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Author Topic: Jedi Academy: Tython  (Read 103332 times)
Darth Calon
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« Reply #150 on: April 11, 2017, 06:24:08 PM »

Is a Sith Lord ever truly "unarmed"? ô¿o

No.
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« Reply #151 on: April 11, 2017, 06:38:00 PM »

No.
Good boy. But it was a rhetorical question. Tongue
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Taegin Roan
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« Reply #152 on: April 11, 2017, 07:45:32 PM »

But then comes the question of is anyone ever unarmed? (And don't say Vader when Obi-Wan cut off his arms and legs, because he still had one mechanical arm.)
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« Reply #153 on: April 11, 2017, 07:50:29 PM »

But then comes the question of is anyone ever unarmed? (And don't say Vader when Obi-Wan cut off his arms and legs, because he still had one mechanical arm.)
Yes. A Jedi can be disarmed by taking their weapon away. Their ideology disallows them a means of attack, but that is not to say they are defenseless.
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Taegin Roan
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« Reply #154 on: April 11, 2017, 07:53:18 PM »

Just because someone defends, does not mean they are unarmed.
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Landen Se-Sentien
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« Reply #155 on: April 11, 2017, 07:55:43 PM »

And of course this would also bring out the inevitable and previously discussed argument of, "See? He used the Force for attack! That's not what a Jedi is supposed to do!"

And, is a Sith ever unarmed? In that case, yes. It's no different than when Mace had Palpatine cowering and begging. Remember what Anakin said? "It's not the Jedi way." Spare me the, "Well, he did Force lightning him, so he wasn't unarmed." It's the principal of possessing a weapon other than the Force. He's no longer a combatant but a fallen/fleeing/beaten foe.

So he doesn't use the pillar to do him in, because he follows the code, and he gets raked over the coals. If he does use the pillar, he gets raked over the coals for not following the code, and he is labeled a hypocrite. Pick one so there can be a sound discussion.
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« Reply #156 on: April 11, 2017, 08:30:20 PM »

Just because someone defends, does not mean they are unarmed.
By that logic, a bullet proof vest is a weapon.

And of course this would also bring out the inevitable and previously discussed argument of, "See? He used the Force for attack! That's not what a Jedi is supposed to do!"
It's been a while, but I believe my original thoughts were on why he didn't use the pillar to disable the ship, not attack Dooku. There's a difference. And as made evident in TCW, the Jedi don't consider disabling droids/machinery by any means necessary as "attacking". I reference Ep 1:1 Ambush (I think) in which Yoda picks up a super droid and uses its blaster to destroy its compatriots.

Quote
And, is a Sith ever unarmed? In that case, yes. It's no different than when Mace had Palpatine cowering and begging. Remember what Anakin said? "It's not the Jedi way." Spare me the, "Well, he did Force lightning him, so he wasn't unarmed." It's the principal of possessing a weapon other than the Force. He's no longer a combatant but a fallen/fleeing/beaten foe.
I can't remember the full quote Yoda says at the end of ATC, but basically the Sith are fond of deception tactics. I fully believe that Sidious knew Anakin was coming and he put on a show to both a) work Mace into a false sense of victory, and b) to cement Anakin's suspicions that the Jedi had turned against the Republic. His smile when, he resumed his attack, was proof that he was far from ever surrendering. (Thinking about all this really makes it apparent that it's time to marathon all these again. Wink)


^^^ He is enjoying this.


Quote
So he doesn't use the pillar to do him in, because he follows the code, and he gets raked over the coals. If he does use the pillar, he gets raked over the coals for not following the code, and he is labeled a hypocrite. Pick one so there can be a sound discussion.
Of all the crap I give to the Jedi, I think I respect Yoda the most in the end. He is the one Jedi that comes closest to following the code to the letter.

I get that this is not history; merely a story. And like most stories there are always plot points that could have been ironed out better or had to be sacrificed in order for the narrative to continue.
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Landen Se-Sentien
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« Reply #157 on: April 11, 2017, 09:57:46 PM »

I'll agree with you on the probability that Palpatine knee Anakin was coming. However, based on the dialogue between Anakin and mace, he was viewed by then to be unarmed and beaten. He should've been allowed to live.

I'll also agree that the Jedi didn't care about destroying droids, but they're machines. As much as I love R2 and K-2, they are still just machines. Jedi value lives. To your specific example, the droids Yoda was destroying were still very much combatants. As for ships, again, I think we have to draw a distinction between an attacking ship and a fleeing ship. I suppose a decent argument could be made that he could be been within the code and still used the pillar to disable the ship.

Aside from fatigue and the code, another reason he didn't do it could be perspective. I propose that he was either unaware of Dooku's movements, or he was acutely aware and didn't care.

I've been in plenty of real and tournament fights. I've also had to save someone from dying. In my fights, it's amazing how quickly I get tunnel vision. I wouldn't hear the crowd. I wouldn't be aware of where the referee was, not would I respond to spectators in real fights. When my stepdad was panicking and on the verge of drowning on a scuba dive, I didn't care about the fish or the other divers. I cared about getting him to the surface and getting his equipment squared away. Perhaps Yoda got tunnel vision, too.

Or, because of how many Jedi had just been lost, maybe he knew that the Order was in serious jeopardy and was more focused on regrouping and surviving and less focused on getting Dooku. Let him escape, and then use all of their resources to find him and get him.

Personally, I think it was a mix. He was indeed tired, he felt an obligation to honor the code (even in the shades of grey), and he felt that saving 2 Jedi was more important than killing 1 Sith.
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Darth Calon
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« Reply #158 on: April 12, 2017, 02:06:32 PM »

and he felt that saving 2 Jedi was more important than killing 1 Sith.

I'm not buying this. 1 Sith would've been half of them. There's a lot more Jedi than that. I would think Yoda would have went for Dooku with that logic. Unless he believed Anakin was the Chosen One (it's been a while since I've seen them).

And of course, Anakin was needed to become Vader, so he couldn't die. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #159 on: April 12, 2017, 02:29:35 PM »

All good points.

I'll agree with you on the probability that Palpatine knew Anakin was coming. However, based on the dialogue between Anakin and Mace, he was viewed by then to be unarmed and beaten. He should've been allowed to live.
I still think he was playing Anakin like a cheap fiddle. He knew that if Anakin showed up, it was for one reason alone: to guarantee his survival so that he could him (Anakin) how to stop Padme form dying. Mace, on the other hand, knew, "disarmed" and defeated or not, this motha f@$#@ was "too dangerous to be left alive." Code be damned. And he was right. He iced 3...count 'em 3 masters in a matter of seconds. Granted they were clustered, but still.

Quote
I'll also agree that the Jedi didn't care about destroying droids, but they're machines. As much as I love R2 and K-2, they are still just machines. Jedi value lives. To your specific example, the droids Yoda was destroying were still very much combatants. As for ships, again, I think we have to draw a distinction between an attacking ship and a fleeing ship. I suppose a decent argument could be made that he could have been within the code and still used the pillar to disable the ship.
I may be Sith, but I'm all about droid rights. And ships are not droids. Plus, the ship was being used by a very powerful and high ranking enemy.
Quote
Aside from fatigue and the code, another reason he didn't do it could be perspective. I propose that he was either unaware of Dooku's movements, or he was acutely aware and didn't care.

I've been in plenty of real and tournament fights. I've also had to save someone from dying. In my fights, it's amazing how quickly I get tunnel vision. I wouldn't hear the crowd. I wouldn't be aware of where the referee was, not would I respond to spectators in real fights. When my stepdad was panicking and on the verge of drowning on a scuba dive, I didn't care about the fish or the other divers. I cared about getting him to the surface and getting his equipment squared away. Perhaps Yoda got tunnel vision, too.

Or, because of how many Jedi had just been lost, maybe he knew that the Order was in serious jeopardy and was more focused on regrouping and surviving and less focused on getting Dooku. Let him escape, and then use all of their resources to find him and get him.

Personally, I think it was a mix. He was indeed tired, he felt an obligation to honor the code (even in the shades of grey), and he felt that saving 2 Jedi was more important than killing 1 Sith.
Dooku's capture would have spared countless lives. And countless is a lot more than 2. But as I've also said, had Yoda succeeded, there wouldn't have been as much of a story. Tongue But even with the setback, I highly doubt the Sith plan would have been jeopardized that much. "One door closes..." and all that.

As for his focus, I think you're comparing apples and cumquats. You are a human of less than 40 years of age (I think...). He is a Force sensitive alien approaching 900 years of age, with at least 700 years of experience under his belt. One would think he knows exactly what's he's doing even in his sleep. (Maybe he was bored and thought a galactic civil war would be fun. Tongue)

I'm not buying this. 1 Sith would've been half of them. There's a lot more Jedi than that. I would think Yoda would have went for Dooku with that logic. Unless he believed Anakin was the Chosen One (it's been a while since I've seen them).

And of course, Anakin was needed to become Vader, so he couldn't die. Roll Eyes
Oohh. Arguing proportions. And I like that you brought up "the prophecy". Of all that I felt was disastrously wrong with TCW, one thing I particularly loved was at the end, the Force pretty much told Yoda that allowing Anakin to live would pretty much ensure the destruction of the Jedi.
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Bghl
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« Reply #160 on: December 21, 2017, 12:02:33 AM »

So, as a companion question in the Sith thread:  Why are jedi failures so often forgotten?  An example being the Battle of Ruusan, were a monument was build, but very little of the history of the battles was saved in the jedi archives.

I feel that the jedi tend to "hide" failures or signs of not being perfect.  They fail to learn from mistakes, and so they tend to repeat a few hundred years later, instead of examining what caused the failure in the first place and trying to correct or address the cause.

Note that this is meant as an observation, NOT trying to say the Sith are any better.  I'm trying to understand, historically over several thousand years, the jedi order mindset.
Yes, apparently people just forgot about that time the Jedi commit genocide. The event was known as the Sith holocaust. Before the Sith Order, the Sith were a species. Back when Proto-Sabers were used, the closest thing to a modern Sith was a "dark jedi". After a battle, the dark jedi were banished to a remote planet, inhabited by the Sith. They were similar to humans, but they were sensitive to the dark side of the force (they just looked like red humans). The dark jedi taught the Sith how to use the force. Many years later, the Sith had built an empire, and their next target was the republic. It was a close battle, but the Jedi won. How did they resolve the situation? Why of course, they slaughtered every single one of them! The Jedi did not kill all of them (only 99% xD) and the sith came back many years later, but they  were defeated again.
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« Reply #161 on: December 21, 2017, 06:11:08 PM »

Yes, apparently people just forgot about that time the Jedi commit genocide. The event was known as the Sith holocaust. Before the Sith Order, the Sith were a species. Back when Proto-Sabers were used, the closest thing to a modern Sith was a "dark jedi". After a battle, the dark jedi were banished to a remote planet, inhabited by the Sith. They were similar to humans, but they were sensitive to the dark side of the force (they just looked like red humans). The dark jedi taught the Sith how to use the force. Many years later, the Sith had built an empire, and their next target was the republic. It was a close battle, but the Jedi won. How did they resolve the situation? Why of course, they slaughtered every single one of them! The Jedi did not kill all of them (only 99% xD) and the sith came back many years later, but they  were defeated again.
That's why the full title is "Dark Lord of the Sith". The banished dark Jedi ruled over them as Lords. The Sith pure-bloods already had an understanding of the power of the dark side, regardless of being able to use like their new Dark Lords. The organization then evolved to incorporate Sith and non into the fold. I would refer to articles on Wookieepedia for more details, but it's full of the nonsense that drives the current BS canon.
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Bghl
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« Reply #162 on: December 24, 2017, 12:39:42 AM »

That's why the full title is "Dark Lord of the Sith". The banished dark Jedi ruled over them as Lords. The Sith pure-bloods already had an understanding of the power of the dark side, regardless of being able to use like their new Dark Lords. The organization then evolved to incorporate Sith and non into the fold. I would refer to articles on Wookieepedia for more details, but it's full of the nonsense that drives the current BS canon.
yep
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KennayGW
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« Reply #163 on: May 06, 2018, 08:26:41 PM »

lightsyyyyde....yuuyyuuyyh
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Darth Tepes
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« Reply #164 on: May 06, 2018, 11:58:28 PM »

That's why the full title is "Dark Lord of the Sith". The banished dark Jedi ruled over them as Lords. The Sith pure-bloods already had an understanding of the power of the dark side, regardless of being able to use like their new Dark Lords. The organization then evolved to incorporate Sith and non into the fold. I would refer to articles on Wookieepedia for more details, but it's full of the nonsense that drives the current BS canon.

Wookiepedia has tabs for both Canon (Lucasfilm under Disney) and Legends (Old EU)
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