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Author Topic: Jedi Academy: Tython  (Read 44685 times)
Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« on: January 27, 2016, 09:45:34 AM »

Welcome to the Jedi Academy. This is a place to learn about all things Light Side (and maybe a few things that aren't so much).

Feel free to ask and answer questions as your knowledge base allows.

As previously stated, this is a thread for learning, for Jedi and Sith alike, who seek to know more about the Light Side. There will be NO FEUDING.

(Before anyone accuses me of piggy-backing off of Logos' idea, he was kind enough to ask me to head up this side of the discussion. Thank you, Logos.Smiley)


Here is some deeper information about Tython to start us off:

Tython was a planet in the Tython system of the Deep Core that played a pivotal role in the histories of the Je'daii Order and its successor, the Jedi Order.

Tython was orbited by two moons: Ashla and Bogan, satellites that inspired the Je'daii Order's philosophy of balance between the light and dark sides of the Force, and the Je'daii maintained sentry drones in orbits thirty thousand kilometers above Tython's surface. Tython's environment was remarkably sensitive to the Force; powerful disturbances in the Force, such the presence of an individual particularly strong in either the light or dark side of the Force, could cause immense Force storms and groundquakes that would ravage Tython's surface.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 10:17:19 AM by Kham-Ryn Kurios » Logged


/LIGHT SIDE POINTS PLEASE\
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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 10:51:56 AM »

I'm into this. I watched the original trilogy for the first time just two months ago, in preparation for TFA. Now I'm obsessed with learning as much as I can about this universe.



So, regarding the Light side, my first question is this: When a Jedi does something via the Force, are they *asking* the Force to perform the act, or commanding it?
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2016, 11:22:08 AM »

"The Living Force represented the energies of all living things, and those energies were fed into the Cosmic Force that bound the galaxy together and communicated to individuals through the midi-chlorians." (Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force)

This does not mean that the force itself is sentient or aware in any sense; The Force just is.

When the Jedi (and the Sith) call upon The Force, they are manipulating--or commanding--that energy.

Think of magnetism or static electricity, those energies are tangible enough that our bodies can sense it/feel it when we are near them; so much so, that static electricity can arc out and create a shock and electromagnetism can induce panic or deep fear. However, we sadly cannot manipulate these energies.



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/LIGHT SIDE POINTS PLEASE\
‎Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2016, 11:45:57 AM »

The Force just is.

Sweet.
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2016, 02:29:30 PM »

As mentioned in the topmost post, Tython was home to the Je'daii order. Let's expand a little more on who the Je'dai were:

"Focusing on maintaining a balance in the Force, a state at which Tython was itself hospitable, the Je'daii saw the Force as two aspects of a whole; the Ashla and the Bogan. They saw this duality in the Force represented in the night sky of Tython in the form of two natural satellites; one bathed in light, another shrouded in darkness. In keeping with their ideal balance, Je'daii who fell too far to either the light or darkness were exiled to one of the moons to meditate until they returned to balance."



"The Order's presence on Tython was spread between nine Temples, each of which was presided over by a Je'daii Temple Master. In order to gain mastery in the Order, all Je'daii were expected to travel to each of the Temples to hone different skills."


"There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force."

―The Je'daii Code

"The Je'daii Order's primarily philosophy was that of the Balance—because of Tython's intense reactions to imbalance in the Force, the Je'daii strived to maintain personal balance between the light and dark sides of the Force. This philosophy was also inspired by Tython's moons: bright Ashla represented the light side of the Force, and the dark moon Bogan represented the dark side. In Je'daii philosophy, they acknowledged the fact that there was always a light within darkness, and darkness within light, so that it was impossible for one to ever be truly free of either."

(Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order)
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2016, 02:40:49 PM »

Does it ever explain what happened when a Sith tomb was set up on Tython? I remember reading Darth Bane going to Tython to retrieve Darth So-n-so's holocron, but it was described as desolate. Would this have been caused by an overexposure to the Dark Side?
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2016, 02:45:00 PM »

Ah, see, I was under the impression that a Dark side user bent the Force to their will, whereas a Light side user made their will known to the Force and then allowed it to flow through them.



So, if both Jedi and Sith/Darkside users command the Force to do their bidding, are there any deeper differences between the two of them besides the embracing or rejection of emotion?
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2016, 03:08:07 PM »

Does it ever explain what happened when a Sith tomb was set up on Tython? I remember reading Darth Bane going to Tython to retrieve Darth So-n-so's holocron, but it was described as desolate. Would this have been caused by an overexposure to the Dark Side?


"Sometime after the Galactic War, Tython's surface was severely devastated in some catastrophe, and the planet became saturated with dark side energy. During the New Sith Wars between the Republic and various Sith factions, the Shi'ido Sith Lord Belia Darzu took control of Tython and built a large fortress on the planet. Darzu, who was skilled in the use of mechu-deru—the ability to transform the flesh of living beings into metal machines—had conducted experiments within the fortress, developing the ability to create technobeasts in the year 1250 BBY. Building an army of the technological horrors and recording her knowledge within her holocron, Darzu initiated the phase of the New Sith Wars known as the Sictis Wars."


So, It doesn't say what happened to make it that way, but yes, it does address that the planet is out balance. However, we could theorize that the cause of this calamity could've been the use of the "Thought Bomb" technique; which we know Bane wound up learning from Revan's Holocron. It could also be explained as some part of a yet to be revealed storyline introduced in "The Old Republic."


Ah, see, I was under the impression that a Dark side user bent the Force to their will, whereas a Light side user made their will known to the Force and then allowed it to flow through them.

So, if both Jedi and Sith/Darkside users command the Force to do their bidding, are there any deeper differences between the two of them besides the embracing or rejection of emotion?


Not that I can find, the intent of the user is what generally defines the light and dark aspects.

As evidenced by:

"A Jedi sufficiently strong in the Force can be trained to produce a facsimile, but not true Sith lightning."

Darth Plagueis

Jedi Master Plo Koon, Grandmaster Luke Skywalker and Jacen Solo have used "Electric Judgment"; as it was named by Plo Koon in the recordings of "The Great Holocron."

"It showed up as yellow or green energy instead of blue or white, but otherwise it was very similar in both appearance and usage to the Force power known as Force lightning. This power was uncommon and controversial among the Jedi because of its intrinsic association with anger and aggression." (Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Electric_Judgment)

It is clear that the use of this and many of the other more offensive techniques employed by the Sith are made stronger by the embracing of one's emotions; be they anger, rage or even sadness. It isn't that the Jedi can't use these techniques, it's that they choose not to, especially the Jedi Council. It would seem that on the outside they are asking other Jedi to reject these teachings when instead, they are merely suggesting that those not old enough to understand the slippery slop they tread to not play with fire.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 03:38:09 PM by Kham-Ryn Kurios » Logged


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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2016, 03:34:25 PM »

It is clear that the use of this and many of the other more offensive techniques employed by the Sith are made stronger by the embracing of one's emotions; be they anger, rage or even sadness.

It has also been characterized as a manifestation of one's hatred.
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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2016, 08:46:41 PM »

So, as a companion question in the Sith thread:  Why are jedi failures so often forgotten?  An example being the Battle of Ruusan, were a monument was build, but very little of the history of the battles was saved in the jedi archives.

I feel that the jedi tend to "hide" failures or signs of not being perfect.  They fail to learn from mistakes, and so they tend to repeat a few hundred years later, instead of examining what caused the failure in the first place and trying to correct or address the cause.

Note that this is meant as an observation, NOT trying to say the Sith are any better.  I'm trying to understand, historically over several thousand years, the jedi order mindset.
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2016, 02:37:00 AM »

So, as a companion question in the Sith thread:  Why are jedi failures so often forgotten?  An example being the Battle of Ruusan, were a monument was build, but very little of the history of the battles was saved in the jedi archives.

I feel that the jedi tend to "hide" failures or signs of not being perfect.  They fail to learn from mistakes, and so they tend to repeat a few hundred years later, instead of examining what caused the failure in the first place and trying to correct or address the cause.

Note that this is meant as an observation, NOT trying to say the Sith are any better.  I'm trying to understand, historically over several thousand years, the jedi order mindset.

That seems to be the case - apparently not just their mistakes but jedis altogether have been forgotten (again) in EP7 and also Han also said much earlier "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense. "
So in a huge galaxy with megatrillions of inhabitants we are talking about "more than ten thousand" jedis on it hayday, well, it's even easier to forget them altogehter when they have been exterminated. Even if it's just "almost" Smiley

And they are surely not perfect. Their religion-like ideology is not subject to change but pretty rigorous and traditional. It doesn't evolve much and when it does it's initiated by someone who is considered at least "strange" and "out of canon" in the Order: like Qui-Gon who managed to find a way to come back after death and tought it to whoever there was left available (Yoda, Obi-Wan). So as the overall ideology of the Jedi is a strict and non-flexible one, their mistakes remain unanswered. They never address their own issue but they are happy to address everyone else's issues backed up with the ideology that they are "plain right". There have been many jedis falling to the Dark Side, some returned but most of them lost for the Order for good - with no flexibility and capability of evolution it's a typical outcome.

The Sith Order was pretty much the same but in a more unorganized manner until Bane installed the rule of the two - since then the constant challenge between masters and apprentices guaranteed a high level of development and venturing into a lot of aspects of the force jedis were prohibited even to mention.
So as you say the jedis seem not to be capable of learning from their failures as much as the sith because their key element is to follow an ideology knowning that it's "the only true way" while the sith is up to a certain evolution which made it possible to defeat a whole galactic political system with jedis on its side by a handful of talented and flexible force users...
(An analogy for the mistakes can be again religion: how many times in human history when armies fought and one certainly lost have been asked: "Why did my God leave me?" instead of "Why I was so mistaken taking on this battle when the chances were pretty bad?" So in this paradigm it's never the person, it's always the Force Wink)

Meanwhile 99.9999% of the galaxy inhabitants does not even have a clue that Force exists Smiley
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 02:48:54 AM by medwyn » Logged


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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2016, 06:42:53 AM »

So, as a companion question in the Sith thread:  Why are jedi failures so often forgotten?  An example being the Battle of Ruusan, were a monument was build, but very little of the history of the battles was saved in the jedi archives.

I feel that the jedi tend to "hide" failures or signs of not being perfect.  They fail to learn from mistakes, and so they tend to repeat a few hundred years later, instead of examining what caused the failure in the first place and trying to correct or address the cause.

Note that this is meant as an observation, NOT trying to say the Sith are any better.  I'm trying to understand, historically over several thousand years, the jedi order mindset.

I'm curious as to which failures on Ruusan you refer to.
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Kham-Ryn Kurios
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2016, 07:55:58 AM »

So, as a companion question in the Sith thread:  Why are jedi failures so often forgotten?  An example being the Battle of Ruusan, were a monument was build, but very little of the history of the battles was saved in the jedi archives.

I feel that the jedi tend to "hide" failures or signs of not being perfect.  They fail to learn from mistakes, and so they tend to repeat a few hundred years later, instead of examining what caused the failure in the first place and trying to correct or address the cause.

Note that this is meant as an observation, NOT trying to say the Sith are any better.  I'm trying to understand, historically over several thousand years, the jedi order mindset.


History is written by the victors.

That's the short answer, this is the long answer:

Every time there is a major upheaval, not very much of that information survives. I imagine it is even harder to address and learn from your mistakes when you have no idea that mistakes were even made.

During the execution of Order 66, once again, all their information is lost; the assault on the Jedi temple resulted in the loss of The Great Holocron. The Great Holocron was the centerpiece of the Jedi Temple's library holdings.

Now, this may be a spoiler for those that haven't read any of the new canon Star Wars comics, but there recently was an issue that took place on Nar Shaddaa. Grakkus the Hutt was a collector of Jedi artifacts, he owned holocrons, statues, starfighters, he wore lightsabers on a chain as a necklace; that is until Vader showed up and destroyed everything.

To address The Battle of Ruusan:

"Ruusan was the site of seven battles between the Sith's Brotherhood of Darkness and the Jedi's Army of Light. During the last battle of Ruusan (1000 BBY) between the Jedi under Lord Hoth, and the Sith under Lord Skere Kaan, much of the planet's surface, including vegetation and several cities, were destroyed."

"After the battle had ended, a Jedi Knight named Johun Othone petitioned the Galactic Senate to construct a grand mausoleum containing the one-hundred fallen warriors called The Valley of the Jedi, located on the former location of Olmondo."

"Despite this, the expanding nebulae of the sector erased the hyperlanes connecting Ruusan[2] and the world was quickly forgotten, as the Galactic Republic turned inward."

(Sauce: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ruusan/Legends)

__________________

On the outside--with all the information that we can access about them in the EU--it's really easy to blame the Jedi for their own shortcomings and failures, but in reality they really aren't aware of them at all.

So it would seem as though they are in denial and being willfully ignorant of the past, they infact are constantly having their past destroyed. The Sith, every time, try their damndest to erase any and all information--no matter how small--that could possibly allude to the Jedi even having existed; this is why the Jedi are often thought of as myth and legend by the galaxy at large.

Their mindset is to continue on, despite the overwhelming odds against them and a lack of heritage to learn from. Not unlike The Incans, the Aztecs, even Native Americans and other early peoples whose history has been all but forgotten by time. (Not to get political, but the destruction of artifacts and ruins is happening to this day by Isis; it is cultural genocide.)

(I hope I was able answer your question.  Smiley +1)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 08:47:47 AM by Kham-Ryn Kurios » Logged


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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2016, 08:52:35 AM »

"After the battle had ended, a Jedi Knight named Johun Othone petitioned the Galactic Senate to construct a grand mausoleum containing the one-hundred fallen warriors called The Valley of the Jedi, located on the former location of Olmondo."

It may also be note worthy that the hundred Jedi spoken of, died on a suicide mission to sew the deception that Kaan's use of the Thought Bomb would "ensure his victory".

What Kaan didn't realize is that the bomb destroyed all Force sensitives within the blast and trapped their spirits in a void of agony. The true effect of the bomb was contained by the cave that Kaan chose to make his last stand in. Had it been performed on the open surface, it would have taken every Force sensitive on Ruusan, even those in low orbit.
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« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2016, 05:59:29 PM »

History is being rewritten...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Seventh_Battle_of_Ruusan

Darth Logos has one version, from his reading of the Darth Bane trilogy, while I was going from the version contained in Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith.  That version states that the jedi built a monument to their fallen, then intentionally tried to forget about the whole thing, especially the part where they conscripted children and sent them barely trained into battle.  Of course, without that, Bane would never have found Rain...
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You only live once. Wrong.
You only die once.  You live every moment of your life.
The question is, are you alive, and living your life? Or just here, and watching your life go by?
------------------------------------------------------------------
I am the bone of my sword
 Steel is my body and fire is my blood
 I have created over a thousand blades
 Unknown to death
 Nor known to life
 Have withstood pain to create many weapons
 Yet those hands will never hold anything
 So, as I pray, Unlimited Blade Works.

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