love (it's not an emotion!!), the forgiveness, the "let things to be as they are"-attitude which helps to be independent from anything not PRESENT in a given moment.
- this requires constant control over the mind and constant focus on letting things go without being attached to any of them. However this focus can widen the awareness (how paradoxical it sounds) while the Dark Side distracts and let the emotions build judgements which can fuel the emotion further on the term "what's right or wrong".

So it really depends Smiley
Mace Windu is an excellent character in the book of Ep3 (written by Matthew Stover) showing how the two can contaminate and with some strong control be utilized to overcome certain situations one or the other way could not resolve alone. Also not a coincidence that it was Mace developing a saber style (Vapaad) around this very unique and hard approach.

Certainly the way of the Dark Side is smoother and easier - it is actually automatic, that's why it's easy. You have unconscious concepts supported and covered by emotions which are the automatic chemical resonses of your body to the mind. You just have to let it express itself repeatedly and there you go, power comes. However it's the very same thing limiting it to only a few narrow ways of use - from a dark jedi to become a sith it's a huge leap forward and requires the user to revaluate a lot of things. Which means getting out of the comfort zone and change. Only a few can do that Wink

If you are spouting rhetorical movie lines, you will be mistaken. Read any book that references Dark Side training regimens. (Shadow Hunter, Path of Destruction, Darth Plagueis) The Dark Side is not easy. Sacrificing one's beliefs in the heat of the moment for a tactical advantage? That's easy. Succumbing to the temptation of greater power? Easy too. Mastery of the Dark Side? Not so much. You are correct though, it is easier to rely upon emotion rather than logic in matters of instinct. And in times of crisis, fear is an exceptionally powerful motivator. Example: Young Galen Marek, when he disarmed Vader.

Vapaad, according to my sources, is merely the Sith name for Juyo. Juyo is the seventh form of lightsaber cambat. Although I'm not entirely clear on the particulars, Juyo utilizes controlled use of emotion to amplify ones powers in battle. Effectively it's justified use of the Dark Side, depending how you look at it. But its secrets are carefully governed as to who it is taught to use it since it represents the silken thin line that separates Light and Dark.

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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2016, 11:17:40 AM »

The Jedi Mind Trick is a power I have never understood why it isn't classed as Dark Side in the majority of cases--especially now that we have seen its ultimate expression onscreen in TFA.  It looks like coercion rather than convincing.  I still laugh at "I want to go home and rethink my life," but yeah, if I were in universe that would probably be the power that would scare me the most.
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"Anger is a tool.  Use it; do not let it use you."
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"I'm a little Renlet, short and 'stout'
Here is my saber, watch me scream and shout!"
       --Lyrics by Jev Moldara

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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2016, 11:21:56 AM »

It's interesting to compare the "magic" of the Force to the magic of other fictional universes.

For example, a certain emotional magic of Harry Potter's universe, conjuring a Patronus, requires intense focus on a *very* positive memory/emotion.

Would that work with the Force? It's a question I can't answer. But I can guess.

And my guess is, no, it wouldn't work. Because the Force can't be dominated by a happy memory.

I don't even think it would work on the Light side, because using the Light side is, to my understanding, making a request and stepping aside to allow the Force to act on that request.


In my view, the very use of the Force is a manipulation against nature. If you levitate something, you are defying the natural law of gravity. Mind tricks circumvent an individual's will. Healing staves off the result of death. It is becoming a more common ideal that the Force just is, and the motives of the user determine what shade it falls under.

For Light Side related matters, you might be better served by the sister-thread Jedi Academy. http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=28154.0

The Jedi Mind Trick is a power I have never understood why it isn't classed as Dark Side in the majority of cases--especially now that we have seen its ultimate expression onscreen in TFA.  It looks like coercion rather than convincing.  I still laugh at "I want to go home and rethink my life," but yeah, if I were in universe that would probably be the power that would scare me the most.


That is why it supposedly only works on the weak minded.
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2016, 11:23:36 AM »

In my view, the very use of the Force is a manipulation against nature. If you levitate something, you are defying the natural law of gravity. Mind tricks circumvent an individual's will. Healing staves off the result of death. It is becoming a more common ideal that the Force just is, and the motives of the user determine what shade it falls under.

For Light Side related matters, you might be better served by the sister-thread Jedi Academy. http://www.saberforum.com/index.php?topic=28154.0


I just spoke of the Force in the exact same way; it just is  Cheesy +1
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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2016, 11:26:50 AM »

I just spoke of the Force in the exact same way; it just is  Cheesy +1

Great minds I guess. Ditto.
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2016, 11:34:57 AM »


If you are spouting rhetorical movie lines, you will be mistaken. Read any book that references Dark Side training regimens. (Shadow Hunter, Path of Destruction, Darth Plagueis) The Dark Side is not easy. Sacrificing one's beliefs in the heat of the moment for a tactical advantage? That's easy. Succumbing to the temptation of greater power? Easy too. Mastery of the Dark Side? Not so much. You are correct though, it is easier to rely upon emotion rather than logic in matters of instinct. And in times of crisis, fear is an exceptionally powerful motivator. Example: Young Galen Marek, when he disarmed Vader.

Vapaad, according to my sources, is merely the Sith name for Juyo. Juyo is the seventh form of lightsaber cambat. Although I'm not entirely clear on the particulars, Juyo utilizes controlled use of emotion to amplify ones powers in battle. Effectively it's justified use of the Dark Side, depending how you look at it. But its secrets are carefully governed as to who it is taught to use it since it represents the silken thin line that separates Light and Dark.



Well, from the books I've read so far I found only the Darth Bane trilogy and now the Plagueis which stands out and shows some exciting intelligence behind the Dark Side. Others seemed to be one dimensional and they couldn't really elevate to a level beyond simple arrogancy to even remembering them so my memories are vague here and there Smiley

On the other hand the whole Lucas universe is a complete mess if we want to dig deeper than the surface. As it was mentioned before, the mind trick is pretty much one point where the concept is bleeding and force push is the other for jedis (however in the D20 RPG it was somewhat regulated in use and wouldn't cause any interference using it on non-living creatures like droids. But everywhere else it's being used with a great smile.)
All seem to go back to the good and bad opposition.
It's my very personal opinion but if the jedi order also has the concept in mind about good and bad and it's just somehow different to the others' approach, then they are not really legitim to "guard the galaxy" Smiley
In my theoretical jedi order there's no good and bad but things as they are. Guarding means intervention and needs a concept to back it up. The Dark Side is also just a label to another concept which is different and - how funny - the whole "light" and "dark" names are established by those who claim to be the light Smiley

So I agree to move away a bit from the core of the movie-line when it comes to research and contemplation. Certainly and interesting discussion. Can't wait for the jedi academy to be set up too Smiley
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