The Snark Side of the Force

[Master Uilos]

There's no intent to imply that defense isn't a priority in the other forms, or in martial arts at all. However, Soresu is the extreme end of that and I think it acts as a corner stone in helping to identify and differentiate the other forms from each other. So if the focus on defense feels heavy handed in this one, it has more to do with that.

Soresu is the master class on defense. How to defend other weapons, styles, body types, terrains. The goal of this form would be to know how to assess the best ways to 1) Defend themselves from attack and 2) Make the attacker deplete their resources.

While countering is essentially how a soresu user would function, I made a deliberate decision to not emphasize it. Because actively countering is the core principle of Form V, which was developed in response to the inherent passivity of the style.

That being said. Yes, a particularly trollish or sadistic soresu user could provoke and goad their opponents to attack and overextend. I can imagine the Jedi just holding their ground until they either got out of the conflict or the attacker made their own opening, and I can see a Sith effectively playing with their food for all intents and purposes.

Again, Soresus extremist take on passivity is one of the most hard to swallow parts on translating the Forms. The key thing to realize that it's not just the basics of defense, it's creating a toolbox of defense.

[wandering-seeker]

Your blog postings are really interesting and helpful! As a Juyo user myself, I can't wait to see what you have to say about the Form of the Vornskyr!

[Master Althalus]

I'm not sure where everyone gets these misconceptions of sport combat methods - defense is a HUGE aspect in sport fencing at the very least.  People seem to think "right of way" applies to all weapons, and somehow allows both combatants to attack with reckless abandon.  It's there to train good combat habits, like defending an attack in progress or using good form in the attack.

To give an idea of defensive methods in fencing alone, you have basic parries, counterattacks, dodging, distance parries, and point in line.  That's not counting the uses of defensive techniques in offensive ways, like second intention.  All these things could be used by a fencer in a manner consistent with Soresu, to feel an opponent out and see what his or her tendencies are.

Just figured I'd set that straight.  I'm not trying to point the finger at you specifically, but you reminded me of misconceptions I've seen all over.  I did make a video recently for TPLA to try and address those, so I should probably post it on this forum.

All these things are there in olympic fencing - but how many fencers do actually use them in competition? I have some long-time olympic fencers in my club, I've fenced epée and sabre against them and others, and what it comes down to is: you fight the way you train. No misconception.
I've fought some classical fencers who could perform all those feats you named, because they were trained to avoid being hit. Those competing in olympic fencing are trained to hit first - and that's how they fight. Most of them (and I know some fencing masters that share this view) can't even form a proper parry anymore, because the parry doesn't serve to defend - it's just there to get the right of way.

Why do olympic fencers cling to the notion that they are still practicing a martial art? It's a sport, no more, no less. You gotta train hard to become good at it - but you will not learn to actually fight a duel with real weapons anymore. Those days are long gone. But that does not make it less credible as a sport.

Soresu is the master class on defense.

Just to cite an old fencing master (Marco Docciolini): "Who thinks that one can defend oneself without attacking, errs greatly."
Form III therefore has to teach a stalwart defence, but what is this good for, when the opponent doesn't play the game? The solution is to get him to play the game of the Soresu-user - and that means provoking, so the counter can be placed.

Because actively countering is the core principle of Form V, which was developed in response to the inherent passivity of the style.

IMHO in Form V, this is done by feinting, deceiving and luring the opponent to attack in a certain way. This is actually a lot harder to do than just provoking an attack. 

[Master Uilos]

Why do olympic fencers cling to the notion that they are still practicing a martial art? It's a sport, no more, no less.

So's boxing and MMA, but I still wouldn't mess with them in a fight

Also, while I appreciate the conversation, I suggest dropping the condescending tone you've just exhibited here. We're all nerds with glowsticks here.

[Master Althalus]

So's boxing and MMA, but I still wouldn't mess with them in a fight

Yes - and no. The difference lies in the threat. With fists (and feet) the threat of being hurt is still very real, even with gloves. With a sport-epée it is not.

I apologize, if my words came across wrong - English is not my native language.

I do respect sport fencers for their athletic achievements, reflexes, etc. - maybe I've just had enough discussions with them on HEMA-boards. Sorry.

[Master Uilos]

I have had the pleasure of working with both kinds of fighters, and in particular fencers. It's because of that that I can tell you honestly that a Shii Cho user can beat a Makashi user, and the Forms don't guarantee a win (note: it's the hands). What you're describing does tend to happen...to the amateurs. And by that I mean people who are working off the rhetoric and not adapting.

[Master Althalus]

It's because of that that I can tell you honestly that a Shii Cho user can beat a Makashi user, and the Forms don't guarantee a win

Wouldn't say otherwise. My system is loosely tied to the canonical forms, but I see Form I AND II as the base for all others. Learn the basics of two-handed, big movement fighting in Form I, add smaller, quicker movements one-handed in Form II and then explore the other forms as they emphasize certain aspects of fighting.

and not adapting

That's the important factor - one even the authors of the canonical novels saw, it seems. Every Jedi or Sith is adept in at least Forms I - V and knows how to switch between them in a fight. Adapting is the key to winning a fight.
But as I see it, every form has a certain range of tools in it. A kind of "grease" to make the switching easier. 

[Master Nero Attoru]

I tend to avoid claiming sport fencing as a martial art, but my point was that people seem to have huge misconceptions on just how far it is removed from those arts.  The core is still there, despite what classical fencers love to claim (nothing against them, I just know they tend to have some very particular thoughts about sport fencing).

As for the techniques I mentioned, they were all stressed during my training, and utilized by some of the best fencers in the US (who I trained with regularly in high school).  My team continues to compete against fencers of this level, and I can assure you that in most cases, especially where opponents are similarly skilled, complexity in defense is a necessity.  Epee in particular, having no right of way, relies on largely the same concepts as lightsaber combat (although obviously without the cutting element).

I take no offense of course, but you'll understand how I feel it necessary to correct statements that I find rather misleading or outright wrong when it comes to fencing.  You do make a good point about the Forms though - all of them have some element of defense inherent, while Soresu concentrates on defense as a concept and philosophy.

[Master Uilos]

New Post, this one on Ataru. All comments are helpful: https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/09/20/form-iv-ataru/

[Master Althalus]

You forgot Canne de Combat, which is closer than Capoeira (being a weapons-based martial sport). 

[Master Seblaise]

When i say that i practice canne de combat, people always tell me about Ataru ... but Maybe Master Uilos has other opinion

Just as an illustration, as demo in the street (i am not on the video ... it is made by the club of Schiltigeim)

So, Canne de Combat: Ataru or not Ataru? Intersting to have the opinion of a specialist of the 7 forms

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYXW3QsG1zs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYXW3QsG1zs</a>

[Master Uilos]

That's actually a good example. Yes.

[Master Seblaise]

That's actually a good example. Yes.

Cool ... i have my answer 

So, canne de combat can be considered like an Ataru style

[Master Uilos]

It can also be considered a very higher paced Makashi. Don't think of these in absolutes and one replaces the others. Research and blend different styles and you'll get closer to the idea.

[Master Medwyn]

Another great read, Master Uilos! +1 to get the hundred!