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Author Topic: Training.  (Read 3744 times)
Rapine
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« on: February 25, 2016, 11:04:00 AM »

I've only just recently got my first lightsaber.  It's freaking awesome!

I quickly realized though, that there's a whole lot more than just waving one around.

In order to not look like a complete dufus, a basic stance, and some basic dodges, parries, and thrusts are required.

I did some research, and found out that I'm best suited for Makashi form. 

Surgery a number of years ago, left me partially paralysed on my right side.  My dominant side...obviously.

I'll wield the saber using my left hand.  To build strength and endurance, I got this small 2lb weight, and will go through the moon-phase motions with it:

No comments on the colour please...lol...it's the specific weight that's important.   Cheesy

After about 5mins swinging the lightsaber around, my elbow gets sore.  I've chosen a dumbbell that weighs slightly more than the saber, so that when I do wield it, it will feel like nothing's there.

I desire to be awesome, and unstoppable, and to do my saber justice.
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Morgoth136
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 09:56:39 AM »

best of luck! i heard that training with a small weight is a good way to get your arms in shape for swords, remember to stretch and keep at it!
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvTovNQK2fuAfSE6J46K0rg

Rapine
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2016, 10:12:02 AM »

best of luck! i heard that training with a small weight is a good way to get your arms in shape for swords, remember to stretch and keep at it!
Thank you for the encouragement.  Smiley -1
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Dobber
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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2016, 07:28:21 PM »

First, a disclaimer: I am in no way shape or form a master of anything besides running my mouth!

What I don't need to be a master to say is that it may be wise to consult a medical professional before you get too far down the rabbit hole here. That being said, if the doc clears you, there would be no reason that fighting one handed would be an issue.

Though I have no good reasons for it, I enjoy single handed sabering a little more than two handed, so I may be able to help a little.

A word on the "canonical" "seven forms": they are a narrative device for books and such. don't put too much stock into them. its fun and stuff, but there you are.

second question: I don't mean to be embarrassing, but how is your right leg? I ask because one handed vs two handed isn't really a huge issue, but footwork is always fundamental.

The first place to check out is obviously TLPA, they are the big dogs in this neck of the woods. I am kind of a student of them, I try to get to classes but its a bit of a drive for me. A lot of their stuff is two handed, but I see no reason that it could be not done one handed. I'll ask Darth N about this. In this system, the "forms" are progressions, so even if you envision yourself as a "makashi" practitioner, start at shii cho and work your way out from there. Here is a link to their channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCN3IsywwpbvOMkkCD2TFMAA

The next one up for consideration is Bendu Lightsaber Combat. his Makashi playlist  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Bg44jJQlDzO8yXNaUf8y4fcSWPMtGv4 is all one handed stuff. there is a little additional material in the "knights level" playlist. this is really good stuff for the single handed swordsman. definitely check it out.

Next up in the video queue are these guys: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgRb6yZYwVwsOEb5qZy4ZTp5_jbNUVP6k this is based on historical swordsmanship, but the playlist is good and the basics are the same. at the end of the day we don't REALLY have laser swords. this is a great intro playlist. These guys have been into HEMA since the 90's and know their stuff.

Then there is the venerable Matt Easton, also a HEMAer since the 90's. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMUtS78ZxryOMRve8RkM0vcrIKPH3hGvW  this is slightly less organized than the others, but anything that says "one handed" or "military saber" would be of use. also, bringing me to my next point, he has some exercises in there to build up arm and wrist strength, the latter being super important for single handed swordsmanship. these videos are super great definitely take the time to go through and watch all the relevant ones. Also, be sure to watch the footwork video.

the other point that I was going to make that I kind of touched on is that, while weight training will definitely help, the balance of your sword is different, so do Mr. Easton's exercises, you will get used to having a sword in the hand that way, and still build up wrist strength.  Some light jogging might be beneficial as well if you are cleared by the doc for that.

at the end of the day, one handed vs two handed isn't a huge deal, IMHO. it just changes a few considerations. Some might argue its a little more athletic. I'm sure there are also a million eastern martial arts with one handed techniques, but I'm ignorant to them.

If you are interested, I have about a zillion PDF's of the original teaching material for this type of stuff. They are all free public domain type stuff, but if you want them give me a PM, its easier than re hunting them down and giving a zillion links. I have Rapier, Sabre, some arming sword, and some smallsword/foil (for point work/ thrusting) Also, though smallsword/foil isn't everyone's cup of tea, the military saber stuff was usually taught after a foundation of foil fencing, so some of the basics and point work is there instead of the actual saber manuals.

any other questions feel free to ask
~Joe

OK Masters, feel free to rip apart anything I said here! Grin Cool
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Dobber
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« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2016, 07:30:20 PM »

OH PS, I'm a lefty who fences right handed more often than not, so the non dominant thing should not be a big deal! You will be fine. No one is unstoppably, but hard training pays off!  Wink
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Rapine
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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2016, 07:13:08 PM »

Thank you for the valuable advice. 

I do realize that Makashi - and other such forms are mainly theory.

I can walk around, and look mostly normal to the undiscerning eye, but my right leg does lag slightly, and the response-time, and dexterity of my former awesome right-hand have been greatly reduced.

I'm certainly not looking to make a career out of full-contact saber fighting, or LARPing, but want to look great, and be at least able to hold my own if ever an adversary does cross my path.  Even then I definiately limit any saber clashing to sparring, or stage weight, and perhaps even reduce the speed of the combat to 3/4, or even half.

There's a fencing school very close to here that I'm looking into, and a kendo school even closer.

Truth be told though, I mainly into completely selling the part, as I know that I'm limited physically, and cannot keep up with "normal" humans.
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Rapine
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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2016, 08:09:50 PM »

Let me put this another way...

I am slower that the average person, but still quite capable of many things.

Unfortunately running, jumping, driving, swallowing normally, or swinging a lightsaber with my right hand, and hoping for any type of accuracy is not possible.

My nervous system and muscles are no longer in a normal configuration, so my approach to saber combat cannot be othodox either.

I'm going to try though dammit.  I'll do my very best.

I got the weight to strengthen my wrist and elbow, and will study, or even attend classes in dueling, but I'd be fooling myself if I ever thought I could master any technique.

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"The thing that always drives me hazy, is wondering whether it's them or me who's crazy." ~ A. Einstein

Dauntless Seven
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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2016, 08:10:21 PM »

Hi.  I would suggest that to start your strengthening and endurance that you use a slightly lighter weight to avoid unnecessary strain and injury.  2 lbs doesn't seem like much but it will be noticeable as you are doing  less familiar movements.  Practice using more controlled repetitions that include proper alignment and technique.  Once you have that implanted into your memory and it becomes more automatic, then up the weight.  Be like Bruce Lee and practice, practice and then show off your skills.  Smiley
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Rapine
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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2016, 08:19:48 PM »

Hi.  I would suggest that to start your strengthening and endurance that you use a slightly lighter weight to avoid unnecessary strain and injury.  2 lbs doesn't seem like much but it will be noticeable as you are doing  less familiar movements.  Practice using more controlled repetitions that include proper alignment and technique.  Once you have that implanted into your memory and it becomes more automatic, then up the weight.  Be like Bruce Lee and practice, practice and then show off your skills.  Smiley

Are there ones that weigh less?  lol

I can handle that though.  My girlfriend has a 5lb one that I certainly will not be trying anytime soon, but I can do 2lbs indefinitely.

Thank you though.  points to both of you for helping.  Smiley
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Dobber
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2016, 10:47:37 PM »

Truth be told though, I mainly into completely selling the part, as I know that I'm limited physically, and cannot keep up with "normal" humans.
What the heck is normal anyways?
1. I am slower that the average person, but still quite capable of many things.

2. but I'd be fooling myself if I ever thought I could master any technique.
(engage big brother motivation mode)
Point 2: Knock that off, dangit! The only thing holding you back is this attitude, right there. Technique is just that, and technique trumps strength. No reason you can't do it. anyone can. If you have to be a lefty when you fence, so be it.
Point 1: you don't have to be fast. You can be quick. there is a difference. Perhaps it will take a more "scientific" approach for you in light of non olympic levels of athleticism. I'm right there with you. And I don't even have a good reason, I'm just fat and I smoke a pack a day. So thats all my fault. George Silver explains this rather well, I may be misquoting right now but it goes something like this: there are three "times" in which bodies move when sword fighting, time of the hand, time of the body, and time of the foot. Time of the hand is the fastest. If I do an action with my whole body and step into it, I am using time of the foot. if you perform a simple parry with just your hand, you are using time of the hand. Time of the hand is (almost) always faster. So, you would be moving quicker than me, and your action would succeed. no athleticism needed Wink
My suggestion to you is fence lefty. If your reaction time on your right side is down a bit, and you fence lefty, it won't matter as much. in most of the systems I linked to, the dominant side leads and the other follows. Sword hand aside, the lead leg is the one that needs the reaction time to slip back and in the lunge the back one is the propulsion.

just do some basic footwork and a little blade work, see where it goes. there is no reason that you can't be an excellent fencer!
God Bless,
Joe
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Rapine
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2016, 11:40:11 PM »

Hi.  I would suggest that to start your strengthening and endurance that you use a slightly lighter weight to avoid unnecessary strain and injury.  2 lbs doesn't seem like much but it will be noticeable as you are doing  less familiar movements.  Practice using more controlled repetitions that include proper alignment and technique.  Once you have that implanted into your memory and it becomes more automatic, then up the weight.  Be like Bruce Lee and practice, practice and then show off your skills.  Smiley

I just re-read this post.  Sorry, yes I do practice the motions sans weight as well.  I only add weight periodically.
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Rapine
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Always scanning the horizon...


« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2016, 11:42:02 PM »

What the heck is normal anyways? (engage big brother motivation mode)
Point 2: Knock that off, dangit! The only thing holding you back is this attitude, right there. Technique is just that, and technique trumps strength. No reason you can't do it. anyone can. If you have to be a lefty when you fence, so be it.
Point 1: you don't have to be fast. You can be quick. there is a difference. Perhaps it will take a more "scientific" approach for you in light of non olympic levels of athleticism. I'm right there with you. And I don't even have a good reason, I'm just fat and I smoke a pack a day. So thats all my fault. George Silver explains this rather well, I may be misquoting right now but it goes something like this: there are three "times" in which bodies move when sword fighting, time of the hand, time of the body, and time of the foot. Time of the hand is the fastest. If I do an action with my whole body and step into it, I am using time of the foot. if you perform a simple parry with just your hand, you are using time of the hand. Time of the hand is (almost) always faster. So, you would be moving quicker than me, and your action would succeed. no athleticism needed Wink
My suggestion to you is fence lefty. If your reaction time on your right side is down a bit, and you fence lefty, it won't matter as much. in most of the systems I linked to, the dominant side leads and the other follows. Sword hand aside, the lead leg is the one that needs the reaction time to slip back and in the lunge the back one is the propulsion.

just do some basic footwork and a little blade work, see where it goes. there is no reason that you can't be an excellent fencer!
God Bless,
Joe

Fencing, and perhaps something for a bit more power on the attack.  The footwork will be the real test.

Thanks Joe.
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Kliever
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« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 12:48:51 AM »

Don't underestimate yourself friend Smiley Try training with with both sides, try out some acupuncture or tuina, or even some qi gong. I've seen an old woman go from needing a walker to skipping rope with that sort of thing. She had a similar mindset like you
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Rapine
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« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 01:19:13 AM »

Don't underestimate yourself friend Smiley Try training with with both sides, try out some acupuncture or tuina, or even some qi gong. I've seen an old woman go from needing a walker to skipping rope with that sort of thing. She had a similar mindset like you
Well, this is permanent neurological damage.  I'm five years post-surgery.

No physical means will help.  But desire.  Desire can do wonders.
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Dobber
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« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 07:07:02 PM »

Lord Rapine, this is your homework for today:    Roll Eyes Tongue  (side note, there are a million variations on this theme. this is just one)
Get your lightsaber and: pick it up in your left hand and hold it like you would a hammer. the thumb and first finger should be doing most of the holding, and the pinky most of the controlling. middle and third fingers pretty much relaxed. This is called the hammer grip. it is the strongest but least nimble of the one handed grips. Try to make sure all your knuckles are in a line. Wherever the knuckles point is there are are strongest. The tighter you hold it the less nimble you will be due to being tense, your hand should only tense up at the moment of impact.

Now, stand up. stand up straighter. stomach in, chest out. now relax. bring your heels together and both feet are pointing straight ahead. turn your head to the left so that you are looking over your shoulder. turn your left foot and leg to the left to that your toes are pointing in the direction you are looking (henceforth "forward"). your feet should be making an "L" make sure that your feet and knees are both pointing the same way. now, move your left foot out (to your left, the direction you are looking) about a distance twice that of the length of your foot. a little bit less or more doesn't matter all too much. Now lower your knees a little bit, as if you were going to push something from this position. basically to the point that you feel stable. your weight should be evenly distributed between feet and more on the balls of your feel than the heels. This is one of the basic body positions for what is called an "enguarde" (on guard) stance. the idea is to profile your body to present the smallest target you can.

The hand position has even more variations, but for now we will keep it very simple. saber is vertical, in the middle of your body, your elbow is about one fist width from your body and the forearm goes straight out horizontally. This is called a medium guard, as the saber is neither to the left or the right. I tend to refer to it as a "high medium" to differentiate it from the other medium guard given by Hutton. To form this other medium guard, tilt your wrist down until the tip of your saber blade is at throat or eye level. you can practice this in front of a mirror pointing at yourself. I tend to prefer throat level. your off hand can be tucked behind your back, placed on the hip (my favorite) or anything else that gets it out of the way.

You are now in a very basic fighting stance. from now on I will refer to it as an engaging guard. it is usually classified by the hand position, so this would be a medium engaging guard.  but how do we move?

From your evenly weighted stance, raise your left foot as little as you can to clear the ground. move it forward about the length of your foot and return it to the earth. Now bring your right foot up a distance as equal to the distance your left foot moved as you can. you should find yourself in the exact same stance, one foot length forward. this is called an advance

to move backwards, or retreat you do the exact same thing but backwards, starting with the right foot going backwards and then the left.

do each of these a few times.

Lesson 2: from your engaging guard, lean forward and backwards from the waist without moving the legs. If you need to move the sword to accomplish this, go ahead. do this for a little bit. Now, move your body forward and backward by shifting your weight between legs and bending/extending your knees. do this for a while. Now attempt to combine the two movements. The purpose of these movements is to quickly make small adjustments to your distance.

Lesson 3: If you feel like you can do it, we will now attempt a lunge. a lunge covers the distance of 2 advances with one quick movement. put the sword down for the first couple. From your engaging guard, mark the spot that the back of your rear foot is at with something. now take 2 advances and mark the spot that the tip of your front foot ended up at. now, return to your engaging guard with your back foot at the spot marked for it. advance your left foot as in an advance, but now take it to the point that you marked. You need to be careful of a few things here: first, that your toes and knee point in the same direction. second, that your knee does not go in front of your foot. I prefer a straight up and down lower leg. third, do not let the rear foot roll or come off the ground. The foot should be flat on the ground, leg extended out and bent at the ankle to facilitate the movement. the movement is propelled by the back leg, but your weight ends up on your front leg, this is why you need to be careful. do this a few times, and then practice getting back up to your engaging guard quickly.

Lesson 4: we will now return to simple advances and retreats. From your engaging guard, I want you to do a couple of the ones you practiced before, then I want you to reverse the order of foot movement for the action. so move the back foot up to the position of the front then move the front out for an advance, so on so forth. I don't remember what these are called, but they can sometimes fool your opponent for a half of split second and can sometimes be a little faster than the conventional advance. The downside is that for a split second your feet are together, hence you are unstable. I don't use these too often, honestly.

And finally Lesson 5: From your engaging guard, move your back foot up to in front of your lead foot, keeping it turned 90 degrees outward. your legs should be crossed. then advance the other foot, returning to your engaging guard. this is called a passing step. you may also pass backwards by reversing the foot order and going backwards.

BUT WAIT! what bout turning or going sideways?!? all in good time...
HEY! I didn't get to play with my lightsaber!!!  ugh fine...

Lesson 6: from your medium engaging guard, extend your arm straight forward at shoulder level as far as you can, the blade should end up as an extension of your arm, straight out. This is called a straight thrust in medium and is usually combined with a lunge to make a simple attack. Practice this with all the different forms of movement here, but always remember to lead with your sword, doing the hand and arm motions before the body motions, and reversing that as you withdraw. your sword should be the first and last thing you move in this movement cycle. Remember to, at the point of impact, grip the saber tighter, then go back to a normal grip as you withdraw. this is easier with some other ways of holding the sword, but all in good time.

Lesson 7: the direct cut or push cut is don't my extending the arm, and swinging the sword with just the wrist directly to the target, tightening those loose bottom fingers just before the moment of impact to add some snap. This isn't a great attack, and is what is used most of the time in sport fencing. it is very situational. For now, I just want you to do it straight out, imagining a forehead blow, and turning the wrist 90 degrees left or right to come in from the left or right, imagining hitting the cheeks/jaw or hand/fingers. there is more but we will get to that later. remember to lead with your sword! do this with with all the forms of movement above.

Bonus: since you now know these simple attacks, you can now do a stop cut or stop thrust with the latter being the more deadly. from your engaging guard, quickly withdraw your lead leg all the way back to the heels touching position, performing a straight thrust as you do so.


Do your homework and report back on how it went and how it felt!

God Bless,
~Joe
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