The Snark Side of the Force

[Lord Bladewraith]

My recommendation, and mostly how I learned fighting with two weapons, is to master the techniques with one hand first, then master the techniques with the other hand, then work on combining them.

The most common "mistake" I see when watching a lot of people fight with two weapons can best be seen watching the Anakin/Dooku fight in Attack of the Clones.  Anakin attacks with one saber at a time, meaning it's real easy to block one saber at a time. In my opinion, if you're not going to attack with both weapons at once, your best tactic is to fight defensively, blocking/parrying with one weapon to create an opening for the other.

Speaking of Master Artorius, I need to go find that video again...

That's a very fine point you make about attacking with one saber at a time, something I had not considered watching those movies. I've got to wonder how that strategy vs. the speed at which you could execute attacks even one hand at a time could overcome a single handed opponent.  This gives me a lot to put into practice.  Hmmmmm. 

[Master Uilos]

Well, the advantage of two weapons is that the opponent must now account for the position of two weapons working in concert. Unfortunatley, that's also the learning curve in training with two weapons as well.

The other problem with the Jar'Kai in the prequels was that Anakin, clearly, wasn't aiming for Dooku. The choreograph was focused squarely on them attacking each other's sabers. I have a stance that the Forms are not in the movies, and Nick Gillard has confirmed that. So the Jar'Kai we see there...is not in anyway based off of real application, only what looked interesting at the time.

[Lord Bladewraith]

Well, the advantage of two weapons is that the opponent must now account for the position of two weapons working in concert. Unfortunatley, that's also the learning curve in training with two weapons as well.

The other problem with the Jar'Kai in the prequels was that Anakin, clearly, wasn't aiming for Dooku. The choreograph was focused squarely on them attacking each other's sabers. I have a stance that the Forms are not in the movies, and Nick Gillard has confirmed that. So the Jar'Kai we see there...is not in anyway based off of real application, only what looked interesting at the time.

That's some cool insight, MU, sure gives some interesting perspective on realism in movies.  A shame really that they went for a "look" rather than "substance". I read somewhere, too, about proper sword fighting, with "manners", vs. barbarian "dirty" sword fighting where you'll notice the Jedi, similar to the Samurai, square off and introduce their swords to each other and wait for the other to be ready as well as use as not employing "dirty" tactics in the strikes. I probably didn't do it justice trying to describe the idea as I'm imagining it in my head, but hopefully I conveyed the basic concept I was thinking about.

+1 for more incredibly cool insight 🤔

[Master Uilos]

That's some cool insight, MU, sure gives some interesting perspective on realism in movies.  A shame really that they went for a "look" rather than "substance". I read somewhere, too, about proper sword fighting, with "manners", vs. barbarian "dirty" sword fighting where you'll notice the Jedi, similar to the Samurai, square off and introduce their swords to each other and wait for the other to be ready as well as use as not employing "dirty" tactics in the strikes. I probably didn't do it justice trying to describe the idea as I'm imagining it in my head, but hopefully I conveyed the basic concept I was thinking about.

+1 for more incredibly cool insight 🤔

There was a code of honor. Bushido, Chivalry, Code Duello, whatever have you. There are rules. And those do exist in the Star Wars universe. With the exception of Maul ambushing Qui Gon in the desert, and Finn shanking that one guy during the assault on Maz's palace, you always see this sequence of events:

- The opponents face off, and say something delcarative
- They present their arms. Both waiting for the blades to activate.
- The Fight itself.

It's a simple pattern, but nearly everyone in the movies follows it.

[Master Seblaise]

There was a code of honor. Bushido, Chivalry, Code Duello, whatever have you. There are rules. And those do exist in the Star Wars universe. With the exception of Maul ambushing Qui Gon in the desert, and Finn shanking that one guy during the assault on Maz's palace, you always see this sequence of events:

- The opponents face off, and say something delcarative
- They present their arms. Both waiting for the blades to activate.
- The Fight itself.

It's a simple pattern, but nearly everyone in the movies follows it.

You can add the fight between Luke and Vader in the DeathStar in the ROTJ. The emperor tells Luke about taking his saber to kill him using the DS. Luke takes his saber and Vader makes the parry ...

This fight also begins without warning

[Master Uilos]

Fair point, though that one always felt off because it's more Luke vs Palpatine with Vader acting as th Emperor's proxy.

[Master Seblaise]

Fair point, though that one always felt off because it's more Luke vs Palpatine with Vader acting as th Emperor's proxy.

Off Topic question:

Vader wants to kill the emperor and rules the Galaxy with his son (He tells that to his son later in the movie) ... So why does he make this Parry?? By letting Luke to kill the Emperor, he lets Luke complete his journey to the Dark Side and the Emperor is no more ... so he can rule the galaxy with his son ...

[wandering-seeker]

My bet would be because he was lying to Luke when he tried to recruit him.

[Vivectius]

Well, the advantage of two weapons is that the opponent must now account for the position of two weapons working in concert. Unfortunatley, that's also the learning curve in training with two weapons as well.

The other problem with the Jar'Kai in the prequels was that Anakin, clearly, wasn't aiming for Dooku. The choreograph was focused squarely on them attacking each other's sabers. I have a stance that the Forms are not in the movies, and Nick Gillard has confirmed that. So the Jar'Kai we see there...is not in anyway based off of real application, only what looked interesting at the time.

My opinion, based solely on my own experience, is that learning to fight with two sabers is harder than learning how to defend against two sabers.  Partially, I think, this is due to how many people don't have both weapons working together, they have two weapons working separately.  The Anakin/Dooku fight being an example of this (and why I always use that fight as a bad example of Jar'Kai).  Yes it was choreographed to be striking the opponents saber(s), but Anakin was still only using one weapon at a time.  This is why I dug up the old Master Artorius and Master Nero videos.  To show a good example of two blades moving and striking in concert, rather than right hand strike, then left hand strike.  I'm good with two sabers, but I would fare much, MUCH more poorly against either Master Artorius or Master Nero using Jar'Kai than I would against someone attacking with only one blade at a time.

Also Master Uilos, your post on Juyo was excellent.  I think you summed it up perfectly.

[Master Uilos]

More like Vader doesn't really know what he wants. He has decades of Palpatine in his head. Palpatine, who lives on the notion of "either way, I win". The Separatists win, I win as Sidious. Republic wins, I win as Emperor. Vader dies, I get Luke. Luke dies, I break Vader's rebellious streak.

Vader wants Luke, but he is also for lack of a better term, a Junkie to the dark side and Palps is his dealer. When Palpatine is blasting Luke with Lightning, Vader is standing there debating what side to take. He knows he'll never turn Luke now, and there is no more ambiguity between him and the Emperor. He makes the third choice: save his son because he wants to, and for no other reason. No domination, no conspiracy. Knowing he would die in the attempt. He sacrificed himself, as a Jedi would, to save his son.

[Master Seblaise]

My bet would be because he was lying to Luke when he tried to recruit him.

More like Vader doesn't really know what he wants. He has decades of Palpatine in his head. Palpatine, who lives on the notion of "either way, I win". The Separatists win, I win as Sidious. Republic wins, I win as Emperor. Vader dies, I get Luke. Luke dies, I break Vader's rebellious streak.

Vader wants Luke, but he is also for lack of a better term, a Junkie to the dark side and Palps is his dealer. When Palpatine is blasting Luke with Lightning, Vader is standing there debating what side to take. He knows he'll never turn Luke now, and there is no more ambiguity between him and the Emperor. He makes the third choice: save his son because he wants to, and for no other reason. No domination, no conspiracy. Knowing he would die in the attempt. He sacrificed himself, as a Jedi would, to save his son.

Thanks for your opinions and your off topic answers to my off topic question

i also think that Vader is lost since he understood that Luke will not come to the Dark Side (maybe because to much chocolate in cookies )

[wandering-seeker]

(maybe because to much chocolate in cookies )

Whoa there friend, you're getting dangerously close to heresy there! There is no such thing as too much chocolate for a cookie.

[Master Seblaise]

Whoa there friend, you're getting dangerously close to heresy there! There is no such thing as too much chocolate for a cookie.

 

[Master Uilos]

Last post of the year, my final notes and thoughts on Niman and Juyo, based on conversations with variou people in the community https://thesnarksideoftheforce.wordpress.com/2016/12/01/nimanjuyo-the-masters-arts/

[wandering-seeker]

YAY Juyo! Really glad to read what you have to say about the art. It really sounds very familiar to me, coming from my old martial arts school where we focused on total victory. The teacher was fond of saying the fight doesn't end until the other guy never gets up again. The whole focus of our training was to do as much(preferably lethal) damage as quickly as possible. Unless I am misunderstanding the total victory side of Juyo, the school and form are very similar in their philosophy and doctrine.